Timeline issues with young Cersei and more

[Mithras]

Unbidden, a memory came to her, of the feast King Aerys had thrown when Cersei first came to court, a girl as green as summer grass. Old Merryweather had been nattering about raising the duty on wine when Lord Rykker said, “If we need gold, His Grace should sit Lord Tywin on his chamber pot.” Aerys and his lickspittles laughed loudly, whilst Father stared at Rykker over his wine cup. Long after the merriment had died that gaze had lingered. Rykker turned away, turned back, met Father’s eyes, then ignored them, drank a tankard of ale, and stalked off red-faced, defeated by a pair of unflinching eyes.

 

This can only be the anniversary tourney in 272 where Aerys commented on Joanna’s breasts and Tywin tried to resign. And this was before the birth of Tyrion.

 

The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods. When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. “Never speak of it, child,” he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. “Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now.”

 

The rejection happened in the Tourney in honor of Viserys's birth at Lannisport in 276. Cersei’s memory of being 5 or 6 at the time when Tywin told her that she would marry Rhaegar can be fuzzy. Or not. My guess is that Tywin was already thinking of a proper time to introduce her twins to Aerys and bring Joanna to the court as Aerys ordered him and he chose this to happen for the anniversary tourney where Tywin expected Aerys to be merry enough for a betrothal of Rhaegar and Cersei. The breast comment ruined it all. But Tywin was not going to give up as he was indebted to Cersei now. He tried again in the tourney at Lannisport where he again expected Aerys to be merry enough to agree to the idea. After all, Aerys finally had a healthy son since Rhaegar.

 

She was ten when she finally saw her prince in the flesh, at the tourney her lord father had thrown to welcome King Aerys to the west. Viewing stands had been raised beneath the walls of Lannisport, and the cheers of the smallfolk had echoed off Casterly Rock like rolling thunder. They cheered Father twice as loudly as they cheered the king, the queen recalled, but only half as loudly as they cheered Prince Rhaegar.

 

This brings an interesting problem for George because Cersei first saw Rhaegar in the anniversary tourney in 276. However, Cersei definitely came to the court in the anniversary tourney in 272. So, by then 13-14 years old Rhaegar must be missing from the court. Else, Cersei as one of the guests of honor would be definitely introduced to him. Was Rhaegar squiring to someone and why did that person not come to court for the anniversary?

 

Cersei had been so happy that day. Elsewise she would never have dared visit the tent of Maggy the Frog. She had only done it to show Jeyne and Melara that the lioness fears nothing.

 

“That day” refers to a day during the tourney at Lannisport in 276. The rejection was announced at the end of that tourney.

 

In conclusion,

 

• Tywin planned the Rhaegar-Cersei match as early as 271-272.
• He could not succeed to bring up the subject in the Anniversary Tourney in 272.
• Cersei twisted baby Tyrion’s prick around 273-274.
• Cersei saw Rhaegar for the first time in 276.
• Cersei visited Maggy’s tent during the tourney.
• Rejection.

 

As a final question; do you think Tywin really stopped trying to wed Cersei to Rhaegar even after 276? A Lannister always pays his debts and Tywin was indebted to Cersei. Note that the Defiance of Duskendale happened the next year and Tywin would gladly have Aerys killed by the Darklyns if not for Barristan. Do you think the Lord Darklyn could have dared to take the king captive if someone of power (like Tywin) encouraged him and gave him assurances previously?

[Chaircat Meow]

OK, so ...

 

Tywin didn't expect Aerys to agree to the match in 276. He knew by then he'd need to overthrow the king and put Rhaegar on the throne for the match to happen. Marrying Cersei to King Rhaegar was something he wanted to do so he could have his revenge on Aerys.

 

Telling Cersei she was going to marry Rhae after the 272 Tourney (and likely after Joanna's death, maybe as a consolation for the loss of her mother) fits. There is also the Dornish issue to consider. Until Lady Joanna died it would appear Tywin did not intend Cersei to marry Rhaegar.

 

edit: either Cersei forgot Rhaegar was at the 272 Tourney, or he was away. I don't think Tywin orchestrated the defiance, but he had an inkling Aerys would mess things up if he went alone, and so he used reverse psychology to get that to happen. I suspect he wanted Aerys alive but deposed, but he'd have likely settled for dead. He didn't want to alienate Rhaegar though, so he had to be careful.

[Chaircat Meow]

Just an addition to my above post. If Cersei was six or seven Tywin told her about a potential match in 272 or 273, not 271. If Cersei was born in 266 she has her fifth birthday in 271. She was not six until the following year.

[Varys' member]

It always baffled me how people take memories (in the books) as infallible pieces of information. In practice, memories, especially old ones, should be extremely inaccurate.

 

I'm looking at you, lemongaters.

[Balerion the kitten]

It always baffled me how people take memories (in the books) as infallible pieces of information. In practice, memories, especially old ones, should be extremely inaccurate.
 
I'm looking at you, lemongaters.

Obviously dany was raised in braavos, but it's times like these I wish she wasn't

[Lord Hanna]

It always baffled me how people take memories (in the books) as infallible pieces of information. In practice, memories, especially old ones, should be extremely inaccurate.

 

I'm looking at you, lemongaters.

Yeah, not sure why people are surprised when memories do not equal 100% accuracy. 

 

Think back to when you were 5-6, not many people will have 100% accurate memories of that period of their life.

[Varys' member]

 

Think back to when you were 5-6, not many people will have 100% accurate memories of that period of their life.

 

When I was 5, I remember eating roasted beef. It was a bit too salty. The scent of lavender in the room made me sick so I walked outside. I counted 7 birds, one was orange with white on its back. The rest of the birds were mostly red with pale heads. Then I told my cousin that I had had 3 cups juice that morning, but one of them was only 2/3 filled. Ah yes and there was a lemon tree in the backyard. It was monday, the sun had just set.

[Lord Hanna]

 

When I was 5, I remember eating roasted beef. It was a bit too salty. The scent of lavender in the room made me sick so I walked outside. I counted 7 birds, one was orange with white on its back. The rest of the birds were mostly red with pale heads. Then I told my cousin that I had had 3 cups juice that morning, but one of them was only 2/3 filled. Ah yes and there was a lemon tree in the backyard. It was monday, the sun had just set.

Did the Hound kiss you and did you also remember thinking the neighbor girl had good birthing hips, then thinking no, she doesn't ? 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Cersei was promised the match by Tywin in either 272 or 273 AC (six or seven). As Joanna had been plotting to wed Cersei to Oberyn or Elia to Jaime (or both), Tywin, though most likely already entertaining the thoughts of a Rhaegar-match, would most likely not have shared that idea yet with Cersei.

Cersei went to court in 272 AC. It is possible that she wasn't allowed to be at the feast (she was only five or six years old, after all). And after Aerys' insults, Tywin might have kept his family out of sight, leading to Cersei never having seen Rhaegat before 276 AC.

The feast Cersei remembers as 'when she first came to court' seems to me to have been when she went to live at court at the age of 12, as a feast was given when she arrived. If Jaime can be a squire as green as summer grass at that age, Cersei can be a girl as green as summer grass, certainly.

[spoon89]

OK, so ...

 

Tywin didn't expect Aerys to agree to the match in 276. He knew by then he'd need to overthrow the king and put Rhaegar on the throne for the match to happen. Marrying Cersei to King Rhaegar was something he wanted to do so he could have his revenge on Aerys.

 

Telling Cersei she was going to marry Rhae after the 272 Tourney (and likely after Joanna's death, maybe as a consolation for the loss of her mother) fits. There is also the Dornish issue to consider. Until Lady Joanna died it would appear Tywin did not intend Cersei to marry Rhaegar.

 

edit: either Cersei forgot Rhaegar was at the 272 Tourney, or he was away. I don't think Tywin orchestrated the defiance, but he had an inkling Aerys would mess things up if he went alone, and so he used reverse psychology to get that to happen. I suspect he wanted Aerys alive but deposed, but he'd have likely settled for dead. He didn't want to alienate Rhaegar though, so he had to be careful.

 

Remember that the Martell's hopes on making a match between house Lannister and Martell did not seem to hinge on Tywin, but on Joanna whom was close friends the Princess of Dorne from childhood due serving in the royal court together. Joanna passed away during childbirth with Tyrion, before the Martells arrived and Tywin refused the matches at that point. He does not say it, but it's obvious that he had did so with hopes of wedding Cersei and Rhaegar. This occurred in 273AC.

 

I fully expect that he thought with Aerys getting a second son, his continued service and loyalty to the crown (and buying a crap ton of the crown debt), that Aerys would likely accept the betrothal at the tourney in Lannisport (early 276AC) and when he was refused, he likely soured on Aerys even more so. I think the Defiance at Duskendale in late 276AC provided him with an opportunity, but I doubt that he encouraged it (its far to risky a move for Tywin to actively have a direct hand in it).

[lidsa]

When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. 

Maybe Tywin wasn't talking about Rhaegar at all and Cersei just remembers it wrong. Maybe Tywin wanted to go through with Joanna's wishes, Oberyn is a prince too after all.

[Mithras]

Maybe Tywin wasn't talking about Rhaegar at all and Cersei just remembers it wrong. Maybe Tywin wanted to go through with Joanna's wishes, Oberyn is a prince too after all.

 

But Oberyn's father was not styled as "His Grace" which is what Tywin said in the quote above. Besides, Oberyn's mother was the ruling Princess and her husband was her consort.

[Lykos]

As a final question; do you think Tywin really stopped trying to wed Cersei to Rhaegar even after 276?

 

No, I don't. :)

 

"never let your sentiment stand in the way of your ambition" - Tywin's ambition was to marry his family into the ruling dragon-dynasty.

[Mithras]

 

Whether Tyrions birth (273 AC) came first, or Cersei being promised the match by Tywin (272 AC or 273 AC), is unknown. That Joanna entertained another match for Cersei prior to her death might be a point into the direction of Tywins promise having come after Cersei hurting Tyrion (very shortly after his birth). In fact, Tywin might have brought it up due to the dornish visit as well.

Cersei's visit to Maggy was last, in 276 AC, the tourney held in Lannisport for Viserys' birth

 

 

Or

 

1. Tywin and Joanna agreed that Cersei-Rhaegar match would be awesome before they came to the court.

2. Joanna was pissed to Aerys because of his insult at the court

3. She abandoned the idea and looked for other matches for Jaime/Cersei. She talked with her friend Mama Martell about the Oberyn/Cersei Jaime/Elia matches.

4. Tywin was not content with anything less than a royal match for his children. But he was ruled by Joanna at home and didnot have a voice in this matter.

5. Joanna's plans died with her.

6. Cersei twisted Tyrion's prick.

 

Cersei was promised the match by Tywin in either 272 or 273 AC (six or seven). As Joanna had been plotting to wed Cersei to Oberyn or Elia to Jaime (or both), Tywin, though most likely already entertaining the thoughts of a Rhaegar-match, would most likely not have shared that idea yet with Cersei.

Cersei went to court in 272 AC. It is possible that she wasn't allowed to be at the feast (she was only five or six years old, after all). And after Aerys' insults, Tywin might have kept his family out of sight, leading to Cersei never having seen Rhaegat before 276 AC.

The feast Cersei remembers as 'when she first came to court' seems to me to have been when she went to live at court at the age of 12, as a feast was given when she arrived. If Jaime can be a squire as green as summer grass at that age, Cersei can be a girl as green as summer grass, certainly.

 

Or it might be an idea agreed by Joanna and Tywin which Joanna abandoned after being insulted by Aerys.

 

Rickon was allowed in the seat when Robert came to Winterfell.

 

It was the fourth hour of the welcoming feast laid for the king. Jon’s brothers and sisters had been seated with the royal children, beneath the raised platform where Lord and Lady Stark hosted the king and queen. 

 

But the quote is very precise. It was the first time Cersei came to the court. It is possible that Cersei might be misremembering and mixing her arrivals to the court but that would be admitting defeat and not a good authorial choice.

[Chaircat Meow]

Remember that the Martell's hopes on making a match between house Lannister and Martell did not seem to hinge on Tywin, but on Joanna whom was close friends the Princess of Dorne from childhood due serving in the royal court together. Joanna passed away during childbirth with Tyrion, before the Martells arrived and Tywin refused the matches at that point. He does not say it, but it's obvious that he had did so with hopes of wedding Cersei and Rhaegar. This occurred in 273AC.

Yes, that's why he rejected the Dornish. Presumably he would not have done so if Joanna had still been alive, given he had agreed to the Dornish visiting the Rock in the first place. This means that wanting to marrying Cersei to Rhae is a reaction to Joanna's death.

I fully expect that he thought with Aerys getting a second son, his continued service and loyalty to the crown (and buying a crap ton of the crown debt), that Aerys would likely accept the betrothal at the tourney in Lannisport (early 276AC) and when he was refused, he likely soured on Aerys even more so. I think the Defiance at Duskendale in late 276AC provided him with an opportunity, but I doubt that he encouraged it (its far to risky a move for Tywin to actively have a direct hand in it).

Why do you fully expect it? It's abundantly clear Aerys was determined to put Tywin in his place from 268 onwards. He was never going to let Tywin be a Targ king's grandfather. And Tywin would know that.

[Balerion the kitten]

And yes, calling people (not the posts, you called the people) obnoxious is an insult.
 
Anyways, i wasn't derailing, i was joking around with a poster. You can easily ignore it and continue the thread like the others have done. If i affected their enjoyment of this thread, i apologize to them. 

And making fun of a theory that people get enough hassle over isn't insulting? Plus, people can be extremely unpleasant when it comes to the lemongate theory. I didn't direct the insult towards anyone, I was statinga fact which now i can admit was insulting. Didn't mean it to be.
And you did affect the enjoyment of this thread for me by "joking around" about the lemongate theory when there really wasn't any need.
Okay now i'm done responding.

[Mithras]

Yes, that's why he rejected the Dornish. Presumably he would not have done so if Joanna had still been alive, given he had agreed to the Dornish visiting the Rock in the first place. This means that wanting to marrying Cersei to Rhae is a reaction to Joanna's death.

 

Or the Martell match was a reaction to Aerys' insult to Joanna.

[Lykos]

^That's what I thought, though on Joanna's initiative rather than Tywin's - He ruled the realm, but she ruled him. My idea is that Tywin put Joanna to the task of convincing Aerys to agree to the marriage and something happened that Joanna refused to speak of,  but Tywin suspected rape. 

 

When Joanna died at Tyrion's birth, Tywin felt that he sacrificed her for his ambition - and he doesn't strike me as the person who cuts his losses and moves on, he tried to give meaning to this sacrifice and things got even worse.

[Chaircat Meow]

Or the Martell match was a reaction to Aerys' insult to Joanna.

How would that work though ...

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

Why do you fully expect it? It's abundantly clear Aerys was determined to put Tywin in his place from 268 onwards. He was never going to let Tywin be a Targ king's grandfather. And Tywin would know that.

 

I think he genuinely thought that Aerys would change his mind.

 

 

Their father had summoned Cersei to court when she was twelve, hoping to make her a royal marriage. He refused every offer for her hand, preferring to keep her with him in the Tower of the Hand while she grew older and more womanly and ever more beautiful. No doubt he was waiting for Prince Viserys to mature, or perhaps for Rhaegar's wife to die in childbed. Elia of Dorne was never the healthiest of women.

 

One of Tywins defining traits is his supreme (and often justified) arrogance, a belief that he can shape events to suit what he wants.