R+L=J v.151

[Avalatis]

The Targaryen Westeros was based on Plantagenet England but it looks like the Targaryens didn't read the books on Plantagenet England. And I guess Rhaegar didn't read them either since all he could read in his world was his family history of treason each time a second wife or highborn enough mistress stepped in.

 

There weren't that many "second" wives in the Targaryen dynasty. And nothing in the World Book states Aegon's wives betrayed each other or their heirs.

[wolfmaid7]

Some more Heretic essays on Jon's parentage:
 
http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/107/eddard-wylla-jonby  markg171
 
The essay rests on only six points - Ned doesn't lie, Jon looks like Ned and has dark complexion, my blood = my son, the weirwood vision "as brothers" still applies to half-brothers, Ned doesn't talk about Jon's mother because his family don't ask at a later point.
 
The claim that Ned is too honourable to lie/is a poor liar, completely ignores the fact that Ned believes that some lies are not without honour (Arya lying to protect Nymeria) and that Ned lied of his own volition to protect Cat, claiming that she abducted Tyrion at his order, and was blackmailed to lie about his treason to protect Sansa. In both cases, he lies to protect a loved person and takes the fallout of his lie; in the first case, he lies even to his friend and king. Most importantly, how has Ned been living lies under this scenario?
 
Not going about the whole "Jon looks like Ned not Lyanna" here again but Jon is not dark-skinned. He is darker in comparison with Robb, who has fair complexion (as people with blue eyes and reddish hair tend to), but no character ever comments on him being dark. If he had Dornish tone of skin, Tyrion would hardly fail to mention that when saying that Jon has more of the North in him than his brothers. 
 
"My blood" argument is a failure of logic. A implies B doesn't mean that B implies A. My son is my certainly my blood, but my blood is not necessarily my son, it applies to any other relative, as markg perhaps missed in a quote he posted elsewhere:
 
Brother? Arya did not understand. But youre from Dorne. How could you and Jon be blood? 
Milk brothers. Not blood. My lady mother had no milk when I was little, so Wylla had to nurse me. 
 
The part about half-brothers growing up as brothers might have some  merit, though I'd argue that were that an instance, the use is a bit redundant but the last point is totally off as it ignores Jon's trauma of not knowing his mother's name (as well as Cat's, but here we could argue that having asked once with such a disastrous outcome, she never dared another try). 
 
All in all, the same arguments as before, and seeing them together instead in separate posts makes them even less convincing.
 
 
 
http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/thread/108/eddard-ashara-jonby  wolfmaid7
 
This is not really an essay but a selection of quotes that, as wolfmaid claims, link Ned to Ashara every single time her name turns up.
 
However, the quotes do not explain why e.g. Cat's or Cersei's opinion that Ned and Ashara were an item should be more valid than Harwin's that it was not so, or than Edric Dayne's who claims that Ned loved Ashara but fathered Jon on Wylla. Or why Barristan doesn't name Ned as the man who dishonoured Ashara, or how come that Ned dishonoured himself by getting Ashara pregnant without marrying her, and so on.

Ygrain, um excuse me but I did not write Ashara and Ned I just posted it on behalf of Voice of the First Men.My essay is Robert and Lyanna which hasn't been posted yet.Just for clarification...You got the authors wrong hun.

[Avalatis]

See, I understand the points you and the others have made on here about the WB. I do own it, btw, and use the family trees sometimes to help me get the characters straight- particularly the Targs while I was reading Dunk & Egg.

I don't think it's all hogwash, my understanding was that it was "produced" by GRRM. I understand he contributed, but my impression was that it was written for the most part by Ran and Linda. I get that they communicate with GRRM and his assistant, but they have also said they don't have "insider info" meaning anything spoiler worthy. I was pretty sure I read that on Twitter a month or two ago, which leads me to believe they don't know more than we do- in regards to the direction the story is taking.

I think I just get irritated when people will say it's unreliable, then in the next turn say it proves a point- and just to clarify, I'm not thinking of any individual(s) in particular. Just making a general statement. I haven't read the whole thing, I mostly look at the pictures, but basically, that was my beef.

Again, it's not meant to disrespect anyone; it's just how I perceive some of the arguments re: WB

 

My impression is he spent a lot more time on this than he had originally intended and wrote a good portion of it. The sections he did not write he signed off on. I haven't received the impression this was a indepdent venture with "some" contributions from Martin. They have even gone as far as calling it "canon" as far as that word applies to an unfinished work like ASOIAF.

 

The unreliable narrator is like any character from the books. So Caitlyn in the books thinks Ashara is Jon's mother, unreliable narrator. Robert thinks it's Wylla, unreliable narrator. Some others think she was some random fisherman's daughter, unreliable narrators. Just because we get our information from unreliable narrators doesn't mean we can't use it determine the truth. So in this case the Maester is written as an unreliable narrator as a literary device to not spoil the mysteries of the series, while at the same time giving us what is "commonly" known by the nobility of Westeros.

[UnmaskedLurker]

See, I understand the points you and the others have made on here about the WB. I do own it, btw, and use the family trees sometimes to help me get the characters straight- particularly the Targs while I was reading Dunk & Egg.

I don't think it's all hogwash, my understanding was that it was "produced" by GRRM. I understand he contributed, but my impression was that it was written for the most part by Ran and Linda. I get that they communicate with GRRM and his assistant, but they have also said they don't have "insider info" meaning anything spoiler worthy. I was pretty sure I read that on Twitter a month or two ago, which leads me to believe they don't know more than we do- in regards to the direction the story is taking.

I think I just get irritated when people will say it's unreliable, then in the next turn say it proves a point- and just to clarify, I'm not thinking of any individual(s) in particular. Just making a general statement. I haven't read the whole thing, I mostly look at the pictures, but basically, that was my beef.

Again, it's not meant to disrespect anyone; it's just how I perceive some of the arguments re: WB

Avalatis has basically made the points I would make but I will add a bit to the thinking. Ran and Linda have no spoiler information -- but there is "spoiler" information arguably in WOIAF so they had "spoiler" information prior to its publication -- but now that the book is published they no longer have any inside information (it all got put in the book). 

 

My understanding is that Ran and Linda might have written a lot of the actual words (although GRRM wrote more than I think he originally intended) but very little of the information came from them (although I think they were allowed to make up some of the names). They met with GRRM and got his notes and used that information to write parts of the book. And then GRRM confirmed its accuracy. I believe that each time something seemed "odd" to people on this board and asked Ran if the information really came from GRRM, Ran confirmed in each case that it did. I don't think there is anything in WOIAF that was not read by GRRM and confirmed to be accurate (other than some mistakes that slipped through and that Ran has tried to clarify after the fact at least to the people on this board in the WOIAF subforum). The real issue is what is reliable and what is propaganda (or just unsubstantiated rumors).

 

As to your complaint about people trying to have it both ways, I would need to see the specific example to know if the person was being disingenuous or not. If in context it is clear that the "unreliable" reference was to something that seemed to clearly be pro-Lannister propaganda while the other information relied upon seemed to be information that would have been widely known by many and therefore generally reliable, then the distinction may have been justified. On the other hand, if the person is just arbitrarily picking and choosing based on convenience of the argument at that moment, then a charge of hypocrisy is appropriate. Without more specifics, I cannot make any judgment on the matter.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, no Targaryen king took ever a second wife after Alicent Hightower (Aegon III doesn't count considering that his first marriage only existed on paper and was never consummated). That should tell us something. Aegon the Unworthy had mistresses but not multiple wives. And there were quite a few kings after the Dance could have remarried after the deaths of their wives - Viserys II and Maekar being the most prominent. It is quite striking that neither took a second wife considering how early in their lives they became widowers, and how long they continued to live thereafter.

 

The core of both the succession wars during Maegor's reign as well as the Dance was sons from two queens. We see how devastating this can be in the case of Visenya and Maegor. Visenya was loyal to her siblings, but not to her siblings' children and grandchildren - and she clearly passed on those feelings to Maegor.

 

King Rhaegar I may have been able to keep the peace between his two wives and their factions, children, and grandchildren while he lived, but it is pretty obvious that Westeros would eventually have seen another Dance between the children or grandchildren by Rhaegar from Elia and Lyanna. Especially if Lyanna had given birth to multiple sons. And we have no idea how long Rhaegar would have lived and reigned in any case. The fact that his heir was born by the woman he had put aside in favor Lyanna yet Lyanna was the wife he took for love would have provided great potential for strife at court. A sidelined Elia would possible have raised Aegon very much on her own, demanding that she have her son for herself if she couldn't have her husband. And the affection Rhaegar would have shown Lyanna would have extended to her children by him, causing Elia - and possibly by extension Rhaenys and Aegon - to feel excluded/not so well treated.

 

They could try to prevent the harm through the incest marriages but there would be no guarantee that would work. Marrying Aegon to a daughter by Lyanna would have been a good move since marrying Aegon and Rhaenys to each other would have excluded Lyanna's blood from the (immediate) succession. But marrying Aegon to Daenerys and Lyanna's eldest son to Rhaenys could have enabled that son - or his son - to claim the Iron Throne for himself by 'the right of being the son of King Rhaegar's 'love queen' as well as through the right of his wife, King Rhaegar's eldest child'.

 

As to TWoIaF:

 

The book is canon, and everything in there but the most minor details (some book titles and maester names, the reason why the Tullys were stronger than the Brackens and Blackwoods at the time of the Conquest) comes directly from George. Ran and Linda have written much of it but that's because they had to cut the text down. Much of it may be there words, but it is George's story.

[purple-eyes]

Actually, no Targaryen king took ever a second wife after Alicent Hightower (Aegon III doesn't count considering that his first marriage only existed on paper and was never consummated). That should tell us something. Aegon the Unworthy had mistresses but not multiple wives. And there were quite a few kings after the Dance could have remarried after the deaths of their wives - Viserys II and Maekar being the most prominent. It is quite striking that neither took a second wife considering how early in their lives they became widowers, and how long they continued to live thereafter.

 

The core of both the succession wars during Maegor's reign as well as the Dance was sons from two queens. We see how devastating this can be in the case of Visenya and Maegor. Visenya was loyal to her siblings, but not to her siblings' children and grandchildren - and she clearly passed on those feelings to Maegor.

 

King Rhaegar I may have been able to keep the peace between his two wives and their factions, children, and grandchildren while he lived, but it is pretty obvious that Westeros would eventually have seen another Dance between the children or grandchildren by Rhaegar from Elia and Lyanna. Especially if Lyanna had given birth to multiple sons. And we have no idea how long Rhaegar would have lived and reigned in any case. The fact that his heir was born by the woman he had put aside in favor Lyanna yet Lyanna was the wife he took for love would have provided great potential for strife at court. A sidelined Elia would possible have raised Aegon very much on her own, demanding that she have her son for herself if she couldn't have her husband. And the affection Rhaegar would have shown Lyanna would have extended to her children by him, causing Elia - and possibly by extension Rhaenys and Aegon - to feel excluded/not so well treated.

 

They could try to prevent the harm through the incest marriages but there would be no guarantee that would work. Marrying Aegon to a daughter by Lyanna would have been a good move since marrying Aegon and Rhaenys to each other would have excluded Lyanna's blood from the (immediate) succession. But marrying Aegon to Daenerys and Lyanna's eldest son to Rhaenys could have enabled that son - or his son - to claim the Iron Throne for himself by 'the right of being the son of King Rhaegar's 'love queen' as well as through the right of his wife, King Rhaegar's eldest child'.

 

As to TWoIaF:

 

The book is canon, and everything in there but the most minor details (some book titles and maester names, the reason why the Tullys were stronger than the Brackens and Blackwoods at the time of the Conquest) comes directly from George. Ran and Linda have written much of it but that's because they had to cut the text down. Much of it may be there words, but it is George's story.

 

I thought even Rhaegar survived, Lyanna still would die, right? She died of childbirth complications, which is not related to Rhaegar anyway. 

I am not sure if King Rhaegar will take another wife/mistress after Elia and Lyanna, let us say he is happy with three heads: daughter, Aegon and Jon. 

Jon will be raised by Elia since she liked child and also she is queen. 

Then three children will probably be happy with each other and sometimes they can go to Water Gardens to play together. 

Then Aegon can marry his sister. Jon can marry Dany, his aunt. 

Aegon is the next king. 

Problem solved. 

No rebellion. 

[Avalatis]

 

I thought even Rhaegar survived, Lyanna still would die, right? She died of childbirth complications, which is not related to Rhaegar anyway. 

I am not sure if King Rhaegar will take another wife/mistress after Elia and Lyanna, let us say he is happy with three heads: daughter, Aegon and Jon. 

Jon will be raised by Elia since she liked child and also she is queen. 

Then three children will probably be happy with each other and sometimes they can go to Water Gardens to play together. 

Then Aegon can marry his sister. Jon can marry Dany, his aunt. 

Aegon is the next king. 

Problem solved. 

No rebellion. 

 

This discussion is more about what Rhaegar might have been thinking taking a second wife based on the history of their dynasty. I doubt Rhaegar planned on Lyanna dying. I would argue that Rhaegar felt that such issues were secondary to fulfilling the prophecy and stopping whatever doom that was coming. I would hope he had a plan to deal with the two wives and the political strife of such an arrangement (some suggest that Elia might have been in on it). I wonder if Rhaegar had made a public proclamation that Aegon was first in line of the throne and heir beyond a doubt. Such a decree sent to every corner of the Kingdom might head off any future civil war started by Jon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

I think I have made this point to you before, but in case I have not, I think it worth mentioning. The one aspect of your analysis that you ignore is that most likely Rhaegar believed he needed to have a third child to be the third head of the dragon (a reason Rhaegar also would have thought being married was mandatory as he would want to maximize the chance that the child counted as a dragon). Just as Rhaegar stopped reading so much and started training to be a warrior -- presumably when he thought he was TPTWP -- he is going to train all three children to be warriors to be the three heads of the dragon. Elia would not have the option of raising her two children on her own. Rhaegar needs to raise the three as a team to win the Battle for the Dawn 2.0 (or whatever Rhaegar thought the three heads were destined to do). And if they are raised as a team -- with the weight of the world on their shoulders, preparing to do whatever the three heads are destined to do -- I think the chance of infighting over who would be the next King would be diminished. 

[Anath]

 

This discussion is more about what Rhaegar might have been thinking taking a second wife based on the history of their dynasty. I doubt Rhaegar planned on Lyanna dying. I would argue that Rhaegar felt that such issues were secondary to fulfilling the prophecy and stopping whatever doom that was coming. I would hope he had a plan to deal with the two wives and the political strife of such an arrangement (some suggest that Elia might have been in on it). I wonder if Rhaegar had made a public proclamation that Aegon was first in line of the throne and heir beyond a doubt. Such a decree sent to every corner of the Kingdom might head off any future civil war started by Jon.

That's something I can believe - prophecy being the motivator. I simply cannot take the "Rhaegar needed a second wife for political purposes and it would not create a political storm at all" as a viable explanation. Oh, and I don't believe that any public proclamations could prevent a civil war if Jon/Lyanna wanted to start one. It didn't work for Rhaenyra. But since I believe politics had nothing to do with this action, that's a moot point. Rhaegar couldn't do a thing about it from his grave if his intention was indeed for Aegon to succeed him or even if his intention was to disinherit his children with Elia and start a new brood of dragons with his new nubile wife whom he most certainly did not expect to die.

[purple-eyes]

 

This discussion is more about what Rhaegar might have been thinking taking a second wife based on the history of their dynasty. I doubt Rhaegar planned on Lyanna dying. I would argue that Rhaegar felt that such issues were secondary to fulfilling the prophecy and stopping whatever doom that was coming. I would hope he had a plan to deal with the two wives and the political strife of such an arrangement (some suggest that Elia might have been in on it). I wonder if Rhaegar had made a public proclamation that Aegon was first in line of the throne and heir beyond a doubt. Such a decree sent to every corner of the Kingdom might head off any future civil war started by Jon.

 

Rhaegar is driven by prophecy very heavily.  

I think he did not even think about children of Elia and Lyanna will fight each other, especially since he thought Aegon is the promised prince. 

He probably just thought three children will team up and fight the doom of Westeros. 

I also doubt that he formally married Lyanna since he is a married man and there was no polygamy for several centuries already. 

Even his king dad swore to be faithful to his wife and never thought about marrying another queen although he hated his sister-wife a lot. 

 

But come back to your topic, if King Rhaegar had two wives and three children, everything will be probably fine. 

Aegon is older so he is by right the heir. he had the support of Dorne. Jon is supported by Ned (brandon and Rickard dead already) and Ned is an honorable man so there is no rebellion.  

three children plus Dany still will make two good matches. Of course Viserys will be upset but he is pretty far from the throne so he ended up to marry Arianne of Dorne. Arianne will have a lot of good ways to deal with him so he is going to be just fine. 

[Alia of the knife]

The Targaryen Westeros was based on Plantagenet England but it looks like the Targaryens didn't read the books on Plantagenet England. And I guess Rhaegar didn't read them either since all he could read in his world was his family history of treason each time a second wife or highborn enough mistress stepped in.

 

Not too reassuring for the chances of Westeros of peaceful future under his sons by two wives, with him falling back to a well abandoned custom to gain a second wife and breaking the vows he made when he married his first one. The Seven do not accept polygamy. And no, the incest as something to explain just how acceptable Rhaegar's actions were doesn't wash it me. The last king who practiced polygamy also practiced killing his wives off. Rhaegar dispensing of his barren useless wife this way (which also had precedent) wouldn't have been acceptable, I think, but given what I read in this thread, perhaps I am in the wrong. Perhaps Elia and Dorne should have been reduced to tears out of gratitude that he didn't order her killed.

 

Your Selmy the Mindreader couldn't even find a single unflattering trait of Elia's to give to Dany as an excuse as to why Rhaegar slighted her. Yeah, he knew her all right. Because Elia was a paragon of virtue. No flaws to her!

 

To me, that simply spells that he didn't know her. How could he? She lived away from court. Anyway, I don't agree at all that he was a fan of hers. He simply pitied her.

 

Once again: I do not say that Rhaegar did not love Lyanna. No need to prove that he did. Although I wonder why you posted the conflicting heart quote as if it contradicts what I am saying. If anything, my views of a relationship not based on love but other things as possibly harsh and painful aligns more with the hearts in conflict things than the idea of a serene relationship based on nothing but sweet trust which is only disturbed by the arrival of the amazing nubile warrior girl - a lucky occasion since he needed a second wife anyway. Where's the conflict here? It's perfectly logical.

 

 

:dunno:

[Sly Wren]

See, I understand the points you and the others have made on here about the WB. I do own it, btw, and use the family trees sometimes to help me get the characters straight- particularly the Targs while I was reading Dunk & Egg.

I don't think it's all hogwash, my understanding was that it was "produced" by GRRM. I understand he contributed, but my impression was that it was written for the most part by Ran and Linda. I get that they communicate with GRRM and his assistant, but they have also said they don't have "insider info" meaning anything spoiler worthy. I was pretty sure I read that on Twitter a month or two ago, which leads me to believe they don't know more than we do- in regards to the direction the story is taking.

I think I just get irritated when people will say it's unreliable, then in the next turn say it proves a point- and just to clarify, I'm not thinking of any individual(s) in particular. Just making a general statement. I haven't read the whole thing, I mostly look at the pictures, but basically, that was my beef.

Again, it's not meant to disrespect anyone; it's just how I perceive some of the arguments re: WB

Have the same understanding re: "production."

 

But still think that with the WB's being in POV, Martin has plenty of room to wiggle things as he chooses. 

 

And I agree on the bolded--but can't see how it's much different from what we all do with the books. We all find certain aspects of the books, or POVs, or scenes, or dreams, or prophesies, or just words--we all find certain aspects of these things more reliable than others. And more or less reliable than how other people interpret them.

 

Just not sure if there's a way out. We're all going to give different amounts of weight to things. IE: some like the app. Some don't. So, we're always going to be dealing with this, whether we want to include the WB or not. And can't see how to keep the WB out of conversations even if anyone wanted to. It's a book on the book forums. Seems inevitable.

[Sly Wren]

That's something I can believe - prophecy being the motivator. I simply cannot take the "Rhaegar needed a second wife for political purposes and it would not create a political storm at all" as a viable explanation. Oh, and I don't believe that any public proclamations could prevent a civil war if Jon/Lyanna wanted to start one. It didn't work for Rhaenyra. But since I believe politics had nothing to do with this action, that's a moot point. Rhaegar couldn't do a thing about it from his grave if his intention was indeed for Aegon to succeed him or even if his intention was to disinherit his children with Elia and start a new brood of dragons with his new nubile wife whom he most certainly did not expect to die.

Agree re: the politics. If Rhaegar had read half of what he's supposed to have done, really think he should have noticed the messes his family had made politically. 

 

As for the prophecy--maybe. We don't know for sure he meant another child in the House of the Undying and don't know that's why he took Lyanna. Hinted? Sure. Known? No.

 

But what stuns me regardless is how he might have thought he could make this work without getting Lyanna's family involved. He had to have noticed everyone's reactions when he gave that wreath. What did he think would happen if he disappeared with her? If he did marry her (no independent evidence that he did, but speculating that he did), why on earth would he think that would make things any better for anyone? Did he really think the Martells would be cool with this? Even if he had managed to convince everyone of the prophecy?

 

That's a LOT of convincing, especially since the realm was already tense. And especially since he was already probably planning to try making some changes in the monarchy. Multi-tasking has it's place, but this just seems impossible per se. The whole "plan" seems insane, prophecy or no prophecy. Don't know what he was thinking.

[purple-eyes]

Agree re: the politics. If Rhaegar had read half of what he's supposed to have done, really think he should have noticed the messes his family had made politically. 

 

As for the prophecy--maybe. We don't know for sure he meant another child in the House of the Undying and don't know that's why he took Lyanna. Hinted? Sure. Known? No.

 

But what stuns me regardless is how he might have thought he could make this work without getting Lyanna's family involved. He had to have noticed everyone's reactions when he gave that wreath. What did he think would happen if he disappeared with her? If he did marry her (no independent evidence that he did, but speculating that he did), why on earth would he think that would make things any better for anyone? Did he really think the Martells would be cool with this? Even if he had managed to convince everyone of the prophecy?

 

That's a LOT of convincing, especially since the realm was already tense. And especially since he was already probably planning to try making some changes in the monarchy. Multi-tasking has it's place, but this just seems impossible per se. The whole "plan" seems insane, prophecy or no prophecy. Don't know what he was thinking.

 

Come on, silver dragon prince just wants to have a nice vacation with his beloved sweet girl. 

The whole world took it too seriously and everybody in Westeros except the people in TOJ should be blamed for the war. 

 

Ok, I am kidding. 

Seriously, I think Rhaegar just a mad guy stuck in prophecy (doom of the Westeros) and his desire in Lyanna. 

He did not think too much about the near future (Dorne's wrath, Stark's wrath, Elia got killed by Lyanna or Lyanna got killed by Elia, another dance of the dragons, etc. ). 

[Mother of Dragons]

Have the same understanding re: "production."
 
But still think that with the WB's being in POV, Martin has plenty of room to wiggle things as he chooses. 
 
And I agree on the bolded--but can't see how it's much different from what we all do with the books. We all find certain aspects of the books, or POVs, or scenes, or dreams, or prophesies, or just words--we all find certain aspects of these things more reliable than others. And more or less reliable than how other people interpret them.
 
Just not sure if there's a way out. We're all going to give different amounts of weight to things. IE: some like the app. Some don't. So, we're always going to be dealing with this, whether we want to include the WB or not. And can't see how to keep the WB out of conversations even if anyone wanted to. It's a book on the book forums. Seems inevitable.

I don't think people need to keep WB out of conversations, but yes, you're right, and the others too, re: unreliable narrators/POVs from the main series.

[Mother of Dragons]

Avalatis has basically made the points I would make but I will add a bit to the thinking. Ran and Linda have no spoiler information -- but there is "spoiler" information arguably in WOIAF so they had "spoiler" information prior to its publication -- but now that the book is published they no longer have any inside information (it all got put in the book). 
 
My understanding is that Ran and Linda might have written a lot of the actual words (although GRRM wrote more than I think he originally intended) but very little of the information came from them (although I think they were allowed to make up some of the names). They met with GRRM and got his notes and used that information to write parts of the book. And then GRRM confirmed its accuracy. I believe that each time something seemed "odd" to people on this board and asked Ran if the information really came from GRRM, Ran confirmed in each case that it did. I don't think there is anything in WOIAF that was not read by GRRM and confirmed to be accurate (other than some mistakes that slipped through and that Ran has tried to clarify after the fact at least to the people on this board in the WOIAF subforum). The real issue is what is reliable and what is propaganda (or just unsubstantiated rumors).
 
As to your complaint about people trying to have it both ways, I would need to see the specific example to know if the person was being disingenuous or not. If in context it is clear that the "unreliable" reference was to something that seemed to clearly be pro-Lannister propaganda while the other information relied upon seemed to be information that would have been widely known by many and therefore generally reliable, then the distinction may have been justified. On the other hand, if the person is just arbitrarily picking and choosing based on convenience of the argument at that moment, then a charge of hypocrisy is appropriate. Without more specifics, I cannot make any judgment on the matter.

Thanks for explaining that, I didn't have a specific person in mind, I was thinking of the WB mainly because we were debating the app last night.

[J. Stargaryen]

Regarding the World book, I believe that the vast majority of info came from GRRM, which Elio and Linda would revise and rewrite as Yandel.

 

Regarding Rhaegar and politics, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he was at least using politics to help him fulfill his prophecy related goals. Just thinking out loud here, but maybe he kidnapped Lyanna in order to put political pressure on his father. Because if Rheagar takes Lyanna and goes into hiding, the southron ambitions alliance lords can't take the issue up with him. They have to take it up with his father, if anyone. And if that's the case, then Aerys might be forced to ask Rhaegar for help in dealing with these lords. Or at least, it might give father and son common cause.

 

Now, I suspect that someone, Lord Varys perhaps, might argue that Rhaegar was taking an awfully big chance, since Aerys could have just sided with the rebels and disinherited Rhaegar. And it's true that such a possibility existed. However, based on the way things played out, I'd say that, as little as Aerys trusted Rhaegar, he trusted the Starks et al. even less. Could Rhaegar have known or predicted this? It's hard to say, but the idea makes some sense.

[Sly Wren]

Regarding Rhaegar and politics, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he was at least using politics to help him fulfill his prophecy related goals. Just thinking out loud here, but maybe he kidnapped Lyanna in order to put political pressure on his father. Because if Rheagar takes Lyanna and goes into hiding, the southron ambitions alliance lords can't take the issue up with him. They have to take it up with his father, if anyone. And if that's the case, then Aerys might be forced to ask Rhaegar for help in dealing with these lords. Or at least, it might give father and son common cause.

 

Now, I suspect that someone, Lord Varys perhaps, might argue that Rhaegar was taking an awfully big chance, since Aerys could have just sided with the rebels and disinherited Rhaegar. And it's true that such a possibility existed. However, based on the way things played out, I'd say that, as little as Aerys trusted Rhaegar, he trusted the Starks et al. even less. Could Rhaegar have known or predicted this? It's hard to say, but the idea makes some sense.

Given how difficult the situation seemed to be getting, provoking Aerys would be a REALLY risky move. Granted, Aerys undermined Rhaegar's ability to negotiate at Harrenhal. But I would think that would make Rhaegar (in this hypothetical scenario about fictional characters) less likely to poke the bear. 

 

I agree that Rhaegar would have been wise to look for leverage against his father. But he's just seen Aerys freak out about the Knight of the Laughing Tree and his paranoia about the Lannisters. Provoking his father AND the North and the Stormlands by taking Lyanna--seems like it would be much more likely to backfire than work (in this completely hypothetical argument about fictional characters).

 

Trying to figure out why Rhaegar did all this always makes me throw up my hands. Nothing in the books suggests anyone thinks he didn't take Lyanna (conditions to be determined). Which makes it easier to accept that it happened. How and why? Urgh.

 

The biggest problem for me is trying to make Rhaegar and/or Lyanna look "good" and fit the little bits of info we have on them. But seems like I have to at least put on the table one of the basic facts of Martinlandia--even really good and clever people do really stupid things out of their characters. And even good people make very bad mistakes. That may be the best I can do.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thanks for explaining that, I didn't have a specific person in mind, I was thinking of the WB mainly because we were debating the app last night.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong (I don't have the app), but my understanding is that the app is different than the book (which I have), and that while the book is canon -- the app is not canon (I think Ran refers to the app as semi-canon). Even though Ran and Linda are involved in both projects, my understanding is that they are different items and the app is not entirely canon, but the book is. If I am mistaken, someone here will correct me I assume.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Given how difficult the situation seemed to be getting, provoking Aerys would be a REALLY risky move. Granted, Aerys undermined Rhaegar's ability to negotiate at Harrenhal. But I would think that would make Rhaegar (in this hypothetical scenario about fictional characters) less likely to poke the bear. 

 

I agree that Rhaegar would have been wise to look for leverage against his father. But he's just seen Aerys freak out about the Knight of the Laughing Tree and his paranoia about the Lannisters. Provoking his father AND the North and the Stormlands by taking Lyanna--seems like it would be much more likely to backfire than work (in this completely hypothetical argument about fictional characters).

 

Trying to figure out why Rhaegar did all this always makes me throw up my hands. Nothing in the books suggests anyone thinks he didn't take Lyanna (conditions to be determined). Which makes it easier to accept that it happened. How and why? Urgh.

 

The biggest problem for me is trying to make Rhaegar and/or Lyanna look "good" and fit the little bits of info we have on them. But seems like I have to at least put on the table one of the basic facts of Martinlandia--even really good and clever people do really stupid things out of their characters. And even good people make very bad mistakes. That may be the best I can do.

Remember -- the dragon must have three heads. I think that statement from Rhaegar is a huge clue on why he ran off with Lyanna, why he has a child with her and likely why they got married. Rhaegar thought he needed to save the world -- having a third child was necessary to save the world -- the dragon must have three heads. It is irrelevant whether this view makes sense (we know he was wrong in many aspects of his understanding of who would be the three heads), but his actions are easier to understand once we keep in mind that he apparently thought that his three children would be the prophecized three heads of the dragon and Elia could not have a third child.