Voice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I guess I look at it from more of a perspective that Native Americans/Mayans/Incas might. Many pacts made with their enemy from several crossings of several different countries and cultures never turning out quite how they liked, or even honored over time. If they had the power that the CotF have to crush land masses and split continents and so on, they would have used it. As a Native American, let me tell you, there is no such thing as a singular native perspective. And, as someone who has studied Native American history in some depth, let me just say that native populations did indeed have it within their power to exterminate the immigrants, but didn't. Why? We aren't programmed that way. Like FM, we hold the laws of hospitality to be sacred (George borrowed that from us). Rather than make enemies, we'd rather make babies, so that's what we did. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 cotf made a pact with the first men, that the weirwood trees should no longer be cut what is so special about the weirwood trees... sure, they can be used for spying, they keep a sort of record for the green seers, but whats the use of spying if you cannot fight cotf (and weirwood trees) occupied all of westeros when the first men came over, when arm of dorne was broken cotf had retreated to the north, and weirwood groves were cut, when they attempted to split westeros, a much more formidable task compared to an arm. still they managed to swamp up the area, made a pact, and withdrew further north there were once many greenseers, and now there is only one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSmallOther Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 cotf made a pact with the first men, that the weirwood trees should no longer be cut what is so special about the weirwood trees... sure, they can be used for spying, they keep a sort of record for the green seers, but whats the use of spying if you cannot fight cotf (and weirwood trees) occupied all of westeros when the first men came over, when arm of dorne was broken cotf had retreated to the north, and weirwood groves were cut, when they attempted to split westeros, a much more formidable task compared to an arm. still they managed to swamp up the area, made a pact, and withdrew further north there were once many greenseers, and now there is only one Well, imagine you are child of the forest. You believe that souls of greenseers go into weirwood trees. You also believe trees are the gods themselves. When you cut the tree, souls go to abyss and your gods are gone. Not much point left in your own existence. Too bad, so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armstark Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Prince of Ghost, on 27 Jul 2015 - 11:57 AM, said: WP Is THAT where he was going? First I heard it to my memory but then again I can't check. I can't speak for him but that was just something I had thought of myself. A kind of combination of the popular Craster's Sons= White Walkers and JNR's Shadows theory (The Origins of the Others Theory). Craster's sons didn't feature at all in JNR's theory. It was me who proposed the combination of the theories. Which of course is only possible if you go with my interpretation of the sons (= they provide the life-force to form ice-bodies for older souls/spirits/shadows) as opposed to BC's interpretation (= the sons get magically changed into Others, they are the Others). Regarding the whole argument over the pact and whether it was broken or not: I think both sides have merits and we simply can't say for certain because we don't know the specifics of the pact and of the history we are presented with. What I have been wondering lately is why the dragons in Westeros are not featured at all in Westerosi history lessons. We know for a fact that dragons were in Westeros long before the Targaryens and the only legends/stories we got are Serwyn of the mirror shield and Hightower as a dragon lair. Did the dragons play no role at all in the conflicts between FM, Andals and CoF? Or is this another case of Maester censorship as they seem to hate the dragons with a passion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The Dragons were not tamed till the Valyrians came along still does not explain Nettles then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Craster's sons didn't feature at all in JNR's theory. Correct. Veteran heretics know JNR has long argued Craster's sons are merely a curveball thrown by Martin to distract the reader. At this point, though I've argued the other side in the past... I, too, am inclined to think the Craster's Keepers really are red herring. Still thinking through implications of the Other/Shadow theory - but I very much like the connection you made to the House of the Undying, Armstark. Undying shadows gathered 'round a cold heart... seems reminiscent, and worth some follow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular John Umber Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Heretics, I need some help. I've got this thing stuck in my head since I began re-reading 'A Storm of Swords': Can someone tell me why it is impossible for Howland Reed to be Jon Snow's father? I'm a big proponent of questioning the status quo of ASOIAF, and many options have been discussed RE Jon, R+L=J being the main one, but there are dozens of permutations. But no one ever thinks of Howland as a possibility? The reason it gets stuck in my head is that, from Meera's story to Bran, Howland is really the only person we ever 'see' Lyanna interact with, other than Ned (and that's all through the mist of Fever Dreams). The interaction is favourable, they have a bond of sorts. There's also the fact that Howland rode south with Ned to find Lyanna. Why did he do that? It's probably nothing, right? And his wife's name is Jyanna... that's weird, right? Please bear in mind that I haven't thought this all the way through yet, and it's only popped into my head in the last 12 hours or so. I beg you, prove this wrong. I can't have another freaking theory rattling around in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Heretics, I need some help. I've got this thing stuck in my head since I began re-reading 'A Storm of Swords': Can someone tell me why it is impossible for Howland Reed to be Jon Snow's father? I'm a big proponent of questioning the status quo of ASOIAF, and many options have been discussed RE Jon, R+L=J being the main one, but there are dozens of permutations. But no one ever thinks of Howland as a possibility? The reason it gets stuck in my head is that, from Meera's story to Bran, Howland is really the only person we ever 'see' Lyanna interact with, other than Ned (and that's all through the mist of Fever Dreams). The interaction is favourable, they have a bond of sorts. There's also the fact that Howland rode south with Ned to find Lyanna. Why did he do that? It's probably nothing, right? And his wife's name is Jyanna... that's weird, right? Please bear in mind that I haven't thought this all the way through yet, and it's only popped into my head in the last 12 hours or so. I beg you, prove this wrong. I can't have another freaking theory rattling around in my head. Assuming Lyanna is Jon's mother how do you adjust the Timeline? HR was with Ned during the war and a pregnancy last around 9 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 yes it is about the time. Howland Reed arrived at the Tower of Joy at the time Lyanna was delivering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Heretics, I need some help. I've got this thing stuck in my head since I began re-reading 'A Storm of Swords': Can someone tell me why it is impossible for Howland Reed to be Jon Snow's father? I'm a big proponent of questioning the status quo of ASOIAF, and many options have been discussed RE Jon, R+L=J being the main one, but there are dozens of permutations. But no one ever thinks of Howland as a possibility? The reason it gets stuck in my head is that, from Meera's story to Bran, Howland is really the only person we ever 'see' Lyanna interact with, other than Ned (and that's all through the mist of Fever Dreams). The interaction is favourable, they have a bond of sorts. There's also the fact that Howland rode south with Ned to find Lyanna. Why did he do that? It's probably nothing, right? And his wife's name is Jyanna... that's weird, right? Please bear in mind that I haven't thought this all the way through yet, and it's only popped into my head in the last 12 hours or so. I beg you, prove this wrong. I can't have another freaking theory rattling around in my head. I believe Howland Reed is one of the essays that will be part of the alternate fathers/parents Heresy project, although it will run under it's own sub-forum. I'm not quite sure when it will run though. Wolfmaid will have to answer that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I would imagine that the common tongue is akin to English gradually taking over from Welsh and Gaelic. It wouldn't make much sense for regions like the North. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Well, imagine you are child of the forest. You believe that souls of greenseers go into weirwood trees. You also believe trees are the gods themselves. When you cut the tree, souls go to abyss and your gods are gone. Not much point left in your own existence. Too bad, so sad. I was under the impression that anything, the whole world, was the place where the spirits of the dead were stored, that is why thy are the gods of the stones and streams. The weirwoods were just bridges to tap on the power of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I don't think we know it at all, far less with any "certainty". Which was my point. And... I think we've just come full circle. There are tales of collaboration since the Pact, and only tales of war before it. After the Pact, FM adopted the Old Gods, and the order of Green Men was formed. You may distrust them, BC, but we've no reason to believe they are behind the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Heretics, I need some help. I've got this thing stuck in my head since I began re-reading 'A Storm of Swords': Can someone tell me why it is impossible for Howland Reed to be Jon Snow's father? I'm a big proponent of questioning the status quo of ASOIAF, and many options have been discussed RE Jon, R+L=J being the main one, but there are dozens of permutations. But no one ever thinks of Howland as a possibility? The reason it gets stuck in my head is that, from Meera's story to Bran, Howland is really the only person we ever 'see' Lyanna interact with, other than Ned (and that's all through the mist of Fever Dreams). The interaction is favourable, they have a bond of sorts. There's also the fact that Howland rode south with Ned to find Lyanna. Why did he do that? It's probably nothing, right? And his wife's name is Jyanna... that's weird, right? Please bear in mind that I haven't thought this all the way through yet, and it's only popped into my head in the last 12 hours or so. I beg you, prove this wrong. I can't have another freaking theory rattling around in my head. I've suggested Howland many-a-time in past Heresies. He's the only man Lyanna was ever said to have befriended, in canon. Jyana=Lyanna... possible ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 I believe Howland Reed is one of the essays that will be part of the alternate fathers/parents Heresy project, although it will run under it's own sub-forum. I'm not quite sure when it will run though. Wolfmaid will have to answer that. Ned+Wylla and Ned+Ashara are now up at the Last Hearth. The others might be up by now too... :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Which was my point. And... I think we've just come full circle. There are tales of collaboration since the Pact, and only tales of war before it. After the Pact, FM adopted the Old Gods, and the order of Green Men was formed. You may distrust them, BC, but we've no reason to believe they are behind the Others. And my point is that collaboration far less alliance is much too strong. There are occasional stories on non-hostile encounters but they are a long long way from those thousands of years of peace and friendship so blithely mentioned by Maester Luwin. The Green Men [deliberately] are themselves rather too obscure to know what's really going on there. We know that they are still around because GRRM confirmed they have a part to play and I've a shrewd suspicion that this is where Howland Reed is going to come in rather than waving Jon Snow's birth certificate, but we don't really know anything about how they fit in. We hear of spare sons going to the Citadel to become maesters and we hear of spare sons going to the Wall, but we don't get joining the Green Men cited as a career move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 As to where the Children really fit in: The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax. Now, the first point to note is that nowhere in this passage or anywhere else in the synopsis is there any mention of the children of the forest. If Craster's sons are the Neverborn [whether literally or otherwise] and the wights are the undead then who do we have left to fill the slot for the "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others" but those inhuman allies of the Warg King, the half-forgotten children of the forest. Argue against this position by all means, but we do have reason to believe they are the Others referred to in the synopsis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slant Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Howland Reed knows the truth about the green men, and he sent his children to Bran. The last time around, the others came down, but before them came hungry things driven away. If CoTF were with them, it would have played out differently? Also, they were driven back with the help of CoTF. Also, we are going to learn about the lands of always winter, they cant be just more children and weirwoods. but yes, can believe CoTF and Others are related in some way because of Coldhands. Maybe they both use the same kind of magic, as against valyrian/dragon magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 As to where the Children really fit in: The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax. Now, the first point to note is that nowhere in this passage or anywhere else in the synopsis is there any mention of the children of the forest. If Craster's sons are the Neverborn [whether literally or otherwise] and the wights are the undead then who do we have left to fill the slot for the "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others" but those inhuman allies of the Warg King, the half-forgotten children of the forest. Argue against this position by all means, but we do have reason to believe they are the Others referred to in the synopsis Well, that letter accompanied the first 13 chapters of AGOT, which do speak of the children of the forest...quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Well, that letter accompanied the first 13 chapters of AGOT, which do speak of the children of the forest...quite a bit. Only as long gone and half-forgotten. There's no getting away from their not being identified [by that name] in the synopsis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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