Hayyoth Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 You're the one who said some people want full equality of outcome in culture and society. I asked for examples. You named "deep green environmentalists" as part of your response. What the suffering fuck do "deep green environmentalists" have to say about "full equality of outcome in culture and society?" I am literally just responding to the things you say, which do not connect in any logical way. I am reading you fine. It's just what you say is incoherent strawmanning My bad and fair enough. I didn't answer your original question properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiDisaster Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Just chiming in to say that I thought the video series was excellent and the number of 'Angry Jacks' in the comments section proving his point over and over and over again by doing exactly what he was talking about them doing in the video was the best part. So. Much. [url=http://media.giphy.com/media/l41lXPwHWohc2kxGg/giphy.gif]Popcorn[/url]. And now, back to my "time wasting diversions for children". :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionAhaiReborn Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Asked and answered. I used the term as a handy descriptor for discussing the groups involved in the gamergate clusterfuck. Anyway follow the argument, it's not so much the phrase having no meaning at all, just that the meaning changes radically depending on the individual and group using it. As a definitive phrase however it is without meaning. What I'm following is you throwing out a bunch of half-baked pejoratives, including 'social justice warriors,' and failing to follow up with specifics and even denying that they signify anything when called to explain yourself. It's a glib and unserious approach to discussion- insult first, refuse to answer questions later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galactus Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 https://storify.com/garaden/debunking-misinformation Here's some discussion RE: How to approach harassers by a couple of different people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hayyoth Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 What I'm following is you throwing out a bunch of half-baked pejoratives, including 'social justice warriors,' and failing to follow up with specifics and even denying that they signify anything when called to explain yourself. It's a glib and unserious approach to discussion- insult first, refuse to answer questions later. The gamergate shitstorm seems to consist of one group of idiots pointing out the bad behavior of another group of idiots and vice versa. I can say I genuinely and sincerely despise both groups involved in this, they seem as bad as each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The gamergate shitstorm seems to consist of one group of idiots pointing out the bad behavior of another group of idiots and vice versa. I can say I genuinely and sincerely despise both groups involved in this, they seem as bad as each other.Nope, you have to pick a side buddy. There's is only black &white, right &wrong here, no fancy new perspectives allowed. If you aren't a clone of us then you are our enemy!!!!!! This is gang warfare, you can't be all out in the open without your gang backing you up. If you refuse to sign up for one of these gangs then one will be assigned to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Walker Texas Ranger Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Hayyoth, Yes, you are obviously complementing people when you call them "Social Justice Warriors". A name like "Social Justice Warriors" has a lot more meaning packed into it than just the definitions of the words contained within. The Communist Party of China, for example, suppresses unions and jails people for not supporting capitalism. The NSDAP was more than just a group of socialists who supported German unions. I'm not saying that the Social Justice movement is anything like the two groups I used as examples, but that when people use the term as an insult, it's much more complicated just opposing social justice and equality. We've had this discussion a few times and I hold out little hope that anything useful will come of it before the thread is locked, again. That said: If you can look at the abuse and death threats and harassment received by people like Anita Sarkeesian, irrespective of your opinions of her work -- certainly it is not immune to criticism --- and see anything but a festering cesspool of shit in the Gamergate movement whence it comes, I don't want to know you. If you are speaking off the cuff and have not familiarized yourself with their "movement," then I strongly recommend that you shut the fuck up about it until you've caught up. There are months and months of history here. Stuff like Sad Puppies is just, well, kind of sad. I'm not aware of organized harassment on that front, although I suspect there's a certain amount of overlap between the two groups. The harassment and abuse of Sarkeesian, Wu, and others is beyond the pale and utterly reprehensible. But there has always been abuse and harassment of public figures, especially public figures who have been politicized, and I'm not convinced that this automatically invalidates everything all the arguments and grievances of the "side" the assholes are on. For example the family that owned the anti gay pizzeria in Indiana received rape and death threats. That does not invalidate the LGBT movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 But yes, I think Anita Saarkesian is wrong in the context that pacifism and feminism should not be equated and that female action heroes should be lauded rather than derided as solving problems in "masculine" ways. I also think her treatment of Mattie in True Grit and the Witcher series ignores a lot of very very important stuff to suit her own biases. I've watched all her videos, some more than once. Where does she equate "feminism" with "pacifism"? Further, "female action heroes" is generally and in broad strokes a second wave feminist thing, while most feminist today are third wavers of some kind and will level a different kind of critique. The Witcher 2 is also the most sexist cesspit, ever. Any defence of that will make me laugh. Witcher 3 I have not yet played, but if any of the criticism I have read is true, then it's basically "well it's improved" but from such a low level that it maybe beats what? GTA? Call of Duty? Even stuff like GTA5 at least have some feeble attempts to show that people who threaten and abuse women aren't nice people, while in the Witcher this is not at all as clearly delineated. The gamergate shitstorm seems to consist of one group of idiots pointing out the bad behavior of another group of idiots and vice versa. I can say I genuinely and sincerely despise both groups involved in this, they seem as bad as each other. Yeah no. "One side" threatened a few women with death, rape and mutilation. This is no no way acceptable or reasonable. There is no way you can call this "equal" without thinking that a man being offended equals death and rape threat for women. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 My bad and fair enough. I didn't answer your original question properly. So what people believe in "full equality of outcome in culture and society?" I am just asking you to expand upon a previous assertion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Anyway follow the argument, it's not so much the phrase having no meaning at all, just that the meaning changes radically depending on the individual and group using it. As a definitive phrase however it is without meaning. So is the descriptor "Catholic," but you don't seem to have a problem using that term. "O noes!1!! The term 'Catholic' is so broad and it can mean anything from child-molesting priests to self-sacrificing nuns, from gay people to straight people, from socialists to capitalists, etc. The term has no meaning!!" Your schtick is tiresome and bland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 So is the descriptor "Catholic," but you don't seem to have a problem using that term. "O noes!1!! The term 'Catholic' is so broad and it can mean anything from child-molesting priests to self-sacrificing nuns, from gay people to straight people, from socialists to capitalists, etc. The term has no meaning!!" Your schtick is tiresome and bland. He doesn't seem to be able to respond to my comment that this broadening of the term "social justice warrior" came from its detractors rather than from some coherent mass of people claiming the moniker. I am waiting for some kind of evidence that "deep green environmentalists" and "Marxists" talk very much about "social justice" in any sort of critical mass. And I strongly doubt Hayyoth has much real knowledge or experience of said environmentalists or Marxists, and just thinks he knows them because of some shit he read in Reason or, I dunno, Mel Gibson's Angry Catholic Quarterly. It's almost as if Hayyoth lampoons impossibly broad caricatures of people he imagines he disagrees with, and fails to back up his ridiculous assertions, because he can't do the basic lifting of engaging with actual arguments presented to him in these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glaurung Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 A name like "Social Justice Warriors" has a lot more meaning packed into it than just the definitions of the words contained within. The Communist Party of China, for example, suppresses unions and jails people for not supporting capitalism. The NSDAP was more than just a group of socialists who supported German unions. I'm not saying that the Social Justice movement is anything like the two groups I used as examples, but that when people use the term as an insult, it's much more complicated just opposing social justice and equality. The harassment and abuse of Sarkeesian, Wu, and others is beyond the pale and utterly reprehensible. But there has always been abuse and harassment of public figures, especially public figures who have been politicized, and I'm not convinced that this automatically invalidates everything all the arguments and grievances of the "side" the assholes are on. For example the family that owned the anti gay pizzeria in Indiana received rape and death threats. That does not invalidate the LGBT movement. This is a good but overlooked post. I don't know much about gamergate, so I'm not sure if it is appropriate here, but the overall message is a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 "Deep green environmentalists"? Is that like "deep blue sea" but green and with hippies instead of sharks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 The gamergate shitstorm seems to consist of one group of idiots pointing out the bad behavior of another group of idiots and vice versa. I can say I genuinely and sincerely despise both groups involved in this, they seem as bad as each other. If you truly think both "sides" of the situation are equally bad then I think there is something deeply and irreparably wrong with your brain. The harassment and abuse of Sarkeesian, Wu, and others is beyond the pale and utterly reprehensible. But there has always been abuse and harassment of public figures, especially public figures who have been politicized, and I'm not convinced that this automatically invalidates everything all the arguments and grievances of the "side" the assholes are on. For example the family that owned the anti gay pizzeria in Indiana received rape and death threats. That does not invalidate the LGBT movement. I agree, except for these points: 1. The LGBT movement is about more than that situation. Gamergate isn't, really. 2. There are some genuine problems with video game journalism. Some pretty big ones. By and large, Gamergaters don't seem interested in them. Some of them are committed by people they quite like, like Gamergate hero TotalBiscuit. Instead they tilt at windmills, attacking people for behaviors that aren't, in fact, unethical, and sometimes behaviors that did not happen. 3. Yes, harassment has always been a problem in public life. But women get disproportionately more and worse, and the harassment perpetrated by Gamergaters is... I'm not going to say it's unprecedented, but it's massive and crowdsourced and nonstop. Incidentally, those pizzeria owners publicly posted contact information for the couple who complained about the anti-gay policy for the purpose of inciting harassment against them, so I don't think they should get too comfortable up on that cross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 This is a good but overlooked post. I don't know much about gamergate, so I'm not sure if it is appropriate here, but the overall message is a good one. Overlooked? It's twenty minutes old. Seriously though: if you don't know anything about the situation, your opinions are probably not adding much to a discussion about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lily Valley Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Marxists? Deep green environmentalists? Their concepts of social justice would be very different from the other. If you're arguing for the existence of an accepted definition of the phrase please educate me and we'll move on. Do we have a Marxist in the house? Are you trying to turn this country into North Korea? :waits expectantly with her own popcorn: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyenon15 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Probably important to note that thinking Anita's videos are ridiculous and shitty work doesn't mean you are Gamergate affiliated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageGuy Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 nvm, misread what I quoted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Probably important to note that thinking Anita's videos are ridiculous and shitty work doesn't mean you are Gamergate affiliated It's fine to disagree with Sarkeesian, but Hayyoth and others seem to think she's as bad as the people threatening to rape and kill her. What specific assertions by Sarkeesian do you find to be ridiculous and shitty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Probably important to note that thinking Anita's videos are ridiculous and shitty work doesn't mean you are Gamergate affiliated Verily. Along the same line, it's also worth noting that just because someone has sensible and valid critiques of Sarkeesian's video blogs it doesn't mean that they are NOT also a Gamergate member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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