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Theory for the Conclusion of a Major Part of the Saga in ADoS


Mithras

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Too few books and too much has to happen. Most of it in the Riverlands and North.

 

The only way I see Arya returning to KL is after the war if Jon goes there. She has too many unfinished buisnisess in Riverlands and North and she is not really connected to the political part of the story,  though there are some hints that she may meet Jaime, Sandor and Sansa again.

 

Cersie and wildfire is a good guess, but she could end up burning Lannisport or Casterly Rock.

 

Sansa has some very disturbing, foreshadowy thoughs about Ser Illyn. Personally I think she will be killed by UnGregor and it will be her not any other character who will slay him just before that. I have to admit Ser Illyn dont fit in it well. 

 

I  so want Jaime Sandor and Arya reunite in whichever combination. Sandor and Jaime seem most likely.

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According to the early draft of George, he has been preparing the Others as the greatest threat to the Realm. It will be more disastrous than Wot5K and Dany’s Invasion of Westeros. I don't see any change in George's plan regarding this broad narrative.

 

Assuming the first draft regarding the Others still holds (and Martin hasn't changed it based on the development), everything I said is still possible.

 

The Others can still be the greatest threat to the realm even if they do not take over all of the realm, or even all of the North for that matter. 

 

I don't think they will take all of Westeros, and I think there will still be a North left to rule over after the Others are defeated. I also don't see the Others being defeated by some Lord of the Rings-esque battle between the living and the dead. I think our heroes will defeat their leadership directly and make all those wights fall down. 

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. I don't see a unified seven kingdoms at the end of aDoS. I see the North. I see the Vale (since its survived most of the destruction thus far, why wouldn't it just declare itself independent?). Lannister territory will likely be carved up (don't see Jaime or Tyrion having the influence to hold on to it by the end of tWoW). 

 

Tyrell/Martell territory will probably still be intact but a lot of their soldiers will be dead from civil wars by the end of tWoW. Huge influx of refugees from the North feeling the Others is going to strain all southern territories, making future conflicts even more difficult to fight. I think they will declare their own independence by the end of the series as well. 

 

Former Baratheon territory will probably be carved up or secured by a Baratheon bastard.

 

Its possible we'll have independent kingdoms based on origins. Such as First Men in the North, Andals in the middle, and Rhoynars in the Southern parts. Even if Dany has any role against the Others (I personally don't see it, as far as we know dragons had no role in the first long night and were always native to Essos before Targs brought them over), I think she will return to Essos at the end of it all and continue her quest of obliterating slavery/etc. 

 

I think most people who will survive this game until its end will see that having multiple kingdoms is actually more stable than one giant kingdom prone to the machinations of those within it. You kill one king (Robert) and you set off a chain reaction of civil wars due to claims that brings about untold misery and death. Three separate entities could act as a good checks and balance system, and the history of various houses within these regions and their relationships to each other is varied enough that you would have enough inter-marrying to stabilize things further. I don't see the feudal system of Westeros being overturned any time soon, if at all within that universe's entire future. 

 

Wow this got way too long. Sorry peeps, late night semi-drunken rambling (so also sorry for typos). 

:agree:

I think we're working towards a split 7 kingdoms (or more) just like before Aegon's Landing.

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Aegon is already conquering the Stormlands while Dany is off shitting herself in the wilderness.

Something drastic has to happen in order to prevent Aegon from becoming king before Dany even steps foot in Westeros.

 

fAegon was already a king before he set foot on Westeros. What matters is of course recognition by proper Westerosi authorities. I think fAegon will have a string of continuous victories until Dany comes. By that time, fAegon will be the king recognized by many regions. He will have the support of the High Sparrow at Oldtown though KL will be in Lannister hands.

 

Not bad lad. I question Jon being that far south at the end- and given what we know about sansa I think she will eventually be heading north with a vale army. At least that's littlefingers plan anyway.

 

I think Littlefinger’s luck is running out fast. I think Dany will be the one to use the Vale armies in the Second Dance of Dragons against fAegon. Sansa leading armies here and there does not make any sense to me. She was never trained to lead armies. Not even LF knows how to lead armies and military campaigns.

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Assuming the first draft regarding the Others still holds (and Martin hasn't changed it based on the development), everything I said is still possible.

 

The Others can still be the greatest threat to the realm even if they do not take over all of the realm, or even all of the North for that matter. 

 

I don't think they will take all of Westeros, and I think there will still be a North left to rule over after the Others are defeated. I also don't see the Others being defeated by some Lord of the Rings-esque battle between the living and the dead. I think our heroes will defeat their leadership directly and make all those wights fall down. 

 

I think once the Wall is breached, the Others might not linger in the North where they will face the toughest resistance. That would be a waste of resources and the Others so far do not look like the guys who waste their resources. Every wight counts to them. So, it is a better plan to by-pass the North and prey on the Southrons who do not know how to deal with winter, much less the Others. If the terrible winter conditions expand to the South, the Others might create great destruction there instead of working their ass off against Starks and the NW in the North.

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No. Sansa does not need to know the prophecy to have a motive to destroy Cersei.

 

I hate self-fulfilling prophecies. I already discussed the laziness of Maggy's prophecy in another thread.

 

 

None of these opinions holds any weight unless you have a copy of TWoW at hand.

Hating them makes no difference.  They happen.  The are a time-honored literary device.  

I recall that thread. I also recall making a largely-ignored statement about the fortune being a diversionary tactic hiding the deeper tragedy to Cersei's narrative...that of becoming what she hates.

 

It's not Maggy's prophecy.  It's Maggy's fortune.  It's Cersei's prophecy. Yes, I know that's a minor point but I don't feel well and I'm picky about such details today.

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I think once the Wall is breached, the Others might not linger in the North where they will face the toughest resistance. That would be a waste of resources and the Others so far do not look like the guys who waste their resources. Every wight counts to them. So, it is a better plan to by-pass the North and prey on the Southrons who do not know how to deal with winter, much less the Others. If the terrible winter conditions expand to the South, the Others might create great destruction there instead of working their ass off against Starks and the NW in the North.

The Others are presumed to be looking to wipe out the whole civilization.  There's zero reason to think they plan to bypass the North; they'll have to deal with them eventually.  Moreover, why would 'every wight count'?  Every person they kill generates a new wight.  Nothing about how they've been deployed to date suggests the Others consider them a precious resource.  Quite the opposite.

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If this happens mid to end ADOS, then what's going on with the Others?? (if Dany, Jon, et al., are in KL?)

 

That's what worries me about the books, is there enough time to fully develop the Others plot-line AND the game of thrones plot-lines? 

I think so.  Mainly because Martin is a better writer than the rest of us are.  He also has the benefit of actually knowing where things are going, while all of us are just guessing.

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How does becoming a hostage again make her overcome her fear?
 
I think her arc goes more in the direction of having to make similar decisions that Cersei had to make and struggling with the question, "wait, is what I'm doing right now evil? Am I like Cersei?" Maybe she will hold someone hostage herself at some point and then reflect on her time in the Red Keep and so on.
 
I don't see her and Cersei meeting up again.

.


Not only that, but her generally becoming an aware and capable political player would complete that arc. Knowing she can play the game against Cersei would dissipate that fear.
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None of these opinions holds any weight unless you have a copy of TWoW at hand.

.

Well if we're being sticklers about it the same could be said of practically all of your posts in this thread :p
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  • 2 weeks later...

Why do I need TWOW to assess the probability of events based on logic and what has already happened?

 

Because your logic is heavily biased in this case. No need to repeat the things I already posted in another thread.

 

The Others are presumed to be looking to wipe out the whole civilization.  There's zero reason to think they plan to bypass the North; they'll have to deal with them eventually.  Moreover, why would 'every wight count'?  Every person they kill generates a new wight.  Nothing about how they've been deployed to date suggests the Others consider them a precious resource.  Quite the opposite.

 

One thing the Others proved is that they know their own strength and weaknesses. Similarly, they know the strength and weaknesses of men. They act strategically. All of their attacks show this.

 

So, it makes a lot of sense to save the Northmen to last while they destroy easier targets. That is the same thing they are doing right now. They are concentrated on Hardhome instead of trying an attack to breach the Wall or the cave of the CotF because Hardhome is a much easier target. 

 

Every wight counts because wights cannot reproduce to create more wights (that we know of). That makes the wights a limited and precious resource. If they spend 100 wights to kill a group of 50 people, they end up with 50 less wights. That is not a good bargain.

 

So, once again it is proved that your claim of being the beacon of logic failed and all you do is to be contrarian.

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This is a theory about how I see the conclusion of a major part of the series in ADoS. I think George might not have decided how exactly he will get to this ending in detail but this ending more or less should be his endgame.

 

Here is the draft:

 

  • Dany will defeat Dorne as the last stronghold pursuing fAegon’s cause. Then, she will march on the KL.
  • At this time, Cersei will still be in charge at the KL. Because neither Dany nor fAegon will have the opportunity or desire to take the KL while their rival lives.
  • Sansa will be a hostage of Cersei again.
  • The Mad Queen will reactivate the wildfire plot of Aerys.
  • Arya (having killed Varys in KL already and witnessed the unstoppable UnGregor), will assemble a rescue team to get Sansa out of there before it is too late. She will need a team to be able to deal with the looming UnGregor.
  • Arya will recruit Sandor for the task. Brienne and Pod will also be in the team. Jaime will help them from inside (probably after Brienne tells him that she is carrying his child). Cersei, like Aerys, will command Jaime to slay the intruders, especially Brienne whom she will be rightfully suspicious of having an affair with Jaime. Jon will join this team too. After all, UnGregor is a creature of necromancy, a threat to the Realm and his vows allow him to deal with this monster just like regular wights.
  • Arya will lead the team through the secret passages she already know and will have learned more.
  • Here we will finally have the Cleganebowl. Sandor will manage to slay UnGregor but he will not survive the fight. Pod will slay another KG (Osmund) but he will also take mortal wounds and die at the feet of Sansa.
  • Jaime will go into the throne room and strangle Cersei with the Hand’s chain. Since he only has a single hand, Cersei will manage to draw his dagger and mortally wound him.
  • This time, no one will be able to stop the pyromancers.
  • The KL will be burned to crisp by wildfire.
  • I will not be surprised if Arya dies in the confrontation, possibly staying by the wounded and dying Sandor while the wildfire rages around them and the ceiling collapses.

 

This chain of events will happen mid to end of ADoS.

 

I will save the explanations of the quotes for discussions in the further posts.

 

Foreshadowing for Jaime killing Cersei

 

“Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

“Now you sound like Aerys.”

Her nostrils flared. “Guard your tongue, ser.”

“I love you too, sweet sister.”    

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me.

                                                                          

She thought of Joffrey, clawing at his neck. In his last moments he had looked to her in desperate appeal, and a sudden memory had stopped her heart; a drop of red blood hissing in a candle flame, a croaking voice that spoke of crowns and shrouds, of death at the hands of the valonqar.

 

“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”

 

Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into her neck. “For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman’s hands are warm,” he said.

 

“No more than I want Joy to marry the son of some scheming turncloak bitch. She deserves better.” Jaime would happily have strangled the woman [Sybell Westerling] with her seashell necklace.

 

Note that a single hand is enough to strangle someone with a necklace.

 

Foreshadowing for Cersei killing Jaime

 

I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze.

 

“Prince Aemon the Dragonknight [parallel to Jaime] cried the day Princess Naerys [parallel to Cersei] wed his brother Aegon,” Sansa Stark said, “and the twins Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk died with tears on their cheeks after each had given the other a mortal wound.”

 

Foreshadowing for Jaime and Cersei dying together

 

I cannot die while Cersei lives, he told himself. We will die together as we were born together.

 

“My queen,” said Qyburn, “have you... forgotten? Ser Jaime has no sword hand. If he should champion you and lose...”

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it. “He will not lose. Not Jaime. Not with my life at stake.”

 

“Jaime? Have you had word?”

“None. Cersei, you may need to prepare yourself for—”

“If he were dead, I would know it. We came into this world together, Uncle. He would not go without me.”

 

Foreshadowing for the Rescue Operation

 

“I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together.”

 

“True knights.” The queen seemed to find that wonderfully amusing. “No doubt you’re right. So why don’t you just eat your broth like a good girl and wait for Symeon Star-Eyes [parallel of Brienne] and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight [parallel of Jaime] to come rescue you, sweetling. I’m sure it won’t be very long now.”

 

Sansa turned toward the sept. Two stableboys [foreshadowing to Arya and Pod] followed, and one of the guards whose watch was ended [foreshadowing to Jon]. Others fell in behind them.

                

“If it is Sandor Clegane that we encounter, what would you have me do?”

Pray hard, Jaime thought, and run. “Send him to join his beloved brother and be glad the gods made seven hells. One would never be enough to hold both of the Cleganes.”

 

Near the kennels a group of men-at-arms were fighting a pair of dogs. Tyrion stopped long enough to see the smaller dog tear half the face off the larger one, and earned a few coarse laughs by observing that the loser now resembled Sandor Clegane.

 

You stupid girl, the queen thought, angry even now. Jaime does not even know you are alive. Back then her brother lived only for swords [Arya] and dogs [Sandor] and horses [Brienne]... and for her, his twin.

 

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound [=Sandor]... Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful [=Jaime]... Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood [=UnGregor].

 

“I’ve heard his lordship say this war began when the Hand sent him out to bring the king’s justice to Gregor Clegane, and that’s how he means for it to end.”

 

Foreshadowing for the Hour of the Wolf

                                                                                               

Ned tried a swallow. “Dregs.” He felt as though he were about to bring the wine back up.

“All men must swallow the sour with the sweet. High lords and eunuchs alike. Your hour [The Hour of the Wolf] has come, my lord.”

“My daughters…”

 

It was late at night, during the hour of the wolf, when the remaining lords departed the council chamber, leaving Maegor to brood alone. Early the next morning, he was found dead on the throne, his robes sodden with blood, his arms slashed open by the barbs of the Iron Throne.

 

Lord Cregan Stark held sway at court. This came to be known as the Hour of the Wolf.

 

Ned was quite concerned for his daughters. Ned’s spirit might ask Jon to save them when the time comes. The Hour of the Wolf is named after a Stark coming down to the KL, kicking ass, doing justice and leaving. Also noteworthy that Maegor was last seen alive during the hour of the wolf. Cersei will surely steal some pages from Maegor’s book.

Why does Sansa end up in King's Landing as Cersei's prisoner again?  I suppose she could be our damsel in distress, however, I am sincerely hoping that her story line makes her much stronger.  I would think she would be able to outsmart Cersei, but, then again, Cersei is making a descent into madness so, crazy = unpredictable.  That fits in with Maegor as well. 

 

Also, I think Sandor will rescue Sansa in any case.  He is the true knight.   I completely agree that Jaime is the Valonqar and for all the reasons you listed.

 

I think Bran will be the one that guides Jon, not Eddard's spirit, but that is only my opinion.  When Jon goes to Winterfell, it could be either or both Eddard and Bran.  One through the crypt, the other through the Weirwood.

 

The hour of the wolf had Cregan Stark being the hand of the king long enough to administer some justice and then he resigned and went home.  Many of the older northmen stayed in King's Landing due to the onset of Winter and not wanting to be a burden to their families.  I will be interested to see what other Northmen make their way to King's Landing to help Jon.

 

If Jon is in King's Landing, who is leading the fight against the Others?

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