Ygrain Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 it is known Ned arrived with Jon from Dorne Is it? Cersei's is the only PoV suggesting that much, but given that she has some gross inconsistencies there (suggesting fighting in Dorne when this never happened) I tend not to give too much credit to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Fire Eater, well, I'd hope that Corlys Velaryon knew the boys were his if he was the one who fathered them - and by the way, that is pretty much given considering to what lengths Corlys later goes to protect Addam from Rhaenyra's wrath. He'd do that for a son but not necessarily for one of his own son's bastards. Not to mention that he later also arranges the marriage between his granddaughter Baela and Alyn, subsequently naming Alyn heir to Driftmark in the process (that's what I assume, at least, it makes no sense to assume that Alyn would have been allowed to marry Baela and become Lord of Driftmark if Corlys hadn't arranged all that in the first year of the Regency. If I get the thing right - I've written some longer posts on Alyn Velaryon and Corlys over there in the Cregan Stark thread in TWoIaF forum - then Jacaerys, Marilda, and Corlys came up with the idea to legitimize Addam and Alyn as Laenor's bastards rather than Corlys' to give Corlys' heirs of his own body (and subsequently tricking Joffrey Velaryon, Jace's younger brother, out of Driftmark - which would be why Rhaenyra was reluctant to go through with it) while, in turn, Jace and Rhaenyra profited from the whole arrangement in the sense that it dealt a blow to the 'Strong story' since Laenor fathering bastards would make it appear more likely that he was also the father of Rhaenyra's sons. Considering that Princess Rhaenys - the only reason why Corlys never acknowledged the Hull boys as his sons - was already dead when they were legitimized there was no real reason to not legitimize them as Corlys' sons. That is, if the purpose wasn't to put Addam and Alyn before Joffrey in the succession to Driftmark. Technically, Corlys' younger sons should come after Laenor and his sons. This whole thing was no 'trial'. Marilda of Hull knew pretty well who the father of her sons was, and this is why she sent them to Dragonstone to try to mount a dragon. As Laenor's half-brother Addam had no trouble with Seasmoke, but Alyn failed to mount Sheepstealer because the dragon wasn't accustomed to the presence of humans - that didn't disprove his heritage in the process. You don't have to be particularly original to try to dismiss the 'Jon Snow is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son' story - Dany claiming he could be a descendant of Aegon the Unworthy on his mother's side would be just one of them. Perhaps the Daynes also have a drop of Targaryen blood? If Ashara was Jon's mother he could have Targaryen blood through her (that is actually not completely unlikely since the Targaryens considered Dyanna Dayne a worthy match for Prince Maekar, and a descendant of Maron and Daenerys could easily have married into House Dayne). The whole Melisandre talk in ADwD makes it quite likely that Jon will soon have to explore his full potential as a skinchanger. That will, I suppose, become crucial for his resurrection/return into his own body. Varamyr seemed to believe you lose your skinchanging ability if you are permanently trapped in an animal skin (or human skin) but that may not be the case. The assumption that Bran will be able to push Jon back into his body isn't all that convincing to me - he most likely will explain him what to do, but I guess he'll have to do the deed himself. That Jon Snow is a warg is pretty well-known at the Wall, though. If he realizes his skinchanger abilities are important in the coming war - gathering information, attacking the wights, etc. could all be done by using animals - he surely will explore all that. Else George would have dropped the skinchanger element for Jon and Arya. We don't know how long Ned Stark was down there. There may be more to 'the last battles of the war' than we presently know - but anyone trying to discredit Jon Snow's heritage won't care about those details. He'll only be accepted as a Targaryen if a Targaryen accepts him. Just as Aegon will get into trouble if Dany publicly rejects him, Jon Snow won't be able to convince anyone of his heritage if the Targaryen queen ignores or dismisses him. The Howland Reed question is important if we believe the man knows stuff about prophecy, though. Surely the savior should know that he is the savior to become the savior/do saviorly stuff? Howland keeping his mouth shut could be a sign that he is never going to talk to Jon about that - unless Jon is going to push him about that. My guess is that Bran is going to tell Jon about his true parents, not Howland Reed or anybody else, and Jon will then later confront Howland Reed as to why his so-called father never found the courage to tell him the truth. I think Jojen and Meera knowing is hinted at by the fact that they are quite irritated/surprised by the fact that Bran doesn't know the story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. That would be part of the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar which would end with Jon Snow's birth - and they seemed to assume that Ned Stark told his children/Bran who they half-brother actually was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crippledtank Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If Jon rides a dragon I'll cry.... Sure Jon's flying off and having the time of his life.... While ghost can only sit back and watch as the man who was part of him flies off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the tower of albion Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Howland knows too much about the Future... Via Jojen's Dreams... Do you think Howland's people intercepted Ned's bones and they seemed to of vanished? Maybe that's how he's introduced in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If Jon rides a dragon I'll cry.... Sure Jon's flying off and having the time of his life.... While ghost can only sit back and watch as the man who was part of him flies off At the sunset... Jon Snow turned away. The last light of the sun had begun to fade. He watched the cracks along the Wall go from red (Targaryen) to grey (Stark) to black (NW), from streaks of fire to rivers of black ice. The sun will rise again, and as it rises, Jon's color will awake in Red with the knowledge of Fire and Blood. Before you came Meereen was dying. Our rulers were old men with withered cocks and crones whose puckered cunts were dry as dust. They sat atop their pyramids sipping apricot wine and talking of the glories of the Old Empire whilst the centuries slipped by and the very bricks of the city crumbled all around them. Custom and caution had an iron grip upon us till you awakened us with fire and blood. **You know nothing = asleep **Fire and Blood = awake The dragons did not like the rain. A thin red slash marked the eastern horizon where the sun might soon appear. It reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain. Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Addam of Hull didn't prove his heritage by mounting a dragon. Corlys Velaryon and Marilda of Hull, the mother of the brothers, claimed that the boys were Laenor's bastards, and Jacaerys Velaryon and Corlys Velaryon then convinced Rhaenyra to legitimize them - and she did need convincing for that despite the fact that Addam had claimed Laenor's dragon Seasmoke. Note that Alyn of Hull failed to mount a dragon yet he, too, was legitimized by Rhaenyra's decree, and subsequently became Lord of Driftmark as Laenor's son after Corlys' death in 132 AC. The other dragonseeds weren't adopted into House Targaryen, though - which could, of course, have been done since the theory was that you had to have Targaryen blood to become a dragonrider. Even if it was unknown from which Targaryen they descended - one of the sons of Jaehaerys I, or all the way back to womanizing Aenys I, or even to the Targaryens before the Conquest - it would have been obvious to anyone on Dragonstone that the dragonseeds must be distant Targaryen cousins. I don't think that Jon Snow claiming a dragon has to prove anything. In fact, considering that he is a skinchanger, too, there might be a chance that he could use that ability to bend a dragon to his will regardless whether the beast has a rider at that time or not. Right now we don't know yet if skinchangers can control dragons - but if they can, then Targaryen blood will become rather irrelevant in the dragonriding department simply because a powerful greenseer like Bran could end up controlling all three dragons. Even if skinchangers can't do the trick, we don't know whether that's a known fact or not - if not, then Jon claiming a dragon could be completely attributed to his skinchanger abilities - especially if he has become a second Varamyr by that point, having half a dozen different animals in his thrall. Not to mention that, of course, mounting a dragon isn't going to vouch for Jon Snow's legitimate birth even if people see it as proof of Targaryen blood. Ned Stark surely could have fathered the child on a female bastard of, say, Aerys II, or a female descendant of one of the Unworthy's many bastards. While I came to believe that it is very likely that Lyanna and Rhaegar did indeed marry publicly the important thing that it is as of yet unknown whose son Jon Snow actually is. In addition, there were those on Dragonstone who tried to claim a dragon without having dragonsblood. Whatever the people in Westeros believe about dragonriding, that it is for Targaryens only doesn't seem to be all that widely believed. Otherwise, men like Steffon Darklyn wouldn't had risked their lives. In addition, according to Gyldayn, it seems to be the case that being a Targaryen is not always a garantee that claiming a dragon will work. So, I doubt it will be as simple for Jon as to claim a dragon. In addition, Jon willl learn of his parentage, and thus we as readers as well, but will the rest of Westeros ever learn? And in that light we have to ask ourselves why the hell Howland Reed is keeping his mouth shut? Ned died in AGoT, and Howland sent his two children to Winterfell back in ACoK. He had more than enough time to send messengers or letters to Castle Black to inform Jon Snow about his true heritage - hell, Jojen or Meera could have tried to make a detour with the other sibling waiting with Bran elsewhere to inform Jon Snow about the whole thing. Or, even better, they could have told Samwell who then, in turn, could have told Jon upon his return to Castle Black. They surely know more than they told Bran when they told him the tale about the Laughing Tree. On the other - Howland's inaction regarding the revelation of the Jon Snow heritage may be explained by him being forced to keep quiet about the boy. It may be that Howland was commanded by Ned Stark to keep quiet about Jon, and he honors that promise/vow. Considering how thoroughly Ned Stark kept the secret from his own family it is quite likely that he expected Howland to do the same. Shortly after Ned died, Jon took his vows. Whatever Howland would reveal, it would impact Jon.. Jon couldn't do anything, sworn to the NW. So perhaps Howland kept quiet in order to prevent Jon from breaking his NW vows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Whatever the people in Westeros believe about dragonriding, that it is for Targaryens only doesn't seem to be all that widely believed. Otherwise, men like Steffon Darklyn wouldn't had risked their lives. Oh, I have said this thousands of times in A+J=T threads but people believe what they want to believe :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 In addition, there were those on Dragonstone who tried to claim a dragon without having dragonsblood. Whatever the people in Westeros believe about dragonriding, that it is for Targaryens only doesn't seem to be all that widely believed. Otherwise, men like Steffon Darklyn wouldn't had risked their lives. In addition, according to Gyldayn, it seems to be the case that being a Targaryen is not always a garantee that claiming a dragon will work. So, I doubt it will be as simple for Jon as to claim a dragon. In addition, Jon willl learn of his parentage, and thus we as readers as well, but will the rest of Westeros ever learn? Shortly after Ned died, Jon took his vows. Whatever Howland would reveal, it would impact Jon.. Jon couldn't do anything, sworn to the NW. So perhaps Howland kept quiet in order to prevent Jon from breaking his NW vows? It was war and desperate times call for desperate measures. Just because some "brave" men were willing to risk death to try to mount a dragon without Targ blood does not mean that people did not generally believe that Targ blood was necessary. Notice that none of the men without Targ blood successfully mounted a dragon. And these were supposedly "worthy" men. So any lingering doubt about whether Targ blood was necessary was likely dispelled by those failed attempts. And of course being a Targ is not a guarantee of being able to bond with a dragon. I think everyone agrees on that point -- it really is beside the point. The point is that everyone who has bonded with a dragon seems to be accepted as having Targ blood (Nettles was assumed by the maesters to have Targ blood). But I agree that Jon mounting a dragon would not alone prove he is the son of Rhaegar -- and would say nothing about whether Rhaegar married Lyanna. But if word got out that some people were suggesting that Jon really was the son of Rhaegar -- and THEN Jon mounted a dragon -- I think a lot of doubters about the identity of his father would come around. But the rumors of Rhaegar as Jon's father would have to have to spread FIRST for the dragon mounting to be seen as meaningful supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Rhaenys, well, my guess actually is that Steffon Darkyln and Gormon Massey had Targaryen blood. Else it would be very weird that Rhaenyra would risk the life of her Lord Commander of the Queensguard in what she would consider a doomed attempt - she made it quite clear that she didn't think Lord Celtigar could claim one of the riderless dragons back when the Black Council was formed. The Darklyns are the best candidates for a pre-Conquest Targaryen-Westerosi match involving a spare daughter/cousin considering that Duskendale was the biggest harbor on the eastern shore of Westeros at that time. And the Masseys are very close to the Targaryens even before the Conquest - suggesting that they may be close kin, either through a Targaryen or a Velaryon marriage. And Justin Massey still has 'pale hair'. And we still don't know with which houses Aerea and Rhalla ended up with, or whether Rhaena took a third husband. Both the Darklyns and the Masseys are good candidates for that considering that they were very stalwart Targaryen loyalists in the early days. Howland stuff: If the man has no clue about the prophecies there is no reason for him to talk. But if he knows about/believes in the promised prince prophecy he should be talking to Jon. Especially considering that the boy would be at the perfect spot to deal with the Others if he was the promised prince. And considering that he'd know that Maester Aemon was Jon Snow's great-great-granduncle in any case him not writing a letter to Aemon about this is very odd indeed. It will be Howland's fault that these two could never embrace each other as long-lost relatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 It was war and desperate times call for desperate measures. Just because some "brave" men were willing to risk death to try to mount a dragon without Targ blood does not mean that people did not generally believe that Targ blood was necessary. Notice that none of the men without Targ blood successfully mounted a dragon. And these were supposedly "worthy" men. So any lingering doubt about whether Targ blood was necessary was likely dispelled by those failed attempts. The rewards promised for claiming a dragon were quite large, but if you are aware that you do not have the correct blood to succeed, why would you risk your life? Why step in front of a dragon, knowing that you are going to lose that battle? Unless you believe that there might be a chance... The men and women who failed could not proof any Targaryen ancestry.. The same goes for all those who did succeed, with Addam of Hull as the only exception. Did Nettles have dragonblood? Hugh the Hammer? Ulf the White? That has never been proven. Meanwhile, (assuming they indeed are fullblood brothers) whatever blood Addam had which allowed him to succeed, it allowed Alyn to fail, which is a fact that should not be overlooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Rhaenys, well, my guess actually is that Steffon Darkyln and Gormon Massey had Targaryen blood. Else it would be very weird that Rhaenyra would risk the life of her Lord Commander of the Queensguard in what she would consider a doomed attempt - she made it quite clear that she didn't think Lord Celtigar could claim one of the riderless dragons back when the Black Council was formed. She does not give a reason why she thinks that Lord Celtigar would not be able to fly a dragon. Was he a very old man, for example? In addition, the Celtigars have the blood of Old Valyria. They would have stood a better chance than most. Howland stuff: If the man has no clue about the prophecies there is no reason for him to talk. But if he knows about/believes in the promised prince prophecy he should be talking to Jon. Especially considering that the boy would be at the perfect spot to deal with the Others if he was the promised prince. And considering that he'd know that Maester Aemon was Jon Snow's great-great-granduncle in any case him not writing a letter to Aemon about this is very odd indeed. It will be Howland's fault that these two could never embrace each other as long-lost relatives. Howland might not know about the prophecy. Even if he doesn't know, what good would it do to reveal to Jon who his father and mother were? Ned kept those secrets for fifteen years, wouldn't it be kind of odd to spill the beans the second after he died? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Meanwhile, (assuming they indeed are fullblood brothers) whatever blood Addam had which allowed him to succeed, it allowed Alyn to fail, which is a fact that should not be overlooked. They have a "theory" called right drop of dragonblood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Meanwhile, (assuming they indeed are fullblood brothers) whatever blood Addam had which allowed him to succeed, it allowed Alyn to fail, which is a fact that should not be overlooked. They were twins, no? I don't think there's any doubt that they were full brothers. I don't think the fact that one succeeded and one failed really tells us much. We are told that even for a Targaryen approaching a strange dragon is a risky proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 They were twins, no? I don't think there's any doubt that they were full brothers. I don't think the fact that one succeeded and one failed really tells us much. We are told that even for a Targaryen approaching a strange dragon is a risky proposition. They are only called brothers, never twins. Despite it not being canon, the MUSH makes Alyn two years younger than Addam. If they had indeed been twins, MUSH 2.0 would have corrected for such, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I agree that it is possible that Lord Celtigar was either particularly old or particularly craven so that Rhaenyra was making a different point when she suggested that he wouldn't claim a dragon. On the other hand, it could have been a way to reinforce that only Targaryens were worthy of riding dragons regardless of the actual potential simply because they were a tool to ensure Targaryen dominance. By that time Rhaenyra wasn't yet willing to entertain the notion to find additional riders for the six riderless dragons. But I'm pretty convinced the actual nobles answering Jace's call had enough knowledge to only try to claim a dragon if they knew they had at least a drop of Targaryen blood through a distant ancestor. Darklyn and Massey were in Rhaenyra's councils and thus educated enough to know how the learned men - and the Targaryen family - thought about this matter. I could see more ignorant/poorer men trying to claim a dragon to win the reward and gaining fame but the nobles close to Rhaenyra shouldn't be that stupid. The fact that Nettles, Hugh, and Ulf had success would later have convinced people that there was little or nothing to the belief that Targaryen blood was important - as neither Nettles nor the Two Betrayers Targaryen ancestors were apparently publicly known (although at least Ulf's description suggests that he most certainly had at least one Targaryen ancestor). That could easily have led to the conclusion that if those lowborn scum can claim a dragon, I can, too - that could be why Bold Jon Roxton believed he could become a dragonrider (or he had Targaryen ancestors, too, we have no clue about House Roxton as of yet). But even Unwin Peake later had to offer gold dragons to convince men to try to claim Silverwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingmonkey Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Oh, I have said this thousands of times in A+J=T threads but people believe what they want to believe :) You need dragon's blood to ride a dragon. Therefore everyone who's ridden a dragon must have had dragon's blood somewhere in their ancestry. Therefore nobody without dragon's blood has ever ridden a dragon. Therefore you (obviously!) need dragon's blood to ride a dragon. Or, you know, case unproven. But that's just crazy talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 They are only called brothers, never twins. Despite it not being canon, the MUSH makes Alyn two years younger than Addam. If they had indeed been twins, MUSH 2.0 would have corrected for such, I think. Now that I think about it I think you've corrected me on this once before. I don't know why I always think they were twins. As for the Celtigars I don't think they would have had a better chance. Presumably they were not a dragonlord house. I doubt the Valyrian dragonlords married into lesser houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 *blinks rapidly* So....this is new? Or rather old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 If Jon rides a dragon I'll cry.... Sure Jon's flying off and having the time of his life.... While ghost can only sit back and watch as the man who was part of him flies off What makes you think Ghost Puppy is gonna be alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caravaggio Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Hey, I wanted to ask a small question here before making a separate thread because i know all of you will know. Does anyone ever actually say anyone other than Lyanna died at ToJ? I reread the scene to be sure, but it never actually says. There is certainly a fight, but fights can end in many ways. I've read a lot of Arthur Dayne is alive threads, but what is to say that any of them couldn't be? So, of Dustin, Glover, Cassel, Ryswell, Wull, Whent, Hightower, and Dayne, is there ever anything concrete to say they are dead and not just in hiding somewhere? I know that Ned describes his friends as Wraiths in the dream, which might imply that they are dead, but Howland was also in that description and all three Kingsguard are described quite differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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