R+L=J v 150

[MtnLion]

But again how are they good Kingsguard? They failed to protect anybody.

But, they were observing their vow.  The same vow that Jaime failed at, when he protected the people of King's Landing. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

But again how are they good Kingsguard? They failed to protect anybody.

The protected the person they were charged to protect. The KG were ordered to stay at ToJ. They were following those orders. Aerys, Aegon and Rhaenys seemed safe in the Red Keep and Jaime was a KG protecting the King. Ned is not going to hold them responsible for things they literally could not have done -- i.e., they could not have protected those other royals because they were ordered to stay at ToJ -- and the KG duty to guard the King was supposed to be done by Jaime. Ned is not going to hold these three responsible for Jaime's crime.

 

They did their duty. They stayed at ToJ when the were ordered to do so. When they learned that the other royals were dead, they protected the person they considered to be the heir to the throne -- Jon. So while they certainly would have tried to protect the other royals if they had been there -- they are not held responsible by proxy for others' failures and they are not expected to be in more than one place at a time.

[Avalatis]

So no one is willing to discuss Barristan? I think he demonstrates perfectly what a good loyal Kingsguard would do. I feel what he demonstrated after Robert died puts a nail in the "obey" reasons for why the Kingsguard remained and didn't go to Viserys.

 

They were likely there on orders to begin with. But with the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys such an oath or "order" wouldn't be sufficient. Unless they valued this new oath more than their Kingsguard vows which would be hard to believe with Hightower.

[The Khal Who Rode West]

Is Barristan a failed KG then? His King ordered him to stand aside when he attacked the boar, and died. Barristan did not protect him, because his king had given him specific orders.

Who is to say that someone with authority (Aerys, or due to earlier orders from Aerys, perhaps Rhaegar) did not order the three KG away from the King (Aerys)?

Which comes back to my point. If the assertion is that Ned respects the three because they were Kingsguards who did what they were supposed to do i.e protect their king, then he respects them for having failed to protect 4 other people that they should have first before Jon ever could have been king.

Saying that they died protecting their king is only possible because they first let everyone else die and let someone else steal the throne while they were gone not protecting their king. It would be like hypothetically saying that Arys is a great Kingsguard because he was with Myrcelle and she became Queen because Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen all died first. You essentially just happened to have gotten lucky that you are currently with the monarch, but they're only the monarch because everyone else you shouldn't have let die died first. Are you good at your job when you're only finally doing your job because huge amounts of circumstance happened to first let you now do your job?

Which is why I have a problem believing that Ned would respect the three for being Kingsguards instead of just being knights/men worthy of respect (which is what he calls Arthur - a great knight, not great Kingsguard). Which if you read the TOJ dream that interpretation reads much better in my opinion. Ned constantly wonders why they weren't where they were supposed to be. He calls them out as having failed to protect the people that they should have. Whether Jon is king or not and they died protecting him, it's a case of that they didn't protect everybody else that they should have first. Ned upon finding 3 day old Jon or whatever would think that they were terrible Kingsguard that they were here defending nobody (as Jon wouldn't have been born yet) while Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, and Rhaenys died, and Viserys, Rhaella, and Dany had to flee in exile as the royalists lost the war. They weren't doing anything that could have helped their monarchy until Ned arrived.

I think he might respect them for finally doing their job and trying to protect Jon, but I think he'd probably still be wondering how they could have let it come to the fact that Jon would be king at all.

[Ygrain]

Again you assume that fulfilling their first duty is the motivation behind Hightower, Dayne, and Whent's action. As you allude to in your last sentence, we now have evidence which points towards that not being the case. If the Kingsguard knows of Aerys's action making Viserys his heir over Aegon, then these three men's decision not to send one of their number to Dragonstone means that is absolutely not their motivation. Or rather they have interpreted their first duty in a way that ignores the King's command. So, if they know of Aerys's decree, they are either ignoring it in favor of another vow, or they are making a decision to decide themselves who is the rightful king - again ignoring Aerys's command. Whichever way you want to slice this it calls into question your assumption of the motivations of the three. We have to consider different motives than just the stock ones that have been repeated for years.

"Kingsguard doesn't flee because we swore a vow" hasn't changed in any way, so regardless of any presumed succession swaps, they perceive their actions as in concord with their KG vow. And, even if they decided to ignore Aerys' decree (provided they knew about it in the first place), they are only supporting the customary succession, first son's son before a sibling. Nothing really treacherous in that, especially as Aerys never knew of Jon's existence and thus couldn't nullify his claim.

 

 

Let's assume, however, that they did not know about the decree. We are still making an assumption that the three men are making their decision based on Jon's legitimacy and his claim for the throne. Remember the three men's actions is supposed to be, under this theory, evidence that points to Jon's legitimacy - NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. The only reason to do that is based on Ned's view of the three. We have to decide before hand that these men act the way they do because they would follow the need to fulfill their first duty before all else. We do so based largely on Ned's view of them as "shining examples" and his view of Ser Arthur as the "best knight" he ever knew. The honorable Lord Eddard Stark would only say such things about men who strictly held to their vows. Or perhaps not.

It doesn't really take Ned Stark to tell if someone is following their duty or not.

 

Besides, it's not just Ned - multiple characters state on multiple occasions that the KG's purpose is to protect the king and die for him if need be. The KG trio put a great emphasy on being Kingsguard, which makes zero sense if they are not fulfilling their purpose.

 

 

As I think I show in the last half of part four of my essay, Ned's view of honor is not so tied to following the letter of vows when it conflicts with doing what is right. I think the key here is what Ned's thinks was right for these men to do. I don't think it is clear whether it was motivated by guarding their king, or guarding innocents who he loved, or both, or something else, and in someways is unimportant to understanding Ned. The effect was the same. They died protecting Lyanna, and probably Jon, from the danger they saw in Ned taking them. This guilt-inducing fact mixes with admiration for their self sacrifice, and sears the images of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent into his memory to the point he is still dreaming of their faces from their combat some fifteen years after the fact. It is their sacrifice to protect Lyanna that forms his view of the three, not just the fact they did or did not do their first duty in the way we read their oaths to mean.

Nice theorizing but rather irrelevant as you seem to approach the points one by one and not consider them together. Ned's dream accentuates certain aspects of the encounter with the KG, and they insist that they are at ToJ on behalf of their sworn duty, and that it is the sworn KG duty that forces them to fight Ned. They proclaim themselves Kingsguard, not Lyannasguard.

 

 

This lack of clarity is important, however, in our trying to understand why the three fought and died where they did. Without the assumption of Jon's legitimacy, we can see these men's motives in many perspectives, and it may be that the motives of the three differ from one another. Because they all think Jon is the rightful heir, because they have decided Jon is the better heir than Viserys, because they honor their dead prince's command to guard Lyanna and perhaps her child, or because they choose to not abandon innocents to a fate they think Ned represents - or perhaps other motivations - are all things we must, I think, consider.

Those two would be valid explanations for staying on behalf of a KG duty. The rest, not really.

 

 

Lastly let me deal with Jaime's view of Hightower and his words to him at Rickard's and Brandon's executions. I've no doubt Jaime views Hightower with some anger. He has abandoned him to his duty to guard a mad king. It should be Hightower making these decisions a young seventeen year old boy is forced to make. So, when we read Jaime's statement about Hightower telling him not to judge Aerys we should view it through his bias. I think Hightower, like all Martin's characters, is probably much more complex in his thinking than Jaime's memory tells us. I've no doubt he was devoted to his duty, but whether his duties and experiences force him to deal with tough choices in a variety of ways remains to be seen.

Jaime is undoubtedly bitter towards Hightower, but I don't think this necessarily means that Hightower is something else than has been presented. Blindly obedient men, even honourable men, are not any artificial construct and exist both in RL and in literature - remember Denethor's servants who were carrying out his orders that would have led to Faramir's death?

 

As for doing what's right and doing one's duty, let me go back again to teaching.

 

Let's say that class A went for a trip far away from school and three teachers were assigned to oversee the kids. Let's say that class B is also on a trip and its assigned teachers are unavailable (dead, in hospital, whatever) and the rest of the school staff cannot reach them. What must the teachers from class A do when they learn about this? Split and send one of them to class B ASAP because the kids must not be left alone. Presence of other adult persons who might take care of them is insufficient beccause the teachers cannot relegate their duty to others. Danger to class A does not relieve them from seeing to that class B is safe, either. Stopping on their way to help victims of a car accident again means that the duty to class B is unfulfilled.

 

Whichever way you turn it, the teacher who doesn't go to class B is in dereliction of duty. S/he may have good reasons, but the principal is not going to be happy about it because the teacher failed their duty, and if anything happens to class B, it is their fault. A duty is a binary state - either you are doing it, or not. If you are not doing it, you can't go around boasting about your job.

[Ygrain]

So no one is willing to discuss Barristan? I think he demonstrates perfectly what a good loyal Kingsguard would do. I feel what he demonstrated after Robert died puts a nail in the "obey" reasons for why the Kingsguard remained and didn't go to Viserys.

 

They were likely there on orders to begin with. But with the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys such an oath or "order" wouldn't be sufficient. Unless they valued this new oath more than their Kingsguard vows which would be hard to believe with Hightower.

And if they had a new oath, they wouldn't state that the reason for not fleeing is being KG.

[The Khal Who Rode West]

So no one is willing to discuss Barristan? I think he demonstrates perfectly what a good loyal Kingsguard would do. I feel what he demonstrated after Robert died puts a nail in the "obey" reasons for why the Kingsguard remained and didn't go to Viserys.
 
They were likely there on orders to begin with. But with the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys such an oath or "order" wouldn't be sufficient. Unless they valued this new oath more than their Kingsguard vows which would be hard to believe with Hightower.

I think you seem to be confused about what Barristan did and didn't do upon Robert's death.

Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in white cloak and enameled scales. "My lords," he said, "my place is beside the young king now. Pray give me leave to attend him."
"Your place is here, Ser Barristan," Ned told him.

Barristan obeyed orders. Ned summoned him and told him to stay away from Joffrey when Barristan wanted to be by Joffrey's side and Barristan obeyed. He thought it was more important to obey an order than to be by his king's side.

Which is something that Barristan continually does

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides.
If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have had no choice but to obey. But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard even for herself nor issued any commands in respect to her consort. The world was simpler when I had a lord commander to decide such matters, Selmy reflected. Now I am the lord commander, and it is hard to know which path is right.

Barristan says that the first duty of a Kingsguard is to protect their king, but that if Dany told him to protect Hizdahr he would have to do so. Seeing as Dany only has the one Kingsguard that would mean that protecting Hizdahr would mean not protecting Dany his Queen and possibly putting her in danger.

Ser Barristan seemed old beyond his years. I have failed my sacred trust.
Even the truest knight cannot protect a king against himself, Ned said. Robert loved to hunt boar. I have seen him take a thousand of them. He would stand his ground without flinching, his legs braced, the great spear in his hands, and as often as not he would curse the boar as it charged, and wait until the last possible second, until it was almost on him, before he killed it with a single sure and savage thrust. No one could know this one would be his death.
You are kind to say so, Lord Eddard.
The king himself said as much. He blamed the wine.
The white-haired knight gave a weary nod. His Grace was reeling in his saddle by the time we flushed the boar from his lair, yet he commanded us all to stand aside.

Barristan knew that Robert was too drunk to be taking on a boar, yet he obeyed Robert's command to stand aside even though that would be putting Robert in danger.

Again and again, Barristan chooses obey over protect.

[Avalatis]

And if they had a new oath, they wouldn't state that the reason for not fleeing is being KG.

 

I agree. Though some people like Lord Vary's thinks the wording is just the fever dream and might not be the actual exchange.

[Avalatis]

I think you seem to be confused about what Barristan did and didn't do upon Robert's death.


Barristan obeyed orders. Ned summoned him and told him to stay away from Joffrey when Barristan wanted to be by Joffrey's side and Barristan obeyed. He thought it was more important to obey an order than to be by his king's side.

 

That scene if I recall (I don't have the book with me) is before Robert died. Regardless you are ignoring that Barristan was with Joffery. And when delivered "orders/will" of King Robert which was his dying wish it stated that Ned was the Protector of the Realm and Regent of the heir; Barristan supported the apparent King (who wasn't crowned) and not the orders. The clear priority of the Kingsguard shows what is going on there.

 

My post states quite clearly that the Kingsguard follow orders. It seems you are pretending as if I'm stating the Kingsguard do not follow orders and that is not what this discussion is about. That is a strawman. The debate is after Aerys and Rhaegar died would the Kingsguard follow orders over going to their new King. Team "Obey" suggest that they would. Where we have a clear example of a Kingsguard not doing that.

 

 

Which is something that Barristan continually does


Barristan says that the first duty of a Kingsguard is to protect their king, but that if Dany told him to protect Hizdahr he would have to do so. Seeing as Dany only has the one Kingsguard that would mean that protecting Hizdahr would mean not protecting Dany his Queen and possibly putting her in danger.


Barristan knew that Robert was too drunk to be taking on a boar, yet he obeyed Robert's command to stand aside even though that would be putting Robert in danger.

Again and again, Barristan chooses obey over protect.

 

We are talking about the event of a new King. There is no argument about following orders. You obviously do not know what the "obey" vs. "protect" argument is about.

[BearQueen87]

But again how are they good Kingsguard? They failed to protect anybody.

 

 

Only because of Howland Reed's magical frog.

 

On a more serious note, yes they "failed" to protect baby boy Jon, but it's the attempt that matters. That they so willingly went to their deaths in order to keep their vows. The KG do not flee. They swore a vow....

[BearQueen87]

 

I agree. Though some people like Lord Vary's thinks the wording is just the fever dream and might not be the actual exchange.

 

It might not be the actual exchange but Ned's subconscious remembers the KG this way--as men who pound their chests and declare that "We! Are! Kingsguard! We! Do! Not! Flee! We! Swore! A! Vow!" The actual exchange almost doesn't matter because Ned's remembrance of them clues the reader in to what was going.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Which comes back to my point. If the assertion is that Ned respects the three because they were Kingsguards who did what they were supposed to do i.e protect their king, then he respects them for having failed to protect 4 other people that they should have first before Jon ever could have been king.

Saying that they died protecting their king is only possible because they first let everyone else die and let someone else steal the throne while they were gone not protecting their king. It would be like hypothetically saying that Arys is a great Kingsguard because he was with Myrcelle and she became Queen because Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen all died first. You essentially just happened to have gotten lucky that you are currently with the monarch, but they're only the monarch because everyone else you shouldn't have let die died first. Are you good at your job when you're only finally doing your job because huge amounts of circumstance happened to first let you now do your job?

Which is why I have a problem believing that Ned would respect the three for being Kingsguards instead of just being knights/men worthy of respect (which is what he calls Arthur - a great knight, not great Kingsguard). Which if you read the TOJ dream that interpretation reads much better in my opinion. Ned constantly wonders why they weren't where they were supposed to be. He calls them out as having failed to protect the people that they should have. Whether Jon is king or not and they died protecting him, it's a case of that they didn't protect everybody else that they should have first. Ned upon finding 3 day old Jon or whatever would think that they were terrible Kingsguard that they were here defending nobody (as Jon wouldn't have been born yet) while Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, and Rhaenys died, and Viserys, Rhaella, and Dany had to flee in exile as the royalists lost the war. They weren't doing anything that could have helped their monarchy until Ned arrived.

I think he might respect them for finally doing their job and trying to protect Jon, but I think he'd probably still be wondering how they could have let it come to the fact that Jon would be king at all.

You keep ignoring the point that Ned is not going to blame these KG for the deaths that happened far from where they were. Just as Arys would not be blamed for the deaths of Robert, Joffrey or Tommen if he was fulfilling his duties to be with Myrcella at the time. The 3 KG simply are not responsible for things they could not be part of -- as they were properly following orders to stay at ToJ which prevented them being with the other royals to protect them. The KG were behaving properly by staying at ToJ. They don't have "collective guilt" for the actions of Jaime. Even though their "primary" duty is to guard the King, when they are ordered to do other things (as long as at least 1 KG is left behind to guard the King or they are specifically ordered by the King to leave him alone), they are expected to do those other things at that time.

 

But the real question -- and the reason Ned honors them -- is what they do after they learn of those deaths. The "easy" thing to do would have been to recognize Robert as the new King and pledge loyalty to him. If they had done that, presumably, they would have lived and perhaps even remained KG with Robert. But they choose to follow their vows -- to protect the heir to the throne of the dynasty they are pledged to protect. They give up their lives protecting that heir. It is in that context that Ned believes them to have acted honorably in keeping their vows. They never broke their vows (they had no obligation to be with Aerys -- they were properly ordered to stay at ToJ). They did not take the "easy way out" when their side lost the war. The fought to the end to uphold their KG vows.

So it is not about being "lucky" to be left with the surviving heir. In this case, they had an arguably difficult choice to make -- whether to protect Jon as the heir -- or to "bend the knee" and not risk their lives. They choice the difficult way -- the way that upheld their personal view of what their vows represented. And Ned understands and honors this choice.

[IceFire125]

This was brought up before in previous versions a while back, but I keep on coming back to this.  It's like Martin was telling us, as he set up Jon's royal origin as anything but a fairy tale.  It was dark, full of tragedy, grief, 'disgrace and desolation'.

 

The old man laid a withered, spotted hand on his shoulder. “It hurts, boy,” he said softly. “Oh, yes. Choosing … it has always hurt. And always will. I know.”

“You don’t know,” Jon said bitterly. “No one knows. Even if I am his bastard, he’s still my father (Rhaegar)…”

“…My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son (Rhaegar), and even the little children …”

 

**Martin's portrayal of Aemon's grief was on purpose to convey the helpless feeling, just as Jon, who was literally "a suckling babe" when "the ruin" of his house happened.  I love how Martin placed those italics for us, astute and careful readers.  :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So no one is willing to discuss Barristan? I think he demonstrates perfectly what a good loyal Kingsguard would do. I feel what he demonstrated after Robert died puts a nail in the "obey" reasons for why the Kingsguard remained and didn't go to Viserys.
 
They were likely there on orders to begin with. But with the deaths of Rhaegar and Aerys such an oath or "order" wouldn't be sufficient. Unless they valued this new oath more than their Kingsguard vows which would be hard to believe with Hightower.

More than happy to discuss, but I'm not in the position to go hunting for quotes.

Happy to discuss all those that I can either remember, or are being posted, though :)

Which comes back to my point. If the assertion is that Ned respects the three because they were Kingsguards who did what they were supposed to do i.e protect their king, then he respects them for having failed to protect 4 other people that they should have first before Jon ever could have been king.

Saying that they died protecting their king is only possible because they first let everyone else die and let someone else steal the throne while they were gone not protecting their king. It would be like hypothetically saying that Arys is a great Kingsguard because he was with Myrcelle and she became Queen because Robert, Joffrey, and Tommen all died first. You essentially just happened to have gotten lucky that you are currently with the monarch, but they're only the monarch because everyone else you shouldn't have let die died first. Are you good at your job when you're only finally doing your job because huge amounts of circumstance happened to first let you now do your job?

Which is why I have a problem believing that Ned would respect the three for being Kingsguards instead of just being knights/men worthy of respect (which is what he calls Arthur - a great knight, not great Kingsguard). Which if you read the TOJ dream that interpretation reads much better in my opinion. Ned constantly wonders why they weren't where they were supposed to be. He calls them out as having failed to protect the people that they should have. Whether Jon is king or not and they died protecting him, it's a case of that they didn't protect everybody else that they should have first. Ned upon finding 3 day old Jon or whatever would think that they were terrible Kingsguard that they were here defending nobody (as Jon wouldn't have been born yet) while Aerys, Rhaegar, Aegon, and Rhaenys died, and Viserys, Rhaella, and Dany had to flee in exile as the royalists lost the war. They weren't doing anything that could have helped their monarchy until Ned arrived.

I think he might respect them for finally doing their job and trying to protect Jon, but I think he'd probably still be wondering how they could have let it come to the fact that Jon would be king at all.

First, I never said they remained at the tower because they believed their kimg was inside. That was not me.

Second, you missed my point.

If the KG are ordered by the King to stand aside, they have to obey. If Aerys had ordered them to go to ToJ, or if Aerys had ordered them to obey Rhaegar, who ordered them to remain at ToJ, and the order was given, they needed to remain. That Aerys is killed when he has them ordered out of his presence, is not the fault of the KG, I think.

Arys was ordered to go to Sunspear.. he cannot be blamed for Joffrey's death. He was following his orders, despite it meaning leaving the King's side. Had the King ordered him back, however, he would have needed to obey that order.

So the fact that Aerys died, and Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia (who did not automatically would have had Kingsguard protection) died as well, would not have been their fault, if they had been following the orders their authority had given them - just like Arys had been doing in Dorne.

The fact that Viserys was Aerys' heir, yet the three KG knights refer to their KG vow when explaining why they are not with Viserys, shows that something was going on at that tower.. they would bot have been at that tower, apparently waiting, while no one or nothing else was there. That should draw attention, that their KG vows made them remain at the tower, and not go to Viserys, and that Ned apparently still finds them respectful enough to burry them.

[The Khal Who Rode West]

 
That scene if I recall (I don't have the book with me) is before Robert died. Regardless you are ignoring that Barristan was with Joffery. And when delivered "orders/will" of King Robert which was his dying wish it stated that Ned was the Protector of the Realm and Regent of the heir; Barristan supported the apparent King (who wasn't crowned) and not the orders. The clear priority of the Kingsguard shows what is going on there.
 
My post states quite clearly that the Kingsguard follow orders. It seems you are pretending as if I'm stating the Kingsguard do not follow orders and that is not what this discussion is about. That is a strawman. The debate is after Aerys and Rhaegar died would the Kingsguard follow orders over going to their new King. Team "Obey" suggest that they would. Where we have a clear example of a Kingsguard not doing that.

Literally here is the passages.

It was an hour later when Grand Maester Pycelle came to Eddard Stark in his solar. His shoulders slumped, as if the weight of the great maesters chain around his neck had become too great to bear. My lord, he said, King Robert is gone. The gods give him rest.
No, Ned answered. He hated rest. The gods give him love and laughter, and the joy of righteous battle. It was strange how empty he felt. He had been expecting the visit, and yet with those words, something died within him. He would have given all his titles for the freedom to weep... but he was Roberts Hand, and the hour he dreaded had come. Be so good as to summon
the members of the council here to my solar, he told Pycelle. The Tower of the Hand was as secure as he and Tomard could make it; he could not say the same for the council chambers.
My lord? Pycelle blinked. Surely the affairs of the kingdom will keep till the morrow, when our grief is not so fresh.
Ned was quiet but firm. I fear we must convene at once.
Pycelle bowed. As the Hand commands. He called his servants and sent them running, then gratefully accepted Neds offer of a chair and a cup of sweet beer.
Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in white cloak and enameled scales. My lords, he said, my place is beside the young king now. Pray give me leave to attend him.
Your place is here, Ser Barristan, Ned told him.
Littlefinger came next, still garbed in the blue velvets and silver mockingbird cape he had worn the night previous, his boots dusty from riding. My lords, he said, smiling at nothing in particular before he turned to Ned. That little task you set me is accomplished, Lord Eddard.
Varys entered in a wash of lavender, pink from his bath, his plump face scrubbed and freshly powdered, his soft slippers all but soundless. The little birds sing a grievous song today, he said as he seated himself. The realm weeps. Shall we begin?
When Lord Renly arrives, Ned said.
Varys gave him a sorrowful look. I fear Lord Renly has left the city.
Left the city? Ned had counted on Renlys support.
He took his leave through a postern gate an hour before dawn, accompanied by Ser Loras Tyrell and some fifty retainers, Varys told them. When last seen, they were galloping south in some haste, no doubt bound for Storms End or Highgarden.
So much for Renly and his hundred swords. Ned did not like the smell of that, but there was nothing to be done for it. He drew out Roberts last letter. The king called me to his side last night and commanded me to record his final words. Lord Renly and Grand Maester Pycelle stood witness as Robert sealed the letter, to be opened by the council after his death. Ser Barristan, if you would be so kind?
The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard examined the paper. King Roberts seal, and unbroken. He opened the letter and read. Lord Eddard Stark is herein named Protector of the Realm, to rule as regent until the heir comes of age.

Barristan was not with his king. Robert died and Ned immediately summoned the council and Barristan arrived and said he should be with Joffrey as Joffrey was now king. Not that he was with Joffrey before, and even if he was he would have been there while Robert was still king as Robert had only just died. And regardless upon knowing that Robert is dead and Joffrey should be his king, and before knowing that Ned is Regent, Barristan chooses to obey Ned over going to see Joffrey. Barristan did not go to his king like you are saying he did.

Secondly, Barristan did not pick Joffrey's side like you say he did despite knowing that Eddard was Regent.

Ned produced Roberts letter. Lord Varys, be so kind as to show this to my lady of Lannister.
The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. Protector of the Realm, she read. Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper? She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.
Those were the kings words, Ser Barristan said, shocked.
We have a new king now, Cersei Lannister replied. Lord Eddard, when last we spoke, you gave me some counsel. Allow me to return the courtesy. Bend the knee, my lord. Bend the knee and swear fealty to my son, and we shall allow you to step down as Hand and live out your days in the grey waste you call home.
Would that I could, Ned said grimly. If she was so determined to force the issue here and now, she left him no choice. Your son has no claim to the throne he sits. Lord Stannis is Roberts true heir.
Liar! Joffrey screamed, his face reddening.
Mother, what does he mean? Princess Myrcella asked the queen plaintively. Isnt Joff the king now?
You condemn yourself with your own mouth, Lord Stark, said Cersei Lannister. Ser Barristan, seize this traitor.
The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard hesitated. In the blink of an eye he was surrounded by Stark guardsmen, bare steel in their mailed fists.

Barristan was told to arrest Ned and he didn't follow that order before Ned's men surrounded him.

So no, Barristan is not the "nail in the coffin" that ends the obey vs protect debate.

[The Khal Who Rode West]

[quote]I looked for you on the Trident, Ned said to them. We were not there, Ser Gerold answered. Woe to the Usurper if we had been, said Ser Oswell. When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were. Far away, Ser Gerold said, or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells. I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege, Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them. Our knees do not bend easily, said Ser Arthur Dayne. Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.[/quote] Ned clearly does have a problem with the Kingsguard being at the tower. He tells them that they weren't at the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, or Dragonstone when those were all the places that they should have been. He calls them out for being at this tower instead of everywhere else that they should have been. So I really don't understand the argument that Ned wouldn't blame the Kingsguard for being at the tower when half of the dream is Ned telling them that they weren't at the places that they should have been all war. He doesn't agree that they're there at all.

And now it begins, said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light. No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

He knows that they've done no good all war and that this confrontation is pointless as by now there's no point as they missed all the chances to actually have made an impact. It's not a case of they're doing their duty now for Ned it's a case of they already missed their chance to do it.

[Avalatis]

Literally here is the passages.


Barristan was not with his king. Robert died and Ned immediately summoned the council and Barristan arrived and said he should be with Joffrey as Joffrey was now king. Not that he was with Joffrey before, and even if he was he would have been there while Robert was still king as Robert had only just died. And regardless upon knowing that Robert is dead and Joffrey should be his king, and before knowing that Ned is Regent, Barristan chooses to obey Ned over going to see Joffrey. Barristan did not go to his king like you are saying he did.
 

 

Thank you for supplying the passage. It doesn't contradict him being with the new King. It actually seems that Barristan just came from guarding his "King". And he probably had the other Kingsguard with Joffery at that point. His suggestion was that "currently" he was not with the King and he felt he needed to be there.

 

You have no evidence he didn't go to the King. On top of that you have no evidence that he didn't have Kingsguard immediately sent to Joffery. Considering Barristan makes it cleary he thinks this is a high priority you are most definitely wrong. The Lord Commander traditionally goes to the small council meetings so it is not odd for him to appear there. His dialogue suggests he wishes to be excused to attend the King, the Hand of the King states his place was there. If Barristan has already ensured the security of Joffery, there is no problem with him being at that meeting in his eyes.

 

 

Secondly, Barristan did not pick Joffrey's side like you say he did despite knowing that Eddard was Regent.

 

You have the book. Did Barristan not read the will? Didn't Ned pick him to read it since he was so honorable? Or is this just the show messing with my memory of events there.

 

 

Barristan was told to arrest Ned and he didn't follow that order before Ned's men surrounded him.

So no, Barristan is not the "nail in the coffin" that ends the obey vs protect debate.

 

That is just bullshit. Barristan was going to go down there and single handedly cut through Ned's men? He was formed up in front of Joffery and taking Joffery's orders. Which means the orders of a dead King/Prince are not going to supersede his loyalty to the new King.

 

This reflects on the 3 Kingsguard at the tower. No amount of obeying of Rhaegar would make them stay at that tower instead of going to their new King.

[MtnLion]

I agree. Though some people like Lord Vary's thinks the wording is just the fever dream and might not be the actual exchange.

Actual exchange or not, the entire sequence absolutely must make sense to Ned.  We can only interpret the conversation correctly if we understand Ned's point of view.  Arguments against the meaning of the words, fall apart quickly without support from Ned's POV.  Take the meaning for vow, as I consistently point out, and is consistently ignored, Ned tells us what the vow is, in his own words.  There is no other vow from his point of view, thus it means exactly what Ned states to Robert, "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own."

[Avalatis]

More than happy to discuss, but I'm not in the position to go hunting for quotes.

Happy to discuss all those that I can either remember, or are being posted, though :)

 

Of what you remember of Barristan and the shift from Robert to Joffery, Barristan seemed to form up immediately around Joffery who was not crowned. I believe (though my memory maybe wrong on this) that Barristan read the will and still sided with his new King Joffery.

 

Does Barristan's actions give us a clue of at least what Hightower's actions/reasons were?

[Avalatis]

Actual exchange or not, the entire sequence absolutely must make sense to Ned.  We can only interpret the conversation correctly if we understand Ned's point of view.  Arguments against the meaning of the words, fall apart quickly without support from Ned's POV.  Take the meaning for vow, as I consistently point out, and is consistently ignored, Ned tells us what the vow is, in his own words.  There is no other vow from his point of view, thus it means exactly what Ned states to Robert, "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own."

 

I 100% agree with you. I was just explaining why I wasn't referencing the TOJ exchange in my argument as it ultimately devolves into "well the dream was just a fever dream".