Is the Prince that was Promised equal to Azor Ahai Reborn?

[Mithras]

Currently, we have been given indirect accounts of the prophecies surrounding Azor Ahai and almost nothing about the prophecy of the prince that was promised. AA is a hero who saved the humanity in the Long Night and prophesized to come again one more time to save the humanity again. tPtwP is a hero prophesized to come in the future. There is no clue that tPtwP saved he humanity once in the Long Night like AA supposedly did. With the available information, this looks like an important structural difference between these two figures.

 

Still, Mel uses these terms interchangeably though she prefers Azor Ahai more. Aemon did not reject to this unification though he did not call this savior anything other than tPtwP.

 

I think without seeing the actual sources, it would be quite erroneous to trust in the conclusions of Aemon or Mel or Rhaegar. After all, they are all proven to be wrong about the prophecies. Don’t you think this should hurt their credibility a bit?

 

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

 

Yandel reports a similar unification too. In this case, it is clear that all of the heroes he mentioned belong to different places and have different myths.

 

Should we equate tPtwP to these other versions of AA too?

[CJ McLannister]

I think they're all based on the same concepts, but that does not mean they are equivalent.  We know there are stories of ancient heroism, and a messianic expectation common among several of the cultures presented.  

-If you believe in magic, they are probably all about the same past and future events, even if the details don't line up.  

-If you don't believe in magic, they're just following a basic form of apocalyptic rhetoric in order to give hope and bind followers to a common faith.

[Ronfried_IV]

You forgot the unamed Last Hero, with his 12 companions.

 

It is really hard to say if they are all the same or different persons, George showed us repeadetly that there are no true heroes and that heroic deeds are not necessarily involve fighting or classical behavior you expect from a hero. Heroes are born in the situation and rarely  recognized as those, so you never know who history will remember and for what,so the range of the term hero can be really widly spread.

 

And even Rheagar knew "the dragon has three heads" so we can't say if there will be 1 hero (AAR+TPTWP) and 2 supporters or they are complete different persons and one head is AAR the 2nd TPTWS and the 3rd is The Stallion that mounts the world, or a completly different propecy. Or something else like every prophecy and legend is a different hero from a different cultural background and in the end we have 12 or 13 heros and they will reenact the LH+12 companion story, since history repeats itself, but this is unlikly.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There can be only one!

[Mithras]

You forgot the unamed Last Hero, with his 12 companions.

 

Last Hero is in another category because he was not prophesized to come again.

 

So, we have this LH who lived during the First Long Night but is not prophesied to return for the Second Long Night.

                                                      

We have this PtwP who did not live during the First Long Night but is prophesied to return for the Second Long Night.

 

Finally we have this AA who lived during the First Long Night and is prophesied to return as AAR for the Second Long Night.

[Mithras]

How many times has George warned us about not to put blind trust in prophecies both inside the story and in SSM’s?

[Ronfried_IV]

How many times has George warned us about not to put blind trust in prophecies both inside the story and in SSM’s?

But he wouldn't have included them or repeatetly mentioned them in variations just to be nothing but a red hering

[Amris]

We do not have enough hard facts to know. GRRM is keeping it all (seemingly intentionally) vague.

 

GRRM seems to use the prophecies as a literary vehicle to add mystery to the series and keep the reader speculating. So he does not want us to be able to come up with a clear answer.

 

I think the 'prophecies' are more meta devices directed at the readers than in-universe actable upon intelligence. On the contrary: In-universe they seem to mainly cause chaos if people try to adhere to them.

 

Examples: Rhaegar and his PtwP-mania that causes a civil war, Melisandre and her Azor Ahai- possession that causes lots of innocents being burnt needlessly, Cersei going paranoid over her Valonqar prophecy, Stannis, trusting in Melisandre's compulsive Azor Ahai-ism persuades himself its for the best of the realm to start yet another civil war, kill his brother with blood magic and whatnot. Dany also planning to start a civil war out of a sense of entitlement (strictly speaking Dany is not consciously following a prophecy (yet?) but I add her here because she too is on a 'mission' which she thinks is for the greater good - but so far mainly causes lots of deaths.)

 

And thus I think we again are at GRRM's meta-level: GRRM showing that people claiming to have a 'higher mission', a 'calling by the gods' etc pp have to be viewed with deep distrust.

 

So in the end we can speculate to our hearts' content and fill the endless time of waiting - but we won't be able to solve it because we aren't meant to. The one thing we are meant to take away is that following prophetic 'higher callings' is a Bad Thing (TM).

 

 

[CJ McLannister]

But he wouldn't have included them or repeatetly mentioned them in variations just to be nothing but a red hering

 

I think he would.  Prophecy is bound by interpretation.  Multiple prophecies can be "correct" but be interpreted or transmitted poorly, making them seem false.

 

Now, are any of the prophecies we've seen just totally made up?  Maybe.  There are also lots of things that aren't really identified as prophecy, but could be interpreted and applied as such (dreams, patchface, Momont's raven, etc.).  

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

yes.

 

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

 

 

Here Aemon is talking about the prophecy of the ptwp.

too many elements are present in both prophecies. Bleeding star, salt, smoke, dragons..

 

And George once used the terms interchangeably as well.

 

i think we should only mistrust those characters´ interpretation of prophecy.. not the prophecies themselves.

in the end all of them will come to pass, some way or another.

[Jubal]

There is a lot of speculation about whether the Children of the Forest are for or against humanity.

 

What if (as many on here have speculated) the Children are either in collusion with, or using, the Others?

 

What if Jon Snow is tPtwP, and is not AAR?

 

What if the prophecy of tPtwP was a prince that was promised - to the Children???

 

DUN dun dun DUN dun DUN DUN.... (dramatic music)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I believe that there all the same Messianic figure but each culture gave him their own features.

[Mithras]

Here Aemon is talking about the prophecy of the ptwp.

too many elements are present in both prophecies. Bleeding star, salt, smoke, dragons..

 

Is he? Note that he does not mention any specifics about tPtwP here. He only mentions salt/smoke/bleeding star and dragon waking from stone. These are the same things in AAR prophecy if we believe in Mel’s accounts. We are also sure that Aemon knows the AAR prophecy and Lightbringer.

 

So, it should not take a genius to equate these two prophecies if they have the same elements. That brings us to the question why did not anybody make this connection before?

 

Besides, Rhaegar made a connection between tPtwP and the Song of Ice and Fire which is completely missing in AAR prophecy. Another thing missing in the AAR prophecy is the dragon with three heads. In return, Lightbringer or a similar weapon is missing in tPtwP prophecy.

 

Aemon never addressed these issues. His words look like ravings of an old and dying man who has lost his wits.

 

And George once used the terms interchangeably as well.

 

He was talking from Mel's POV.

[LordStoneheart]

I like how forboding their names sound.

Neferion - Nefarious
Eldric Shadowchaser - Eldritch
Yin Tar - Winter?
Azor Ahai - Abhorred?
Hyrkoon - Harpoon? Hercules?

Just a thought.

I believe that there all the same Messianic figure but each culture gave him their own features.

My thoughts too, except I think the figure was probably not a good one.

[Ronfried_IV]

 

Is he? Note that he does not mention any specifics about tPtwP here. He only mentions salt/smoke/bleeding star and dragon waking from stone. These are the same things in AAR prophecy if we believe in Mel’s accounts. We are also sure that Aemon knows the AAR prophecy and Lightbringer.

 

So, it should not take a genius to equate these two prophecies if they have the same elements. That brings us to the question why did not anybody make this connection before?

 

Besides, Rhaegar made a connection between tPtwP and the Song of Ice and Fire which is completely missing in AAR prophecy. Another thing missing in the AAR prophecy is the dragon with three heads. In return, Lightbringer or a similar weapon is missing in tPtwP prophecy.

 

Aemon never addressed these issues. His words look like ravings of an old and dying man who has lost his wits.

 

 

He was talking from Mel's POV.

 

 

Not yet sure how it fits in but maybe you have a good idea. Regarding Aemon, he talks about the Prince that was promised and connects the promise to Dany as we know the gender could probably mixed up in the prophecy. Aemon thinks Dany is TPTWP, but before he leaves the wall for good, he leaves the Jade Compendium for Jon to find, with a hint to the Azor Arhai legend, not sure if it is only about Azor Arhai or Azor Ahai reborn too. But the more you think about it the whole thing stinks a bit.

He believes Dany is tptwp and leaves a book for Jon regarding AA. Sure could only be so Jon can inform himself and make a picture regarding Stannis=AAR, but I don't believe he left it so Jon can see that Lightbringer should be warm not like the sword stannis calls LB. Aemon is like old Nan they just seem to know stuff and make connections others don't. So I believe in Aemons eyes TPTWP is not AAR. Hope I could express what I mean. Thoughts?

[Bawn]

I think that AA and TPtwP are 2 heads of the dragon.  The third being up for grabs.  People would place the last hero here but if the last hero was in fact the last hero then there wouldn't be another last hero. Right?

 

An alternative of mine is that AA is the villain and TPtwP is the hero so to speak.

[Drogonthedread]

We do have three versions of the same prophecy AAR TPTWP TSWMTW making the three heads of the dany the last dragon

The last hero will not be a head mainly because he is not the prophesized one and only a story that told about may be about AA

[Mithras]

I like how forboding their names sound.

Neferion - Nefarious
Eldric Shadowchaser - Eldritch
Yin Tar - Winter?
Azor Ahai - Abhorred?
Hyrkoon - Harpoon? Hercules?

Just a thought.


My thoughts too, except I think the figure was probably not a good one.

 

Eldric and Hyrkoon are obvious homages to the Eternal Champion.

 

I think that AA and TPtwP are 2 heads of the dragon.  The third being up for grabs. 

 

This is why this does not look like a good theory. Plus, there are nearly 5 different mythical heroes equated to AA in the World Book.

 

We do have three versions of the same prophecy AAR TPTWP TSWMTW making the three heads of the dany the last dragon

The last hero will not be a head mainly because he is not the prophesized one and only a story that told about may be about AA

 

Except TSWMTW is not a savior figure. It is quite different than AAR or TPTWP. In addition, the World Book revealed a whole bunch of other myths and savior figures. So, these three figures lost all their privilege of being the only three figures out there.

[Bawn]

 

 

This is why this does not look like a good theory. Plus, there are nearly 5 different mythical heroes equated to AA in the World Book.

 

 

 

I disagree.  We have two people.  AA and TPtwP.  The unknown is the person who brings them together. That person is the third head and he doesn't need to be prophesied.  Or if he was, it would soon be forgotten because it is not that interesting.

We strongly suspect that Jon is TPtwP and we suspect Dany is AA.  The link is (or will be) Tyrion.  When he meets Dany I believe he will be the only person in the known world who knows both Dany and Jon.  He will certainly be the only person who has a friendship with those two.

 

I know it is speculation but I disagree that it does not look like a good theory.  I have read much worse.

[Lost Melnibonean]

 
Is he? Note that he does not mention any specifics about tPtwP here. He only mentions salt/smoke/bleeding star and dragon waking from stone. These are the same things in AAR prophecy if we believe in Mels accounts. We are also sure that Aemon knows the AAR prophecy and Lightbringer.
 
So, it should not take a genius to equate these two prophecies if they have the same elements. That brings us to the question why did not anybody make this connection before?
 
Besides, Rhaegar made a connection between tPtwP and the Song of Ice and Fire which is completely missing in AAR prophecy. Another thing missing in the AAR prophecy is the dragon with three heads. In return, Lightbringer or a similar weapon is missing in tPtwP prophecy.
 
Aemon never addressed these issues. His words look like ravings of an old and dying man who has lost his wits.
 
 
He was talking from Mel's POV.

This is the kind of thing only a handful of people in the world know about. Even learned men like Tyrion and most maesters haven't been exposed to it or if they were paid it much mind.