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HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

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Mithras,

 

you actually think Dunk would have had 'the right' to claim a trial-by-combat or a Trial of Seven against Prince Aerion or Prince Maekar if his status as a knight wasn't even confirmed? It is crime to attack a prince of the blood, but it is not a crime for a prince to slap and torture some woman if he thinks she committed treason against House Targaryen.

 

Aerion had a right to demand a Trial of Seven, but nothing suggest that some one of lower rank - and all the lords of the Realm as well as their heirs are outranked by the Prince of Dragonstone - has to right to challenge his better to a duel. The whole idea of trial-by-combats is that two people of equal rank resolve their differences this way.

 

Brandon could only force Rhaegar into a trial-by-combat or into a single combat if he actually had the right to accuse the Prince of Dragonstone of a crime - which I don't think he has. That is, not without the king's permission. Naerys and Aemon were forced into a trial because Aegon IV listened to Naerys' accuser and apparently actually opened a trial - during which Naerys then had the right to a trial-by-combat and a champion. Aegon IV could also have taken the head of the accuser, just as Aerys II or Rhaegar could have simply commanded that Brandon be arrested, tried, and executed - which he was.

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http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77686-stuff-thats-confirmedhinted-at-in-awoiaf-app/?p=3876533
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77686-stuff-thats-confirmedhinted-at-in-awoiaf-app/?p=3876969


These are just forum posters pointing out things in the app. We already knew the app says that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. Prince of Ghost asked someone to point somewhere to George saying that Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name.

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Conclusions about Rhaegar's feelings concerning Lyanna are  based soley on him crowning her QOLAB and the idea that he ran off with her and we should tread carefully with these info because they are ALL unreliable.

Not true, we know that Rhaegar died with the name of a woman on his lips, and that name was confirmed by the author to be Lyanna.  I can't label that as unreliable. 

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Not true, we know that Rhaegar died with the name of a woman on his lips, and that name was confirmed by the author to be Lyanna.  I can't label that as unreliable. 

Among others.

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Not true, we know that Rhaegar died with the name of a woman on his lips, and that name was confirmed by the author to be Lyanna.  I can't label that as unreliable. 


No where did George ever say that Rhaegar died saying Lyanna's name... which you know as me and Prince of Ghost has been asking for someone to show George saying this for 3 pages now.

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If you doubt it so much why don't you provide some evidence that George has ever said that Rhaegar's last word was Lyanna?

 

Eh, that's not my beef, it is yours.

And who am I to question the word of our forum god, who wrote that GRRM did? Why am I writing this?

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Eh, that's not my beef, it is yours.

And who am I to question the word of our forum god, who wrote that GRRM did? Why am I writing this?


Ran never wrote that George said that Rhaegar's last words were Lyanna. Ran wrote that Rhaegar's last words were Lyanna after he "had lunch with George while he asked questions for the purposes of creating the app". Which does not mean that George ever answered a question about Rhaegar's last words or that Ran ever asked such a question, or how the question was phrased (did Ran ask if the vision was Rhaegar saying Lyanna or did Ran ask if Rhaegar said Lyanna as he died? There's a difference), etc.

Which is my entire point, about this specifically, and anything else in the app. Nothing can be demonstrably shown to have been what George said or have come from George beyond the vague notion that it might have come up during this lunch. Might. Not did.

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Maybe you should take this up with Ran then. I seriously doubt that Ran just pulled this info out of thin air.

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Maybe you should take this up with Ran then. I seriously doubt that Ran just pulled this info out of thin air.

 

I second @Consigliere's suggestion. I've read enough of Ran's to know he'd be more than eager to correct any wrongs he might have written.

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I feel like if APP said it is lyanna, then it should be Lyanna. 

By the way, how can it not be Lyanna?

I can not think about any other possible option.

Not his wife, not his daughter, not his mother, not even his future daughter. it has to be Lyanna. 

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As to Brandon, if Rickard stayed in Winterfell, and it appears he did since He isn't mentioned anywhere in the South and there always had to be a Stark in WF, Brandon would be acting in Rickards name as his heir.

I jokingly make the parallel between Sonny Corleone from the Godfather who was protective of his sister, because there was a theory a couple of years ago that Brandon was set up through misinformation that Rhaegar was in KL rather than Dragonstone or elsewhere, to get him out of the way of any opposition to a union.

If that is so, who set him up? We know according to Martin it wasn't LF, so who?

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Regarding the app

It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him. That said, it is not fully canon because GRRM reserves the right to change details noted in the app when he actually sits down to publish the details in the course of the novels. As a notable example,, his vision of the relationship of Bloodraven to what happened in Maekar's reign changed substantially when he sat down and wrote his contributions for the world book, and we'll be getting the app corrected in that regard.
 
Whether he is likely to change details noted in the app regarding Lyanna when he finally publishes the novels, I couldn't tell you, but I am doubtful.

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snip

 

This argument hinges on Lyanna knowing of Robert and his hatred for Targaryens. Lyanna didn't know Robert very well and only knew about the whoring probably due to his reputation. Now the "news" that filtered in could have stated that Robert had all the Targaryen children killed, and that would definitely put the fear into a new mother. I just don't see how she would have such intimate knowledge of Robert's hatred of Targaryens. Obviously Ned would have known.

 

We don't really know how the news was spread about the death of Elia and her children.

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The App states that Rickard and Brandon were on their way down south to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun when Brandon raced ahead of the main column with his companions, and then received the news about Lyanna and proceeded to KL, presumably without consulting Rickard, Robert, or anyone else first.

 

As to the situation in KL:

 

We don't really know whether Brandon or Rickard or both were accused by Aerys. There is a possibility that Rickard acted as Brandon's champion, but it seems more likely as if Rickard demanded a trial-by-combat for himself rather than Brandon - who could have done so on his own, and then fought fire on his own. Aerys' behavior of imprisoning Brandon and his companions and then calling on their fathers/lieges to defend them also suggests that he did not concern overly with them. He was after bigger prices, and it is actually quite an important and as of yet unknown of what crime exactly Aerys accused Rickard Stark. He obviously did not challenge Rhaegar to single combat.

 

It is not completely impossible that Mad Aerys wasn't able to let go of a young man's loud threats against his heir, even if the words were spoken in the heat of the moment. But then, it is much more likely that Aerys suspected something else was afoot of which the whole threat to Rhaegar was only a part of it. After Harrenhal Aerys would have been very suspicious of the Starks, and most likely not willing to even consider that Brandon was actually not conspiring with Rhaegar. If he failed to see the honest fury of the Starks at Harrenhal, there is really no reason to believe he would believe Brandon was telling the truth when he challenged Rhaegar to single combat. Especially if he did that at KL where Rhaegar wasn't at that time.

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I don't want to get in arguments about canonicity, but isn't the app meant to be written from a knowledgeable rather than infallible viewpoint, like the appendices? Like everyone else, I don't have the app so I'm not certain, but I thought this was the idea. Doesn't it have the Hound listed as dead, for example?

So the app may only be telling us that knowledgeable people believed that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. There's an SSM out there where someone asked GRRM whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually in love and his answer was that it was meant to be unclear. I'm not sure whether that was post-ADWD and post-app or not, though.

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I believe there is an SSM  where GRRM states that Rhaegar's last word was Lyanna.I recall myself reading it a year ago but i haven't been able to find it ever since just like another SMM about Jon being a little bit older than Robb.

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Only the books are canonical. ....You don't have to take my word on this but it is the truth.

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I don't want to get in arguments about canonicity, but isn't the app meant to be written from a knowledgeable rather than infallible viewpoint, like the appendices? Like everyone else, I don't have the app so I'm not certain, but I thought this was the idea. Doesn't it have the Hound listed as dead, for example?

So the app may only be telling us that knowledgeable people believed that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. There's an SSM out there where someone asked GRRM whether Lyanna and Rhaegar were actually in love and his answer was that it was meant to be unclear. I'm not sure whether that was post-ADWD and post-app or not, though.

That's  my understanding, too. Basically we get everything via POVs, not "directly." Save the SSMs--when Martin's feeling cooperative.

 

Something like the name seems like it would be revealed in one of the books vs. an SSM. But if he has put it in an SSM, that would be spectacular. We could finally pin it down. I googled and found nothing. Has anyone else found it? 

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I think the assumption was the Rickard would have faced off against one of the KG.
 
I could be wrong.. happens once every 2-3 years.

 


Lol, I'm kind of looking forward to as much I got wrong as right.

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