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Is the Prince that was Promised equal to Azor Ahai Reborn?


Mithras

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Is he? Note that he does not mention any specifics about tPtwP here. He only mentions salt/smoke/bleeding star and dragon waking from stone. These are the same things in AAR prophecy if we believe in Mel’s accounts. We are also sure that Aemon knows the AAR prophecy and Lightbringer.

 

So, it should not take a genius to equate these two prophecies if they have the same elements. That brings us to the question why did not anybody make this connection before?

 

Besides, Rhaegar made a connection between tPtwP and the Song of Ice and Fire which is completely missing in AAR prophecy. Another thing missing in the AAR prophecy is the dragon with three heads. In return, Lightbringer or a similar weapon is missing in tPtwP prophecy.

 

Aemon never addressed these issues. His words look like ravings of an old and dying man who has lost his wits.

 

 

He was talking from Mel's POV.

He is.. He establishes at the start of the paragraph he is talking about a promised prince. It’s not such a leap to think he is talking about THE prince that was promised.

They are the same things as AAR, because both prophecies talk about the same person.

Aemon and Melisandre do make that connection. Both use the prophecies interchangeably.. Because they believe them to be about the same person

 

Rhaegar and song of ice and ifre and dragon of three heads: Note that the fact that both prophecies talk about the same person, does not imply that both prophecies are the exactly the same.. Both could have some unique element, and yet still talk about the same person.

 

from a narrative point of view, it does not make much sense to have two prophecies that talk about two persons, that will be (re)born amist salt and smoke...two bleeding stars,.. and both "heroes" will wake dragons..

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He is.. He establishes at the start of the paragraph he is talking about a promised prince. It’s not such a leap to think he is talking about THE prince that was promised.

They are the same things as AAR, because both prophecies talk about the same person.

Aemon and Melisandre do make that connection. Both use the prophecies interchangeably.. Because they believe them to be about the same person

 

Rhaegar and song of ice and ifre and dragon of three heads: Note that the fact that both prophecies talk about the same person, does not imply that both prophecies are the exactly the same.. Both could have some unique element, and yet still talk about the same person.

 

from a narrative point of view, it does not make much sense to have two prophecies that talk about two persons, that will be (re)born amist salt and smoke...two bleeding stars,.. and both "heroes" will wake dragons..

 

This.  Even disregarding the fact having two prophecies with so many shared elements refer to two distinct people would be downright silly, narratively having two distinct saviors would seem equally strained.  Unless tPtwP and Azor Ahai end up in conflict with each other, which raises its own set of questions.  I mean, really, what would that endgame look like - character A is established as Azor Ahai, starts kicking Other ass, then character B shows up, says 'not bad, but I'm tPtwP, let me show you how it's done!'  ASOIAF as written by Sly Stallone.

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It is curious that both AAR and TPTWP are missing in the World Book. Yandel does not mention them.

 

They are the same things as AAR, because both prophecies talk about the same person.

 

I don't think we have enough information to take that for granted. Equating them is an interpretation done by Mel and believed/confirmed by Aemon. None of them are reliable interpreters. Marwyn becomes immediately suspicious and he does get carried away like Aemon. In fact, he badmouths him.

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This.  Even disregarding the fact having two prophecies with so many shared elements refer to two distinct people would be downright silly, narratively having two distinct saviors would seem equally strained.  Unless tPtwP and Azor Ahai end up in conflict with each other, which raises its own set of questions.  I mean, really, what would that endgame look like - character A is established as Azor Ahai, starts kicking Other ass, then character B shows up, says 'not bad, but I'm tPtwP, let me show you how it's done!'  ASOIAF as written by Sly Stallone.

 

Or;

 

AAR and TPTWP might be two different prophecies for the two most important aspects of savior myths: the hero and the weapon. 

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It is curious that both AAR and TPTWP are missing in the World Book. Yandel does not mention them.

 

 

I don't think we have enough information to take that for granted. Equating them is an interpretation done by Mel and believed/confirmed by Aemon. None of them are reliable interpreters. Marwyn becomes immediately suspicious and he does get carried away like Aemon. In fact, he badmouths him.

Actually I had thought the Aemon considered them different. When he asked about Lightbringer being hot or not he was discussing the AA prophecy. The ptwp seemed to be associated with dragons (he makes the observations that dragons are neither male nor female so the prince need not be a man). I suspect that the AAr prophecy is simply something R'hllor invented to ensure that his adherents would fight the Others when the time came. AAr is simply somebody with power who can be made to fight the Others and all the followers would line up behind him. It could be Stannis for the time being but should he fall or someone stronger arrives (like Dany with her dragons) then she becomes AAr.

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I don't think we have enough information to take that for granted. Equating them is an interpretation done by Mel and believed/confirmed by Aemon. None of them are reliable interpreters. Marwyn becomes immediately suspicious and he does get carried away like Aemon. In fact, he badmouths him.

 

He doesn't badmouth Aemon.  In fact, he explicitly says he needs to go to Meereen in Aemon's place, indicating he agreed with his interpretation (hence Marwyn's 'but still..' after the famous prophecy is a treacherous woman line).

 

 

Or;

 

AAR and TPTWP might be two different prophecies for the two most important aspects of savior myths: the hero and the weapon. 

 

Please clarify.  Think I know what you mean but I don't want to comment on assuming your thoughts.

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He doesn't badmouth Aemon.  In fact, he explicitly says he needs to go to Meereen in Aemon's place, indicating he agreed with his interpretation (hence Marwyn's 'but still..' after the famous prophecy is a treacherous woman line).

During one of the POVs, don't recall which or who said it, but it was stated that the Valyrians used three things to bind dragons: a horn, blood, and spells. I presume Victarion has the horn (given to Euron by none other than R'hllor when he went to Valyria). Blood may be sacrificial or Targ blood or both. But the spells I think are what Marwyn is bringing to Mereen.

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During one of the POVs, don't recall which or who said it, but it was stated that the Valyrians used three things to bind dragons: a horn, blood, and spells. I presume Victarion has the horn (given to Euron by none other than R'hllor when he went to Valyria). Blood may be sacrificial or Targ blood or both. But the spells I think are what Marwyn is bringing to Mereen.

 

Interesting thought, as long as it doesn't get too Harry Potter-y.  Of course, one (wo)man's 'spell' is another's proprietary knowledge, as Mel demonstrates.

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He doesn't badmouth Aemon.  In fact, he explicitly says he needs to go to Meereen in Aemon's place, indicating he agreed with his interpretation (hence Marwyn's 'but still..' after the famous prophecy is a treacherous woman line).

 

Dany’s dragons are still huge assets for whatever purpose he has. That does not mean that he believes Dany is the fulfillment of the prophecies. I am quite sure that he is reserving judgement at least until seeing Dany and her dragons in person.

 

Please clarify.  Think I know what you mean but I don't want to comment on assuming your thoughts.

 

I think there are strong hints that Jon is both Lightbringer and TPTWP. For AAR, I think Dany is a red herring. I have several candidates to assume the role of AAR, which are Davos, Sam and Bran. They will “wield” Jon/Lightbringer for his true purpose. This does not mean that they are superior to Jon or Jon is a simple tool to them. Jon is still the true hero, the one who steps forward and takes the lead. Remember how Sam was the secret mastermind behind Jon’s ascension to the LC office. That is the kind of duty I expect from AAR(s). They will work from the behind and pull some strings to thrust Jon to the front as the leader of men.

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depends on what GRRM is playing with for AA

if it is the eternal champion as seen in Moorcock's Multiverse, it will be a critique/interpretation of what always fighting to restore balance looks like. AA does not need to be "good" here

if it is the hero with a thousand faces, or the monomyth then the scope for playing around becomes much wider - in this case AA can be identified by checking out how much the AA contender's story matches the hero's journey 

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Dany’s dragons are still huge assets for whatever purpose he has. That does not mean that he believes Dany is the fulfillment of the prophecies. I am quite sure that he is reserving judgement at least until seeing Dany and her dragons in person.

 

Fair enough.  Just saying Marwyn never badmouthed Aemon, in fact quite the opposite.  And it's never stated which prophecy he believes Aemon is referring to (just the prophecy), thus why I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

 

 

I think there are strong hints that Jon is both Lightbringer and TPTWP. For AAR, I think Dany is a red herring. I have several candidates to assume the role of AAR, which are Davos, Sam and Bran. They will “wield” Jon/Lightbringer for his true purpose. This does not mean that they are superior to Jon or Jon is a simple tool to them. Jon is still the true hero, the one who steps forward and takes the lead. Remember how Sam was the secret mastermind behind Jon’s ascension to the LC office. That is the kind of duty I expect from AAR(s). They will work from the behind and pull some strings to thrust Jon to the front as the leader of men.

 

Ok, not exactly what I thought, but to each his own.  One question challenging your premise:  If AAR is meant to work behind the scenes, then why is that prophecy ubiquitous throughout Planetos as shown in the World Book as the singular savior?

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Interesting thought, as long as it doesn't get too Harry Potter-y.  Of course, one (wo)man's 'spell' is another's proprietary knowledge, as Mel demonstrates.

It seems to me the the woiaf that spells and knowledge are more or less the same thing. So a spell is the knowledge of how magic works. It isn't, fortunately, chanting some words and waving your arms until a lightning bolt flies forth. Mel and Thoros, for example, both use magic but neither use spells because they don't know how magic works (Thoros is surprised when Dondarrion rises and I suspect Mel was very surprised when Varamyr's eagle exploded though she would never admit it). So Marwyn bringing the spells means that he is bringing the knowledge of how to use the horn and what to do with the dragons and would be riders to make it work.

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I don't think any of them were real, and so they won't be reborn either. Much of what describes these mythical figures is generic themes about personal sacrifice and perseverance in the face of terrible conditions.

 

GRRM has said that the existence of gods in the universe will be left ambiguous, I think it will be the same with the savior figures, some might believe in the story, some might believe Azor Ahai/PTWP is reborned in someone, but we will not get a definitive answer if that person really is a reborn mythical figure or not.

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Ok, not exactly what I thought, but to each his own.  One question challenging your premise:  If AAR is meant to work behind the scenes, then why is that prophecy ubiquitous throughout Planetos as shown in the World Book as the singular savior?

 

What exactly happened during the Long Night is subject to wild speculations. Besides, whatever AA did back in the day should not be necessarily what AAR is supposed to do. In fact, we can be sure that whatever AA did was not the solution, as the balance of the seasons was not restored and a Second Long night is coming.

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It seems to me the the woiaf that spells and knowledge are more or less the same thing. So a spell is the knowledge of how magic works. It isn't, fortunately, chanting some words and waving your arms until a lightning bolt flies forth. Mel and Thoros, for example, both use magic but neither use spells because they don't know how magic works (Thoros is surprised when Dondarrion rises and I suspect Mel was very surprised when Varamyr's eagle exploded though she would never admit it). So Marwyn bringing the spells means that he is bringing the knowledge of how to use the horn and what to do with the dragons and would be riders to make it work.

 

In George world, there are spells but the outcome of the spells might change without any reason understandable to humans as of yet. For example, the pyromancer in the KL confessed that some of their spells which never worked before started working now and he wondered whether there might be a dragon nearby to cause that.

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I think there are strong hints that Jon is both Lightbringer and TPTWP. For AAR, I think Dany is a red herring. I have several candidates to assume the role of AAR, which are Davos, Sam and Bran. They will “wield” Jon/Lightbringer for his true purpose. This does not mean that they are superior to Jon or Jon is a simple tool to them. Jon is still the true hero, the one who steps forward and takes the lead. Remember how Sam was the secret mastermind behind Jon’s ascension to the LC office. That is the kind of duty I expect from AAR(s). They will work from the behind and pull some strings to thrust Jon to the front as the leader of men.

That's interesting. But why Davos, Sam or Bran might be AA? 

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I believe that there all the same Messianic figure but each culture gave him their own features.

 

Seems very likely.

 

It is curious that both AAR and TPTWP are missing in the World Book. Yandel does not mention them.

 

 

I don't think we have enough information to take that for granted. Equating them is an interpretation done by Mel and believed/confirmed by Aemon. None of them are reliable interpreters. Marwyn becomes immediately suspicious and he does get carried away like Aemon. In fact, he badmouths him.

 

True but with the Maester anti magic/prophecy stance it makes sense not to have it in.

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