R+L=J v 150

[UnmaskedLurker]

Ned clearly does have a problem with the Kingsguard being at the tower. He tells them that they weren't at the Trident, King's Landing, Storm's End, or Dragonstone when those were all the places that they should have been. He calls them out for being at this tower instead of everywhere else that they should have been. So I really don't understand the argument that Ned wouldn't blame the Kingsguard for being at the tower when half of the dream is Ned telling them that they weren't at the places that they should have been all war. He doesn't agree that they're there at all.

 

He knows that they've done no good all war and that this confrontation is pointless as by now there's no point as they missed all the chances to actually have made an impact. It's not a case of they're doing their duty now for Ned it's a case of they already missed their chance to do it.

 

I totally disagree. You have to consider the order of events. At the time Ned is asking them about why they were not at the other locations -- he has no idea why they are at ToJ. He is trying to find out. If it turned out that he later found out they were at ToJ hiding from their duties, he would think poorly of them. But he finds out after they are dead that they chose to stay and defend the person they believed to be the heir -- at great risk to themselves. That is why he honors them. Anything he says before he learns from Lyanna what really happens cannot be used to indicate Ned's ultimate state of mind regarding how he thinks of the KG. The confrontation is not pointless -- it is the only way they can uphold their duty to defend the rightful heir.

[The Khal Who Rode West]

 
Thank you for supplying the passage. It doesn't contradict him being with the new King. It actually seems that Barristan just came from guarding his "King". And he probably had the other Kingsguard with Joffery at that point. His suggestion was that "currently" he was not with the King and he felt he needed to be there.
 
You have no evidence he didn't go to the King. On top of that you have no evidence that he didn't have Kingsguard immediately sent to Joffery. Considering Barristan makes it cleary he thinks this is a high priority you are most definitely wrong. The Lord Commander traditionally goes to the small council meetings so it is not odd for him to appear there. His dialogue suggests he wishes to be excused to attend the King, the Hand of the King states his place was there. If Barristan has already ensured the security of Joffery, there is no problem with him being at that meeting in his eyes.
 
 
You have the book. Did Barristan not read the will? Didn't Ned pick him to read it since he was so honorable? Or is this just the show messing with my memory of events there.
 
 
That is just bullshit. Barristan was going to go down there and single handedly cut through Ned's men? He was formed up in front of Joffery and taking Joffery's orders.

That's the show. Barristan isn't with Joffrey when Ned confronts Cersei. He was with Ned as they both just came from their council.

Here's the whole confrontation but I'll put it in spoilers so that it doesn't take up so much space
[spoiler]

The door opened. Fat Tom stepped into the solar. Pardon, my lords, the kings steward insists...
The royal steward entered and bowed. Esteemed lords, the king demands the immediate presence of his small council in the throne room.
Ned had expected Cersei to strike quickly; the summons came as no surprise. The king is dead, he said, but we shall go with you nonetheless. Tom, assemble an escort, if you would.
Littlefinger gave Ned his arm to help him down the steps. Varys, Pycelle, and Ser Barristan followed close behind. A double column of men-at-arms in chainmail and steel helms was waiting outside the tower, eight strong. Grey cloaks snapped in the wind as the guardsmen marched them across the yard. There was no Lannister crimson to be seen, but Ned was reassured by the number of gold cloaks visible on the ramparts and at the gates.
Janos Slynt met them at the door to the throne room, armored in ornate black-and-gold plate, with a high-crested helm under one arm. The Commander bowed stiffly. His men pushed open the great oaken doors, twenty feet tall and banded with bronze.
The royal steward led them in. All hail His Grace, Joffrey of the Houses Baratheon and Lannister, the First of his Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, he sang out.
It was a long walk to the far end of the hall, where Joffrey waited atop the Iron Throne. Supported by Littlefinger, Ned Stark slowly limped and hopped toward the boy who called himself king. The others followed. The first time he had come this way, he had been on horseback, sword in hand, and the Targaryen dragons had watched from the walls as he forced Jaime Lannister down from the throne. He wondered if Joffrey would step down quite so easily.
Five knights of the Kingsguard-all but Ser Jaime and Ser Barristan-were arrayed in a crescent around the base of the throne. They were in full armor, enameled steel from helm to heel, long pale cloaks over their shoulders, shining white shields strapped to their left arms. Cersei Lannister and her two younger children stood behind Ser Boros and Ser Meryn. The queen wore a gown of sea-green silk, trimmed with Myrish lace as pale as foam. On her finger was a golden ring with an emerald the size of a pigeons egg, on her head a matching tiara.
Above them, Prince Joffrey sat amidst the barbs and spikes in a cloth-of-gold doublet and a red satin cape. Sandor Clegane was stationed at the foot of the thrones steep narrow stair. He wore mail and soot-grey plate and his snarling dogs-head helm.
Behind the throne, twenty Lannister guardsmen waited with longswords hanging from their belts. Crimson cloaks draped their shoulders and steel lions crested their helms. But Littlefinger had kept his promise; all along the walls, in front of Roberts tapestries with their scenes of hunt and battle, the gold-cloaked ranks of the City Watch stood stiffly to attention, each mans hand clasped around the haft of an eight-foot-long spear tipped in black iron. They outnumbered the Lannisters five to one.
Neds leg was a blaze of pain by the time he stopped. He kept a hand on Littlefingers shoulder to help support his weight.
Joffrey stood. His red satin cape was patterned in gold thread; fifty roaring lions to one side, fifty prancing stags to the other. I command the council to make all the necessary arrangements for my coronation, the boy proclaimed. I wish to be crowned within the fortnight. Today I shall accept oaths of fealty from my loyal councillors.
Ned produced Roberts letter. Lord Varys, be so kind as to show this to my lady of Lannister.
The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. Protector of the Realm, she read. Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper? She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.
Those were the kings words, Ser Barristan said, shocked.
We have a new king now, Cersei Lannister replied. Lord Eddard, when last we spoke, you gave me some counsel. Allow me to return the courtesy. Bend the knee, my lord. Bend the knee and swear fealty to my son, and we shall allow you to step down as Hand and live out your days in the grey waste you call home.
Would that I could, Ned said grimly. If she was so determined to force the issue here and now, she left him no choice. Your son has no claim to the throne he sits. Lord Stannis is Roberts true heir.
Liar! Joffrey screamed, his face reddening.
Mother, what does he mean? Princess Myrcella asked the queen plaintively. Isnt Joff the king now?
You condemn yourself with your own mouth, Lord Stark, said Cersei Lannister. Ser Barristan, seize this traitor.
The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard hesitated. In the blink of an eye he was surrounded by Stark guardsmen, bare steel in their mailed fists.
And now the treason moves from words to deeds, Cersei said. Do you think Ser Barristan stands alone, my lord? With an ominous rasp of metal on metal, the Hound drew his longsword. The knights of the Kingsguard and twenty Lannister guardsmen in crimson cloaks moved to support him.
Kill him! the boy king screamed down from the Iron Throne. Kill all of them, I command it!
You leave me no choice, Ned told Cersei Lannister. He called out to Janos Slynt. Commander, take the queen and her children into custody. Do them no harm, but escort them back to the royal apartments and keep them there, under guard.
Men of the Watch! Janos Slynt shouted, donning his helm. A hundred gold cloaks leveled their spears and closed.
I want no bloodshed, Ned told the queen. Tell your men to lay down their swords, and no one need-
With a single sharp thrust, the nearest gold cloak drove his spear into Tomards back. Fat Toms blade dropped from nerveless fingers as the wet red point burst out through his ribs, piercing leather and mail. He was dead before his sword hit the floor.
Neds shout came far too late. Janos Slynt himself slashed open Varlys throat. Cayn whirled, steel flashing, drove back the nearest spearman with a flurry of blows; for an instant it looked as though he might cut his way free. Then the Hound was on him. Sandor Cleganes first cut took off Cayns sword hand at the wrist; his second drove him to his knees and opened him from shoulder to breastbone.
As his men died around him, Littlefinger slid Neds dagger from its sheath and shoved it up under his chin. His smile was apologetic. I did warn you not to trust me, you know.

[/spoiler]

[The Khal Who Rode West]

I totally disagree. You have to consider the order of events. At the time Ned is asking them about why they were not at the other locations -- he has no idea why they are at ToJ. He is trying to find out. If it turned out that he later found out they were at ToJ hiding from their duties, he would think poorly of them. But he finds out after they are dead that they chose to stay and defend the person they believed to be the heir -- at great risk to themselves. That is why he honors them. Anything he says before he learns from Lyanna what really happens cannot be used to indicate Ned's ultimate state of mind regarding how he thinks of the KG. The confrontation is not pointless -- it is the only way they can uphold their duty to defend the rightful heir.

Yeah but there was no heir there the entire time that Neds tells them where they should have been instead. Jon is born after all those events. They're only guarding an heir afterwards. Before that they're sitting at a tower with Lyanna.

[MtnLion]

Yeah but there was no heir there the entire time that Neds tells them where they should have been instead. Jon is born after all those events. They're only guarding an heir afterwards. Before that they're sitting at a tower with Lyanna.

Not true, Jon may have been born as early as the Trident.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah but there was no heir there the entire time that Neds tells them where they should have been instead. Jon is born after all those events. They're only guarding an heir afterwards. Before that they're sitting at a tower with Lyanna.

Yes, I agree they are only guarding the heir after the death of the other royals. As I noted above, during that time they are obeying orders to be at ToJ. Although the general vow is to protect the King, they also obey orders. All seven are not with the King at all times. Jaime was with the King, so the 3 KG at ToJ could consider the King to be under KG protection due to Jaime being there. But they are not responsible for Jaime's crime (of killing Aerys). So during that entire time before Jon is heir, they are following order (Team Obey -- because they are not charged with Protect at that point -- Jaime is and they are properly ordered to be at ToJ). The key is what they do after they learn of the death of the royals. It is ONLY at that point that they need to determine what they are required to do. Before that point, it is easy -- stay at ToJ until they get different orders. But once all the other royals are dead, there is no one to give orders. They need to decide for themselves. Do they "bend the knee" to Robert and take the easy way out. Or do they uphold their vows by making sure that the new heir is protected (become Team Protect)? They do the honorable thing and protect the heir -- with their lives.

 

So Ned is not telling them where they should have been. They should not have been at those places. Ned does not know they were ordered to stay at ToJ. He is trying to get them to explain that -- but they are more opaque in their answers than that. In truth -- as Ned later learns -- they were properly obeying orders by staying at ToJ. But he only learns that later. And then when they learn of the deaths of the royals, they are properly staying at ToJ to defend the new heir. And Ned also learns that later -- which is why he honors them.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Not true, Jon may have been born as early as the Trident.

I think his point is that Jon cannot be heir until the other royals are dead. And most of those events (other than lifting siege) happened before or at the time of the death of the other royals. Nevertheless, for the reasons I state above, I think he is missing the larger point.

[Sly Wren]

Yeah but there was no heir there the entire time that Neds tells them where they should have been instead. Jon is born after all those events. They're only guarding an heir afterwards. Before that they're sitting at a tower with Lyanna.

But the Kingsguard vows aren't only about guarding the King. Also have to obey. Even orders that are stupid or cruel or pointless--we have examples of all that in the books. And that following orders and not judging the King are part of the job.

 

I don't know why the KG are at the tower or who is or is not there. But it seems like the KG were following orders. When they say, "we swore a vow," also means they obeyed. When they were "far away" (place to be determined), it's probably because they were following orders. 

 

Would Ned respect them for obedience? Not sure. Text doesn't say. But if they were following orders, orders that kept them from their King (and others), and the King dies, even if he died because they were following orders--Ned may not sing their praises but am not sure why he'd vilify them for that. 

[MtnLion]

I think his point is that Jon cannot be heir until the other royals are dead. And most of those events (other than lifting siege) happened before or at the time of the death of the other royals. Nevertheless, for the reasons I state above, I think he is missing the larger point.

It is worth a reread of what I replied to. He clearly says "Jon was not born . . .", and "guarding the heir".

[IceFire125]

I totally disagree. You have to consider the order of events. At the time Ned is asking them about why they were not at the other locations -- he has no idea why they are at ToJ. He is trying to find out. If it turned out that he later found out they were at ToJ hiding from their duties, he would think poorly of them. But he finds out after they are dead that they chose to stay and defend the person they believed to be the heir -- at great risk to themselves. That is why he honors them. Anything he says before he learns from Lyanna what really happens cannot be used to indicate Ned's ultimate state of mind regarding how he thinks of the KG. The confrontation is not pointless -- it is the only way they can uphold their duty to defend the rightful heir.

 

Which was heavily transferred to him through-- "promise me, Ned".

 

The rule of thumb that I apply is... the farther we go to theorized from R+L=J, the lessen that risk/danger would be.

 

for example:

 

R+L= legitimate J, the utmost danger and biggest risk to Ned and House Stark (treason), must keep secret even from loved ones (Cat).

R+L= bastard J, still dangerous and poses risk of angering the Crown (Robert/Cersei[Tywin]/Small Council), must keep secret, secret's severity lessened.

 

--- Below this is where it's significantly reduced in severity of risk to Ned and House Stark.

 

N+W=J, no threat to the crown, no need for Ned to keep this a secret from Jon or Cat for 14 yrs.

N+A=J, no threat to the crown, no need for Ned to keep this a secret from Jon or Cat for 14/15 yrs.

N+FD=J, no threat to the crown, no need for Ned to keep this a secret from Jon or Cat for 14/15 yrs.

B+A=J, no threat to the crown, no need for Ned to keep this a secret from Jon or Cat for 15 yrs.

A+L=J, no threat to the crown, no need for Ned to keep this a secret from Jon or Cat for 14/15 yrs.

 

“I glimpsed him once at Winterfell,” the queen said, “though the Starks did their best to hide him. He looks very like his father.” Her husband’s by-blows had his look as well, though at least Robert had the grace to keep them out of sight. Once, after that sorry business with the cat, he had made some noises about bringing some baseborn daughter of his to court. “Do as you please,” she’d told him, “but you may find that the city is not a healthy place for a growing girl.” The bruise those words had won her had been hard to hide from Jaime, but they heard no more about the bastard girl. Catelyn Tully was a mouse, or she would have smothered this Jon Snow in his cradle. Instead, she’s left the filthy task to me.

[corbon]

 

Might you want to tackle Barristan Selmy? I'm of the opinion that the 3 Kingsguard at the TOJ had not heard the news. But assuming they did, does Barristan's actions regardings Robert's "orders/will" give you any insight?

 

The KG and ToJ had definitely heard some news, though its not entirely clear how much news. The first exchange Ned merely says that he looked for them 'at the Trident' and they show they completely understand the reference by their reply.

 

Barristan's actions might give some insight, but they also might not. Barristan himself considers he has made mistakes (relating to these actions) in the past.

 

Yeah but there was no heir there the entire time that Neds tells them where they should have been instead. Jon is born after all those events. They're only guarding an heir afterwards. Before that they're sitting at a tower with Lyanna.

 

But before that the KG as a group are protecting the royals - there is always at least one in KL with the king and at times more, and in the end, 1 with the king and 3 with Rhaegar and the army. KG as individuals (or small groups) are often detached from their prime duties to do other tasks - like Arthur Dayne suppressing the Kingswood Brotherhood, or Selmy and Darry rallying the royalists defeated at the Battle of the Bells.
Dayne and Whent appear to have been detached originally to guard Rhaegar, and by Rhaegar to guard Lyanna. Hightower was detached to get Rhaegar back (which he did, but is possibly forced to stay behind as a condition by Rhaegar, whch would make sense on several levels, but we can't tell).
You can't reasonably hold detached KG responsible for the failures of their brothers when they are just following the orders they were given and their brothers are fulfilling the first duty.

[The Agency of Sansa Stark]

The KG betrayed Aerys II more than they betrayed anyone else. if they'd been where they were supposed to be, perhaps their king would still be alive.

[Sly Wren]

The KG betrayed Aerys II more than they betrayed anyone else. if they'd been where they were supposed to be, perhaps their king would still be alive.

True, he might be alive. But "where they were supposed to be"--seems like they are supposed to be where they are ordered to be. And I can't think of anything in the text at present that says any of them weren't following orders. Rhaegar seems to have left them wherever he left them (location to be determined) when he went north and eventually to the Trident. Seems like he gave them orders to stay put. Why? Not sure. But texts make a pretty good case that "orders are orders" for the KG. We see that both with Aerys (via Hightower) and Joffrey (multiple situations). 

 

If they weren't with Aerys, but instead following orders, can they really be held responsible for what happens if they are away? 

[Kingmonkey]

About Ser Barristan & Jaime:
 

The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. "Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.
"Those were the king's words," Ser Barristan said, shocked.
"We have a new king now," Cersei Lannister replied. "Lord Eddard, when last we spoke, you gave me some counsel. Allow me to return the courtesy. Bend the knee, my lord. Bend the knee and swear fealty to my son, and we shall allow you to step down as Hand and live out your days in the grey waste you call home."
"Would that I could," Ned said grimly. If she was so determined to force the issue here and now, she left him no choice. "Your son has no claim to the throne he sits. Lord Stannis is Robert's true heir."
"Liar!" Joffrey screamed, his face reddening.
"Mother, what does he mean?" Princess Myrcella asked the queen plaintively. "Isn't Joff the king now?"
"You condemn yourself with your own mouth, Lord Stark," said Cersei Lannister. "Ser Barristan, seize this traitor."
The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard hesitated. In the blink of an eye he was surrounded by Stark guardsmen, bare steel in their mailed fists.

(Bold added for emphasis) It's quite clear that Barristan does not know what to do. He asks to go to Joffrey's side at the council, because he assumes that's what he should be doing. "Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily." When that is called into question, Barristan's shocked that Cersei tears up Robert's letter, and hesitates when given the command to seize Ned. Sure he wants to be at the king's side because that's his job -- but he's not sure who that is, because making that decision is not his job. 

After the Trident, Barristan accepted Robert as his king rather than defending Aerys / Viserys, to the death. Despite this, Ned clearly has a great deal of respect for him. This is quite unlike the situation with Jamie. Ned isn't bothered about Kingsguards who do not fulfil their duty of the extent that they die for their king, he is able to have great respect for one who didn't. His feelings about Jamie are nothing to do with a failure to fulfil that vow, and everything to do with Jamie betraying that vow by killing the person he was vowed to protect.

 There's a difference in failing in your vows because you aren't there, or because you're hors d'combat, or because they King makes it impossible etc, than failing in your vows because you intentionally betray those vows. "Even the truest knight cannot protect a king against himself."

 

The contrast in Ned's attitude towards Jaime with that towards the 3KG simply proves that the 3KG didn't kill the king they were supposed to be protecting. That's not exactly a surprise. Barristan's actions on the Trident and Ned's subsequent attitude towards him show that Ned does not require a Kingsguard to follow their duty unto death to consider them honourable men. 

[The Great Cornholio!]

About Ser Barristan & Jaime:
 

(Bold added for emphasis) It's quite clear that Barristan does not know what to do. He asks to go to Joffrey's side at the council, because he assumes that's what he should be doing. "Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily." When that is called into question, Barristan's shocked that Cersei tears up Robert's letter, and hesitates when given the command to seize Ned. Sure he wants to be at the king's side because that's his job -- but he's not sure who that is, because making that decision is not his job. 

After the Trident, Barristan accepted Robert as his king rather than defending Aerys / Viserys, to the death. Despite this, Ned clearly has a great deal of respect for him. This is quite unlike the situation with Jamie. Ned isn't bothered about Kingsguards who do not fulfil their duty of the extent that they die for their king, he is able to have great respect for one who didn't. His feelings about Jamie are nothing to do with a failure to fulfil that vow, and everything to do with Jamie betraying that vow by killing the person he was vowed to protect.

 There's a difference in failing in your vows because you aren't there, or because you're hors d'combat, or because they King makes it impossible etc, than failing in your vows because you intentionally betray those vows. "Even the truest knight cannot protect a king against himself."

 

The contrast in Ned's attitude towards Jaime with that towards the 3KG simply proves that the 3KG didn't kill the king they were supposed to be protecting. That's not exactly a surprise. Barristan's actions on the Trident and Ned's subsequent attitude towards him show that Ned does not require a Kingsguard to follow their duty unto death to consider them honourable men. 

 

I think at the Trident he was a POW. I don't think he accepted Robert as his King until after the Sack of Kings Landing.

[Dr Qyburn M.D]

"The kings guard does not flee"
Is this one of the Kings guards vows?

[The Twinslayer]

No, Hightower is not a participant to murder. Rickard asked for a trial and nominated himself as Brandon's defender. Aerys cheated the trial, but the KG are not to blame for that, nor is it their place to judge. They protected the King, fulfilled their first duty.

 

Note also that there is no indication that it is the furnace wind that charred the flesh caught in Drogon's teeth. Just that there was charred flesh and broken bones caught there when she looked. Dragons flame their meat before eating it, so any meat caught in his teeth was just as likely charred before he bit into it as charred by his breathing.
Note also that shortly after the furnace wind to the face, Drogon does actually blow black dragon-fire at Dany and she ducks under it (as in, head and hair in particular are the highest and nearest points as you duck under something aimed at you). That is probably when her hair is burned off.

On the first point, I can't imagine a scenario where Ned thinks that Aerys' murder of Rickard and Brandon, and the way in which it was done, was justified, just because Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel.  But it is clear that Ned thinks that Hightower was honor-bound, by his Kingsguard vow, to participate in those murders when Aerys ordered Hightower to do so.  That is the only way that Ned can still include Hightower in the group that were a "shining example to the world" in spite of what Hightower helped do to his father and his brother.  

 

On the second, it is clear that the "furnace wind" did, in fact, char the flesh that was stuck in Drogon's teeth.  That passage says that first, the boar killed Barsena and started eating her.  Second, Drogon snorted flame on the boar and started eating both it and Barsena (the boar is clearly cooked; Barsena may or may not be cooked); then the "hero" plunged a spear into Drogon's back, and Drogon shrugged him off.  Without breathing any fire, "the dragon's teeth closed hard around his forearm.  'No' was all the man had time to shout.  Drogon wrenched his arm from his shoulder and tossed it aside as a dog might toss aside a rodent in a rat pit."

 

So now we have possibly uncooked flesh from Barsena, and definitely uncooked flesh from the "hero," in Drogon's mouth.

 

Then Drogon "spat fire, bathing two men in black flame."  That may have charred the meat from Barsena and the hero.  

 

But he does not eat the "two men."  Instead, "[a]nother attacker stabbed at his eyes until the dragon caught him in his jaws and tore his belly out."  No fire, Drogon is just using his teeth to tear the man's belly out.  So now we have the most recent entry of flesh into Drogon's mouth, and it is not him taking his time to eat Barsena and the boar, and it isn't him just ripping off an arm and tossing it aside.  His teeth rip out a man's belly.  

 

Here is what happens next:

 

"Drogon roared.  The sound filled the pit.  A furnace wind engulfed her.  The dragon's long scaled neck stretched toward her.  When his mouth opened, she could see bits of charred flesh between his black teeth."  

 

The bits of charred flesh might still include pieces of Barsena, the boar, and the hero, which are the only pieces of burned flesh he bit off.  But they would certainly include pieces of the last thing he bit off -- the "other attacker's" belly.  The furnace wind definitely burned that flesh, otherwise, it would not be charred.   

 

 

I think others have addressed this issue adequately. As others have noted, there is a huge difference between the Brandon/Rickard situation and the Lyanna situation. Basically, Brandon broke the law and Rickard foolishly agreed to be his champion. Yes, Aerys cheated, but that is only a side point -- those men were rightfully being held in KL. No justification could exist for keeping Lyanna against her will at ToJ and raped. But as I noted, others have addressed these points adequately, so I will not belabor the point.

I don't think Ned would draw the distinction you are trying to draw.  Rickard asked for, and was granted, trial by combat for Brandon's supposed "crime", which is a right that is well-recognized in Westeros.  Note that Brandon was merely accused of challenging the Prince of Dragonstone to a duel, while Tyrion was given a fair trial by combat when he was accused of the much worse crime of regicide.  

 

So Brandon, and his champion, Rickard, were entitled to fair combat.  But Aerys reneged and set up a grisly execution with Hightower's help (Hightower guarded the king throughout the torture and execution).  I don't think Ned would forgive Hightower for participating in that but then turn around and condemn him for obeying an order from Rhaegar to hold Lyanna against her will.  

 

What this tells us is that Ned respects the Kingsguard because they upheld their vow to obey orders even when the orders themselves (Aerys' order to torture and murder Rickard, and the possible order from Rhaegar to hold Lyanna against her will) were completely repugnant.  

 

That's an interesting theory but I don't find it very convincing. (Also I'm still not totally clear on what qualifies as a "special phrase.") Isn't it just as likely that Jeor just wasn't considering the possibility of Jon holding a niece or nephew? I'd imagine for most men of the watch that's never an option. In any event one person speaking imprecisely doesn't convince me that Martin is intentionally creating dialects where phrases mean different things in different parts of Westeros.

 

 

And I just wanna say one more time that I disagree with you on Quentyn using furnace wind to describe the flames that burnt him. To add to what Corbon said wind = air, not fire. When you open a furnace do flames shoot out or does hot air come out? I'm not trying to be rude but I don't get people who cling to the idea that furnace wind means anything more than exactly what it sounds like. 

 

I can't imagine that Jeor Mormont would think, even for a moment, that Jon would never meet his nephews and nieces.  Jeor is tuned into the politics of the realm.  He promoted Waymar Royce because Waymar's father was an important Lord.  Just a few months before having this conversation with Jon, Jeor sent Benjen to Winterfell, and it is clear that Benjen went there with sufficient regularity that Ned's children knew him well.  It is even suggested that Maege Mormont may have visited the Wall to give Longclaw back to Jeor.  Also, in this passage, Jeor is rubbing Jon's nose in the fact that Robb will have a beautiful wife and children, while Jon will not.  Given all of this, Jeor has to know that Jon will see his own nephews and nieces, it is clear that Jeor does not consider a man's nephews and nieces to be that man's "blood," and Jeor uses that term in a different way than it is used in the South.  

 

We should just agree to disagree on Quentyn, because I don't understand how anyone could read that passage and conclude that Quentyn was burned by something other than the "furnace wind" from Rhaegal.  I think it was actual flame, but even if it wasn't, that air must been as hot as the air that charred the flesh of the "other attacker" that was stuck in Drogon's teeth.    

 

 

 This has probably been done to death, but I still need it clarified: he's not the heir. He's third in line. Viserys and then Aegon are ahead, aren't they? So if they need to guard the heir, shouldn't they be trying to get to the actual heir, and not standing out in the open for a fight?

There is a theory that the Kingsguard somehow heard that Aegon and Rhaenys were dead (even though they mention the location of every other known Targaryen apart from those two) but that somehow they did not know that Viserys became the heir two weeks before that happened. 

[The Great Cornholio!]

On the first point, I can't imagine a scenario where Ned thinks that Aerys' murder of Rickard and Brandon, and the way in which it was done, was justified, just because Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel.  But it is clear that Ned thinks that Hightower was honor-bound, by his Kingsguard vow, to participate in those murders when Aerys ordered Hightower to do so.  That is the only way that Ned can still include Hightower in the group that were a "shining example to the world" in spite of what Hightower helped do to his father and his brother.  

 

On the second, it is clear that the "furnace wind" did, in fact, char the flesh that was stuck in Drogon's teeth.  That passage says that first, the boar killed Barsena and started eating her.  Second, Drogon snorted flame on the boar and started eating both it and Barsena (the boar is clearly cooked; Barsena may or may not be cooked); then the "hero" plunged a spear into Drogon's back, and Drogon shrugged him off.  Without breathing any fire, "the dragon's teeth closed hard around his forearm.  'No' was all the man had time to shout.  Drogon wrenched his arm from his shoulder and tossed it aside as a dog might toss aside a rodent in a rat pit."

 

So now we have possibly uncooked flesh from Barsena, and definitely uncooked flesh from the "hero," in Drogon's mouth.

 

Then Drogon "spat fire, bathing two men in black flame."  That may have charred the meat from Barsena and the hero.  

 

But he does not eat the "two men."  Instead, "[a]nother attacker stabbed at his eyes until the dragon caught him in his jaws and tore his belly out."  No fire, Drogon is just using his teeth to tear the man's belly out.  So now we have the most recent entry of flesh into Drogon's mouth, and it is not him taking his time to eat Barsena and the boar, and it isn't him just ripping off an arm and tossing it aside.  His teeth rip out a man's belly.  

 

Here is what happens next:

 

"Drogon roared.  The sound filled the pit.  A furnace wind engulfed her.  The dragon's long scaled neck stretched toward her.  When his mouth opened, she could see bits of charred flesh between his black teeth."  

 

The bits of charred flesh might still include pieces of Barsena, the boar, and the hero, which are the only pieces of burned flesh he bit off.  But they would certainly include pieces of the last thing he bit off -- the "other attacker's" belly.  The furnace wind definitely burned that flesh, otherwise, it would not be charred.   

 

I don't think Ned would draw the distinction you are trying to draw.  Rickard asked for, and was granted, trial by combat for Brandon's supposed "crime", which is a right that is well-recognized in Westeros.  Note that Brandon was merely accused of challenging the Prince of Dragonstone to a duel, while Tyrion was given a fair trial by combat when he was accused of the much worse crime of regicide.  

 

So Brandon, and his champion, Rickard, were entitled to fair combat.  But Aerys reneged and set up a grisly execution with Hightower's help (Hightower guarded the king throughout the torture and execution).  I don't think Ned would forgive Hightower for participating in that but then turn around and condemn him for obeying an order from Rhaegar to hold Lyanna against her will.  

 

What this tells us is that Ned respects the Kingsguard because they upheld their vow to obey orders even when the orders themselves (Aerys' order to torture and murder Rickard, and the possible order from Rhaegar to hold Lyanna against her will) were completely repugnant.  

 

I can't imagine that Jeor Mormont would think, even for a moment, that Jon would never meet his nephews and nieces.  Jeor is tuned into the politics of the realm.  He promoted Waymar Royce because Waymar's father was an important Lord.  Just a few months before having this conversation with Jon, Jeor sent Benjen to Winterfell, and it is clear that Benjen went there with sufficient regularity that Ned's children knew him well.  It is even suggested that Maege Mormont may have visited the Wall to give Longclaw back to Jeor.  Also, in this passage, Jeor is rubbing Jon's nose in the fact that Robb will have a beautiful wife and children, while Jon will not.  Given all of this, Jeor has to know that Jon will see his own nephews and nieces, it is clear that Jeor does not consider a man's nephews and nieces to be that man's "blood," and Jeor uses that term in a different way than it is used in the South.  

 

We should just agree to disagree on Quentyn, because I don't understand how anyone could read that passage and conclude that Quentyn was burned by something other than the "furnace wind" from Rhaegal.  I think it was actual flame, but even if it wasn't, that air must been as hot as the air that charred the flesh of the "other attacker" that was stuck in Drogon's teeth.    

 

There is a theory that the Kingsguard somehow heard that Aegon and Rhaenys were dead (even though they mention the location of every other known Targaryen apart from those two) but that somehow they did not know that Viserys became the heir two weeks before that happened. 

 

How would the Kingsguard hear the Aegon and Rhaenys were dead? The TOJ doesn't seem like a place that got ravens.

[spoon89]

There is a theory that the Kingsguard somehow heard that Aegon and Rhaenys were dead (even though they mention the location of every other known Targaryen apart from those two) but that somehow they did not know that Viserys became the heir two weeks before that happened. 

 

I'm pretty sure i remember that Viserys was crown on Dragonstone, by his mother with her crown. Who knows if or how far that little piece of news got out,

[The Twinslayer]

 

How would the Kingsguard hear the Aegon and Rhaenys were dead? The TOJ doesn't seem like a place that got ravens.

I don't think they did know about Aegon and Rhaenys.  Otherwise, it would have come up in the conversation they had with Ned.  But if they did know about it, then they would also know that Viserys was the new head of House Targaryen, because he became the new heir weeks before Aegon and Rhaenys died.  

[corbon]

On the first point, I can't imagine a scenario where Ned thinks that Aerys' murder of Rickard and Brandon, and the way in which it was done, was justified, just because Brandon challenged Rhaegar to a duel.  But it is clear that Ned thinks that Hightower was honor-bound, by his Kingsguard vow, to participate in those murders when Aerys ordered Hightower to do so.  That is the only way that Ned can still include Hightower in the group that were a "shining example to the world" in spite of what Hightower helped do to his father and his brother.

 
Stick to the data in the text, not your reinvented descriptions of them.
Brandon demanded Rhaegar 'come out and die'. He was arrested and tried for treason. You may claim all you like that he issued a challenge despite that we never see one, and he may in fact have done so, we don't know for sure, but what we do know is that he committed treason, he was arrested for treason and he was tried for treason.
Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."
"Ethan Glover was Brandon's squire," Catelyn said. "He was the only one to survive. The others were Jeffory Mallister, Kyle Royce, and Elbert Arryn, Jon Arryn's nephew and heir." It was queer how she still remembered the names, after so many years. "Aerys accused them of treason and summoned their fathers to court to answer the charge, with the sons as hostages. When they came, he had them murdered without trial. Fathers and sons both."
"There were trials. Of a sort. Lord Rickard demanded trial by combat, and the king granted the request. Stark armored himself as for battle, thinking to duel one of the Kingsguard."
 
So yes, absolutely Ned can imagine Hightower and his colleagues honour bound by their KG oaths to protect and assist their king in such a circumstance but not honour bound to hold a young noblewoman who has committed no offence prisoner against her will, even after both King and prince are dead.
 

On the second, it is clear that the "furnace wind" did, in fact, char the flesh that was stuck in Drogon's teeth.  That passage says that first, the boar killed Barsena and started eating her.  Second, Drogon snorted flame on the boar and started eating both it and Barsena (the boar is clearly cooked; Barsena may or may not be cooked); then the "hero" plunged a spear into Drogon's back, and Drogon shrugged him off.  Without breathing any fire, "the dragon's teeth closed hard around his forearm.  'No' was all the man had time to shout.  Drogon wrenched his arm from his shoulder and tossed it aside as a dog might toss aside a rodent in a rat pit."
 
So now we have possibly uncooked flesh from Barsena, and definitely uncooked flesh from the "hero," in Drogon's mouth.
 
Then Drogon "spat fire, bathing two men in black flame."  That may have charred the meat from Barsena and the hero.  
 
But he does not eat the "two men."  Instead, "[a]nother attacker stabbed at his eyes until the dragon caught him in his jaws and tore his belly out."  No fire, Drogon is just using his teeth to tear the man's belly out.  So now we have the most recent entry of flesh into Drogon's mouth, and it is not him taking his time to eat Barsena and the boar, and it isn't him just ripping off an arm and tossing it aside.  His teeth rip out a man's belly.  
 
Here is what happens next:
 
"Drogon roared.  The sound filled the pit.  A furnace wind engulfed her.  The dragon's long scaled neck stretched toward her.  When his mouth opened, she could see bits of charred flesh between his black teeth."  
 
The bits of charred flesh might still include pieces of Barsena, the boar, and the hero, which are the only pieces of burned flesh he bit off.  But they would certainly include pieces of the last thing he bit off -- the "other attacker's" belly.  The furnace wind definitely burned that flesh, otherwise, it would not be charred.

So, lets be clear here.
There's no 'furnace wind'.
There is dragon flame at the boar who is feeding on Barsena.
The dragon feeds on the cooked boar (and the maybe, maybe not, cooked Barsena)

Dragon tears an arm off another man (but tosses it away)

The dragon spits fire on two men (probably charring their flesh)

The dragon rips another man's belly out (no bones there).

Then there is a furnace wind.
Then Dany looks in its mouth and sees broken bones and charred flesh.

 

And you insist that the charred flesh (and broken bones too remember) come from the belly only and must therefore be charred by the furnace wind?

Well, I'll give you this. Its on a par with your usual arguments.

Other readers can make their own minds up from here.
 

I don't think Ned would draw the distinction you are trying to draw.  Rickard asked for, and was granted, trial by combat for Brandon's supposed "crime", which is a right that is well-recognized in Westeros.  Note that Brandon was merely accused of challenging the Prince of Dragonstone to a duel, while Tyrion was given a fair trial by combat when he was accused of the much worse crime of regicide.  
 
So Brandon, and his champion, Rickard, were entitled to fair combat.  But Aerys reneged and set up a grisly execution with Hightower's help (Hightower guarded the king throughout the torture and execution).  I don't think Ned would forgive Hightower for participating in that but then turn around and condemn him for obeying an order from Rhaegar to hold Lyanna against her will.  
 
What this tells us is that Ned respects the Kingsguard because they upheld their vow to obey orders even when the orders themselves (Aerys' order to torture and murder Rickard, and the possible order from Rhaegar to hold Lyanna against her will) were completely repugnant.

Start from an accurate base premise and you have a chance of coming to a reasonable conclusion.
 
Its very difficult to have a decent discussion with someone who distorts basic facts so much.
 

We should just agree to disagree on Quentyn, because I don't understand how anyone could read that passage and conclude that Quentyn was burned by something other than the "furnace wind" from Rhaegal.  I think it was actual flame, but even if it wasn't, that air must been as hot as the air that charred the flesh of the "other attacker" that was stuck in Drogon's teeth.

Its very simple. I went through the timing for you in a single sentence. Yes, agree to disagree.
 

There is a theory that the Kingsguard somehow heard that Aegon and Rhaenys were dead (even though they mention the location of every other known Targaryen apart from those two) but that somehow they did not know that Viserys became the heir two weeks before that happened.

 

Its a fact that they had had some news since they understood Ned's very first reference to the Trident.

 

Its the (original) source of their news that matters for the content though, something we may never find out for sure.
However they got news, its not easily done (no ravens fly to ToJ) and not many people could do it (very few people know where they are, almost certainly none in Aerys' camp or Lyanna would long ago have been seized by Aerys as a useful hostage).
Whatever news they get is therefore going to be what is considered useful for others to know by the original source (ie the source in KL, the source that their source probably got news from).
now if that source is the victorious rebels (who are certainly going to be promulgating the news of the destruction of the Targaryen dynasty and the ascension of Robert), or possibly someone very pro-Rhaegar, then the promotion of Viserys is either utterly unimportant or significantly negative and either way may well not be included in any 'news packet'.
 

I don't think they did know about Aegon and Rhaenys.  Otherwise, it would have come up in the conversation they had with Ned.  But if they did know about it, then they would also know that Viserys was the new head of House Targaryen, because he became the new heir weeks before Aegon and Rhaenys died.

 
The one does not follow from the other. It depends on the origins of the news and what was considered important by those who first sent it out.