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Prince of Ghost

R+L=J v 150

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We even have Cersei herself confirming that Margaery isn't the 'younger more beautiful queen' as she herself confirms that Margaery isn't more beautiful than she was or is.

 

 

I find the idea of trusting a comparison of appearance between Cersei's and Margaery in a Cersei PoV chapter hilarious. :lol:

 

Cersei is like an aging supermodel that thinks she hasn't lost.

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So maybe TGoHH was reminded of Lyanna when she looked at Arya? Seems to me this may open another possibility for an R+L=J reveal along with Howland Reed.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Yes. 

 

When the GoHH saw Arya and said, "wolf-child" (Lyanna) and metioned "Summerhall" (Rhaegar), they were big hints for me.

 

I'm of the belief that the GoHH talked with Rhaegar many nights when he visited the place and maybe 'compose' songs while he's there.  They shared similar griefs, the story and tragedy of Summerhall, death of Jenny of Oldstones and the court of Rhaegar's great grandparents of King Aegon V.  She must have mentioned to Rhaegar at one time to fulfill the prophecy, he needs to have a child with a woman with the blood of the Kings of Winter in her veins.  It was either this or Bloodraven giving him a vision in his dream, of a similar message.  Knowing Elia's condition, this caused Rhaegar to do what he did, the drastic change of course.  The events at the tourney of Harrenhal, mainly seeing, and putting the puzzle together of what Lyanna did as tKotLT was what led to Rhaegar's decisions.  

 

What came after this, I can see Martin gave us hints through Alys asking Jon for help at Castle Black.  Lyanna wanted to get out of her situation with Robert and thus when Rhaegar offered to 'steal' her away she agreed.  I think Rhaegar know very well that with a message from the High Septon for Lyanna's sake, the plan to marry off Lyanna will be annulled.

 

I will tell my aunt that I don’t want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. - ASOS, Sansa VII

 

I don't think Rhaegar fall in love with Lyanna at the onset of meeting her, though he respected what she did with the whole tKotLT scenes.  I think it was after they fled that Rhaegar started to feel for Lyanna's vigor of life (Ygritte to Jon), captivated by her beauty and wittiness (Val to Jon), that he fell in love.  Likewise, Lyanna felt for Rhaegar's wounded personality.  Maybe she cracked some jokes along the way that made him genuinely laughed out loud, to the surprised of Arthur and Oswell, that they had to compliment Lyanna for making him laugh that hard after so many years.

 

I believe Rhaegar felt the pressure and the torment of fulfilling the prophecy, that he trusted and opened up his feelings to Lyanna.  Maybe this is what led the culminating of Lyanna's feelings of sympathy, gratitude, love and the urge to mend his heart.  She felt Rhaegar's sense of doom. 

 

I think the twist here is that Rhaegar's plan was to give back Lyanna back to the Starks and along the way, Lyanna noticed the scenery that they are near the Gods Eye, it was right then and there that Lyanna urged Rhaegar that they should marry.  Yes, it was Lyanna that convinced Rhaegar to marry her.  It makes perfect sense to me with the passages of Jon questioning his father's and his honor in his thoughts through out the books.

 

He wondered if his father had been torn the same way

...

I broke my vows with her. I never meant to, but …” It was wrong. Wrong to love her, wrong to leave her … “I wasn’t strong enough…”

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:thumbsup:
 
Yes. 
 
When the GoHH saw Arya and said, "wolf-child" (Lyanna) and metioned "Summerhall" (Rhaegar), they were big hints for me.
 
I'm of the belief that the GoHH talked with Rhaegar many nights when he visited the place and maybe 'compose' songs while he's there.  They shared similar griefs, the story and tragedy of Summerhall, death of Jenny of Oldstones and the court of Rhaegar's great grandparents of King Aegon V.  She must have mentioned to Rhaegar at one time to fulfill the prophecy, he needs to have a child with a woman with the blood of the Kings of Winter in her veins.  It was either this or Bloodraven giving him a vision in his dream, of a similar message.  Knowing Elia's condition, this caused Rhaegar to do what he did, the drastic change of course.  The events at the tourney of Harrenhal, mainly seeing, and putting the puzzle together of what Lyanna did as tKotLT was what led to Rhaegar's decisions.  
 
What came after this, I can see Martin gave us hints through Alys asking Jon for help at Castle Black.  Lyanna wanted to get out of her situation with Robert and thus when Rhaegar offered to 'steal' her away she agreed.  I think Rhaegar know very well that with a message from the High Septon for Lyanna's sake, the plan to marry off Lyanna will be annulled.
 

I will tell my aunt that I dont want to marry Robert. Not even the High Septon himself could declare a woman married if she refused to say the vows. - ASOS, Sansa VII

 
I don't think Rhaegar fall in love with Lyanna at the onset of meeting her, though he respected what she did with the whole tKotLT scenes.  I think it was after they fled that Rhaegar started to feel for Lyanna's vigor of life (Ygritte to Jon), captivated by her beauty and wittiness (Val to Jon), that he fell in love.  Likewise, Lyanna felt for Rhaegar's wounded personality.  Maybe she cracked some jokes along the way that made him genuinely laughed out loud, to the surprised of Arthur and Oswell, that they had to compliment Lyanna for making him laugh that hard after so many years.
 
I believe Rhaegar felt the pressure and the torment of fulfilling the prophecy, that he trusted and opened up his feelings to Lyanna.  Maybe this is what led the culminating of Lyanna's feelings of sympathy, gratitude, love and the urge to mend his heart.  She felt Rhaegar's sense of doom. 
 
I think the twist here is that Rhaegar's plan was to give back Lyanna back to the Starks and along the way, Lyanna noticed the scenery that they are near the Gods Eye, it was right then and there that Lyanna urged Rhaegar that they should marry.  Yes, it was Lyanna that convinced Rhaegar to marry her.  It makes perfect sense to me with the passages of Jon questioning his father's and his honor in his thoughts through out the books.
 

He wondered if his father had been torn the same way

...

I broke my vows with her. I never meant to, but It was wrong. Wrong to love her, wrong to leave her I wasnt strong enough


I think we have to look at what Martin tells us through his story's within stories, taking Jorahs winning at his when he has never done so before.

Rhaegar could not get Lyanna out of anything. His own mother didn't want her marriage with HIS father.

As GRRM said, they didn't even consider getting out of such arrangements because it was a way of life.

Remember, in the Ygritte/Lyanna analogy, Ygritte was deceived by Jon.

Perhaps he told her he would send her across the Narrow Sea for adventure, But took her to the TOJ instead, and she traded one man's tower, (storms end), for anothers.

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I think we have to look at what Martin tells us through his story's within stories, taking Jorahs winning at his when he has never done so before.

Rhaegar could not get Lyanna out of anything. His own mother didn't want her marriage with HIS father.

As GRRM said, they didn't even consider getting out of such arrangements because it was a way of life.

Remember, in the Ygritte/Lyanna analogy, Ygritte was deceived by Jon.

Perhaps he told her he would send her across the Narrow Sea for adventure, But took her to the TOJ instead, and she traded one man's tower, (storms end), for anothers.

 

True.  I can go that route in the thought process.

 

But Aerys was king and it was not his doing, it was his Father, Jaehaerys that set up his marriage with his sister (again, influenced by prophecy).  So that passage by Martin of Sansa there was a big reveal to me that Lyanna must have had the spine, that when push come to shove, I think she would have defied her Father's order (at least Martin is alluding that thought in her--via Sansa).

 

I'm just of the belief that it was not all just clear-cut-Rhaegar's doing.  I think Lyanna had a lot of influence to put forth and sway Rhaegar as well, thus led to her also being part of the responsibility and tragedy.  

 

Just my thoughts.

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True.  I can go that route in the thought process.
 
But Aerys was king and it was not his doing, it was his Father, Jaehaerys that set up his marriage with his sister (again, influenced by prophecy).  So that passage by Martin of Sansa there was a big reveal to me that Lyanna must have had the spine, that when push come to shove, I think she would have defied her Father's order (at least Martin is alluding that thought in her--via Sansa).
 
I'm just of the belief that it was not all just clear-cut-Rhaegar's doing.  I think Lyanna had a lot of influence to put forth and sway Rhaegar as well, thus led to her also being part of the responsibility and tragedy.  
 
Just my thoughts.

Totally respect that. :)

I just think there is so much more that suggests honor was VERY important to her, enough that she fought for another's.

I think it more likely she would have gone to her marriage with her chin up even if she was defiant.

As for her tragedy, donning armor and jousting was enough to bring her to an early grave.
That that wolf's blood made her the epicenter for one man's potentially delusional understanding of prophesy is enough to make her tragic.

I think the feather bed analogy applies as much to Lyanna as Arya and her dress of leaves.

And Robert himself alludes to Lyannas love of freedom, so he may have known her better than we thought.

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True.  I can go that route in the thought process.
 
But Aerys was king and it was not his doing, it was his Father, Jaehaerys that set up his marriage with his sister (again, influenced by prophecy).  So that passage by Martin of Sansa there was a big reveal to me that Lyanna must have had the spine, that when push come to shove, I think she would have defied her Father's order (at least Martin is alluding that thought in her--via Sansa).
 
I'm just of the belief that it was not all just clear-cut-Rhaegar's doing.  I think Lyanna had a lot of influence to put forth and sway Rhaegar as well, thus led to her also being part of the responsibility and tragedy.  
 
Just my thoughts.


Could you elaborate on your comment about Aerys' arranged marriage? Aerys' father was not king at the time of Aerys' marriage. Aerys had a regular marriage arranged by his father same as Lyanna did. Why do you believe that Aerys couldn't get out of his marriage but Lyanna could? Aerys was told to marry Rhaella. He wasn't commanded to do so by his king which would have made it that he'd have to marry Rhaella. He has the same option of simply not saying the vows and he's not married that Lyanna does.

Also what makes you think that when push came to shove that Lyanna wouldn't have married Robert? It seems she'd been betrothed to Robert for 3 years when she disappeared. She had plenty of time to defy her father over her arranged marriage. She never did in all that time. All she did was moan about it on the very first night of her betrothal. And she moaned about it to Ned not Rickard.

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Totally respect that. :)

I just think there is so much more that suggests honor was VERY important to her, enough that she fought for another's.

I think it more likely she would have gone to her marriage with her chin up even if she was defiant.


As for her tragedy, donning armor and jousting was enough to bring her to an early grave.
That that wolf's blood made her the epicenter for one man's potentially delusional understanding of prophesy is enough to make her tragic.

I think the feather bed analogy applies as much to Lyanna as Arya and her dress of leaves.

And Robert himself alludes to Lyannas love of freedom, so he may have known her better than we thought.

Yes--very true. One of the reasons I have trouble with "running away with Rhaegar" scenario--we may not know much about Lyanna, but we know the above and that she didn't want to marry a man who wouldn't be faithful, even if he loved her. She seems to have known her own mind and been willing to stick to it.

 

So, taking her by force (reason to be determined) or trick (reason to be determined) seems most likely scenario if Rhaegar took her.

 

Could maybe see her asking someone else to help her--but then I can't see that as Rhaegar. . . 

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Totally respect that. :)

I just think there is so much more that suggests honor was VERY important to her, enough that she fought for another's.

I think it more likely she would have gone to her marriage with her chin up even if she was defiant.

As for her tragedy, donning armor and jousting was enough to bring her to an early grave.
That that wolf's blood made her the epicenter for one man's potentially delusional understanding of prophesy is enough to make her tragic.

I think the feather bed analogy applies as much to Lyanna as Arya and her dress of leaves.

And Robert himself alludes to Lyannas love of freedom, so he may have known her better than we thought.

I'd rather say that some aspects of honour were very important to her, such as standing up for the weak (just like Jon did for Sam). However, the characteristics that the honourable Ned isn't honourable but wild and wilful, and the latter aspect is again confirmed by Meera's story, not easy to refuse. Time and again, we see her not submitting herself with defiance but circumventing the rules which she didn't like to do what she wanted to do. Eloping with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert would very much be in line here.

 

BTW, this line has caught my attention:

 

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle (of Faces)

 

It has been speculated before that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have stayed on the isle for some time, as well - never actually leaving the place where she was staying (HH), just like the Stark maiden in Bael's story, and if I understand correctly, it was still winter when Rhaegar "fell upon Lyanna".

 

 

 

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle

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"If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl" (ADwD 577) bold emphasis added

 

Here Daenerys is wishing for Daario to come and save her from a marriage she does not want. Is she drawing a comparison between herself and Lyanna just because she wants saving? Or is it also because she thinks, and Martin is dropping the hint, that like Daenerys's present circumstance of having to wed a man she does not love, Daenerys believes Lyanna was rescued from a marriage she did not want? I think so. After many clues in this direction, I think the above just about shouts that this was the case with Lyanna and Rhaegar.

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Here Daenerys is wishing for Daario to come and save her from a marriage she does not want. Is she drawing a comparison between herself and Lyanna just because she wants saving? Or is it also because she thinks, and Martin is dropping the hint, that like Daenerys's present circumstance of having to wed a man she does not love, Daenerys believes Lyanna was rescued from a marriage she did not want? I think so. After many clues in this direction, I think the above just about shouts that this was the case with Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Yes--Dany has been told Viserys' romantic story and she believes it. But that doesn't mean this is what happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar, only that Dany believes it's what happened. 

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Fire Eater,

 

we don't know where legitimized children come in the line of succession since children usually are only legitimized when there are no trueborn heirs. Yet, for instance, in the case of Daemon Blackfyre his supporters thought Daemon came before Aegon's other trueborn child, the Princess Daenerys Targaryen Martell, in the line of succession. That at least establishes that male legitimized bastards can make a claim against their trueborn siblings. Not to mention that, since there was no proof that Daeron II was not Aegon IV's son, Daemon Blackfyre actually tried to steal both his half-brother's and his half-sister's birthright. Daeron II was the crowned and anointed king, after all.

 

Addam and Alyn were only legitimized after Addam had mounted a dragon, but it is you who are insisting that this was done because Addam succeeded where Alyn failed. You have no textual evidence for that assumption, and can thus not use this whole scenario as evidence for this 'dragon trial' idea in regards to Jon Snow. I don't know if there will be such a thing but if there is it won't be variation of the Addam situation since that clearly wasn't dragon trial.

 

Jace's involvement in the whole thing suggests that he was aware of Corlys' feelings and possibly even about the real parentage of the boys. He and Corlys convinced Rhaenyra together - certainly he couldn't have been ignorant to everything that was going on if he was actually taking charge around that time. And I'm pretty sure if Laenor was not the father of Rhaenyra's sons she would have been rather blunt about that once that Marilda woman and Corlys claimed that the boys were Laenor's.

 

TPatQ is a heavily edited version of Gyldayn's full account. It isn't a full story and it has a lot of plot holes due to the editing. We don't know if the full text elaborated a little more on the dragonseeds and their potential ancestors. Ulf at least has the Valyrian looks. That gift thing is ancient practice from before the abolishment of the Long Night, but even when that was still practiced not every bastard would have been acknowledged.

We can safely say Aegon I never fathered any bastard considering that he may have been infertile. But Aenys I would be a good candidate for a womanizing Targaryen king - but considering his non-confrontational nature and his rather strong-willed wife (Alyssa Velaryon actually asked Maegor whether he was too craven to mount a dragon, and seems to have been one of his major opponents during the succession wars) it is actually quite possible that Aenys never acknowledged any child he fathered on another woman to not offend Alyssa. And while I believe Viserys I never actually cheated on Alicent, I could see him fathering multiple children back in the 90s after his father had become Prince of Dragonstone and they all lived there. Viserys was married to an 11-year-old child bride, hardly a thing you sexually enjoy if you aren't into that type of thing.

Even if TPatQ and TWoIaF gave us all available information on the dragonseeds - which they don't - it is not a necessity to assume that the historians knew whose descendants the dragonseeds was. Especially not if they were descending from multiple unrecognized Targaryen bastards.

 

Corlys and Rhaenys could have sided with Aegon II and the Greens if they felt offended by how Rhaenyra behaved. The fact that they didn't suggests that they knew what kind of man their son had been, and that they didn't blame Rhaenyra for getting the necessary semen elsewhere. Nobody forced the Velaryons into camp Black. Bottom line is that a lot of real world nobles don't care about who fathers their children as long as they have heirs - especially not if they resent the wives they were forced to marry. And if you have a gay son you usually learn quite early that it is quite unlikely that you'll get any grandchildren from him.

 

I find your whole scenario of Dany and Jon on opposing side in all that rather implausible. But if such a scenario comes to pass I really don't see how even Rhaegar's ghost showing up and revealing everything that should suddenly sway all of Daenerys' supporters to Jon Snow's side. You won't survive backing down on that for long. Who is to say the Mother of Dragons would not continue posing a threat to Jon Snow in the eyes of his followers like Maester Aemon did after the Great Council? She can't join the NW, so Dany would most likely have to go to Silent Sisters, right? That's not something she will be even considering... Daenerys never looks back, or she is lost. Those are her words, not mine. She is like Stannis in that regard. She cannot let go of her claim to the Iron Throne after she has taken it - and she will take it, if the original outline is any indication.

 

Legitimized bastards come after trueborn children unless the father says differently. No, they argued that Daeron was the illegitimate son of Aemon the Dragonknight, not the previous king, making Daemon Aegon IV's heir.  

 

No textual evidence? Reread TPaTQ, they were accepted as Velaryons only after Addam mounted Seasmoke, and not before. Mounting the dragon was taken as proof of their heritage by those who didn't know who their father was, especially since Seasmoke was Laenor's dragon, the man Addam claimed to be the son of. Addam was accepted as Velaryon after he mounted a dragon, so that provides precedent. 

 

And you accuse me of no textual evidence. You have nothing to go on for Jace regarding Corlys's thoughts and feelings. Corlys was made Hand by Jace, and was willing to appease him after his spat with Rhaenyra over Rhaenys's death. Except we never get Rhaenyra's thoughts regarding Marilda. No one is mentioned as having questioned the boys' heritage except Mushroom. There is chance Jace may have known about Corlys being their father, but Addam mounting a dragon is what spurred it was Addam mounting a dragon. 

 

Orys Baratheon was an acknowledged bastard, and I doubt Jaehaerys I screwed around on Dragonstone or Daemon given he seldom was there. Also, it's the First Night not the Long Night. Aegon I wasn't infertile just incest made breeding difficult. There is no proof Aenys slept around. Viserys doesn't sound like the kind of guy to sleep around. If he had any bastards they would have been acknowledged given the guy he was. Yet, they all agreed these dragonseeds had "blood of the dragon" by mounting dragons. 

 

Rhaenyra was on Dragonstone next to Driftmark, and their granddaughters were betrothed to her sons. Also, Daemon was previously married to Corlys's daughter, so they were tied to by marriage. Yes, nobles clearly do care who fathers their children as bastards passed off as trueborn children are a potential crisis waiting to happen exemplified by Cersei's children. Nobles want their wives to father their children, that is what dynastic succession is all about. In this society, even if you were gay you were still expected to marry and reproduce. 

 

I don't think you read carefully what I wrote: "I never said it would Jon vs Dany, those are your words not mine."Aemon was Egg's elder brother, ahead of him in succession while Dany is behind Jon in succession. On top of that, few lords would back a woman against a male heir ahead of her in succession in this patriarchal society. while Dany is not an idiot, and can't be used to fight against someone against her will. She won't take it, those who take the direct path won't gain the IT. The original outline is very unreliable as I pointed out before. 

 

 

I don't think Daenerys will go North. That would be strange since that would imply that we got thousands of pages in which the Others are neither breaking the Wall or invading the North by circumventing it. Another whole volume (or even more, considering how the Second Dance plays out) where effectively nothing important happens at the Wall in the Others department would be too much. Thus my guess is that the Others will advance at least to the Neck while Dany and Aegon are fighting their little or big war down in the South.

Hell, perhaps Jon Snow even gets a little Gandalf at the Battle of Five Armies moment there, showing up with the sole survivors from whatever has transpired up in the North during the last battle between Dany and Aegon and slapping some sense into them.

 

The question in regards to the Jon hints is whether they are hints towards his heritage or his eventual station. Those are two different thing. His Targaryen blood may become important in the plot, and he may play a crucial role, but that doesn't mean he has to sit on the throne even if he was the rightful king. People can die and all, even sacrifice them. If this Others thing is supposed to be a big conflict somebody has to die, and the three dragon heads are at the top of that list, Jon Snow more than the other two simply because he has the desire to prove himself and do the right thing.

 

George hasn't hinted at the fact that Jon Snow is alive. He has replied to a question about Jon Snow's death something like 'So you think he is dead, do you?' That doesn't mean he isn't dead, or does it? And strictly speaking he isn't dead considering that Varamyr isn't completely dead yet, either. I do not expect Jon for hanging out in Ghost for the rest of the series but if he did he would still not yet being dead, right? We could even get chapters titled 'Jon' and all in that situation.

 

And Jon taking over another body would actually be quite interesting in regards to the whole blood and magic issue. Would he still have 'special blood and skills' in that case? What are spirits in Martinworld? And so on.

 

Beric's soul/spirit whatever is constantly either restored or brought back from the afterlife by that spell Thoros uses. That wouldn't be the case with Jon Snow's resurrection. Nothing suggests that the fire spell is consuming the body/brain, it is consuming or burning the life energy/soul. But that would be, in my scenario, shielded or safe from the spell because Jon's spirit would be in Ghost and the spell would only resurrect the body, not bring the soul back.

Not to mention that Beric's state only worsened because he was brought back six times. One time may not even affect your personality all that much - perhaps roughly as much as an extended stay in the body of a wolf. Considering that we don't know how long Jon will stay there I'd not be convinced that he'll return to his body tomorrow. People have other things to do right now than bringing him back. Both Bran/Bloodraven and Melisandre. There is also no reason to believe that another skinchanger can push somebody back into his body - if Jon returns into his own body he'll most likely have to do that himself rather than have the wizard do it for him (although I expect Bran to try to teach him how to do it).

 

Not to mention that this whole plot may lead into a completely different direction. Jon could go on some sort of weird spiritual past-exploring journey. Bran could have him leave Ghost and travel to the Lands of Always Winter jumping from heart tree to heart tree or something like that. We know from Varamyr and Bran that you can skinchange the weirwoods - that's how greenseeing works, after all.

 

The Children were making a huge spell when they were causing the Breaking. The mistake there is that anyone is actually sacrificing to the trees. The sacrifices are for the greenseers. They taste the blood, and they grew stronger by that, and then they may be able of doing quite astonishing things. Although it is also possible that the Children used some other type of blood magic that had nothing to do with the weirwoods when they caused the Breaking. They are not necessarily limited to one type of magic.

 

If you expect her to deal with the Others than she will have to go North. She will also have to deal with Stannis who is in the North as well who would contest her claim. I doubt the Northmen would follow her after Stannis's death. I think they would rather go back to their old plan of an independent Kingdom in the North. I think the deciding battle will be at WF given I think that is likely where the last final battle for the War for Dawn was as hinted by the castle's name. The second Dance won't end with Dany and Aegon joining forces, that is unrealistic. The Dance won't end until one of them defeats the other, or rather, until Aegon dies. 

 

There clues pointing to both. The book is full of hints pointing to him as king. They aren't two different things given his heritage is how he would get the IT in the first place. The hints point to him as a king, and I doubt the clear Arthurian parallels are coincidental. Why is he given a secret royal heritage that has been built up so much if it won't go anywhere? GRRM doesn't kill off POV characters who have had fake deaths.

 

Yes, he clearly has. If Jon is dead, then he would have stated so outright. There would be no need to be ambiguous, and lead readers on. Jon would be pretty much dead given his consciousness will dissipate. There is nothing to go on that Jon will go into another body, and it is the same problem, his mind would dissipate. Also, R+L=J wouldn't matter, and which body would he inhabit? He would be doing something that is completely unethical. Bran woke from a  three-month long coma after his fall, Dany did for two weeks after the birth, and Tyrion did for over a week after falling into the Rhoyne. Who is to say Jon won't wake up after a coma? 

 

Beric forgets the name of his betrothed, his castle, etc. He is losing his memory and personality as Cat did. Jon's mind would still be in the same body, and subject to the same effects. He would lose much of his original character. It would be overusing the kiss of fire. Jon would need his body to be healed, so it will need more than just warging. BR would likely show Jon visions relating to the past like his parents' heritage and possibly visions of the future. I have a whole theory developed on it. BR said Bran can see beyond the weirwoods.

 

The rule in this series is that magic has costs, the higher the level of magic, the greater the price/sacrifice. 

 

 

Let's just say I'd be massively surprised if things turned out like you imagine them. Involuntarily diverted magic to heal Jon Snow when the people doing that will have other intentions? Really? I can't see that. Dany did know perfectly well what she was doing and what she was trying to accomplish. She wanted to hatch the dragon eggs, and that's what she did. There is no reason to believe that magic in this world only works if you actually say the proper words. Perhaps it is enough to think the right thoughts, to be the right person, and to do the right things. That clearly worked in Dany's case.

 

We don't have any solid information on the prophecy since we don't have its text, but there is no reason to believe that this Azor Ahai guy is actually reborn since everything we know about the Targaryen version of the prophecy - the one mentioned the three dragon heads - doesn't say anything about a reborn hero. You cannot simply conflate various traditions simply because the people in the series do so - that's their mistake. Perhaps whatever the Asshai'i scrolls says refers to the same guy as the Targaryen prophecy - but perhaps not. Who is to say what's the case while we don't have enough information?

 

The Targaryen sigil is important because it depicts three people - Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys - as one dragon with three heads. This may be a hint to the Targaryen prophecy, it is surely not a coincidence. The idea that there is only one dragon is not supported by the text since it is not clear whether the dragon Rhaegar is mentioning in the vision is actually a person. You just assume that.

 

George's prophecies are usually easy enough to decipher. You don't have to look for hints and vague clues throughout the whole novels to figure something out. Even subtle clues are quite obvious when you catch them. You don't have to build elaborate theories to try to understand the plot of those novels. None of the prophecies that have actually come to pass have been difficult to decipher. Take Cersei, for instance:

 

- numbers of children (literal)

- marrying the king instead of the prince (literal)

- deaths of the children (one third confirmed to be literal)

 

We even have Cersei herself confirming that Margaery isn't the 'younger more beautiful queen' as she herself confirms that Margaery isn't more beautiful than she was or is.

 

The Ghost's prophecies are also quite straightforward, the same is true for the visions and prophecies in the House of the Undying that have come to pass. There are a couple of unclear things left, but that doesn't mean we need to look for the most outlandish explanation to resolve this whole thing.

 

Dany, Jon, and Tyrion (and Bran, Sansa, and Arya) aren't Catelyn or Ned. They aren't characters that are doomed from the beginning, nor are they non-POV characters like Robb. Their stories progress at a much slower pace, they are all build up to contribute something to the grand finale, whereas other characters clearly aren't set up for that. It is not only Jon Snow who is destined for something important. And any author who threw all the savior and special destiny at his readers as George did with Daenerys will better deliver on that rather than coming up with a twist like 'Gotcha, I fooled you all!'

 

Not to mention that a broader scope, the unifying, transcending aspect of peoples and heroes working together to solve this crisis should come up again. This series doesn't have as many POVs as it does for no reason. The Others seem to be threat to everyone, even the Children of the Forest (or else they would not help and train Bran), and the great mistake Marwyn warned people at the end of AFfC may turn out to be to only look for one savior when in fact there will be many (at least three).

 

BranRaven would intentionally heal Jon. That fails to take into account that Dany has no knowledge of magic other than life for life. Aegon V tried to hatch dragon eggs yet at Summerhall many people burned, but not a single egg hatched. Thoughts have nothing to do with magic, Dany isn't magical. Magic isn't easy, but unpredictable for the most part. 

 

The millenia-old text from esoteric Asshai talks about the same hero that is clear. Asshai seems like the right place for such info given it being a place steeped in the occult and sorcery that has been there forever. Maester Aemon says tPtwP and AAR are the same figure so that is confirmation. 

 

It depicts a single dragon with three heads, but it doesn't refer to the prophecy. Who knows, maybe Aegon was thinking about the prophecy, and that was a reason why he incorporated it into the sigil. Whenever a dragon is mentioned in a prophecy it refers to a Targaryen. Grammar supports it, and the text is never explicit regarding prophecy until after the prophesied event occurs. The text supports that a dragon refers to a Targaryen in prophecy. 

 

What you are saying flies in the face of GRRM's own words: Prophecy shouldn't be too literal or too easy. This is a complex story, and you need to look for hints and clues to figure out Jon's true identity as well as Aegon's. Patchface's prophecies have been known to be difficult to decipher. 

 

If Cersie believes that then why is she trying to have Margaery killed when she talks to Qyburn of averting the prophecy? It's explicitly clear Cersie believes Margaery is the younger queen. With Cersei's prhecies, most had already passed by the time we learned of it. The valonqar aspect is less easy to decipher. 

 

The GoHH's prophecies use plenty of metaphor. The prophecies in the HotU weren't obvious until you read ASoS and ADwD. My theory isn't outlandish, but fits with the fact that prophecy uses metaphor and attention to the simple details of singular and plural along with the example of Trios.

 

They aren't being set up for a grand finale, but their own individual finales. This is the same author who had Oberyn spear Gregor to the ground only for Gregor to kill Oberyn and condemn Tyrion to die. The savior and special destiny regarding the prophecy for Dany is the classic red herring. GRRM is never explicit about the prophecy in text in explanation until after the event occurs. Dany is the StMtW, isn't that enough for you?   

 

Everyone has the wrong savior against the Others. I'm not saying Dany won't play a role, but the prophecy doesn't refer to her or Tyrion. 

 

 

Robert stuff:

 

You actually think Robert didn't know what was going on between Rhaegar and Lyanna? I don't think so. Lyanna was a minor at the time she was abducted so every time they had sex one could say it was rape, right? Not to mention that we yet lack textual evidence that Lyanna actually went willingly with Rhaegar - that does not seem to be what has happened.

 

Do you think a craven like Robert would actually have commanded the murder of Rhaenys, Aegon, Rhaella, or Viserys had they been captured alive by his forces? Very unlikely. In fact, a Jon-like scenario could have been what happened to any male Targaryen children taken alive. Viserys and Aegon would have been raised as Robert and Ned's wards, and then been forced to join the NW at an opportune time. There would have been no reason to murder or go to war with Ned over Jon Snow if Robert had found out who the boy actually was. Murdering (royal) children is a heinous crime even in a world as barbaric as Westeros. What happened to Jaehaerys and Maelor during the Dance, and Jaehaera during the Regency was exceptionally brutal - and even an ass like Aegon II actually pardoned the pretender boy king Gaemon Palehair rather than executing him like Trystane Truefyre (this actually makes me think Gaemon may have been Aegon's bastard, with the mother simply being forced to confess that his father was not the king so that Aegon II could spare the boy's life). If things were this civil close to the end of the Dance, I'd not expect Robert to actually murder 2-3 innocent children at the end of his war - it is one thing to not punish criminals and another to actually command a crime.

 

And your idea is hilarious that Drogo wasn't a threat to Robert - if Robert hadn't send assassins after Daenerys, Varys and Illyrio would have sent their own assassins making Drogo believe it was Robert (or found another way to convince him to invade Westeros - that was the plan, and Robert wasn't stupid enough to realize what a threat a Targaryen pretender could be to his dynasty).

 

Ned forced Jon to join the NW. Jon asked his uncle about it when he was drunk, but if you read carefully between the lines it is quite clear that once Ned has decided that he would go to KL there was no longer a place for Jon at Winterfell, and thus he didn't have much of a choice there. Catelyn makes it clear that she wouldn't suffer his presence at the castle in Ned's absence, and Ned himself says that when the time comes he'll tell Jon himself that he has to take the black. That's how that chapter ends. Later, in Bran's fall chapter we learn from Bran that Jon is sullen and angry, suggesting that his father had told him that his happy days are inevitably over.

I know that technically no one can be forced to take the black - criminals can choose between swearing the vow and accepting the punishment for their crimes. Normal volunteers can leave until they have sworn the vow yet Jon Snow wouldn't be welcome back home in Winterfell in any case - that much his father apparently made clear to him.

 

It is a pity that we lack a POV for that important conversation but clearly Ned didn't tell Jon Snow who he actually was nor did he offer him the choice to accompany him with Arya and Sansa to KL (since one imagines that Jon would have taken that choice rather than the Wall thing if it had been offered to him).

He thought Rhaegar abducted her by force. Don't apply modern standards to a place where girls as young as ten are married off to grown men. The evidence doesn't point to her being kidnapped, or Ned would not have thought of Rhaegar as a decent guy. This whole thread has pointed out that she likely went willingly.

 

This is the same Robert who said he should have killed Dany and Viserys when they were still kids on Dragonstone. It was Arryn who convinced Robert to leave them alone. Robert is not a craven towards enemies of his house. Jon Arryn would have urged those things as well as Ned. Ned is holding the Targaryen heir, a threat to Robert's dynasty. His enemies would seek to use Jon, like the Martells. Tristan wasn't a member of the dynasty Aegon II's family overthrew, and he didn't have a claim to the IT. Not murder innocents? This is the same guy who tried to have a pregnant 14 year-old girl killed. Ned had known Robert for over a decade by the time he found Jon. He knows Robert, and do you think that if he knew Robert wouldn't hurt the boy he would hide Jon from him? 

 

In that scenario, then the enemy wasn't Drogo, but Varys and Illyrio.  

 
Ned didn't force Jon. It was Jon's idea, and he didn't decide Jon had no place at WF, that was Cat. He wouldn't push Jon into doing something like this against his will. He knew Jon wanted to take the black, and Cat had no problem with it. Jon was likely angry from being excluded from things such as the high table and sitting all the way in the back, not being allowed to train at swords with princes and being excluded from hunting with the king, thinking it had to do with his bastard status. The first and third had more to do with Ned wanting to keep Jon away from Robert. Jon knew Robb would welcome him back while Ned was in KL. 

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Yes--Dany has been told Viserys' romantic story and she believes it. But that doesn't mean this is what happened with Lyanna and Rhaegar, only that Dany believes it's what happened. 

 
Absolutely true, but when we combine the Targaryen version of the events with multiple clues of people who rebel against their Lord's or their father's wishes in marriage, and Lyanna's explicit reservations about Robert, and add the strangely absent call by Brandon for his sister's return, as well as other clues we get a convincing case, in my opinion, that the author is pointing us in this direction. I don't offer the above quote as proof this is true, but as one more in a long line of clues to show an observant reader that it is likely this was not a "kidnapping." It is important to remember that while we have Robert's view of what happened stated up front as the truth, the author has gone to great lengths to lay multiple clues to undermine this version, and to tell us that this may well not be the truth. It becomes hard not to see, in a work of fiction, that the hidden clues are telling us the real story. In short, Viserys's "romantic story" is more believable than Robert's delusions.

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SFDanny,

 

things are still unclear how things worked out with the abduction - my guess is that Lyanna wasn't in on the whole thing (else there wouldn't have been an abduction - which there seems to have been - rather than her eloping her guardians and running away) but (eventually) was happy with the outcome. Considering that Daenerys herself has already been forced into a marriage in which she was raped multiple times (which still turned out to be 'fine' for her) her taking on being forcefully rescued by some guy from her second marriage may be somewhat different that 14-15-year-old Lyanna back in 282 AC.

 

Fire Eater,

 

do you have any textual evidence for your claim about where legitimized bastards come in the line of succession in regards to trueborn children? I don't remember such a line but if a legitimation is a true legitimation then a legitimized bastard is, for all intents and purposes, a trueborn child after he/she has been legitimized, which should mean that where he/she comes in the line of succession should be totally dependent on who is the elder, no? I don't remember George establishing it that legitimized come always after the trueborn children.

 

Addam/Alyn:

 

The text states that they were legitimized after Addam mounted the dragon and Alyn failed to mount a dragon. You claim they were legitimized because Addam mounted a dragon (and ignore Alyn's failure in the process). Your assumption that there is a causal relation - Addam becoming a dragonrider causes the legitimation of the brothers - isn't supported by the text. The brothers were Corlys' sons, and he and Jace may have pushed Rhaenyra to legitimize them even if Addam hadn't become a dragonrider - simply to have spare Velaryon/Targaryen heirs at hand should something happen to him and/or his brothers in the coming battles. Other people's believes on the parentage of the boys is irrelevant - Jace and Corlys had direct access to the grieving Queen Regnant, and effectively calling the shots at that time anyway (with Jace acting in Robb-like way, and Corlys serving as Hand of the Queen).

 

Orys Baratheon wasn't Aerion's acknowledged bastard. There were rumors that this was the case, or rather, that he was Aegon's bastard brother. That's it.

 

I did not say Jaehaerys I had any bastards, have I? But even that's a possibility considering that there was a First Quarrel between him and Alysanne that led to a period of separation prior to the Second Quarrel. I imagine that either Alysanne or Jaehaerys (or both) having a public affair may have been what caused this. And Aegon I may indeed have been infertile since nothing suggests that either Rhaenys or Visenya were ever pregnant before they gave birth to Aenys and Maegor, respectively - and by that time they had been married for over a decade or more. I don't think Daemon is an ancestor of Hugh or Ulf (but he could be Nettles' father). Candidates for Targaryen ancestors of the dragonseeds living after the Conquest include Aenys I (who was a womanizer in his youth, unlike Maegor - the detail for that come from 'The Sons of the Dragon'), Prince Aemon and Prince Baelon (Aemon only had Rhaenys with Jocelyn - it is entirely likely he fathered lots of bastards on various women in the wake of his wife's death - the same goes for Baelon), Viserys and the mystery prince Aegon, Viserys and Daemon's younger brother, as well as Viserys himself. Again, Prince Viserys was married to an 11-year old girl in 93 AC while he was sixteen. If I was in his position I'd look for fun elsewhere. And it seems that he may have had an affair with Alicent while Aemma was still alive (and pregnant with the son whose birth then killed her).

 

The Cersei crisis is different from the Targaryens during the dragon days. Cersei cheated on the king, but Rhaenyra may have 'cheated on Laenor' with the latter's permission and consent. Laenor was the son of the richest man of Westeros and a former pretender to the Iron Throne - and he was very much gay, and possibly not willing to ever marry prior to the Rhaenyra offer. Do we have to assume that a man like Laenor had any interest to ever share the bed of his wife because 'society and his family expected that'? No, we don't. Countless monarchs and nobles in the past refused to have intimate relations with wives they abhorred or despised, regardless of what effects that had on the succession - Frederick the Great or Queen Victoria's uncles are good examples for this. And in the series itself we have Rhea Royce and Daemon Targaryen as well as Stannis Baratheon and Selyse Florent.

 

Winterfell is a rather unlikely place for any decisive battle against the Others simply because it is unlikely that all the people will rush North to help these guys out if they aren't likely to believe stories about the Others until they have hard evidence. As soon as the Wall falls the North will be lost simply because there too few people there to do oppose to Others.

Not to mention that we don't know how long Stannis will last - if Daenerys causes his downfall, then his men may very well join her thereafter.

 

George can easily kill off Jon Snow in the final battle without allowing him ever to sit on the Iron Throne. Being the rightful king doesn't mean you'll ever sit the throne. At least not in that world. Especially if Jon Snow were to reject that destiny in favor to sacrifice himself to save all of humanity or something like that. If he is the prophesied savior I expect that to happen - and this series doesn't have an afterlife King's Cross station from where you can come back...

 

In my book, Jon Snow would be dead yet if only his body is dead and his spirit is trapped in Ghost. He would only be dead when the last remnant of his human self is gone.

 

Your claim that the fire magic continually consumes or burns memory or identity of the resurrected people if they are only resurrected one time (or only their body was resurrected this way and they later reclaimed it via skinchanging) is unsupported by the text. Beric only didn't remember the name of his betrothed and stuff after he had come back six times.

 

Well, Daenerys' magic worked when she was only thinking stuff, right? She intentionally hatched the dragon eggs. We don't know what happened at Summerhall - Aegon V may have made a mistake or his ritual may have been sabotaged. And who knows - perhaps the eggs hatched but the dragons were killed in the wildfire inferno? We know that high temperatures can even kill dragons.

 

Maester Aemon has never been to Asshai or read the scrolls there, right? That he and Melisandre believe stuff doesn't mean it is true, right? Especially not if Aemon believes Daenerys is the promised princess ;-). I'm sure both Melisandre and Aemon believe that both prophecies (or what they know about them) refer to the same hero, but who is to say that either of their beliefs is accurate?

 

Daenerys dreamed about a literal Drogon multiple times in AGoT. Reread the chapters. And just because something appeared to be rule in this series for quite some time there is no reason to believe the rules cannot change. Until Daenerys hatched the dragon eggs all Targaryens trying to do such a things were considered to be mad, and it was considered that this could never ever work - but if you have an open mind this put things into a completely different perspective. It is not completely impossible that the others could have succeeded or that Aerion or Aerys could actually have transformed themselves into actual dragons with the right spell and knowledge.

 

Not sure if all of Patches ramblings are prophecies - some of them are, others may not be. Not everything is a prophecy. The Red Wedding vision in the House of the Undying and the Ghost's prophecies were pretty straightforward, right?

 

Cersei makes herself believe Margaery is the one but there is a clue in AFfC that she herself does not believe Margaery was ever more beautiful than she was (and Cersei is still a beauty despite having gained some weight) thus making it clear that the queen of the prophecy isn't Margaery. There is a reason why Daenerys never comes up once in Cersei's chapters in AFfC or ADwD, right?

 

Unless valonqar is suddenly referring to everybody and their grandmother's younger brother or some elaborate metaphor for who knows what it is either referring to Tyrion or Jaime - most likely to Jaime, since he has subtly been introduced as Cersei's younger brother. See, not all that difficult.

 

The outlandish thing is that you use this Trios guy as a key element to understand the story.

 

Oberyn was never a main character of this series, and Tyrion didn't die in the process. George could have skipped the whole trial-by-combat episode and still have ended the ASoS the same way - Varys and Jaime arranging his escape, and the subsequent murder of Shae and Tywin.

There aren't any red herrings in this story I can remember, nor are there deliberate attempts to deceive or confuse the readers. Characters misremember stuff or make mistakes, but that's it. There are never false revelations of mysteries. Take Jon Arryn's murder, for instance. While certain characters believe 'the Lannisters' (Cersei/Tyrion) are behind that, the clues to the actual culprit are there since AGoT. My own mother figured that one out when she read the first book. But George never gave us a sort of preliminary conclusion to 'the murder investigation' having an honest POV give us his line of reasoning why he has reason to think that character A did it for this and that reason. Instead, the thing remained a mystery until Lysa explained everything to us in ASoS.

 

And the series is clearly going to have a grand finale connecting all the plot threads still left dangling at that point. Of course, not everybody will be alive to see the grand finale, but many characters will. At least that's what George said in his original outline - and I'm believing that this series is supposed to end with a unified finale rather than people facing death in their own individual dead ends.

 

In Lyanna's case willingly isn't a clear thing. If Rhaegar hadn't informed her about his intentions, and if she was anything like Arya she may have been outspokenly and violently against her abduction even if she was actually in love with Rhaegar. Simply because she didn't want to be treated like a docile girl. Not to mention that she may have decided not to give in to her feelings for Rhaegar until her forced her to. Just like Drogo coerced Dany into enjoying having sex with him - at least that first time. If you push the physical buttons of a person you get a certain response - especially if that person is actually physically attracted to you and wants to have sex with you.

 

Ned never thinks of Rhaegar as a decent guy just that he don't think he had frequented brothels. Ned most certainly can think of Rhaegar this way even if Rhaegar had abducted his sister if Lyanna herself (or somebody knowing her heart) later had told him the full story. And it is quite clear that Robert remained Ned's best friend despite the fact that he had killed Rhaegar, right?

 

Ned may have had other motives besides Jon's security. He may have intended to protect the honor of House Stark by removing any evidence that Lyanna Stark had been Rhaegar Targaryen's willing whore. It doesn't seem as if Ned's children were told by their father that Lyanna Stark was married to Rhaegar - despite the fact that this would have been widely known if it ever happened simply because Rhaegar had no reason to keep it a secret after he returned from the tower.

 

As to Jon's feelings - reread the chapters again. First ending of the Catelyn chapter where Jon's fate is decided which concludes with Ned's announcement that he'll tell the boy himself but only when the time is right - which hasn't yet happened in the Arya chapter where they watch the boys in the yard. But in the Bran chapter shortly before Robert plans to set out back to KL it has happened. And Jon Snow is angry then.

 

The deal Ned gave Jon would have been the following - 'You entertain the idea of joining the Night's Watch. That's a good idea because that's what you are going to do. I will not take you with me to court, and in my absence there is no place for you at Winterfell. You can either join the Night's Watch or try to make a living of your own. Have a nice day.'

 

Jon may have suspected that Catelyn was behind the 'there is no place for you at Winterfell in my absence' thing but Ned wouldn't have told him that. And if you reread the Catelyn chapter Ned is at first against the NW idea because Jon is too young (and presumably because he isn't his son) but he doesn't fight very much there. Surely that would have been an ideal opportunity to tell Catelyn the truth about Jon Snow (later, when Luwin was gone again) to convince her to let him remain at Winterfell. Yet that didn't happen - and neither did Ned tell Jon himself who he was so that he could make the decision to join the NW while he actually knew who he was.

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Wtf is this? 
 
So you say that when a producer says to his fans: JS = dead, you still have some doubts. But when he says it to the 'President of the United States of America' is has to be true AND there is no way that JS won't 'revive' (in one way or another). That's bullshit. 

agreed....they wouldnt tell Anyone!! Not even him!! Anyway jon IS dead which is the whole point...but somehow he will be back but changed from the character we know

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Fire Eater,

 

do you have any textual evidence for your claim about where legitimized bastards come in the line of succession in regards to trueborn children? I don't remember such a line but if a legitimation is a true legitimation then a legitimized bastard is, for all intents and purposes, a trueborn child after he/she has been legitimized, which should mean that where he/she comes in the line of succession should be totally dependent on who is the elder, no? I don't remember George establishing it that legitimized come always after the trueborn children.

 

I don't remember anything in the books either, but there is this supporting your position: 

 

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

 

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. 

 

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents/

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SFDanny,

 

things are still unclear how things worked out with the abduction - my guess is that Lyanna wasn't in on the whole thing (else there wouldn't have been an abduction - which there seems to have been - rather than her eloping her guardians and running away) but (eventually) was happy with the outcome. Considering that Daenerys herself has already been forced into a marriage in which she was raped multiple times (which still turned out to be 'fine' for her) her taking on being forcefully rescued by some guy from her second marriage may be somewhat different that 14-15-year-old Lyanna back in 282 AC.

 

It all depends on which way those sword points where pointed, doesn't it, my friend? The daughter of a High Lord, and the betrothed of another High Lord, doesn't travel without an escort even in those less complicated times before the "kidnapping." If Rhaegar and his companions are pointing their swords at Lyanna's escort, and not at Lyanna, then we have one thing, and if they are pointed at Lyanna we have another.

 

Seriously, my point, not to belabor it, wasn't that all is clear now what happened when Rhaegar and Lyanna meet, but that there are clues, including the story Daenerys believes true, that support an escape instead of a kidnapping. I'm persuaded by those clues that is the direction the story is heading, but that doesn't mean I think Martin has left no doubt. He clearly has more to say on the subject. Others seem to have reached another conclusion than I do, and I was attempting to throw some things into the discussion for people to ponder. I know we disagree on this, or rather I think we do, but thinking over the information, all of it, is always to the good.

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Well, Fire Eater seems to have a very rigid view on how things are supposed to be regardless whether he has any reason to do so.

 

We can all agree that it is quite unlikely that Jon Snow would not try to usurp the place of his trueborn brothers, but you have to have either a huge ego or some deep special insight into the psyche of fictitious characters to actually claim she would never claim the Iron Throne for herself in Jon's place. Or to claim she would only fight against Aegon if she had reason to doubt his parentage.

 

Not to mention that ten-year-old Rhaenyra Targaryen didn't speak up upon the day of Aegon's birth in this fashion:

 

'Papa, you now have to name brother Aegy Heir Apparent and Prince of Dragonstone in my place since all the laws and customs of Westeros dictate that trueborn sons have to always come before mere daughters. Besides, we all know your own claim comes from the fact that great-grandpapa Jaery passed over Auntie Rhaenys back before my birth, and then you and strong Uncle Daemon later schemed with Grandpapa Otto convince the Lords to send girlish Cousin Laenor back to Driftmark to play with his dolls. And you don't want to make Mommy Alice unhappy, do you?'

 

If you have claimed the throne you either go through with it or you die. This setting can't suffer any abdications - especially during war times. Secret princes either win their wars, too, or they join the teams of existing pretenders to eventually end up on the throne as their heirs/consorts/whatever, but the story doesn't suddenly turn on its head to accompany those who look forward to the clichéd ending.

 

SfDanny,

 

no real disagreement there. My main point there is merely that I think Lyanna - as the great rider she was - would have been able to escape any guards she had all by herself had she been in on the whole plan. I'm entertaining the possibility of Lyanna and Rhaegar actually having a more Drogo-Dany-like love story (with the possibility of Jon actually be a child of rape) but that's not something I fully buy myself.

 

I'm completely in agreement that there are hints of a more romantic reading but I'd prefer it if in that scenario the wolf-blooded and passionate Lyanna was actually trying to do her duty (marrying Robert) while the always dutiful and melancholic Rhaegar did the one rash decision of his life, and then everyone paid for it. Like a variation of the tragic Doran-Mellario love story.

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I'd rather say that some aspects of honour were very important to her, such as standing up for the weak (just like Jon did for Sam). However, the characteristics that the honourable Ned isn't honourable but wild and wilful, and the latter aspect is again confirmed by Meera's story, not easy to refuse. Time and again, we see her not submitting herself with defiance but circumventing the rules which she didn't like to do what she wanted to do. Eloping with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert would very much be in line here.

 

BTW, this line has caught my attention:

 

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle (of Faces)

 

It has been speculated before that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have stayed on the isle for some time, as well - never actually leaving the place where she was staying (HH), just like the Stark maiden in Bael's story, and if I understand correctly, it was still winter when Rhaegar "fell upon Lyanna".

 

 

 

All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle

Unfortunately, we don't know when exactly winter ended. It could have already been spring.

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Unfortunately, we don't know when exactly winter ended. It could have already been spring.

 

In the real world, that's hard enough to tell for a region. Let alone a whole continent. Westeros has got the Citadel though, they would be the authority in that respect. Still, a princeling and his entourage camping in the wild apart from any castle might need a bit of luck to spot white ravens flying.

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In the real world, that's hard enough to tell for a region. Let alone a whole continent. Westeros has got the Citadel though, they would be the authority in that respect. Still, a princeling and his entourage camping in the wild apart from any castle might need a bit of luck to spot white ravens flying.

You're missing my point :) When 282 AC started, it was still winter. Imo, everything points to Lyanna having disappeared in the second half of the year. Winter had already lasted for two years before, with a few months of milder weather (false spring).

 

By the time we reach mid-284 AC, it is summer. It might have been summer for a full year, we don't know. Nor can we tell.

 

Looking at Tyrion's explanation of 9 winters he had known in his lifetime by 298 AC, the one he was born (273 AC) in being the first, we reach winters of a length of 2 to 3 years. So it could easily have been the case that, by the time Lyanna disappeared months after the last moment we know it was still winter, it was no longer winter, but spring.

 

That, you can notice by the weather. You wouldn't need to spot a raven. Howland knew when to leave whilst on the Isle..

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