"He smiled a lot, as if the world were a secret joke that only he was clever enough to understand"

[BlueDragon]

It's Bran who says that Theon "finds everything amusing" and he is another character with his own point of view of the matter. There is no all knowing force in AGOT, it's all character perspectives.

 

Character development happens over the course of the books yes, but a character already needs to have a background and personality based on that background before the books start to make them a good character. That's why I was taught during my lessons on screenwriting that you need to know details about your characters to the point of "what's their favorite color" because their actions need to make sense and their development through out the story needs to make sense.

 

Traumatized is a strong word, but it's hard to believe that someone who knew he might die in the same way was not at all affected by seeing an execution like that happen.

 

 

The point is that Theon knew he might die the same way one day and we know he was very much aware of that since he talks about being scared of the shadow of Ned's longsword. So certainly that's different from someone who sees an execution without that knowledge, certainly that would affect them differently, would you agree?

 

 

what i'm doing here is very far from diagnosing characters with mental illnesses though. it's simple character development. It's one of the most common defense mechanisms, that as I pointed out my best friend uses often and I have used, neither of us are mentally ill for using, I'm convinced that most people will use this defense mechanism at some point.

 

I'm not trying to convince people, I've learned long ago that when people dislike a character they'll continue to do so, but just because others don't think it's nessacary to invest time in a character before judging them, doesn't mean that I can't. or even that I can't find it important. i'd like to point that I'm quite consistant in doing this also with characters that I personally don't like. If I'll judge them, i'll take the time to look at things from their point of view and understand their actions.

 

 

I don't need everyone to forgive him, but I do think it's important to be consistant in judging characters. If you are going to judge a character soley on their actions, and disregard their point of view completely, (which I do consider a wrong way to judge people but if you're consistant in doing this to every other character, I can be ok with it, it's a matter of not being a hypocrite) and that is not what happens, people cherrypick the characters they like and judge them according to the characters point of view and cherrypick the ones they don't like and go "look at it from the perspective of the people they got killed only" The same thing is happening here in my opinion. Lordstoneheart is cherrypicking Theon as a character who doesn't have any depth because he thinks George didn't intend for him to have any depth, while he himself has a reread thread about Catelyn, pointing out her character depth. You can't cherrypick which character has depth according to which character you like.

 

 

my enjoyment comes from analysing the characters I like, so I'd just really like it if I'm allowed to do that without people accusing me of excusing Theon's actions or overcomplicating him or undercomplicating him (all of this has happened LOL)

 

Theon is clearly an important character and Alfie Allen's excellent acting has made him even more important and sympathetic. 

 

All humans are complicated, so posters accusing you of over/under complicating him don't know what they are talking about.

 

And yes, your training is correct: characters must have backgrounds that don't appear in the text in order for a writer to flesh them out well.

 

This is all basic. You shouldn't have to fight for the right to point out basic literary analysis on a site devoted to a piece of literature.

[BlueDragon]

It's Bran who says that Theon "finds everything amusing" and he is another character with his own point of view of the matter. There is no all knowing force in AGOT, it's all character perspectives.

 

Character development happens over the course of the books yes, but a character already needs to have a background and personality based on that background before the books start to make them a good character. That's why I was taught during my lessons on screenwriting that you need to know details about your characters to the point of "what's their favorite color" because their actions need to make sense and their development through out the story needs to make sense.

 

Traumatized is a strong word, but it's hard to believe that someone who knew he might die in the same way was not at all affected by seeing an execution like that happen.

 

 

The point is that Theon knew he might die the same way one day and we know he was very much aware of that since he talks about being scared of the shadow of Ned's longsword. So certainly that's different from someone who sees an execution without that knowledge, certainly that would affect them differently, would you agree?

 

 

what i'm doing here is very far from diagnosing characters with mental illnesses though. it's simple character development. It's one of the most common defense mechanisms, that as I pointed out my best friend uses often and I have used, neither of us are mentally ill for using, I'm convinced that most people will use this defense mechanism at some point.

 

I'm not trying to convince people, I've learned long ago that when people dislike a character they'll continue to do so, but just because others don't think it's nessacary to invest time in a character before judging them, doesn't mean that I can't. or even that I can't find it important. i'd like to point that I'm quite consistant in doing this also with characters that I personally don't like. If I'll judge them, i'll take the time to look at things from their point of view and understand their actions.

 

 

I don't need everyone to forgive him, but I do think it's important to be consistant in judging characters. If you are going to judge a character soley on their actions, and disregard their point of view completely, (which I do consider a wrong way to judge people but if you're consistant in doing this to every other character, I can be ok with it, it's a matter of not being a hypocrite) and that is not what happens, people cherrypick the characters they like and judge them according to the characters point of view and cherrypick the ones they don't like and go "look at it from the perspective of the people they got killed only" The same thing is happening here in my opinion. Lordstoneheart is cherrypicking Theon as a character who doesn't have any depth because he thinks George didn't intend for him to have any depth, while he himself has a reread thread about Catelyn, pointing out her character depth. You can't cherrypick which character has depth according to which character you like.

 

 

my enjoyment comes from analysing the characters I like, so I'd just really like it if I'm allowed to do that without people accusing me of excusing Theon's actions or overcomplicating him or undercomplicating him (all of this has happened LOL)

 

Theon is clearly an important character and Alfie Allen's excellent acting has made him even more important and sympathetic. 

 

All humans are complicated, so posters accusing you of over/under complicating him don't know what they are talking about.

 

And yes, your training is correct: characters must have backgrounds that don't appear in the text in order for a writer to flesh them out well.

 

This is all basic. You shouldn't have to fight for the right to point out basic literary analysis on a site devoted to a piece of literature.

[INCBlackbird]

 

Theon is clearly an important character and Alfie Allen's excellent acting has made him even more important and sympathetic. 

 

All humans are complicated, so posters accusing you of over/under complicating him don't know what they are talking about.

 

And yes, your training is correct: characters must have backgrounds that don't appear in the text in order for a writer to flesh them out well.

 

This is all basic. You shouldn't have to fight for the right to point out basic literary analysis on a site devoted to a piece of literature.

Thank you!!

[Seams]

I am very interested in Theon's identity as a smiler, so I'm glad you brought it up. Can I throw out some ideas I've shared on other threads (and a new one, as well) to see if this thread can sort them out?

 

Theon's beloved, excellent horse is named Smiler. This is a sign that smiling is important to Theon on some level - presumably he chose the name for his horse. Does he know that his smile is integral to his image or identity? Iron men don't really ride or care about horses, so Theon's horse bond must be an outcome of his years in the north. Does this mean he wouldn't be a smiler if he hadn't lived at Winterfell for so many years? I like the idea that his smiling is an expression of his discomfort; that it expresses irony. The horse is set on fire when Ramsay burns Winterfell and takes Theon prisoner. Ramsay is of the north, but he is an anti-Stark. Does the end of Smiler the horse mean that even an ironic smile is no longer possible for Theon? Or does it mean that he no longer has a happy bond with the north?

 

When Stannis is making a plan to marry off the "Wildling Princess," Val, to one of two possibilities among his bannermen, with the intention of creating a loyal warden in the north with legitimate northern blood (via Val), he asks Jon Snow who he would rather have at Winterfell with Val, "the smiler or the slayer"? On the Direwolf re-read thread, people rejected the idea that this was intended to (symbolically) contrast Theon (the smiler) with Sam Tarley (the slayer), but there seemed to be open-mindedness that maybe there is a paired smiler and a slayer in both Jon's and Bran's arcs: Theon and Ramsay in Bran's arc (Julie H. points out that Ramsay is even a kinslayer), and maybe Bowen Marsh (suggested by Harlaw's Book the Sequel) as smiler with Sam as slayer in Jon's arc. What do you think? Are these the only smiler/slayer pairs in the book?

 

Finally, I was fascinated to discover a lot of fool imagery attached to Tyrion on my most recent re-read. Alliser Thorne calls him a fool, and his behavior (take a look at the crab feast he shares with the Night's Watch) also fits some of the patterns GRRM has established for other fools in the books, including the "wise fool" archetype. Is the smiling a hint that Theon is also part of the fool bandwagon? He becomes Ramsay's sidekick and entertainer, similar to some other fools in the books. This might be a stretch, but he also has some other things in common with Tyrion: Theon loses his "manhood" and some other body parts when Ramsay mutilates him; Tyrion is called "the half man." Tyrion and Theon are both sort of disinherited by their fathers. They both have sisters who would like to be rulers.

 

In another, long-ago thread, I found a lot of similarities between Theon and the Unsullied, so maybe that entirely contradicts the importance of the smiling. I do agree that there is a lot of depth to Theon's character that hasn't yet been plumbed. Maybe the smiling will be a key clue to sorting him out.