R+L=J v.151

[TheSmallOther]

What is he doing to save the world? I believe he is trying to be sure that his children are the three heads of the dragon, train them to be warriors and leaders and war generals, and then wait for the moment to come when their prophecized duty comes into play. Of course, Rhaegar was wrong about Aegon and Rhaenys being heads of the dragon and he died before ever getting this plan under way. But I think the evidence is incredibly strong that this is what Rhaegar believed and this is what Rhaegar was trying to accomplish.

 

At a minimum, even if someone does not find this evidence as compelling as I do, any discussion of why Rhaegar went off with Lyanna and had a child with her needs to consider this scenario as a distinct possibility regarding what Rhaegar was trying to do. Simply ignoring this possibility is ignoring strong evidence right in the text.

 

The question is: if children are heads of the dragon, does he really need "ice head"? I.e., what is the reason to have Lyanna instead of any other girl? Aerys wanted girl with Valyrian roots for a reason. Yea, I know, usual claim is "we need balance between ice and fire" (whatever that means). But dragon itself is far from being in balance. He IS fire.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys were 'a team', too. They conquered Westeros together, remember, and Visenya even saved Aegon from assassins on a number of occasions (once with her own hands, and then countless other times by founding the KG and choosing the right members for it). Yet that didn't prevent Visenya from murdering Aenys I, Aegon's son by Rhaenys, her own nephew and stepson, and neither did it prevent Maegor from murdering two of Aegon's grandsons.

 

I conceded that King Rhaegar may have been able to keep things quiet and peaceful - just as there was no Dance while Viserys I was still alive - but there is really no reason to believe that lots of Targaryen children from different wifes don't lead to trouble in the long run.

 

Elia stuff:

 

The very idea that Barristan Selmy has no idea about the true feelings of a member of the royal family is ridiculous. We should not even have to discuss this. The man lived alongside Prince Rhaegar until the man moved to Dragonstone, and continued to do so after his return from the tower. There is no reason to believe Rhaegar would pretend to not loving Elia (i.e. behave in a way that a man like Barristan would conclude he was only fond of her) while he actually does. Why the hell should he do that? Not to mention that it would be rather difficult to pull that off if Rhaegar was actually in love with his wife. Barristan knows what he knows, and he knows that he wasn't privy to certain things, but that is another chapter. You don't involve a Kingsguard in a plot against the king unless you know for a certainty that he is on your side in the matter.

 

Not to mention that we don't have any indication that Rhaegar did love Elia. There is no textual evidence supporting this ides - instead, we have Barristan saying that this was not the case. Why would anyone want to believe that Rhaegar loved Elia? Just because they were married to each other? Please, then we can also believe Stannis and Selyse love each other, or that Jon Arryn and Lysa loved each other. Or that Joyeuse Erenford actually loves Walder Frey.

 

As to prophecy stuff:

 

Nothing suggests that the Targaryen version of the prophecy specifies anything about the fate or purpose of the promised prince. We don't even know whether Rhaegar's idea that he had to be a warrior once he was told/concluded that he was the promised prince is correct. The Azor Ahai version is similar. The Red Priests (Melisandre, Benerro) only search for him, but don't have a very special vision what his destiny is or against whom he has to fight or from what exactly he has to save humanity from. Else Melisandre would have been the one suggesting to Stannis to go to the Wall rather than conquer Westeros, and Benerro would prepare his followers to go to Westeros rather than promise them rewards and rebirth if they fought and died in Dany's name and/or service. Not to mention that Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, and Rhaegar would have done everything in their power to help and strengthen the Night's Watch if they had had any idea that the promised prince's destiny - who was either already born or expected to be born soon - was in any way connected to the Others or the Wall.

[corbon]

The very idea that Barristan Selmy has no idea about the true feelings of a member of the royal family is ridiculous. We should not even have to discuss this. The man lived alongside Prince Rhaegar until the man moved to Dragonstone, and continued to do so after his return from the tower. There is no reason to believe Rhaegar would pretend to not loving Elia (i.e. behave in a way that a man like Barristan would conclude he was only fond of her) while he actually does. Why the hell should he do that? Not to mention that it would be rather difficult to pull that off if Rhaegar was actually in love with his wife. Barristan knows what he knows, and he knows that he wasn't privy to certain things, but that is another chapter. You don't involve a Kingsguard in a plot against the king unless you know for a certainty that he is on your side in the matter.

 

Indeed. But Barristan's data does not fit the desired outcome so it has been decided that he has no relevant information gained from all that time in close proximity with Rhaegar. Or the time spent in very close proximity working together after Rhaegar came back from ToJ. Because he is not Rhaegar's best buddy, in the inner circle, privy to everything, he has noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  (apparently the number of o's is important) information about Rhaegar at all.
Thou shalt not question this dogma for it is necessary so that certain conclusions can be reached. But at the same time one must be loudly open-minded about everything (else), even the most ridiculously implausible possibilities.

[Ygrain]

 

Indeed. But Barristan's data does not fit the desired outcome so it has been decided that he has no relevant information gained from all that time in close proximity with Rhaegar. Or the time spent in very close proximity working together after Rhaegar came back from ToJ. Because he is not Rhaegar's best buddy, in the inner circle, privy to everything, he has noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  (apparently the number of o's is important) information about Rhaegar at all.
Thou shalt not question this dogma for it is necessary so that certain conclusions can be reached. But at the same time one must be loudly open-minded about everything (else), even the most ridiculously implausible possibilities.

There are times when I miss the old Like button.

 

Ygrian those are "all" Voice of the First men's words if you had read the thread dear you would have seen "him" arguing the case.If you had read the thread and i don't think you did you would have seen me thanking "him" for writing the piece when he was not slated to in such a short time.

 

No divination required...Observation and reading things in context and its entirety. 

Come on. Dear. How about, instead of snarking to cover your ass, you edited your post to state that you are posting the quotes on Voice's behalf and that there is no essay that was promised but that the "author" defends his position in the thread? Requiring others to do this and that when you're the one not doing your job properly is really classy.

[purple-eyes]

Why we are discussing if rhaegar loved Elia?
Apparently whatever love he had for Elia and their children, it is not big enough to stop him from running off with Lyanna. He only remembered Lyanna even at his death. So Elia and his children were not really important for him.
Sometimes I am wondering why he dare to blame jiame for death of elia and the children. How can jiame protect mad king and queen and viserys and elia and children at the same time? It is rhaegar made 3 KG to guard lyanna. It will be better just save one for elia and her children and also his own mom and brother.
Of course this may be just Jiame's self-blame in his dream.

[Regular John Umber]

Why we are discussing if rhaegar loved Elia?

It speaks to his motives, and as to what was really going on with Lyanna.

Apparently whatever love he had for Elia and their children, it is not big enough to stop him from running off with Lyanna.

We don't know that. We don't know the nature of his 'running off with' actions.

He only remembered Lyanna even at his death.

We don't know that.

So Elia and his children were not really important for him.

We don't know that.

Sometimes I am wondering why he dare to blame jiame for death of elia and the children.

When did he do that?

It is rhaegar made 3 KG to guard lyanna.

We don't know that.

Of course this may be just Jiame's self-blame in his dream.

Exactly, it's a dream. I think it's important to remember that dreams and visions are not guaranteed to be the truth. As we know from Bran, visions and dreams can be 'sent' to the intended. And if they can be sent, can they be tailored? Can they be manipulated?

[BearQueen87]

Why we are discussing if rhaegar loved Elia?
Apparently whatever love he had for Elia and their children, it is not big enough to stop him from running off with Lyanna. He only remembered Lyanna even at his death. So Elia and his children were not really important for him.
 

 

We don't know that at all, is the problem. I actually think he happened to care for his children, had no plans to disinherit Aegon, and cared for Elia as a friend and partner.

[purple-eyes]

We don't know that at all, is the problem. I actually think he happened to care for his children, had no plans to disinherit Aegon, and cared for Elia as a friend and partner.

Yeah We do not know his motivation. But we know what he had done.
If he truly cared for his wife and children, whatever his motivation is(politics, love or prophecy), he did stupid things and hurt his family. Look at how cat felt hurt by Ned about Jon, even we know Ned did it for noble reason.
But of course, at least rhaegar did not try to kill Elia immediately after the birth of Aegon to make room for Lyanna, so we can safely assume rhaegar indeed cared for her.

[BearQueen87]

Yeah We do not know his motivation. But we know what he had done.
If he truly cared for his wife and children, whatever his motivation is(politics, love or prophecy), he did stupid things and hurt his family. Look at how cat felt hurt by Ned about Jon, even we know Ned did it for noble reason.
 

 

Sure, but it's worth remembering that those "stupid" things and the hurt inflicted on his family are in hindsight. Rhaegar did not set out , IMO, to do anything stupid or to hurt his family (and certainly not to have his family killed). He certainly wasn't planning for things to fall out the way they did and it is stated in a Jaime POV that Rhaegar had some plan that went awry for reasons. We don't know what Rhaegar's plan was and Elia has been an almost totally silent character through 5 books, meaning we don't know how she felt about the entire Rhaegar and Lyanna situation. Even when her brother comes to KL we hear very little about Elia's feelings toward her husband and the woman he ran off with. Do I think she was overjoyed by the prospect of Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love and marrying and having children? Nope, certainly not. As Alia will remind us, she has her family and family politics to think about. But do I think that there might have been a conversation between R and Elia either about prophecy or R's plan or Lyanna? Yes.

[purple-eyes]

Sure, but it's worth remembering that those "stupid" things and the hurt inflicted on his family are in hindsight. Rhaegar did not set out , IMO, to do anything stupid or to hurt his family (and certainly not to have his family killed). He certainly wasn't planning for things to fall out the way they did and it is stated in a Jaime POV that Rhaegar had some plan that went awry for reasons. We don't know what Rhaegar's plan was and Elia has been an almost totally silent character through 5 books, meaning we don't know how she felt about the entire Rhaegar and Lyanna situation. Even when her brother comes to KL we hear very little about Elia's feelings toward her husband and the woman he ran off with. Do I think she was overjoyed by the prospect of Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love and marrying and having children? Nope, certainly not. As Alia will remind us, she has her family and family politics to think about. But do I think that there might have been a conversation between R and Elia either about prophecy or R's plan or Lyanna? Yes.

He had to know his behavior can possibly cause a civil war and he had to know nobody can be 100% sure to win a war. Otherwise he is either stupid or very proud to think himself as a superman.
Even Elia is very happy with her husband loving another woman and having child with her, I still can not see a good reason for Rhaegar to run off. Unless his prophecy clearly told him he had to run off and have a child in TOJ to fulfill the prophecy. Before GRRM can give us a wonderful explanation for these whole thing other than hot love and rhaegar's madness, I will say rhaegar is stupid and mad and irresponsible for his family.

[Stargaryen81]

Jon Snow has a twin!

 

I threw this out there is R+L=J v.149.  It caught a little traction but some how got skewed off track.  I have had a crackpot theory regarding the death of Lyanna Stark and she being Jon's mother.  The battle at Tower of Joy happens and Ned finds Lyanna afterwards dying.  Not because of giving birth to Jon, but because she gave birth to TWINS, Jon and another. 

 

Now here is where the theory takes a little twist and could sound more crackpot-ish.  Lyanna having twins would help explain why she died from the birth.  No other record of births of first children in ASoIaF that killed the mother.  However, one instance of twins, Cersei and Jamie.  It took Joanna 9 years to have Tyrion and she died from that birth.  It could be having twins has a very detrimental effect on the female body in The Known World. 

 

So Lyanna has twins.  Ned makes her the promise but notices that one of the baby's has Northern features (Lyanna's DNA, darker features) while the other baby has Valyrian features (Rhaegar's DNA, lighter features).  Ned could not take the valyrian styled baby back north because Robert would have questions and may kill Ned's nephew.  So he gave the baby to Ashara Dayne.  He was heading that way to give the Dayne's their ancestoral sword anyways.  The Dayne's carry valyrian features. 

 

It is believed at this point that Ashara has birthed and lost a baby.  Her excuse for committing suicide.  Instead my theory is Ned gave Ashara Jon's twin to heal the pain of losing her first child and also knowing Robert would eventually find out so Ashara "committed suicide" and ran off to Essos with Jon's twin.  She would eventually find Varys and Illyrio. 

 

These two help raise this child and make plans to one day put him on the Iron Throne, BOOM fAegon w/ JonCon is not Rhaegar's oldest son, that baby was killed during the Sack of KL.  Instead it is Rhaegar's youngest son, and twin of Jon Snow, carrying the same name Aegon.  This would help explain the theory of the septa with fAegon being Ashara Dayne. 

 

If you think about it it does help explain many theories if said theories come true.  Also, this story would be easy for Varys to spin and Ashara, Illyrio, and Varys could easily teach the boy his wrong age.  That would be easy.  They hide fAegon's valyrian features and he tends to have the same qualities of Jon, at least in bravery but also a short temper when being mocked. 

 

I like it because for the longest time everyone was R+L=J but never once has anyone mentioned the possibility of twins.  It puts a fantastic twist on a theory that everyone thought was a given. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

Agree that the visions provide a possible motive.

 

But there are at least a few problems with taking the visions as reality. They're visions, for one (apologies for obviousness). Dany sees them under the influence of something. The Undying had their own motives.

 

And then the vision itself--Rhaegar turns as if to look at Dany--why? Is this a realistic part or something else? And he never says he needs a third child. Can be implied from the text, but he also looks at Dany. The idea that one of R's siblings might do (in his mind) has to be on the table.

 

Then we don't know why "three heads." Is this part of the prophecy? Assume so, but not spelled out.

 

Finally, he seems happy in the vision with Elia. For all the talk of not loving, Dany sees it as a family (maybe it's the hallucinogens, but still). So, they decided together to get another kid? He decided on his own? Somehow managed to talk Lyanna into this? Decided to take her and damn the consequences? All of that seems out of line with what we've learned about Rhaegar and Lyanna. 

 

There's a BIG gap in the text re: how "taken" and why. And we only have glimpses at their personalities. So, is there space for Rhaegar to do something really crazy? Sure. But also seems like current info undermines the possibilities a bit. We do know they disappeared. No one in text denies that. How and why? Still makes me throw my hands up.

Of course we have to fill in some blanks -- that is what GRRM does -- he gives us part of the story and we need to use our logical reasoning ability to try to fill in the rest (play Sherlock Holmes). Sometimes we get it right and sometimes wrong. But that does not mean there are "holes" in a particular theory -- just that alternative theories might also be plausible. I think that is an important distinction. 

 

Now directly to your points. I highly doubt that the vision has been given to the readers as a "trick" to mislead us about what Rhaegar was thinking or doing. Based on the context and content of the statements made in the vision, I think it is reasonable to conclude that we were seeing basically what actually happened at that time. The only obvious "trick" about the vision is when Rhaegar appears to look at Dany. I believe that the reason for this "trick" is obvious -- that statement by Rhaegar was the part that was meant to be a message to Dany -- and she got it and understood. Note that Rhaegar says "there must be one more" but Dany understands how that statement applies to her -- to her there must be "two more" because she is one of the heads and she understand she needs to find the other two -- not one more as Rhaegar actually said (because he was talking about his understanding at that time and not actually talking to Dany -- but she got what it meant for her).

 

As to whether Rhaegar believed his three children would be the three heads -- I think in context there is no other reasonable conclusion. He just states that Aegon is TPTWP. We know he has two children at that point. We know he says that the dragon must have three heads. If he thought that he or Viserys could be the third head, he would not say there must be one more -- all three heads would already be identified. There must be one more means either that he does not know who the third head is but needs to find him or her (seems unlikely as he knows who all the living Targs are) or that he is saying he needs to have one more child to be the third head. That latter interpretation is by far the most likely. And in working through theories, we need to go with something or we never form any conclusions at all and then what is the point of debating these issues. I would rather use the most reasonable interpretations of the clues to form conclusions and possibly be wrong than just sit around and keep saying that we cannot be sure and we just have to wait. GRRM generally will not give us better clues until the big reveal -- so we have to go with what we have. Sometime we just don't have enough to form a reasonable conclusion -- but here we have enough (even if we still might be wrong).

 

We know that Rhaegar and Aemon both indicate that the dragon must have three heads. While they might not be very good at figuring out who is TPTWP or who are the three heads, they are leading experts on the actual contents of the prophecy. Even if they don't  know what it really means, they know what it says -- so if they say the dragon has three heads, they must be getting this from the prophecy. So I think in terms of forming conclusions, we can be fairly comfortable with the conclusion that the prophecy includes a statement that the dragon has three heads. It is up to the readers to interpret the true meaning -- the characters won't do that until the "big reveal" but we have enough clues to try to make a reasoned conclusion (admitting, of course, as with all of these theories, that we might be wrong).

 

As to whether Rhaegar is happy in the vision --  yes, I think he is. He just saw the birth of TPTWP. The prophecy that he feels responsible to ensure gets fulfilled is in the process of being fulfilled (in his view), and I think he loves his children (and at a minimum is fond of Elia and perhaps loves her on some level even if not "in love" with her). At that moment, Elia probably has not yet been told that she cannot have any more children (Aegon seems to be basically a new-born infant at that moment), so if that is the case, then Rhaegar likely simply means that he and Elia need to have one more child. I am not sure that at that point, Rhaegar had any consideration of having a child with another woman. That plan presumably only forms after he finds out that Elia can have no more children (again, even if we don't know this fact for certain, it is a reasonable and logical conclusion).

 

Finally, in terms of the "gap" that you reference -- of course there is a gap -- GRRM needs to keep the readers guessing a bit. But we have enough information about Rhaegar and Lyanna to conclude that under whatever circumstances Rhaegar "took" Lyanna, it is highly unlikely that he kept her captive against her will. If Rhaegar is bound and determined to "create" the third head of the dragon, he is going to want this child to be a "dragon" in every sense that Rhaegar can control -- which would include getting married to Lyanna. While a Targ bastard is referred to as a dragonseed, Rhaegar would think he needs more than just a dragonseed (although I think Rhaegar probably was wrong on this point -- but it makes sense that Rhaegar would believe this element of fulfilling the prophecy) but a true dragon, which would mean having a trueborn Targ -- i.e., a child of Rhaegar and a woman married to Rhaegar. So while GRRM has not given us enough information to make definitive conclusions about the circumstances surrounding the "abduction and imprisonment" of Lyanna (of course I put those words in quotes because I don't think that is really what happened), we can use our logical reasoning powers based on other information we have (e.g., how Ned thinks of Rhaegar, why the KG were at ToJ and not DS with Viserys, etc.) to conclude that Lyanna voluntarily stayed with Rhaegar (even if she might not have known he was coming for her initially -- not sure on that point -- could go either way) that they got married and intentionally tried to have a child together.

 

 

 

 

The question is: if children are heads of the dragon, does he really need "ice head"? I.e., what is the reason to have Lyanna instead of any other girl? Aerys wanted girl with Valyrian roots for a reason. Yea, I know, usual claim is "we need balance between ice and fire" (whatever that means). But dragon itself is far from being in balance. He IS fire.

 

 

OK, this is an issue that comes up from time to time -- why choose Lyanna rather that someone else more available? Of course, we don't quite have enough information to be sure, but I think there are a few possibilities. If we conclude, as I think is reasonable, that Rhaegar believed that he needed to take a second wife and have a child with her to be the third head, why does this second wife have to be Lyanna? First, I think he was "smitten" with her from the tourney where he named her TQOLAB (or whatever the proper abbreviation is). I am not suggesting he fell in love with her there -- as he was married and at that time would not have considered cheating on his wife (she was not yet told she could have no more children at the time of the tourney) -- but Lyanna was his kind of woman (girl?). So if not Lyanna, who was he supposed to find to marry? Lyanna was someone he knew he would want to be with.

 

Another possibility is that when Rhaegar realizes that he cannot have the third head with Elia, and he starts thinking about the prophecy -- that the song of TPTWP is the Song of Ice and Fire, he might have realized that Lyanna was Ice to his Fire and thus he needed to have a child with her to be the prophecized prince (and if he is going to be a prince, then marrying Lyanna is a requirement as Rhaegar cannot rely on legitimization after the fact -- he needed to be guaranteed that the baby is a prince at birth to be safe in fulfilling the prophecy). Rhaegar was quite familiar with the content of the prophecy and presumably this statement about the song of ice and fire is part of the prophecy (no reason to believe Rhaegar would make something up like the name of the song, so most reasonable to conclude he read it in his research regarding the prophecy). So that might explain why getting Lyanna was so important.

 

Or, on a more practical level, he decided he needed to act fast and had no prior relationship with a female other than Lyanna. I think he felt he needed someone of noble birth -- so Lyanna really was the most available candidate -- especially if somehow he got word that she was not happy about getting married to Robert.

 

Admittedly, trying to answer your question requires much speculation. The point is that there are multiple reasonble possibilities for why Rhaegar decided to go after Lyanna. We probably cannot definitively conclude which one or more are the actual reasons until later reveals in later books. But I think I have outlined a few plausible reasons that make it potentially understandable why Rhaegar did what he did.

 

 

 

UL,

 

Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys were 'a team', too. They conquered Westeros together, remember, and Visenya even saved Aegon from assassins on a number of occasions (once with her own hands, and then countless other times by founding the KG and choosing the right members for it). Yet that didn't prevent Visenya from murdering Aenys I, Aegon's son by Rhaenys, her own nephew and stepson, and neither did it prevent Maegor from murdering two of Aegon's grandsons.

 

I conceded that King Rhaegar may have been able to keep things quiet and peaceful - just as there was no Dance while Viserys I was still alive - but there is really no reason to believe that lots of Targaryen children from different wifes don't lead to trouble in the long run.

 

Elia stuff:

 

The very idea that Barristan Selmy has no idea about the true feelings of a member of the royal family is ridiculous. We should not even have to discuss this. The man lived alongside Prince Rhaegar until the man moved to Dragonstone, and continued to do so after his return from the tower. There is no reason to believe Rhaegar would pretend to not loving Elia (i.e. behave in a way that a man like Barristan would conclude he was only fond of her) while he actually does. Why the hell should he do that? Not to mention that it would be rather difficult to pull that off if Rhaegar was actually in love with his wife. Barristan knows what he knows, and he knows that he wasn't privy to certain things, but that is another chapter. You don't involve a Kingsguard in a plot against the king unless you know for a certainty that he is on your side in the matter.

 

Not to mention that we don't have any indication that Rhaegar did love Elia. There is no textual evidence supporting this ides - instead, we have Barristan saying that this was not the case. Why would anyone want to believe that Rhaegar loved Elia? Just because they were married to each other? Please, then we can also believe Stannis and Selyse love each other, or that Jon Arryn and Lysa loved each other. Or that Joyeuse Erenford actually loves Walder Frey.

 

As to prophecy stuff:

 

Nothing suggests that the Targaryen version of the prophecy specifies anything about the fate or purpose of the promised prince. We don't even know whether Rhaegar's idea that he had to be a warrior once he was told/concluded that he was the promised prince is correct. The Azor Ahai version is similar. The Red Priests (Melisandre, Benerro) only search for him, but don't have a very special vision what his destiny is or against whom he has to fight or from what exactly he has to save humanity from. Else Melisandre would have been the one suggesting to Stannis to go to the Wall rather than conquer Westeros, and Benerro would prepare his followers to go to Westeros rather than promise them rewards and rebirth if they fought and died in Dany's name and/or service. Not to mention that Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, and Rhaegar would have done everything in their power to help and strengthen the Night's Watch if they had had any idea that the promised prince's destiny - who was either already born or expected to be born soon - was in any way connected to the Others or the Wall.

 

 

I don't really disagree with what you have written -- but I don't really think it is responsive to my points. Yes, bringing a second wife and son into the picture could create political problems. I get it -- Rhaegar should have known as much and probably did. But what I am asking you to acknowledge when you discuss this issue is the possibility that Rhaegar might have known about this risk but decided that he had to take the risk because he felt the obligation to try to fulfill the prophecy -- despite the risks involved. Sure, Rhaegar comes across at times as both a bit naive and arrogant. I simply think that to put the entire issue into context, you must consider the possibility that Rhaegar understood the risks you describe but decided he had no real choice but to take those risks because the imperative to bear and train the three heads was paramount to any political risk attendant to that action.

 

As to whether Rheagar knew exactly what the three heads were being trained for -- I agree he had no idea. I think he basically believed that an apocalyptic battle was destined to ensue and the fate of humanity rested on the three heads of the dragon being prepared to deal with the threat. He probably had no idea of the precise nature of the threat -- just that a threat was coming and his children -- the three heads -- needed to be trained to deal with it. None of my theories or conclusions rely on the presumption that Rhaegar knew the true nature of the coming threat -- just that he believed, from the prophecy, that TPTWP and the other two heads of the dragon needed to be prepared for an E.L.E. (extinction-level event). It is irrelevant whether Rhaegar knew the precise nature of the threat (and I agree he almost certainly did not). I am not sure why you think it matters whether he did. He actions can be explained best by concluding from the evidence we have that he believed he needed to train the three heads (his 3 children) to be ready for a huge threat -- but had no idea precisely what the threat would be.

 

 

 

 

We don't know that at all, is the problem. I actually think he happened to care for his children, had no plans to disinherit Aegon, and cared for Elia as a friend and partner.

 

 

Sure, but it's worth remembering that those "stupid" things and the hurt inflicted on his family are in hindsight. Rhaegar did not set out , IMO, to do anything stupid or to hurt his family (and certainly not to have his family killed). He certainly wasn't planning for things to fall out the way they did and it is stated in a Jaime POV that Rhaegar had some plan that went awry for reasons. We don't know what Rhaegar's plan was and Elia has been an almost totally silent character through 5 books, meaning we don't know how she felt about the entire Rhaegar and Lyanna situation. Even when her brother comes to KL we hear very little about Elia's feelings toward her husband and the woman he ran off with. Do I think she was overjoyed by the prospect of Rhaegar and Lyanna being in love and marrying and having children? Nope, certainly not. As Alia will remind us, she has her family and family politics to think about. But do I think that there might have been a conversation between R and Elia either about prophecy or R's plan or Lyanna? Yes.

 

 

Just wanted to note that, as usual --  :agree: ( :cool4:  :laugh:  :kiss: ).

[BearQueen87]

He had to know his behavior can possibly cause a civil war and he had to know nobody can be 100% sure to win a war. Otherwise he is either stupid or very proud to think himself as a superman.

 

 

Rhaegar could not have predicted that Brandon Stark would ride to King's Landing and demand his head on a platter. Could he have predicted that people would be upset? Yes. But there is no way Rhaegar could have known what Brandon and his friends were going to do--even Hoster Tully calls their acts foolish (if gallant).

 

 

Even Elia is very happy with her husband loving another woman and having child with her, I still can not see a good reason for Rhaegar to run off

 

Never said Elia was happy. I said there was a conversation between R and E about what was going on. Also, Rhaegar didn't run off to be with Lyanna--we don't know what impetus led him to "abduct her." Signs point to R leaving (with his friends) to put a plan into place to remove Aerys from the throne--where Lyanna fits in, we don't know. I think it was a plan between both of them that involved a prophetic understanding on Rhaegar's part, but I don't think Rhaegar up and decided to run away with a woman. There is still the larger political landscape and Rhaegar's plan WRT Aerys.

 

 

Unless his prophecy clearly told him he had to run off and have a child in TOJ to fulfill the prophecy. Before GRRM can give us a wonderful explanation for these whole thing other than hot love and rhaegar's madness, I will say rhaegar is stupid and mad and irresponsible for his family.

 

Rhaegar knew the dragon has to have three heads. He knows Elia cannot have any more children. Add to this the idea that it dawned on him that Aegon cannot be TPTWP because he cannot have the song of ice and fire (Elia being Dornish and not of the first men and not associated with any sort of "ice" or winter imagery, like the Targaryens are associated with fire and summer) and you have a rather strong prophetic reason. Now on the political side, we've often speculated that someone clued Aerys into the fact that Lyanna was the KotLT and it's possible that Rhaegar's sudden need to go after Lyanna was to protect her from his father's anger and wrath.

 

I see 0--absolutely zero--evidence that Rhaegar was mad like his father. I don't even know where you're getting that. You can hate him all you want and think him irresponsible but he seems to have been a clever, smart, dutiful and adept man.

[JonSnow4President]

Jon Snow has a twin!

 

I threw this out there is R+L=J v.149.  It caught a little traction but some how got skewed off track.  I have had a crackpot theory regarding the death of Lyanna Stark and she being Jon's mother.  The battle at Tower of Joy happens and Ned finds Lyanna afterwards dying.  Not because of giving birth to Jon, but because she gave birth to TWINS, Jon and another. 

 

Now here is where the theory takes a little twist and could sound more crackpot-ish.  Lyanna having twins would help explain why she died from the birth.  No other record of births of first children in ASoIaF that killed the mother.  However, one instance of twins, Cersei and Jamie.  It took Joanna 9 years to have Tyrion and she died from that birth.  It could be having twins has a very detrimental effect on the female body in The Known World. 

 

So Lyanna has twins.  Ned makes her the promise but notices that one of the baby's has Northern features (Lyanna's DNA, darker features) while the other baby has Valyrian features (Rhaegar's DNA, lighter features).  Ned could not take the valyrian styled baby back north because Robert would have questions and may kill Ned's nephew.  So he gave the baby to Ashara Dayne.  He was heading that way to give the Dayne's their ancestoral sword anyways.  The Dayne's carry valyrian features. 

 

It is believed at this point that Ashara has birthed and lost a baby.  Her excuse for committing suicide.  Instead my theory is Ned gave Ashara Jon's twin to heal the pain of losing her first child and also knowing Robert would eventually find out so Ashara "committed suicide" and ran off to Essos with Jon's twin.  She would eventually find Varys and Illyrio. 

 

These two help raise this child and make plans to one day put him on the Iron Throne, BOOM fAegon w/ JonCon is not Rhaegar's oldest son, that baby was killed during the Sack of KL.  Instead it is Rhaegar's youngest son, and twin of Jon Snow, carrying the same name Aegon.  This would help explain the theory of the septa with fAegon being Ashara Dayne. 

 

If you think about it it does help explain many theories if said theories come true.  Also, this story would be easy for Varys to spin and Ashara, Illyrio, and Varys could easily teach the boy his wrong age.  That would be easy.  They hide fAegon's valyrian features and he tends to have the same qualities of Jon, at least in bravery but also a short temper when being mocked. 

 

I like it because for the longest time everyone was R+L=J but never once has anyone mentioned the possibility of twins.  It puts a fantastic twist on a theory that everyone thought was a given. 

I hate to break this to you, but while you may have come up with this independently, it's not anything new.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I hate to break this to you, but while you may have come up with this independently, it's not anything new.

The theory also has been more or less debunked (if I recall correctly).

[BearQueen87]

 

I like it because for the longest time everyone was R+L=J but never once has anyone mentioned the possibility of twins.  It puts a fantastic twist on a theory that everyone thought was a given. 

 

Actually, like JS4P pointed out, the theory that Jon is a twin is a long standing one. Most of the time it comes down to two people: Dany (not possible based on the timeline) and Wylla Manderly (which is intriguing but I don't think what GRRM was intending with his "Wylla" figure yelling about promises)