JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Guys, I'm busy with work and health, so I'll try to be brief. I read the whole "Dethroned" initiative and I think something clicked this week about that. See, I'm watching Wayward Pines (yes, I know it's a M. Night Shanahnah's work but put that aside for a moment) and so far, the show has been given good critiques because it's ok. It got flaws but it's actually enjoyable. I'm putting the story in spoilers in case you haven't watch (you should): [spoiler] The show is about Pilcher, a doctor who found out humankind was doomed to die due to degeneration in our genes, pollution and other bad things. He worked for many years to gather technology and resources for a bunch of humans to be frozen for 2000 years and wake up in a new healed and clean Earth. As he didn't find enough volunteers, he kidnapped a few hundreds and woke them up later. These people have no idea what's happening. They have no idea they are in the year 4028, and they are simply living in WP as nothing happened and with fear because if they ask questions, they will get killed. They cannot even discuss their past because the town has cameras everywhere. [/spoiler] Again, the show does have flaws but it's good in the general sense. And a lot of people are TEARING IT APART with questions and observations like "the show doesn't explain how this technology works, so, it's a plot hole!". As you can see, the show is mostly sci-fi, so, a lot of suspension of disbelief has to happen. For instance, both the shows and books explain that Pilcher and the group had developed the technology they need for their plans. It's not something that the show is simply letting float in the air. The author of the books has just not developed that part of the story because the theme of the books is how the people from Wayward Pines deals with their situation and their new lives there. It's about the conflict between safety vs freedom and which one we prefer. So, why people feel the need to ask so many questions about this show but they let more blatant mistakes in GoT to pass? Because GoT is fantasy. WP is pure sci-fi. Sci-fi is not joke. Sci-fi is a genre that is taken seriously and with the proper importance because it has technology, so, it has to be for smart people. That doesn't happen with fantasy, despite sci-fi and fantasy are pretty much the same thing, except once deals with magic while the other one deals with a more realistic approach to the things we cannot explain. Sci-fi is pretty much technological fantasy. I mean, no one asks or points out the biology of the dragons and calls the show impossible because the dragons as Martin has described them shouldn't exist. I mean, we surely do it here in the board, but in the show, people simply accept is a show with dragons and magic. In WP, despite the efforts of the producers and the authors to provide an explanation, they don't care. They don't want to assume things: they want them explained. EVERYTHING. People don't ask questions when something is fantasy because they believe it's not something to be taken seriously and just enjoy and assume. OR worst, fantasy is for children. Fantasy is a bit easier to write than Sci-fi. Rowling didn't have to write about Harry Potter inventing a machine to make brooms fly. Magic solves that. GoT has also magic but there is something else: it also has sex and violence. We don't see that kind of violence in LotR. GoT has it. That's what gives GoT the free pass. It's not "mere" fantasy. They never took it seriously because it has dragons and fantastic elements. If they started to develop the same situations Martin deals with in the book, people will see it's not an "easy to watch" show and they will start to ask questions. So, they made those things secondary and gave the spotlight to everything that was unFantasy-like to grow apart from the genre the most they could but not too much so people would stop thinking is just some silly show. And yes, I failed to be brief, byes :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 // Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Cygne Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 So the show is just using fantasy to get a free pass from making sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The characters mean something to us, they are people. Dragons exist on the show, yeah, White Walkers (Others) exist to but real life/death etc things happen to the people and I cannot just ignore it, good or bad and it is sad for a critics and fans alike to ignore the important and controversial situations / moments the show puts out. No, they should not get a free pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Glad this is back. To those who continue you engage with 'show apologists' for the sake of debate or attempting to find consensus, you are better people than I. Or simply too stubborn to think people really are unable to see it. But there are a lot of fun moments in these discussions as well. I laughed out loud when I gave a list of all plot holes I was able to think of in five minutes and the only reaction was one of the fanboy militants thinking it was a summary of the season. Yes, that's right, the whole season contains enough plotholes that they carry the whole story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TepidHands Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I for one am getting very tired of being called "childish," "stupid" and other perjoratives simply because I think the "adaptation" of some of my favorite works of art is failing miserably. I'm not calling THEM names. It's childish that I think that Bronn and Ros and Olly are unnecessary to tell a decent story? Martin apparently thought they weren't needed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Arianne was all in one and they cut her as if she never existed. This is something I don't understand. Arianne is the kind of character D+D would love. Not for the right reasons, but she's sexy, empowered (or "empowered" as she would be in the show), schemes, gets naked. And she does actually streamline characters which they're so obsessed with doing. I just can't comprehend why we didn't get some butchered version of Arianne. The only explanation I can think of is that they don't like big nipples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalsplit Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 A scheming sexy woman character who has good intentions? That's too complex for them to comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's 20 Good Men Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 This is something I don't understand. Arianne is the kind of character D+D would love. Not for the right reasons, but she's sexy, empowered (or "empowered" as she would be in the show), schemes, gets naked. And she does actually streamline characters which they're so obsessed with doing. I just can't comprehend why we didn't get some butchered version of Arianne. The only explanation I can think of is that they don't like big nipples? Let's just be glad they didn't get hold of her. Imagine what they would've done to her character if they had included her in their Dorne 'plot' :bawl: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Writhen Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Totally, bro. If they are dudes that truly love the bad pussy, there is no pussy pussier or badder than Arianne... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindwalker Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Finally, it's back! Yay! I for one am getting very tired of being called "childish," "stupid" and other perjoratives simply because I think the "adaptation" of some of my favorite works of art is failing miserably. I'm not calling THEM names. My personal favorite is "butthurt crybaby." And WE are supposed to be the childish ones! Whats the difference between good pussy and bad pussy anyways? What the hell is a bad pussy even suppose to imply :idea: That's a question for the philosophers... I'm surprised he hasn't raped Cersei a second time yet. 1. Oh, that's easy. Women are either saints/ virgins/ mothers (sometimes all at the same time), or whores. 2. I think it will be Dany's time for a second round of empowerment first. She hasn't been raped since season 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion06 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I got into a debate with a show watcher at a hostel I was staying at. He argued that I was painting Book Tyrion too negatively by saying that he raped the slave girls, and that the whole Jeynsa plot makes perfectly good sense because "streamlining". I don't mean to be offensive or sound haughty, but I suspect that most show watchers are only casual readers who don't read the text too deeply. Hell, I admit I've made similar statements like that in the past, until other posters (mainly the ones on these awesome threads) have shown me different interpretations and helped me better understand the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleenys Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I got into a debate with a show watcher at a hostel I was staying at. He argued that I was painting Book Tyrion too negatively by saying that he raped the slave girls, and that the whole Jeynsa plot makes perfectly good sense because "streamlining". I don't mean to be offensive or sound haughty, but I suspect that most show watchers are only casual readers who don't read the text too deeply. Hell, I admit I've made similar statements like that in the past, until other posters (mainly the ones on these awesome threads) have shown me different interpretations and helped me better understand the books. Oh, sure. Especially the ones who are vehemently defending the show, they are proven on many occasions to find the books more faulty than an average book reader does. Hell, I used to follow WotW/WiC vehemently and there was no shortage of ad hominem thrown at people who expected major plot developments from the books, like UnCat, Arianne and Ironborn. I saw a lot of comments expressing relief when it turned out most of these weren't going to be included so the showpraisers could go on undisturbed with their showpraisisms in the comments. After episode 6 the site became impossible to stomach so I don't look at the comments and only check a few news now and then. The least I can say about the matter is people here have a legitimate cause to be angry and upset. As you said, there are people who have partaken in a lot of discussions about these characters and to see only their name-mirrored versions in the show with nothing of their book counterpart it of course upsets people. The internet is not a good place to hang out if you can't deal with people who will have differing opinions and will be passionate about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 ^^ WiC: When I made some comment on Twitter about the stupid show - Littlefinger's 'genius' plan to be precise - this year I got a reply from a random guy saying, 'books are for newbs'. WiC was part of the exchange and replied to random guy (without adding me to the reply) saying, 'And the lonely, don't forget the lonely'. I mean, really? :rolleyes: But what can we expect? WiC was bought by FanSided who was in turn bought by Time inc who owns HBO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 My personal favorite is "butthurt crybaby." And WE are supposed to be the childish ones! It's a trend I'm noticing. "Don't make personal attacks!" *makes personal attack.* "Don't be so hateful!" *trashes AFFC/ADWD like they were written by Stephanie Meyer.* "Wait and see how it all pans out!" *Makes assumptions about all the characters and plots in Feast/Dance being unimportant* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 ^^ WiC: When I made some comment on Twitter about the stupid show - Littlefinger's 'genius' plan to be precise - this year I got a reply from a random guy saying, 'books are for newbs'. WiC was part of the exchange and replied to random guy (without adding me to the reply) saying, 'And the lonely, don't forget the lonely'. I mean, really? :rolleyes: But what can we expect? WiC was bought by FanSided who was in turn bought by Time inc who owns HBO. Ah, WiC, that fantastic website with great articles whose authors think Ramsay's girlfriend and Myranda Royce are the same person. So, I guess the show is for... sociable people? Who watch them in groups and make themselves not-lonely that way? (I guess that could explain their attachment to the show. ) And who are so terrified of being alone that they can't even do things you have to do on your own, like reading? (They could try to organize a public reading, though...) Do they also post in groups, since they can't be lonely on the Internet? I'm just trying to make sense of it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's 20 Good Men Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 ^^ WiC: When I made some comment on Twitter about the stupid show - Littlefinger's 'genius' plan to be precise - this year I got a reply from a random guy saying, 'books are for newbs'. WiC was part of the exchange and replied to random guy (without adding me to the reply) saying, 'And the lonely, don't forget the lonely'. I mean, really? :rolleyes: But what can we expect? WiC was bought by FanSided who was in turn bought by Time inc who owns HBO. Wow, that's seriously inexcusable. And the owners of that website also own HBO? How very professional of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 1. Oh, that's easy. Women are either saints/ virgins/ mothers (sometimes all at the same time), or whores. Or Badasses™. Don't forget Talisa and Brienne. Never mind anachronisms or the blatant stripping away of any feminine qualities. We know that just means weakness anyway. I think they think that Dany is a Badass™ in how they scripted her. Which is just so, so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Or Badasses™. Don't forget Talisa and Brienne. Never mind anachronisms or the blatant stripping away of any feminine qualities. We know that just means weakness anyway. I think they think that Dany is a Badass™ in how they scripted her. Which is just so, so sad. What's more badass than being incapable to rule even when you aren't facing any particular problems, randomly killing people, forcing people to marry you, making threats, and then turning into a little kitten who needs to be rescued the moment there's a riot and your life is threatened? Joffrey was the ultimate badass of GoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apovsic Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I was just about to leave this subforum. But this thread dragged me back :grouphug: . Also, I was reading the second page about KotLT and I have this weird image of LF telling the story. :ack: I mean why not, he seems to know EVERYTHING and Meera should get instead some dialog that appropriates woman ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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