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HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

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Question to those of you suggesting the woman Rhaegar named before dying wasn't Lyanna: Who else? This strikes me as one of those things that wasn't explicitly stated but still was pretty much spelled out. 

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Question to those of you suggesting the woman Rhaegar named before dying wasn't Lyanna: Who else? This strikes me as one of those things that wasn't explicitly stated but still was pretty much spelled out. 

 

Right. I recall conversations about this prior to the release of the app, and the vast majority seemed to think it was obvious that it was Lyanna. Sure, you'd get the occasional dissenters, but that's normal in a fandom where people will argue that any and all younger brothers could be Cersei's valonqar.

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Question to those of you suggesting the woman Rhaegar named before dying wasn't Lyanna: Who else? This strikes me as one of those things that wasn't explicitly stated but still was pretty much spelled out. 

Maybe his wife, Elia, who bore his two known children? I guess we will have to wait to see if the answer is in The Winds of Winter, hopefully.

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I think its one of those topics that GRRM felt pretty safe to divulge because they're both dead so no need for obfuscating language.

 

If Martin were to change his mind after he confirmend it, what would that even sound like?

 

"As Rhaegar lay  dying, he realized he mentioned the wrong womans name." 

 

 

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

 

I mean at this point, its been almost two decades, I think its okay to get this monkey off his back and move on with the story. :dunno:

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I hope we finally learn who Jon Snow's parents are in The Winds of Winter, no matter who they are, it would be nice to have some closure.

 

I think that there are a couple of options for Jon to learn his parentage in the coming book, but I am still doubtful that GRRM makes the reveal to Jon so early... I think there are at least 4 books left...

  • He might learn that he is not Ned's while @ the heart of winter...
  • The 3-eyed-crow (or Bran) might tell him on Jon's return trip from the Heart of Winter...
  • If he makes it as far South as Winterfell in the next book, I suppose he could get some hints in the crypts - but this seems unlikely, Jon already has too much stuff planned North of the wall... By the time he gets as far South as Winterfell, Jon will be so very corrupted from living in a wolf & other character development catalysts that GRRM has planned for Jon that I don't know how such a revelation would impact him...

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As to Brandon, if Rickard stayed in Winterfell, and it appears he did since He isn't mentioned anywhere in the South and there always had to be a Stark in WF, Brandon would be acting in Rickards name as his heir.

 

I doubt that Rickard was sitting in Winterfell when he got word of Brandon's arrest due to the wedding. It also makes sense due to Rickard's rather quick response to Aerys request of him to come to Kings Landing to answer for his son's arrest.

 

We know that Benjen was in Winterfell during the rebellion, if Rickard did follow "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" he may have left Benjen there with a castellan.

 

 

The App states that Rickard and Brandon were on their way down south to Brandon's wedding at Riverrun when Brandon raced ahead of the main column with his companions, and then received the news about Lyanna and proceeded to KL, presumably without consulting Rickard, Robert, or anyone else first.

 

As to the situation in KL:

 

We don't really know whether Brandon or Rickard or both were accused by Aerys. There is a possibility that Rickard acted as Brandon's champion, but it seems more likely as if Rickard demanded a trial-by-combat for himself rather than Brandon - who could have done so on his own, and then fought fire on his own. Aerys' behavior of imprisoning Brandon and his companions and then calling on their fathers/lieges to defend them also suggests that he did not concern overly with them. He was after bigger prices, and it is actually quite an important and as of yet unknown of what crime exactly Aerys accused Rickard Stark. He obviously did not challenge Rhaegar to single combat.

 

It is not completely impossible that Mad Aerys wasn't able to let go of a young man's loud threats against his heir, even if the words were spoken in the heat of the moment. But then, it is much more likely that Aerys suspected something else was afoot of which the whole threat to Rhaegar was only a part of it. After Harrenhal Aerys would have been very suspicious of the Starks, and most likely not willing to even consider that Brandon was actually not conspiring with Rhaegar. If he failed to see the honest fury of the Starks at Harrenhal, there is really no reason to believe he would believe Brandon was telling the truth when he challenged Rhaegar to single combat. Especially if he did that at KL where Rhaegar wasn't at that time.

 

I was always under the impression that Brandon had left Riverrun to meet his father's wedding party headed south for the wedding and that they were on their way back to Riverrun when he got word of the "abduction" and then headed directly to KL.

 

Once there he made his threats and he and his party were arrested for treason due his treats to kill Rhaegar. Then Aerys demanded that their fathers come to KL to answer for their sons crimes, so it is likely that Aerys was after the fathers and not the sons but killed the sons as added punishment (tying the fates of the sons to the fathers outcomes). The fact that the sons that were arrested were from the paragon of the North, two Vale houses, a Riverlands house and one Northern house might have heightened his paranoia about the nobles plotting against him.

 

We don't know if the other fathers made similar requests and got similar results, we only know that the only survivor was Ethan Glover, whom joined Ned after the sack and died at ToJ. Maybe his father did not arrive to answer for his son's crime before the banners were called?

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"As Rhaegar lay  dying, he realized he mentioned the wrong womans name." 

 

 

:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

 

:lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:

 

The whole time, we thought that GRRM was going all Faulkner, and it was Monty Python instead.

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That's  my understanding, too. Basically we get everything via POVs, not "directly." Save the SSMs--when Martin's feeling cooperative.
 


An example is the family tree. The World Book shows Jon as being the son of Eddard and "unknown", but I'm guessing most people in these parts would regard that as untrue, despite being written by their "forum God".

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Question to those of you suggesting the woman Rhaegar named before dying wasn't Lyanna: Who else? This strikes me as one of those things that wasn't explicitly stated but still was pretty much spelled out. 

Why couldn't it be Elia? Or if it was Lyanna what was the context penned in the app?

 

This is what the app says:

 

 Dueling on horseback in the fording of the river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna’s name on his lips.

 

 

I don't know about you guys but that's not proof.There's no context.Additionally,how Rhaegar is able to murmur anything at all, farless audible enough for anyone for anyone hear  with a caved in chest it is beyond me.

 

The visions in the house of Undying maybe a little inaccurate.Even the description of the Mad King is off.Where's the matted hair and long trailing yellow finger nails?

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Why couldn't it be Elia? Or if it was Lyanna what was the context penned in the app?

 

Really? you don't wanna give Martin the benefit of the doubt that Rhaegar felt secure before leaving for the Trident, that he had left her and his children in the hands of Jaime to protect, inside a big castle with thousands of armed guards in the city?? compare that to Lyanna, who was soon with child, inside a feeble tower with just 3 armed guards?

 

Really??? are you that inept to read Martin's subtle intent? WOW!

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Really? you don't wanna give Martin the benefit of the doubt that Rhaegar felt secure before leaving for the Trident, that he had left her and his children in the hands of Jaime to protect, inside a big castle with thousands of armed guards in the city?? compare that to Lyanna, who was soon with child, inside a feeble tower with just 3 armed guards?
 
Really??? are you that inept to read Martin's subtle intent? WOW!


Actually,astute enough to consider and contemplate a few contextual avenues.I pride myself on looking at the whole picture without superimposing my will, wants and desires on it.

 

ETA: You might want to READ the context of the entry and then question it's reliability.

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An example is the family tree. The World Book shows Jon as being the son of Eddard and "unknown", but I'm guessing most people in these parts would regard that as untrue, despite being written by their "forum God".

 

You do realize that the World of Ice and Fire is written from the POV of a specific fictional maester, right? Elio, Linda and George discussed this in a panel at Archipelacon. The fictional maester responsible for AWOIAF is to be taken as a limited, possibly biased (in favor of saving his own butt) maester during the reign of Tommen. That narrative conceit allowed them to avoid including spoilers for things that haven't been revealed in the narrative yet.

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As to the question of, "Why couldn't it be Elia?" Because an argument of we don't know FOR SURE so maybe it's not the thing we all know it is isn't really even an argument, by itself. Again, even before the app, pretty much everybody already knew it was Lyanna. 

 

Here's a question for the doubters: If it was anybody but Lyanna, why does the app specifically say it was her?

 

Regarding the point about Jon Snow being listed as Ned Stark's bastard. Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are all listed under House Baratheon in the appendix of ADwD, for sure. Probably the others as well. Same idea.

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This argument hinges on Lyanna knowing of Robert and his hatred for Targaryens. Lyanna didn't know Robert very well and only knew about the whoring probably due to his reputation. Now the "news" that filtered in could have stated that Robert had all the Targaryen children killed, and that would definitely put the fear into a new mother. I just don't see how she would have such intimate knowledge of Robert's hatred of Targaryens. Obviously Ned would have known.

 

We don't really know how the news was spread about the death of Elia and her children.

 

No, I wouldn't say it hinges on Lyanna knowing of how over the edge Robert has gone with his hatred of Targaryens. It does assume she feels threatened by Robert retaking her, and most certainly if she has a child by Rhaegar, it assumes the fear in her eyes comes from a fear for her child's life from Robert. It is right to question those assumptions, but I think they are pretty good ones. It presumes news of the sack has reached the tower of joy. Not just the sack, but of the murder of Elia and her children. It assumes the tower knows Ned was the rebel commander who led the rebel army into King's Landing after the Lannister's led the way. Lyanna's fear would be natural if she had heard those facts. She doesn't have to know of Robert's speech railing against "dragonspawn" though that would make her fear all the more real. Perhaps if she knows her brother argued against Robert's acceptance of the murders she might have had a different response than fear to Ned, but even then she knows what his duty would tell him to do. Although the argument between Robert and Ned probably doesn't take place, in the main at least, in open court for anyone to hear.

 

I make the assumption that the tower knows this based on ideas I've argued before. Some of which are in those posts in my signature. I think it just common sense that military men like the Hightower, Dayne, and Whent are going to know the need for and the value of intelligence about what one's enemies are doing. They are not just going to stay hidden at the tower without regular sources of information. It's not safe to do so. So when Ned leaves King's Landing and goes to Storm's End before setting out to the tower, there is a space of weeks (most likely around six weeks) in which this information should be communicated to all the loyalist lords and their forces left fighting. Rhaegar's loyalists and those who help support the tower would make sure that includes the people there. Does it have to be that way? No, but it is likely it was, and notice that doesn't rely on the dialogue in Ned's dream to be real. And, yes, I know the dialogue doesn't include a reference to Elia and her children, but it does mention the sack and their murders would be part of any news communicated about that event. The dream could be, of course, a reflection of what happened, or it could only be Ned's mind struggling with what he thinks the trio knew and what was their motives for fighting him. But it doesn't really matter. Hightower, Dayne, and Whent are not fools, and only fools would not try their damnedest to find out if there where developments that put them in danger. A theory based on the Kingsguard being fools seems very, very unlikely to be the story Martin is writing.

 

One last thing. I has to be kept in mind that the information we are talking about isn't a closely guarded military secret. It is the account that would have spread like wildfire throughout Westeros and the topic on everyone's lips. The Mad King is Dead! His grandchildren and their mother butchered as well!

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Here's a question for the doubters: If it was anybody but Lyanna, why does the app specifically say it was her?

 

 

 

 

Its all the fault of those damn ballad singers  :cool4:

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Really? you don't wanna give Martin the benefit of the doubt that Rhaegar felt secure before leaving for the Trident, that he had left her and his children in the hands of Jaime to protect, inside a big castle with thousands of armed guards in the city?? compare that to Lyanna, who was soon with child, inside a feeble tower with just 3 armed guards?
 
Really??? are you that inept to read Martin's subtle intent? WOW!


That's completely unnecessary.

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As to the question of, "Why couldn't it be Elia?" Because an argument of we don't know FOR SURE so maybe it's not the thing we all know it is isn't really even an argument, by itself. Again, even before the app, pretty much everybody already knew it was Lyanna.


'General consensus' is not the same as 'cannon' when a story is as yet incomplete.

Here's a question for the doubters: If it was anybody but Lyanna, why does the app specifically say it was her?


I'm a bit new to the app, but is it verifiable that GRRM okayed everything in the app?

 

Regarding the point about Jon Snow being listed as Ned Stark's bastard. Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are all listed under House Baratheon in the appendix of ADwD, for sure. Probably the others as well. Same idea.


Yeah, with you on that. It's a bit silly to go by what is essentially Westerosi Record Keeping, because it's a secret, it's not going to be in an official document (which is what TWOIAF is).

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'General consensus' is not the same as 'cannon' when a story is as yet incomplete.


I'm a bit new to the app, but is it verifiable that GRRM okayed everything in the app?

 

I didn't say it was. I just said that basically everybody already knew that the name on Rhaegar's lips was Lyanna. The app just went ahead and stated it in plain text.

 

It's GRRM approved. But did he okay every single word in the app? I don't know about that. There have been mistakes in the app, but they were corrected. That particular entry remains intact, however.

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I didn't say it was. I just said that basically everybody already knew that the name on Rhaegar's lips was Lyanna. The app just went ahead and stated it in plain text.
 
It's GRRM approved. But did he okay every single word in the app? I don't know about that. There have been mistakes in the app, but they were corrected. That particular entry remains intact, however.



Yeah, didn't mean to imply you had said that :)

Looking back at the discussion, I'm not entirely sure that it matters if her name was the last he said. Essentially, she's the reason he's dying, regardless of circumstance.

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