Heresy 174

[Prince of Ghost]

I've liked the fairie idea for awhile, but I started having doubts because i don't think the Others are repelled by iron anymore. We have Royce parying with the Other in the Prologue with steel, which is iron and carbon, but doesn't do much to scare the Other.

If only Stannis Africannus was here, I'm pretty sure I was just having this conversation with him- do you remember Yield. and Weasel Pie?

Is there a "like" function on here haha?

[Lord Ravenstark]

I've liked the fairie idea for awhile, but I started having doubts because i don't think the Others are repelled by iron anymore. We have Royce parying with the Other in the Prologue with steel, which is iron and carbon, but doesn't do much to scare the Other.

If only Stannis Africannus was here, I'm pretty sure I was just having this conversation with him- do you remember Yield. and Weasel Pie?

 

Maybe some kind of iron, like Dragonsteel.

[wolfmaid7]

 

Easy! The Meek Shall Inherit!

Seriously though, the more I think on the themes present in that section of the musical "Little Shop of Horrors" and Bran's situation, there's an unintentional connection and possible future direction of the story, I'm seeing:

Man gains power through connection with a plant with a taste for blood
Man realizes this and at first is revolted and vows to disconnect himself from it all
Man counterpoints himself into believing that the woman whom he loves won't love him if he doesn't have all that power
Woman dies horribly and tragically
Man takes out the plant, but the invasion continues unabated

 

Thoughts?

Huh, who would've thought that a fun little post I'd planned actually prompt some good thematic discussion! :) And all from a campy little musical.

What's trippy is man has a symbiotic relationship with plant annnnnnd some other creatures that form telepathic links.That has never stopped,its been forgotten by humans but those creatures haven't forgotten .I like the little shop of horrors angle you can't see me but i'm laughing because in a light its totally valid.

 

Feed Me Seymour!!

 

I guess we have to in a way define what type symbiotic relationship is it? I mean is it parasitic,mutualistic,commensalism?

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I dont have anything good to back up my thoughts but when we 1st see the COTF they are in a cave with bones skulls and living things with roots going through them. That screams BEWARE of these guys, which then makes me think hey GRRm is trying to make us do a double take, we hear all story how the COTF helped men out and then we see them living in this evil looking place.  So all that being said it seems like a fake out to make us doubt what we "know" about these lil guys that helped men so much.  The COTF are going to help "men" against the WW's/ Others but the way they do it will be appalling to some of us kind of like a means to an end.  Kind of how in apocalypse now where Kurtz says to martin sheen how he respects the vietnam soldiers that would go in after the U.S. inoculated the children and chop off the arms that got the shot. He thought of them as the real soldiers because they were willing to do anything to win and they thought the lives of a few children wasn't worth the war...

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

double mint gum

[Sly Wren]

I would consider even the idea of the Pact being "broken" to be far from confirmed or clear. We have some solid implications that the relationship between the Crannogment and the CotF is better than the one between the CotF and humanity as a whole (and, of course, humanity as a whole couldn't be reasonably expected to have agreed to the Pact in the first place).

Not only is there Jojen's own statements that they've kept more lore and history, there's also the fact that Howland Reed was allowed onto the Isle of Faces, and even able to live there for a winter, even though we have legends of others being forbidden from approaching the Isle of Faces. Is House Reed to be part of some sort of collective punishment or cleansing of Westeros, just because they happen to be the same species as the Andals? 
 

And, to beat a dead horse, why wait until 6,000 - 8,000 years to mete out this punishment? Why wait until the only way to kick off your revenge is to rely on human greenseers, instead of your own? We know the seasons have been messed up for a long time, so there's been plenty of chaos in the realms of men, and plenty of long winters to capitalize upon. Why now?

Yeah--the "why now" is a big gap that needs to be filled whether the Children are running this or not. But for that reason, it seems to apply equally as a problem whether the Children are running this or not--so, maybe not entirely a disqualifier for the Children?

 

Seem to be some friendly humans, like you say. Lots of selectively forgetful and completely oblivious humans, too. Exactly why this is starting up now--not sure we've been given a clue on that one yet one way or another--unless you're seeing something I'm not.

 

I'll admit up front that this is just pure gut feeling, but I suspect that some of the things we don't yet know about Robert's Rebellion - and not just the stuff that pertains to a certain character's parentage - is going to end up somehow being important to what's going on north of the Wall. There are many things we don't know about Howland Reed, about the motives of the Daynes, about Rickard and Arryn's conspiracy. I just can't shake the feeling that, the fact that GRRM's original intended title for A Dream of Spring was "A Time for Wolves" may indicate that the Others, and their awakening, was to be part of House Stark's restoration and revenge, rather than the broader destruction of humanity.

This wouldn't surprise me much at all. Don't think the Reeds have shared half of what they know--or maybe Howland just hasn't shared it all with Meera and Jojen. But Jojen's extra glum for some reason. And how exactly did Howland save Ned? Who actually killed Arthur? Why are the Daynes so positive re: Ned--at least as far as we see with Edric? Rickard's conspiracy--all of it. Big questions.

 

But tied to the re-emergence of the Others? That would be interesting. If that were the case, sounds like the Others could be out of control. Especially since the wight attacks Jon. Am thinking that if it did go this route, would still be a weapon they'd have to put down. How do you wield hundreds let alone thousands of wights with precision?

[Sly Wren]

What's trippy is man has a symbiotic relationship with plant annnnnnd some other creatures that form telepathic links.That has never stopped,its been forgotten by humans but those creatures haven't forgotten .I like the little shop of horrors angle you can't see me but i'm laughing because in a light its totally valid.

 

Feed Me Seymour!!

 

I guess we have to in a way define what type symbiotic relationship is it? I mean is it parasitic,mutualistic,commensalism?

So, if we go with this metaphor--Ramsay's the singing dentist, right? "You have a talent for causing things pain!"

 

Does that mean someone will feed him to a tree? 

[Sly Wren]

I dont have anything good to back up my thoughts but when we 1st see the COTF they are in a cave with bones skulls and living things with roots going through them. That screams BEWARE of these guys, which then makes me think hey GRRm is trying to make us do a double take, we hear all story how the COTF helped men out and then we see them living in this evil looking place.  So all that being said it seems like a fake out to make us doubt what we "know" about these lil guys that helped men so much.  The COTF are going to help "men" against the WW's/ Others but the way they do it will be appalling to some of us kind of like a means to an end.  Kind of how in apocalypse now where Kurtz says to martin sheen how he respects the vietnam soldiers that would go in after the U.S. inoculated the children and chop off the arms that got the shot. He thought of them as the real soldiers because they were willing to do anything to win and they thought the lives of a few children wasn't worth the war...

Yeah--that's my take. Maybe I'm prejudiced, but that cave reminds me of the House of the Undying. And Dante's 9th circle of hell. All after hearing how fabulous the Children are--it's a big jolt. At least to me.

 

Kurtz in Apocalypse Now--Now that's a disturbing thought. Willing to do anything to win the endless war--is that what we're seeing in the cave with the multiple singers in the roots? Fanaticism to a cause? 

[WhitewolfStark]

So, if we go with this metaphor--Ramsay's the singing dentist, right? "You have a talent for causing things pain!"

 

Does that mean someone will feed him to a tree? 

 

Indeed, that fits better than expected! :p

Or at least he's a sacrifice most people wouldn't mind seeing made (just like in the show he "sure looks like plant food to me").

The question being: once you start feeding the plants humans you consider to be scum by moral judgment, when does it stop? ;-)

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah--the "why now" is a big gap that needs to be filled whether the Children are running this or not. But for that reason, it seems to apply equally as a problem whether the Children are running this or not--so, maybe not entirely a disqualifier for the Children?

 

Seem to be some friendly humans, like you say. Lots of selectively forgetful and completely oblivious humans, too. Exactly why this is starting up now--not sure we've been given a clue on that one yet one way or another--unless you're seeing something I'm not.

 

This wouldn't surprise me much at all. Don't think the Reeds have shared half of what they know--or maybe Howland just hasn't shared it all with Meera and Jojen. But Jojen's extra glum for some reason. And how exactly did Howland save Ned? Who actually killed Arthur? Why are the Daynes so positive re: Ned--at least as far as we see with Edric? Rickard's conspiracy--all of it. Big questions.

 

But tied to the re-emergence of the Others? That would be interesting. If that were the case, sounds like the Others could be out of control. Especially since the wight attacks Jon. Am thinking that if it did go this route, would still be a weapon they'd have to put down. How do you wield hundreds let alone thousands of wights with precision?

 

I will go back to something i've said since i started posting on Heresy......Because its cyclical.Its the way the world is made ,it is the balance.Someone mentioned upthread that the COTF are few to maintain a balance.I believe that is true.Like i said before the ways of man is at odds with that. They breed like crazy,consume the resourses of the land and don't put back.They kill themselves and others.Unlike the COTF they have yet to hack out what it means to work in harmony with their surroundings and others in it.They are the problem and part of the solution.

 

This is a culling that has to take place and when the Snow storm blows away only the strong will have survived.

 

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.ECC 3:1

 

The above being said....Why? Winter is coming

 

So, if we go with this metaphor--Ramsay's the singing dentist, right? "You have a talent for causing things pain!"

 

Does that mean someone will feed him to a tree? 

Oh gods i hope not...He's likely to give the collective the runs. :ack:

[Mace Cooterian]

The wards outside the cave could just be a signpost: "Wights not allowed beyond this point" :-)

 

But I agree that there are a lot of connections that are hard to fully reconcile:

-The Starks' link to the weirwoods: Old gods worshipers, being wargs and greenseers, human sacrifice

-The Starks' connection to ice and darkness: Kings of Winter, the Night's King, a Brandon building the Wall

-The weirdwoods' link to life and earth

 

And more that I can't remember just now

 

I think this post is really hitting the mark.  I've highlighted 3 of the 5 arguments, which if we all knew the answers we "could probably skip book 6" and move on to ADoS.

 

The other two items that Tucu mentioned are not quite straight forward (at least in my park).

 

-CoTF using obsidian (fire magic) weapons.

-The Others hating all life (might be just a misunderstanding)

 

BTW....the last time I heard the name "tucu"....reminds me of "tuco" from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

 

RIP.....Eli Wallach!

[Sly Wren]

 

I will go back to something i've said since i started posting on Heresy......Because its cyclical.Its the way the world is made ,it is the balance.Someone mentioned upthread that the COTF are few to maintain a balance.I believe that is true.Like i said before the ways of man is at odds with that. They breed like crazy,consume the resourses of the land and don't put back.They kill themselves and others.Unlike the COTF they have yet to hack out what it means to work in harmony with their surroundings and others in it.They are the problem and part of the solution.

 

This is a culling that has to take place and when the Snow storm blows away only the strong will have survived.

 

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

The above being said....Why? Winter is coming

Can go with there being a natural rise and fall, even cycles, for magics. Especially since there don't seem to be clear recipes for magics. And new surprises have appeared--aka Beric.

 

But the idea of a natural cycle to cull the herd--can't think of a precedent for that. That the Children may have decided it's time to do this, and that the time may coincide with a rise in magic--that works. But, as has been said by many before me--sentient beings make the monsters in this world. Not natural cycles. If Winter is Coming, someone sent it. On purpose.

[Sly Wren]

Oh gods i hope not...He's likely to give the collective the runs. :ack:

Ah--but if the rest of the world needs culling, the trees could use a good purging, no? Ramsay as emetic and/or enema. Seems a fitting end.

[Sly Wren]

 

Indeed, that fits better than expected! :P

Or at least he's a sacrifice most people wouldn't mind seeing made (just like in the show he "sure looks like plant food to me").

The question being: once you start feeding the plants humans you consider to be scum by moral judgment, when does it stop? ;-)

Silliness aside, it raises a question we probably can't answer about the blood sacrifices. Were they always sacrifices for the gods? Were they ever vengeance, murder, etc? Asha says Theon should be executed in front of a heart tree.  Ned cleans Ice after beheadings at the heart tree--back to Tucu's idea of the collective consciousness of the trees being changed by humans--wonder if this could be part of it? Pretty sure we don't have enough info to determine one way or the other, but I wonder.

[wolfmaid7]

Can go with there being a natural rise and fall, even cycles, for magics. Especially since there don't seem to be clear recipes for magics. And new surprises have appeared--aka Beric.

 

But the idea of a natural cycle to cull the herd--can't think of a precedent for that. That the Children may have decided it's time to do this, and that the time may coincide with a rise in magic--that works. But, as has been said by many before me--sentient beings make the monsters in this world. Not natural cycles. If Winter is Coming, someone sent it. On purpose.

I'll not go into the extinction theory/end of ages right now.But is there a time in Westrosi history that we've seen this and the answer is yes. The previous longnight,there's a reason why we are nicknaming this LN.2.0 because certain things that were are happening again...A pattern.

 

Massive population

fighting over domains etc

Political unrest/wars rumours of wars.

Animals and people being displaced

Signs in the heavens

 

Is their a culling going on naturally,yeah!!!! Loads of people are going to die now and loads of people died in the past. There's no way all these people are going to live and when its all over the walking dead will wander off to frozen north like they did before.And a few people will be left to begin the cycle again.Maybe this time they'll get it right.

 

I'm of the mind again that the COTF aren't behind this they are servants doing what their wisemen say

 

 

Ah--but if the rest of the world needs culling, the trees could use a good purging, no? Ramsay as emetic and/or enema. Seems a fitting end.

Hahaha. What i think the trees need is a selfless heart one that puts the realm before politics and personal agendas.Duty to all.

[TheSmallOther]

 

And, to beat a dead horse, why wait until 6,000 - 8,000 years to mete out this punishment? Why wait until the only way to kick off your revenge is to rely on human greenseers, instead of your own? We know the seasons have been messed up for a long time, so there's been plenty of chaos in the realms of men, and plenty of long winters to capitalize upon. Why now?
 

 

Comets and stuff, you know. The time has come when magic is finally at it's strongest and they can beat a dead horse (or anyone else they need) with the biggest stick.

 

On the other hand, perhaps Others have read the prophecies about AA reborn and found out "it is the time to go outside and meet our old friend".

[Black Crow]

...And, to beat a dead horse, why wait until 6,000 - 8,000 years to mete out this punishment? Why wait until the only way to kick off your revenge is to rely on human greenseers, instead of your own? We know the seasons have been messed up for a long time, so there's been plenty of chaos in the realms of men, and plenty of long winters to capitalize upon. Why now?

 

I'll admit up front that this is just pure gut feeling, but I suspect that some of the things we don't yet know about Robert's Rebellion - and not just the stuff that pertains to a certain character's parentage - is going to end up somehow being important to what's going on north of the Wall. There are many things we don't know about Howland Reed, about the motives of the Daynes, about Rickard and Arryn's conspiracy. I just can't shake the feeling that, the fact that GRRM's original intended title for A Dream of Spring was "A Time for Wolves" may indicate that the Others, and their awakening, was to be part of House Stark's restoration and revenge, rather than the broader destruction of humanity.

 

As to the why now, I think its down to the rise in magic. Whatever the process, breaking the arm, bringing down the long night and building the Wall must have taken hods and hods of magic. When the Andals came there was none left and so the children/singers got badly beaten. Now magic is rising again and they're coming back.

[Black Crow]

I've had similar thoughts as well, especially looking at the series from a somewhat meta point of view. With only 2 books left to go and the civil war on the verge of restarting, I suspect the Others are going to be intrinsically tied to the game, rather than having the game abandoned hastily so everyone can focus on the zombie apocalypse.
Also, if there actually is a zombie apocalypse, then the Starks and the North (our first real protagonists) are logically doomed unless the Others are anticlimactically stopped at the Wall itself. Sure doesn't sound like a time for wolves.

 

Exactly so.

 

As to the Starks - and the "Wolves" - I think that, clearly, there is a connection but that it's not so straightforward as Addicted suggests. The original synopsis makes the importance of the Stark-Lannister feud and the fall of House Stark pretty clear. This story latterly is about the recovery of House Stark and I too have difficulty in seeing that story being effectively set aside in order to deal with a nameless horror from the north.

 

Given Bran's current situation I'd be more inclined to see it as a temptation. The old powers are offering the Starks a way back. Do they align themselves with the powers of Hell as they may once have done before to regain Winterfell, or fight against them as the synopsis suggests?

[Reposado]

I've had similar thoughts as well, especially looking at the series from a somewhat meta point of view. With only 2 books left to go and the civil war on the verge of restarting, I suspect the Others are going to be intrinsically tied to the game, rather than having the game abandoned hastily so everyone can focus on the zombie apocalypse.
Also, if there actually is a zombie apocalypse, then the Starks and the North (our first real protagonists) are logically doomed unless the Others are anticlimactically stopped at the Wall itself. Sure doesn't sound like a time for wolves.

 

not really. none of the starks are in the direct path. bran  is already north of the wall in the cave. jon is dead/wolf/wight/something that is, he could end up behind enemy lines. arya is overseas. sansa is in the eyrie, probably the most zombie proof place in westeros.  rickon is on an island. post-other invasion is a perfect times for wolves to reform as a pack and use their gained abilities

[Balerion06]

 

not really. none of the starks are in the direct path. bran  is already north of the wall in the cave. jon is dead/wolf/wight/something that is, he could end up behind enemy lines. arya is overseas. sansa is in the eyrie, probably the most zombie proof place in westeros.  rickon is on an island. post-other invasion is a perfect times for wolves to reform as a pack and use their gained abilities

The Starks themselves may not get caught in the crossfire, but their vassals (the source of their strength) are doomed if the Others herald the apocalypse. It's pretty unlikely that there'll be a time for wolves if the Northern armies have to suffer through the decimation of both the RW and the brunt of the Others' invasion. Same goes for the Riverlands.