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HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

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An example is the family tree. The World Book shows Jon as being the son of Eddard and "unknown", but I'm guessing most people in these parts would regard that as untrue, despite being written by their "forum God".

 

Conversations about canon are useless, but there's no reason to disrespect Elio (and LInda). They work hard to keep this place up and running, a place you frequent to discuss your feelings on novels. Try some respect for them in their house, yeah?

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Conversations about canon are useless, but there's no reason to disrespect Elio (and LInda). They work hard to keep this place up and running, a place you frequent to discuss your feelings on novels. Try some respect for them in their house, yeah?

 

I think she's referencing a post by Jon Weirgaryen.

 

 

Eh, that's not my beef, it is yours.

And who am I to question the word of our forum god, who wrote that GRRM did? Why am I writing this?

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Then I apologize since I clearly misunderstood. We could all try for general civility, though, if we're going to retrod some well worn ground (again)

 

In other news: with regards to the Lyanna/app debate: we've had it 1001 times before but I have to agree with something J.Star said which is that "we simply don't know" isn't a very good answer to why Lyanna as the name or just the general app are wrong. It being Lyanna's name on his lips makes sense given the relationship of RL as a whole--whether it was a consensual relationship or not. The app just seems to confirm what a good portion of readers suspect--that there is something much larger between R and L and the details of that are coming at some point in GRRM's story.

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Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

 

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than [cooked meat and charred bone.]

Dany's Undying Chapter:
“Let him be king over [charred bones and cooked meat],” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

You were the one should have been king, you or... Jon.
Robert to Ned[Oh the irony]

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?

 Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.Can Rhaego be included?

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Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy.

 

I am bleeding like a butchered pig, he [Jon] thought

Whatever demonic force moved Othor had been driven out by the flames; the twisted thing they had found in the ashes had been no more than [cooked meat and charred bone.]

Dany's Undying Chapter:
“Let him be king over [charred bones and cooked meat],” he said to a man below him. “Let him be the king of ashes.”

You were the one should have been king, you or... Jon.
Robert to Ned[Oh the irony]

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?

 Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.Can Rhaego be included?

 

 

Some of us used to think so, including me, but probably not. Aerys and Rhaella had several other children that were either stillborn or died in the first year. But if you view Rhaegar's rubies as Rhaegar's family, which I think is what you're getting at, then it's probably more likely that the six are:

 

1. Aerys

 

2. Rhaella

 

3. Viserys

 

4. Rhaenys

 

5. Aegon

 

6. Daenerys

 

With Jon being the seventh.

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Question to those of you suggesting the woman Rhaegar named before dying wasn't Lyanna: Who else? This strikes me as one of those things that wasn't explicitly stated but still was pretty much spelled out. 

maybe Elia. maybe Lyanna. If you've read the first unpublished draft of asoiaf it's definitely Lyanna. Most people believe it's Lyanna. The obvious choice is Lyanna. But you know GRRM, he's a slimy manipulator. It's either A or B... Fire or Ice...

 

 

I myself see Rhaegar as a man of honor....but also bloody dutiful. He might have only had an affair with Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy of the prince and maybe explained it all to his wife who...maybe...just maybe... consented and understood him....

 

or maybe he just loved Lyanna so madly that's all....

 

o maybe he's swearing 'holy maiden mother and crone!' as he lay dying (lol)

 

but still.... its fun to speculate!

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maybe Elia. maybe Lyanna. If you've read the first unpublished draft of asoiaf it's definitely Lyanna. Most people believe it's Lyanna. The obvious choice is Lyanna. But you know GRRM, he's a slimy manipulator. It's either A or B... Fire or Ice...

 

 

I myself see Rhaegar as a man of honor....but also bloody dutiful. He might have only had an affair with Lyanna to fulfill the prophecy of the prince and maybe explained it all to his wife who...maybe...just maybe... consented and understood him....

 

or maybe he just loved Lyanna so madly that's all....

 

o maybe he's swearing 'holy maiden mother and crone!' as he lay dying (lol)

 

but still.... its fun to speculate!

 

What makes you say that?

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Some of us used to think so, including me, but probably not. Aerys and Rhaella had several other children that were either stillborn or died in the first year. But if you view Rhaegar's rubies as Rhaegar's family, which I think is what you're getting at, then it's probably more likely that the six are:

 

1. Aerys

 

2. Rhaella

 

3. Viserys

 

4. Rhaenys

 

5. Aegon

 

6. Daenerys

 

With Jon being the seventh.

What bothers me is the fact that you mentioned Daenerys and Viserys.Shouldn't Rhaegar's other siblings be included as well?

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What bothers me is the fact that you mentioned Daenerys and Viserys.Shouldn't Rhaegar's other siblings be included as well?

 

They were dead.

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there was the first original draft. unpublished and unfinished. 

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/

it's the 'rode not taken' route. its obvious in there that lyanna ad rhaegar fell in love. bec. in there, arya and jon fell in love.

 

I've read the outline. I thought you might have meant something different when you said "unpublished draft."

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Looking back at the discussion, I'm not entirely sure that it matters if her name was the last he said. Essentially, she's the reason he's dying, regardless of circumstance.

 

 

 

I agree!  :agree:

 

As mentioned before, although particular Robert B. and some other characters profess that to be the case, it actually isn't the reason for Rhaegar's death.

 

Rhaegar died, because

- Robert's warhammer pierced his heart,

- Rhaegar was so stupid in his noble and chivalrous way of agreeing to fight Robert in single combat, (some fans propose he even dismounted), instead of crushing the robellion by the sheer force of his numbers in a much greater army.

- Rhaegar agreed to lead that army on Aerys' request in the first place.

- Jon Arryn refused to deliver Ned and Robert to Aerys

- Aerys asked for Ned and Robert's heads after Rickard and Brandon and 200 Northern nobility burned

- Brandon overreacted when he learned of Lyanna's abduction and challenged Rhaegar's life.

 

But I agree, that's complicated and a lot of circumstance.

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snip

 

I wasn't referencing actual news. In reality the actual news would be: "The Lannisters raped and murdered Elia and smashed Aegon's head against a wall". I was talking about garbled news that isn't accurate that would suggest that Robert had ordered it. We just don't know what information even made it to the tower. I know you feel that the Kingsguard had some impressive Vary's style spy network which kept them informed of specific details going on in Kingslanding. It's possible they had some active contacts, but having detailed information is probably a stretch.

 

If we assume TOJ heard about Elia and her children being murdered intentionally (doubt they would have heard about Robert's hatred) then yes Lyanna would have some fear that her bastard might be killed too.

 

If we assume the TOJ didn't know the details of Elia and her children's deaths or if it was even common knowledge at this point. Then the logical explanation for her fear wouldn't be a known hatred of Robert for a bastard with no claim, it would be a fear of a legitimate contender for the throne who Robert would have to remove. Ned who had just supported Robert might feel obligated to turn over his nephew. Would Ned feel obligated to turn over a bastard?

 

This fear wasn't just about Robert, it was also about what Ned would do. Hiding a bastard wouldn't be that big of an offense. Hiding a legitimate Targaryen would be considered treason. Lyanna had real fear that Ned would do something, and when he made the promise she was relieved.

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:lmao:  :lmao:  :lmao:

 

The whole time, we thought that GRRM was going all Faulkner, and it was Monty Python instead.

 

Well thats the danger if he does tinker around like that is it not? He has to keep that story well balanced and on target or it does risk becoming a soap opera.

 

There will be some things he can definitely answer at this point that really doesn't give anything away yet.

 

Confirmation that Rhaegar spoke Lyannas name is up there with confirmation that Arianne and Darkstar slept together- kind of a no brainer.

 

The rest he may parce his words to have flexibility to move around within the story without changing the story which he has said he will never do.

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As to the question of, "Why couldn't it be Elia?" Because an argument of we don't know FOR SURE so maybe it's not the thing we all know it is isn't really even an argument, by itself. Again, even before the app, pretty much everybody already knew it was Lyanna. 

 

Here's a question for the doubters: If it was anybody but Lyanna, why does the app specifically say it was her?

 

Regarding the point about Jon Snow being listed as Ned Stark's bastard. Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are all listed under House Baratheon in the appendix of ADwD, for sure. Probably the others as well. Same idea.

 

I don't think that's the question we should be asking. I posted the entry from the app and everyone is just glossing over the context. He could have said Lyanna's name but again what was the context,tone,emotion behind it.That we don't know.

 

I also second Black Crow....Blame the bloody singers.

 

The app is not canon!!!!! Furthermore it is written from a biased in universe POV. JStar it is not realistic or likely given what that war hammer did that  Rhaegar could utter a word with a caved in chest or that anyone could hear him whispher anything to report back to a Maester.Its all romanticism being employed.

 

Some of us used to think so, including me, but probably not. Aerys and Rhaella had several other children that were either stillborn or died in the first year. But if you view Rhaegar's rubies as Rhaegar's family, which I think is what you're getting at, then it's probably more likely that the six are:

 

1. Aerys

 

2. Rhaella

 

3. Viserys

 

4. Rhaenys

 

5. Aegon

 

6. Daenerys

 

With Jon being the seventh.

Wait a minute i don't get this Rhaegella and Aerys had children that lived to see their first year just like Aegon why are they excluded?

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there was the first original draft. unpublished and unfinished. 

http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/05/george-rr-martin-original-game-of-thrones-pitch/

it's the 'rode not taken' route. its obvious in there that lyanna ad rhaegar fell in love. bec. in there, arya and jon fell in love.

 

Yeah, Jons parents were only important so Jon and Arya could be together without too much of an "ick" factor as cousins, now its Jons parents who have become the "Marcia Brady" of fan lore, lol.

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Rereading affc and like "father" like "son" Jon employs the baby swap to protect the Mance's son, who jon was present at the birth of...

Rhaegar died because Robert found him on the trident battlefield, credit where it is due. Regardless of the numbers the rebels seemed to slay more of the important commanders to name a few lewyn martell, and the wounding and capturing of the bold. Rhaegar was a fool for not bringing Sers Arthur, oswell, and gerold to the fight with him, like come on.

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I don't think that's the question we should be asking. I posted the entry from the app and everyone is just glossing over the context. He could have said Lyanna's name but again what was the context,tone,emotion behind it.That we don't know.

 

I also second Black Crow....Blame the bloody singers.

 

The app is not canon!!!!! Furthermore it is written from a biased in universe POV. JStar it is not realistic or likely given what that Rhaegar could utter a word with a caved in chest or that anyone could hear him whispher anything to report back to a Maester.

Wait a minute i don't get this Rhaegella and Aerys had children that lived to see their first year just like Aegon why are they excluded?

 

Wait, I thought you would champion the main books as canon, not the world book (or the app).  

 

And how do we know the 1 yr old children Rhaella birthed was by Aerys? He certainly had doubt that Rhaella was being faithful, leading him to lock her up in Maegor's Holdfast, ordering septas to sleep in her bed.  This same Aerys, who some believed, declare Viserys as the heir to the throne.

 

See? I can nitpick too. 

 

I guess only when it serves to undermine Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's true parents? Oh the irony.  :dunno:

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Most of y'all operate under the assumption that Jon would be Jon Targaryen, correct? Or would he have a cool new bastard name? Like Icefyre or Azor Ahai

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