Why I Think Jon Snow Is Dead and Gone

[Joseph Nobles]

It is time to consider that Jon Snow may be dead.

 

The consistent question in the North has been one thing alone, from sequence one of the television show and the prologue of the book: Who can stand against the Others? And just as consistently, if there is ever an answer to that question, a figure around whom more than token resistance could coalesce, that person dies.

 

First, there was Eddard Stark. He was meant to take the black after his disastrous run-in with the Lannisters in King’s Landing. What would have happened had he been allowed to do so?

 

When Mormont went off to his end in the second book, he would have left Eddard Stark in charge of Castle Black. He would have become the 998th Lord Commander. With Robb safely home in Winterfell and Jon Snow by his side, Eddard could have united the North behind the need to fight the Others. When Stannis arrived at the onslaught of the wildlings, he too would have willingly taken Robb Stark (a clear substitute for Ned) as his ally. With no Bolton rebellion, the North, the Night’s Watch, and Stannis would have resisted the attack of the army of the dead.

 

But Ned did die.

 

Next, there was Robb Stark. The brilliant tactician and son of Eddard, Robb was not the best at being King of the North, but he was learning. Had he not died at the Red Wedding, he would have gone north, dealt with the traitorous Theon Greyjoy and reclaimed Winterfell in time for winter to arrive. The Boltons here were not betrayers, and while Ramsey (in the books) may have suffered for his part in the death of the miller boys, he might not have. He may have gotten away with claiming he’d substituted them for Bran and Rickon to frustrate Greyjoy’s mad fury. At any rate, Robb in Winterfell means that in the books, there is no fake Arya to test Jon Snow’s vows, and in the television show, there is a natural ally to back Jon Snow up with the weight of the Northern Lords. Again, Stannis would arrive, ally with a united North, and though it might have gone harder, still the North would have held against the advance of the Others.

 

But Robb did die.

 

So we come to Jon Snow, the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, a supposed bastard learning how to rule in the most thankless way possible. With his death, we again lose a person who could have united the resistance against the Others. The television show makes this point more strongly than the books even, where we see Jon at Hardhome, fighting as he was born to fight. Is he really dead?

 

If he were alive, then let us suppose as well that Stannis takes Winterfell in the books. Again, though a weaker situation than Robb in command, the books’ Stannis does enjoy the backing of most northern lords. Jon would have kept the free folk from raiding the countryside, and his stance alongside Jon Snow (remember, the Watch does not strike out at Jon until they think Stannis has lost) would have still kept the North together against the approach of Winter.

 

But he is dead.

 

Without him, the wildlings will revolt like the citizens of Rome after Caesar’s assassination. Though they are the poorer fighters, they have the superior numbers. The Watch will fall. The books will have Stannis take Winterfell, I believe, and his family will make it to him in the aftermath of Snow’s death. With no one minding the Wall, with the North fighting off the pillaging of the free folk, the Others will advance, taking all the dead for their own. The Wall will collapse. Stannis will then make his terrible choice, burning Shireen to appease the Lord of Light. But the ensuing thaw will only let his Northern allies flee in horror and despair. Winterfell will fall again. And the television series and books converging again, the Others will march south towards their eventual rendezvous with Dany and her dragons.

 

Yes, Jon Snow's parentage is yet to be revealed and will be. Why do this if Jon Snow is dead and gone? Because I think this will kick off a book-long and season-long quest for Melisandre to raise him up again. Yes, GRRM said, "So you think he is dead?" But he also described his narrative of first Ned and then Robb dying in this way: "I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do."

 

Jon Snow is the next person in whom we placed the hope of the narrative. And now R+L=J can be revealed to keep hope alive. Mel will ride south, unable to do the feat herself. She has seen it in action in the series, and needs only a good vision in the books to know her next step. But this will be in vain. We may yet see the body of Jon Snow on its feet again, but only as a pawn in the army of the dead, a cameo in season 7 for perhaps Arya to put out of our misery.

 

The Southern Ambitions, the Northern Conspiracy, Littlefinger's gambits, and Varys's shadow moves: all of the games around the Iron Throne are a corrosive rot in society that only hasten the advance of the Others. All three characters – Ned, Robb, and Jon – could have stopped this story in the North from happening. They all could have built a resistance to hold back Winter. But they all have been destroyed by spite masquerading as politics. And now Westeros is about to get the fate it has asked for good and hard. This to me is the story that both GRRM and D&D are telling in the north of Westeros.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

Then why did George Say Jon would find a out who his parents are?

[The Man from Nowhere]

I'll admit the books now have way more bleak and hopeless moments than I would have thought but I believe GRRM doesn't do extreme. Whether good or bad, night or day, fire or ice, I believe he will always create a world were neither reigns supreme. There's a limit to usurping readers expectations. Originally its viewed as unique adding itself to the mystery and chaos of his world, but do it too much and it becomes cliche. And I really think he would hate to consider himself cliche.
Rebirth, whether physical or spiritual has been used literally and thematically to describe great periods or moments of change, and I therefore think that though certain characters deaths are real, they are not meant to be the end. Almost to the point where GRRM is using his own readers expectations to believe that they are truly dead-after all he killed Ned, Robb ect-and thus any time a reader thinks they have him figured out they are wrong.
After all he has stated that his ending will be bittersweet, a fact reinforced by D&D(I think). The world we live in has great evil and great kindness and I think he is emulating this truth through his books. His is a realistic fiction with fantasy elements rather than a high fantasy with real world elements.

[A Ghost of Someone]

There is no way that Jon can be dead for good and never come back. No way. Same with Dany. It comes down to them 2 for who will reign supreme or atleast be the one to lead the fight if not together (lover or not) to fight the WW/Others.

[~DarkHorse~]

Then why did George Say Jon would find a out who his parents are?

 

Exactly

 

In order to make the show, GRRM asked D&D who Jon Snow's mother was. Why would that be the question if R+L=J comes to nothing? The hints have been all over the place this season and next season we are getting a Tower of Joy scene. What would be the point if Jon is really gone for good?

 

I don't even think he will skip a season like allot of people are predicting.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I see your point, but Jon has been different from the beginning. Set apart from Ned and Robb, in name and path. As much as I loved them, they were just one thing. Ned--blinded by duty and doing the right thing. Robb--determined to be his father's son and swept up in the North's need for vengeance.

Jon, however, is more. He convinces Ned to keep the direwolves, he gives Arya her needle, he has an initial relationship on the road with Tyrion, becomes brothers with the NW AND is respected by the Wildlings. He is part of the thoughts that haunt Ned and Cat's one obvious flaw. He kills the first wight but prior to that Jeor and Aemon saw something special in him and started grooming him for leadership. In one way or another, he has crossed paths with someone from every main story line. (he's even wielding the sword that used to be Jorah's)

 

The parentage thing is huge as well. All those hints.

 

Also the unfinished aspect.

 

Ned--he tried to do what was right and failed, then compromised for the sake of his daughter, and Joffrey killed him. That was a clean ending. It started everything really, and if he hadn't died he would have taken the black, but he would never have been able to do what Jon did with the Wildlings. He'd never really been an outsider, Jon had as a bastard.

Robb--he was making good headway but there has to be a winner in a war, and he made a huge tactical mistake by betraying the Freys and trusting the Boltons. I wasn't happy he died and it was horrible and sad but it made sense.

 

Jon's death doesn't actually make sense unless the story at the Wall is over. Unless every dream in the book and all the references in the show to AA and R+L didn't really matter.

Who cares about the Wall if Olly and Alliser are running things? No one.

Who roots for humanity when the one LC who actually understood what his vows meant (ie Wildlings are people too and they aren't why the wall was built) is killed by his own men out of ignorance and fear?

 

Sure there are a lot of stories going on with tons of other characters, but the only story that was dealing with the seemingly unstoppable force of nature that is the WW was Jon's story. That's it. Cersei trying to keep her family on the throne, bandits in the Riverlands, FM training in Braavos, Dany trying to rule in Mereen... none of them have even hinted at being aware of or remotely prepared for one of the largest overall story lines in the series. The fact that zombies and their icy puppet masters are bringing back the long night. Without Jon... well, no story is that hopeless and dark.

[GtrGbln]

Dude this thread was ill advised. People know what they know and thats that. 

 

Snow fans will consider any possible theory no matter how stupid or ridiculous bar none about his fate except that he might actually be dead. I used to agree but lately their reasons are starting to sound increasingly frantic and desperate. Seriously just look at this thread. Technicalities, semantics and whole lot of wishful thinking its kind of funny actually.

 

I feel foolish for ever having agreed with these guys so strongly.

[GtrGbln]

 

Exactly

 

In order to make the show, GRRM asked D&D who Jon Snow's mother was. Why would that be the question if R+L=J comes to nothing? The hints have been all over the place this season and next season we are getting a Tower of Joy scene. What would be the point if Jon is really gone for good?

 

I don't even think he will skip a season like allot of people are predicting.

 

You both should go back and read that quote more closely. GRRM was asked if we will find out who Jon's parents are. George never said anything about Jon.

 

Go on go look for yourself. 

[GtrGbln]

There is no way that Jon can be dead for good and never come back. No way. Same with Dany. It comes down to them 2 for who will reign supreme or atleast be the one to lead the fight if not together (lover or not) to fight the WW/Others.

 

eyeroll

[RGBeyondAsshai]

 

eyeroll

Good choice. No one can argue with a facial expression.

 

:rolleyes:

[RGBeyondAsshai]

 

Exactly

 

In order to make the show, GRRM asked D&D who Jon Snow's mother was. Why would that be the question if R+L=J comes to nothing? The hints have been all over the place this season and next season we are getting a Tower of Joy scene. What would be the point if Jon is really gone for good?

 

I don't even think he will skip a season like allot of people are predicting.

I agree-and yes-it certainly looks like (based on locations and casting calls) we could be getting the Tower.

[Joseph Nobles]

The only thing I find about "Eventually, yes" in 2008 is this interview listed here: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2755

 

That report only says that we will find out about Jon's parentage, not Jon. It doesn't have the actual question, though, so if someone can find the video or if there's a better report, I'd appreciate it.

 

I think R+L=J remains important. It serves to motivate Melisandre. It gives us hope as readers and viewers. And what better way to inflame that hope than finally showing us the Tower of Joy? I just think that in the North this hope is ill-founded. In fact, I can see Mel's efforts to raise Jon winding up being the catalyst for the collapse of the Wall. So, yes, I think the story at the Wall is almost over. But I'm not mad at GRRM, I'm mad at the short-sighted numbskulls that keep killing their best leaders.

 

But this tragedy is only in the North. What happens when Dany finally makes it to Westeros is up in the air. HA! Get it? Dragons fly up in the air... Oh, OK, sorry. But there's also Bran in the mix, and where does Arya fit in? Littlefinger's not going down that easily. Yes, King's Landing has been undergoing the same sort of undermining that the North has. Cersei Unleashed is going to be a hell of a thing to read about. But if the Vale can prop up the Riverlands, make peace with Highgarden and then welcome Dany as Queen, the center can hold. There is plenty of room here for a bittersweet ending.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

[Le Cygne]

This was a Barnes and Noble book club Q and A, GRRM logged in to answer questions, there were many left unanswered, but he answered this one, so this is him typing, his own words, the answer to a question he chose to answer:

 

I have a million questions, but the one that I really am most wanting to know is .... will Jon ever find out about his parentage?

 

Eventually, yes.

 

http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Center-Stage/George-R-R-Martin-The-Books/td-p/167742/page/2

[Zoe Stark]

I see your point, but Jon has been different from the beginning. Set apart from Ned and Robb, in name and path. As much as I loved them, they were just one thing. Ned--blinded by duty and doing the right thing. Robb--determined to be his father's son and swept up in the North's need for vengeance.

Jon, however, is more. He convinces Ned to keep the direwolves, he gives Arya her needle, he has an initial relationship on the road with Tyrion, becomes brothers with the NW AND is respected by the Wildlings. He is part of the thoughts that haunt Ned and Cat's one obvious flaw. He kills the first wight but prior to that Jeor and Aemon saw something special in him and started grooming him for leadership. In one way or another, he has crossed paths with someone from every main story line. (he's even wielding the sword that used to be Jorah's)

 

The parentage thing is huge as well. All those hints.

 

Also the unfinished aspect.

 

Ned--he tried to do what was right and failed, then compromised for the sake of his daughter, and Joffrey killed him. That was a clean ending. It started everything really, and if he hadn't died he would have taken the black, but he would never have been able to do what Jon did with the Wildlings. He'd never really been an outsider, Jon had as a bastard.

Robb--he was making good headway but there has to be a winner in a war, and he made a huge tactical mistake by betraying the Freys and trusting the Boltons. I wasn't happy he died and it was horrible and sad but it made sense.

 

Jon's death doesn't actually make sense unless the story at the Wall is over. Unless every dream in the book and all the references in the show to AA and R+L didn't really matter.

Who cares about the Wall if Olly and Alliser are running things? No one.

Who roots for humanity when the one LC who actually understood what his vows meant (ie Wildlings are people too and they aren't why the wall was built) is killed by his own men out of ignorance and fear?

 

Sure there are a lot of stories going on with tons of other characters, but the only story that was dealing with the seemingly unstoppable force of nature that is the WW was Jon's story. That's it. Cersei trying to keep her family on the throne, bandits in the Riverlands, FM training in Braavos, Dany trying to rule in Mereen... none of them have even hinted at being aware of or remotely prepared for one of the largest overall story lines in the series. The fact that zombies and their icy puppet masters are bringing back the long night. Without Jon... well, no story is that hopeless and dark.

Yes. Yes to everything you said. 

 

Also, Jon is honestly my favorite character for the reason that he has always been an outsider, but he still acts with the same honor that Ned and Robb did. His loyalty to the NW remained unfaltering, even after he tried to bring the Wildlings to the other side of the wall. He was doing it for the watch (excuse the pun) and for the realm while everyone just chose to overlook that and pay attention to the fact that he is nothing but a bastard. He wanted to be more than just a bastard, and he succeeded when he was chosen as the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

 

You could argue that "our theories" are getting a bit too wishful (@GtrGbln), and I would honestly agree with that. But we cannot ignore the fact that without Jon, the wall's storyline is dead. And so is the entire North's storyline except for maybe Theon and Sansa (D&D I pray for you)... but they're trying to leave the North. Bran is off doing God knows what, so maybe he might give us a little hope, but without Jon I doubt it. Jon held up one of the most significant storylines in the story, the one with the imminent WW apocalypse, and without him it's shot to hell. If GRRM or D&D try to salvage the story without Jon, it will end up being very disappointing.

 

Yes, he very well might be "deader than dead" but I don't think anyone has it in them to destroy the storyline in the North as far as that. Robb and Ned were both expendable in very sad and unfortunate ways. But the story lived on. It grew and expanded into something much bigger than the Iron Throne when the NW faced the Walkers. Dany, Cersei, Margaery, Varys, Tyrion, and whoever else are still focused on the Throne and nothing but the Throne. No one really knew the WWs as well as Jon did. In a literary and a "good television" sense, Jon is barely as expendable as Ned and Robb.

 

Anyways, that's my opinion. In the end, we're just trying to keep ourselves sane until season 6. 

[Richard Writhen]

Dude. Jon is teh man. He's ice and fire put together. The unification. They need to A. Bring the Mannis Back and then B. Get right on that Jon Snow resurrection.

[Spilt Pea Soup]

 
You both should go back and read that quote more closely. GRRM was asked if we will find out who Jon's parents are. George never said anything about Jon.
 
Go on go look for yourself. 

Re read it and you're incorrect.

[pettes]

He has been sighted in Belfast today

[DJE]

Yeah, they have pictures on Watchers on The Wall.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

Yeah, they have pictures on Watchers on The Wall.

Just saw them. Yay for the man bun. :)

[Spilt Pea Soup]

And one from behind. Yay for man buns.