Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

Recommended Posts

 
I don't think that's the question we should be asking. I posted the entry from the app and everyone is just glossing over the context. He could have said Lyanna's name but again what was the context,tone,emotion behind it.That we don't know.
 
I also second Black Crow....Blame the bloody singers.
 
The app is not canon!!!!! Furthermore it is written from a biased in universe POV. JStar it is not realistic or likely given what that war hammer did that  Rhaegar could utter a word with a caved in chest or that anyone could hear him whispher anything to report back to a Maester.Its all romanticism being employed.
Wait a minute i don't get this Rhaegella and Aerys had children that lived to see their first year just like Aegon why are they excluded?

A maester wouldn't know that Arianne and Gerold Dayne had slept together, for example.

The app is a combination is summarized info from the books, and additional statements by GRRM. Some are completely new info, some are clearifications on several issues. In a year or so, some of those statements might be outdated. We've seen such an example already. We've also seen an example of a reveal of info in the app, which only later was revealed in a reading, and even more later in a book. It can go both ways. Still, if there is nothing that contradicts the statement, why not accept it? It is the same as an SSM, GRRM night change his mind in the (near) future. Or not. But when he does, the app will be changed accordingly (as we've seen).

I don't see a reason to not believe this particular statement in the app, where the others are believed.
It 'killed' a small theory of mine (I originally speculated Rhaegar's dying word was 'Visenya', for the daughter he had basically started a war for, but whom he'd never meet).. so be it. I can't say I mind much.. nor should I, imo.

In addition, that Rhaegar's last word before he died was 'Lyanna', doesn't mean he had a child with Lyanna :)

Edit: accidentally repeated half a sentence within that sentence

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I wasn't referencing actual news. In reality the actual news would be: "The Lannisters raped and murdered Elia and smashed Aegon's head against a wall". I was talking about garbled news that isn't accurate that would suggest that Robert had ordered it. We just don't know what information even made it to the tower. I know you feel that the Kingsguard had some impressive Vary's style spy network which kept them informed of specific details going on in Kingslanding. It's possible they had some active contacts, but having detailed information is probably a stretch.

 

A "Vary's style spy network" is an overstatement of what I think, but I do think they have former supporters of Rhaegar (were is Richard Lonmouth anyways?), and their own contacts (the Daynes etc.) as well as being able to gather news from the widespread talk of the events that have shaken Westerosi life and politics to its foundations. I think it very unlikely they are so isolated they haven't heard the news of the sack. That includes Aerys's death at Jaime's hands, Elia and her children's murder, and that Ned was the general who took control of the Iron Throne until Robert arrives. The details I think rather less likely they knew concerns things like the split between Robert and Ned, whether the Lannisters were part of the rebel alliance before they attacked the city, and things of that order. The first three are things anyone in King's Landing would know, and Targaryen loyalists would clearly want to communicate these events to their brethren throughout Westeros.

 

I think three things should be kept in mind when thinking about how extensive was the "network" that the Kingsguard could draw on. One, the Kingsguard Trio's long history as not only guardians of the king, but as military commanders. Two, the long struggle between Rhaegar supporters and Aerys supporters in the lead up to the rebellion - meaning Rhaegar had supporters within the court who would both supply him with information and support his efforts in a clandestine way. And three, the absolute need for outside help in maintaining the people in the tower and keeping their presence there a secret. I just think to assume the people at the tower are totally ignorant of these events stretches one's credulity beyond the breaking point. Martin doesn't do that.

 

As a side note. I've purposely left out the news before the sack - the events at the Trident, the flight to Dragonstone, and Aerys's placing Viserys before Aegon in the line of succession - to not derail the discussion from the critical point of whether or not the news of the sack likely reached the tower and was the cause of Lyanna's fear, but if you want to have that discussion as well, we can.

 

 

If we assume TOJ heard about Elia and her children being murdered intentionally (doubt they would have heard about Robert's hatred) then yes Lyanna would have some fear that her bastard might be killed too.

 

If we assume the TOJ didn't know the details of Elia and her children's deaths or if it was even common knowledge at this point. Then the logical explanation for her fear wouldn't be a known hatred of Robert for a bastard with no claim, it would be a fear of a legitimate contender for the throne who Robert would have to remove. Ned who had just supported Robert might feel obligated to turn over his nephew. Would Ned feel obligated to turn over a bastard?

 

 

Let me be clear. I'm not arguing Jon was a bastard. I've come to believe Ned thinks that is so, but I don't think he is right in that regard. I think there are reasons to think Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna outside of the actions and motives of the Kingsguard. A topic for another discussion.

 

Regarding the above, the threat to Lyanna's child may be less if it is a bastard, but one has to look at this not in a cold calculating manner of who is next in line for the throne, but from the simple fact that Robert killed Rhaegar at the Trident, and Rheaegar's wife and children are murdered along with his father when the rebels control King's Landing. One can argue about the degree of danger a bastard child of Rhaegar's would be in, but that there is danger is fairly evident, especially to the mother of the child. This is not just any bastard child Rhaegar fathered on a tavern wench, but a child he has with Robert's betrothed. I just don't find the idea Robert would ignore the child Rhaegar had with Lyanna and let it live a long life free of threat to be tenable. I certainly don't think Lyanna would either and that doesn't have to be based on any special understanding of Robert's psyche - only on the events I've mentioned. Of course, if Jon is the legitimate son, we both agree the threat is very, very real.

 

Would Ned feel the need to hand over a bastard child? From the standpoint of his duty to his king, I think he has the duty to tell Robert the truth. That is so even though Ned is fully aware of the extent of Robert's rage against "dragonspawn" and how that rage would put the child in danger. I think Ned decides to not do so, whether or not the child is bastard born or legitimate, because as he says "to begin with I don't kill children." That is Ned's touchstone of right and wrong. One does not murder innocents.

 

 

This fear wasn't just about Robert, it was also about what Ned would do. Hiding a bastard wouldn't be that big of an offense. Hiding a legitimate Targaryen would be considered treason. Lyanna had real fear that Ned would do something, and when he made the promise she was relieved.

 

 

I absolutely agree Lyanna's fear is not only about what Robert would do, but also what Ned would do. She knows her brother's honorable ways and his friendship and duty to his new king. I think she knows Ned was in command of the rebel troops that took the city. While she may well have doubts that her brother would condone the murder of Elia and her children, she still cannot but worry about how the war and his responsibilities in it have shaped what he might do when they meet. When the life of one's child is in question, those worries become overwhelming fears. I don't think those fears are gone if Jon is a bastard, and I think lying to the king about who Jon's father is is, as Robert puts it "a great crime." Ned may rationalize it into something less than treason, but it still is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

A "Vary's style spy network" is an overstatement of what I think, but I do think they have former supporters of Rhaegar (were is Richard Lonmouth anyways?), and their own contacts (the Daynes etc.) as well as being able to gather news from the widespread talk of the events that have shaken Westerosi life and politics to its foundations. I think it very unlikely they are so isolated they haven't heard the news of the sack. That includes Aerys's death at Jaime's hands, Elia and her children's murder, and that Ned was the general who took control of the Iron Throne until Robert arrives. The details I think rather less likely they knew concerns things like the split between Robert and Ned, whether the Lannisters were part of the rebel alliance before they attacked the city, and things of that order. The first three are things anyone in King's Landing would know, and Targaryen loyalists would clearly want to communicate these events to their brethren throughout Westeros.

 

I think three things should be kept in mind when thinking about how extensive was the "network" that the Kingsguard could draw on. One, the Kingsguard Trio's long history as not only guardians of the king, but as military commanders. Two, the long struggle between Rhaegar supporters and Aerys supporters in the lead up to the rebellion - meaning Rhaegar had supporters within the court who would both supply him with information and support his efforts in a clandestine way. And three, the absolute need for outside help in maintaining the people in the tower and keeping their presence there a secret. I just think to assume the people at the tower are totally ignorant of these events stretches one's credulity beyond the breaking point. Martin doesn't do that.

 

My argument isn't that they weren't aware of the major events; but instead weren't aware of the details of said events. Elia and her children being dead is probably a likely known piece of information (assuming they also knew about Jaime and Aerys, which the conversation suggests they did). Did they know which army was responsible for it? Did they know if the Lannisters were in cahoots with the rebels? Did they know the deaths were intentional? (bad things happen when you sack a city and a lot of people are killed and raped, and it's not always intentional). Did they know that Robert had a personal hatred for all Targaryens?

 

I exaggerated your stance on their information network to point out that while they maybe informed, they might not have accurate or reliable information. They are also unlikely to have insider information into the rebel's leadership. Nor are they likely to have insider information into the Lannisters.

 

 

Let me be clear. I'm not arguing Jon was a bastard. I've come to believe Ned thinks that is so, but I don't think he is right in that regard. I think there are reasons to think Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna outside of the actions and motives of the Kingsguard. A topic for another discussion.

 

Sounds interesting. Are you referencing the symbolism around Jon? Or are you referring to other evidence? I would be interested in that tangent. I of course find the Kingsguard and their actions (especially Hightower) as hard evidence to support Jon as a legitimate Targaryen. I find any other explanation to be rather convoluted and less likely. Of course there is too little information to go on and Martin could easily put this on its head with additional reveals.

 

 

Regarding the above, the threat to Lyanna's child may be less if it is a bastard, but one has to look at this not in a cold calculating manner of who is next in line for the throne, but from the simple fact that Robert killed Rhaegar at the Trident, and Rheaegar's wife and children are murdered along with his father when the rebels control King's Landing. One can argue about the degree of danger a bastard child of Rhaegar's would be in, but that there is danger is fairly evident, especially to the mother of the child. This is not just any bastard child Rhaegar fathered on a tavern wench, but a child he has with Robert's betrothed. I just don't find the idea Robert would ignore the child Rhaegar had with Lyanna and let it live a long life free of threat to be tenable. I certainly don't think Lyanna would either and that doesn't have to be based on any special understanding of Robert's psyche - only on the events I've mentioned. Of course, if Jon is the legitimate son, we both agree the threat is very, very real.

 

And I did agree there is danger no doubt for a bastard. The extent of that danger is unknown. We know the Lannisters killed Elia and her children because they had legitimate claim to the throne. A bastard has no such claim and is definitely less of a threat than say Viserys. The danger Lyanna feels is imminent. Which I will go into further detail responding to your next paragraph.

 

 

Would Ned feel the need to hand over a bastard child? From the standpoint of his duty to his king, I think he has the duty to tell Robert the truth. That is so even though Ned is fully aware of the extent of Robert's rage against "dragonspawn" and how that rage would put the child in danger. I think Ned decides to not do so, whether or not the child is bastard born or legitimate, because as he says "to begin with I don't kill children." That is Ned's touchstone of right and wrong. One does not murder innocents.

 

So you're saying Lyanna would strongly fear Ned would make the choice of turning over a bastard, who he is related with, because of duty? I can't say that I know that Ned and Lyanna were close or not. Obviously Ned was living in the Vale for years so it's possible that Lyanna didn't know her brother all that well at that time. I just don't see her being in a panic over this outcome. It requires two things to be concretely in Lyanna's mind: 1.) Robert would no doubt harm/kill her bastard baby. 2.) Ned would knowingly deliver someone he is related to, to its death even though that child represents no threat to his Monarch.

 

I guess it is possible.

 

 

I absolutely agree Lyanna's fear is not only about what Robert would do, but also what Ned would do. She knows her brother's honorable ways and his friendship and duty to his new king. I think she knows Ned was in command of the rebel troops that took the city. While she may well have doubts that her brother would condone the murder of Elia and her children, she still cannot but worry about how the war and his responsibilities in it have shaped what he might do when they meet. When the life of one's child is in question, those worries become overwhelming fears. I don't think those fears are gone if Jon is a bastard, and I think lying to the king about who Jon's father is is, as Robert puts it "a great crime." Ned may rationalize it into something less than treason, but it still is.

 

I disagree on the treason aspect. The difference with a bastard vs. a legitimate child is night and day in Westeros. The Lord Protectorates are under no obligation to report to the King on any and all matters. A bastard poses no threat to Robert's throne and new dynasty. A legitimate child however would. I think Ned rationalized the fact that he would never give Jon the chance to use his claim to the throne as a way to diminish his "treason" to the King.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Question to those of you suggesting the woman Rhaegar named before dying wasn't Lyanna: Who else? This strikes me as one of those things that wasn't explicitly stated but still was pretty much spelled out. 

Maybe it never actually happened. It's a vision, not a memory.

 
Really? you don't wanna give Martin the benefit of the doubt that Rhaegar felt secure before leaving for the Trident, that he had left her and his children in the hands of Jaime to protect, inside a big castle with thousands of armed guards in the city?? compare that to Lyanna, who was soon with child, inside a feeble tower with just 3 armed guards?
 
Really??? are you that inept to read Martin's subtle intent? WOW!


Rhaegar didn't leave his wife and children in Jaime's hands. He specifically told Jaime to stick by Aerys' side when he left.

Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour."


And there's nothing saying that the tower of joy was a feeble tower except in your head. Our only descriptions of the tower is that it was round, and that Ned destroyed it.

Here's a question for the doubters: If it was anybody but Lyanna, why does the app specifically say it was her?


Why do you assume that because the app says so that that information came from George when there's zero proof that it did?

It's GRRM approved. But did he okay every single word in the app? I don't know about that. There have been mistakes in the app, but they were corrected. That particular entry remains intact, however.


If no one asks about the entry being a mistake, it obviously wouldn't get corrected if it was now would it? My latest edition of AGOT still has spelling mistakes, does that mean that they're not mistakes because they were never corrected in the editions before?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then I apologize since I clearly misunderstood. We could all try for general civility, though, if we're going to retrod some well worn ground (again)
 
In other news: with regards to the Lyanna/app debate: we've had it 1001 times before but I have to agree with something J.Star said which is that "we simply don't know" isn't a very good answer to why Lyanna as the name or just the general app are wrong. It being Lyanna's name on his lips makes sense given the relationship of RL as a whole--whether it was a consensual relationship or not. The app just seems to confirm what a good portion of readers suspect--that there is something much larger between R and L and the details of that are coming at some point in GRRM's story.


The app doesn't confirm anything. The app just states something.

 
As mentioned before, although particular Robert B. and some other characters profess that to be the case, it actually isn't the reason for Rhaegar's death.
 
Rhaegar died, because

- Rhaegar was so stupid in his noble and chivalrous way of agreeing to fight Robert in single combat, (some fans propose he even dismounted), instead of crushing the robellion by the sheer force of his numbers in a much greater army.


Probably shouldn't have tried to cross a river then if he wanted to use his numerical advantage as all he ended up doing is bottlenecking his army in the ford. Rhaegar was inept, not noble and chivalrous at the Trident. That's why he's dead. Because he wasn't good enough.

 
Wait, I thought you would champion the main books as canon, not the world book (or the app).  
 
And how do we know the 1 yr old children Rhaella birthed was by Aerys? He certainly had doubt that Rhaella was being faithful, leading him to lock her up in Maegor's Holdfast, ordering septas to sleep in her bed.  This same Aerys, who some believed, declare Viserys as the heir to the throne.
 
See? I can nitpick too. 
 
I guess only when it serves to undermine Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's true parents? Oh the irony.  :dunno:


Well then do we know that Rhaegar is Aerys son? Because Rhaella actually was in love with another man around the time of his birth

A maester wouldn't know that Arianne and Gerold Dayne had slept together, for example.

The app is a combination is summarized info from the books, and additional statements by GRRM. Some are completely new info, some are clearifications on several issues. In a year or so, some of those statements might be outdated. We've seen such an example already. We've also seen an example of a reveal of info in the app, which only later was revealed in a reading, and even more later in a book. It can go both ways. Still, if there is nothing that contradicts the statement, why not accept it? It is the same as an SSM, GRRM night change his mind in the (near) future. Or not. But when he does, the app will be changed accordingly (as we've seen).

I don't see a reason to not believe this particular statement in the app, where the others are believed.
It 'killed' a small theory of mine (I originally speculated Rhaegar's dying word was 'Visenya', for the daughter he had started the war for, thus basically started a war for, but whom he'd never meet).. so be it. I can't say I mind much.. nor should I, imo.

In addition, that Rhaegar's last word before he died was 'Lyanna', doesn't mean he had a child with Lyanna :)


It's not the same as an SSM. An SSM means that George actually said something. Hence So Spake Martin. Because he said it. There's no proof that George said anything that's stated in the app beyond the possibility that it came up during Ran's lunch with him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rhaegar didn't leave his wife and children in Jaime's hands. He specifically told Jaime to stick by Aerys' side when he left.

Throw in that Aerys called Elia and the children from the safer position at Dragonstone back to the Red Keep as some assurance against the Dornish. And that in the quote you gave it sounds like Rhaegar is worried about Aerys--even wants Jaime to stay close to "reassure" Aerys' and his fears. Seems like Rhaegar would have plenty of cause to worry.

 

Aerys did send Viserys and Rhaella to Dragonstone, not Elia and her kids--jerk! Seems like Rhaegar had plenty of reason to worry about Elia and the kids. From multiple angles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A maester wouldn't know that Arianne and Gerold Dayne had slept together, for example.

The app is a combination is summarized info from the books, and additional statements by GRRM. Some are completely new info, some are clearifications on several issues. In a year or so, some of those statements might be outdated. We've seen such an example already. We've also seen an example of a reveal of info in the app, which only later was revealed in a reading, and even more later in a book. It can go both ways. Still, if there is nothing that contradicts the statement, why not accept it? It is the same as an SSM, GRRM night change his mind in the (near) future. Or not. But when he does, the app will be changed accordingly (as we've seen).

I don't see a reason to not believe this particular statement in the app, where the others are believed.
It 'killed' a small theory of mine (I originally speculated Rhaegar's dying word was 'Visenya', for the daughter he had started the war for, thus basically started a war for, but whom he'd never meet).. so be it. I can't say I mind much.. nor should I, imo.

In addition, that Rhaegar's last word before he died was 'Lyanna', doesn't mean he had a child with Lyanna :)


Pretty cool theory. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not the same as an SSM. An SSM means that George actually said something. Hence So Spake Martin. Because he said it. There's no proof that George said anything that's stated in the app beyond the possibility that it came up during Ran's lunch with him.

Lots of questions were asked and answered. And, according to Ran, GRRM reviewed the text, as I quoted a few pages back (emphasize mine):

It is semi-canon. It contains material contributions from GRRM, and its text was reviewed by him. That said, it is not fully canon because GRRM reserves the right to change details noted in the app when he actually sits down to publish the details in the course of the novels. As a notable example,, his vision of the relationship of Bloodraven to what happened in Maekar's reign changed substantially when he sat down and wrote his contributions for the world book, and we'll be getting the app corrected in that regard.
 
Whether he is likely to change details noted in the app regarding Lyanna when he finally publishes the novels, I couldn't tell you, but I am doubtful.


In addition, stuff like notes from readings and such count as SSMs. Ran placing GRRMs answers and clarifications in the app is, in my opinion, not much different. When people send in their reports on questions they asked and had answered, do you question those reports as well?

I think, if it isn't stated in the books, it is something GRRM clarified or an answer to a question which he had been asked. We know there were many questions, IIRC, Ran spoke about that in either the wiki thread, the most recent ToJ thread, or the RLJ thread that was active at the time (don't recall the number).

If you think there is a mistake, though, you can always ask in the corresponding thread. I can't look up the link for you atm, but it is in the world of ice and fire subforum. Typing 'A World of Ice and Fire update site:asoiaf.Westeros.org' in google usually gives it as the first or second result. If you think you saw a mistake, or find the wording confusing, that's the best place to be, I think.


Pretty cool theory. :)

Thank you :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 
Wait, I thought you would champion the main books as canon, not the world book (or the app).  
 
And how do we know the 1 yr old children Rhaella birthed was by Aerys? He certainly had doubt that Rhaella was being faithful, leading him to lock her up in Maegor's Holdfast, ordering septas to sleep in her bed.  This same Aerys, who some believed, declare Viserys as the heir to the throne.
 
See? I can nitpick too. 
 
I guess only when it serves to undermine Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's true parents? Oh the irony.  :dunno:

Hold yuh horses there partner.Dont presume to know what I think of the World book.You didn't ask me, so dont speak for me.If I remember correctly I said the books are canon, not the app.

It was my understanding George wrote a large portion of the WB.I don't know which part so in light of that I give it a bit more leeway.

Please ask a question before you see fit to do something like the above.Clarification helps.Also, this is a work of fiction and I know some people's emotions are tied to certain outcomes. I'M not one of them.Therefore, no need or desire to undermine a fictional character.

Im simply asking why the other kids stated in the WB weren't included in the count for this "revelation"

Well if you are going to doubt Aerys as the father drop Rhaegar and Dany in the mix.Rhaegar could be Hasty's Rhaella could have given Aerys horn like no tommorrow.

I mean its up to you what you wanna doubt and how much.What floats your boat.

Ok hold on to idea that the app is Canon. ...You'll see soon enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of questions were asked and answered. And, according to Ran, GRRM reviewed the text, as I quoted a few pages back (emphasize mine):


In addition, stuff like notes from readings and such count as SSMs. Ran placing GRRMs answers and clarifications in the app is, in my opinion, not much different. When people send in their reports on questions they asked and had answered, do you question those reports as well?


No because they're actually saying that George said that particular piece of information. Nowhere does it say that George said any particular thing in the app. The authority of things in the app stems from George having maybe answered that question and maybe having given that answer during his and Ran's lunch. There's absolutely nothing saying any one detail though came from George and Ran's lunch. So we have no idea where information in the app that's not found in the books comes from. You are simply assuming that it must have come up.

I think, if it isn't stated in the books, it is something GRRM clarified or an answer to a question which he had been asked. We know there were many questions, IIRC, Ran spoke about that in either the wiki thread, the most recent ToJ thread, or the RLJ thread that was active at the time (don't recall the number).


You mean the thread where Ran said that he put in the app that Lyanna died at the tower of joy because many years earlier he'd received a family tree from George's assistant saying she did? As in that Ran put a piece of information not found in the books and that didn't come from his and George's lunch into the app without consulting George during their lunch to see if it was still true?

I'm not doubting that that family tree exists and that Ran had a basis for putting it in (or at least thought he still did) but we got told in that TOJ thread that something was put into the app that didn't come from Ran and George's sit down and didn't explicitly come from the books. Which is my entire point about this is that we have no idea if any information found in the app came from Ran's lunch with George which is what Ran said was the basis for the authority of the information in the app. We know that the Lyanna entry didn't come from their lunch.

So if we know that there's confirmed an entry that had no basis from their lunch why believe that anything else must have come from George specifically having said that during their lunch to clarify things? The TOJ thread proved my point that we have no idea where any of the information found in the app came from. The Lyanna entry did have a basis for it but it turned out to be something that was not what the app entries were supposedly based on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[mod] Cut out the comments about water boarding people and suchlike. You are discussing a fantasy series, try and remember that before saying things like "we should water board xyz." I don't care if you were joking, that type of comment will not be tolerated in future. [/mod]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A maester wouldn't know that Arianne and Gerold Dayne had slept together, for example.

The app is a combination is summarized info from the books, and additional statements by GRRM. Some are completely new info, some are clearifications on several issues. In a year or so, some of those statements might be outdated. We've seen such an example already. We've also seen an example of a reveal of info in the app, which only later was revealed in a reading, and even more later in a book. It can go both ways. Still, if there is nothing that contradicts the statement, why not accept it? It is the same as an SSM, GRRM night change his mind in the (near) future. Or not. But when he does, the app will be changed accordingly (as we've seen).

I don't see a reason to not believe this particular statement in the app, where the others are believed.
It 'killed' a small theory of mine (I originally speculated Rhaegar's dying word was 'Visenya', for the daughter he had basically started a war for, but whom he'd never meet).. so be it. I can't say I mind much.. nor should I, imo.

In addition, that Rhaegar's last word before he died was 'Lyanna', doesn't mean he had a child with Lyanna :)

Edit: accidentally repeated half a sentence within that sentence

Sense contradicts it!!!!! If someone is telling me its a sunny day and i see raindrops falling from the sky then i'm probably not going to accept it willy nilly.Likewise if Rhaegar's chest got caved in with a warhammer wielded by a huge man with a bit of emotion amidst a chaotic battle scene happening all around them.Then i'm farless likely to believe that the above occured when it was suppose to happen in verse.

 

Now Dany's vision is personal,it was for her and thus its possible for her as a looker cutting through all the chaos to hear a name whisphered.Its kind of a verbal to vision Rhaegar turning and looking at her.

 

You are right Rhaegar saying Lyanna doesn't mean he had a child with her nor that he was in love with her. I'm simply pointing out ( and i'm speaking as if i believe the app is canon) IF he did say her name we can't be sure of the context in which Rhaegar said it based on 

 

"he would die with Lyanna's name on his lips."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sense contradicts it!!!!! If someone is telling me its a sunny day and i see raindrops falling from the sky then i'm probably not going to accept it willy nilly.Likewise if Rhaegar's chest got caved in with a warhammer wielded by a huge man with a bit of emotion amidst a chaotic battle scene happening all around them.Then i'm farless likely to believe that the above occured when it was suppose to happen in verse.
 
Now Dany's vision is personal,it was for her and thus its possible for her as a looker cutting through all the chaos to hear a name whisphered.Its kind of a verbal to vision Rhaegar turning and looking at her.


Of course we also have Robert saying this

Rhaegar Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet.


Robert says he watched Rhaegar die yet Robert makes no mention of Rhaegar having said anything as Rhaegar was dying. Which as you point out makes sense given that Robert had just crushed Rhaegar's chest in and shouldn't even be able to physically talk.

The vision is in all likelihood just a vision. It never actually happened. It serves a literary purpose but not a historical one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Conversations about canon are useless, but there's no reason to disrespect Elio (and LInda). They work hard to keep this place up and running, a place you frequent to discuss your feelings on novels. Try some respect for them in their house, yeah?

I didn't come up with forum god, someone else did upthread.

ETA: nevermind, I didn't see your other post, sorry!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I don't think that's the question we should be asking. I posted the entry from the app and everyone is just glossing over the context. He could have said Lyanna's name but again what was the context,tone,emotion behind it.That we don't know.

 

I also second Black Crow....Blame the bloody singers.

 

The app is not canon!!!!! Furthermore it is written from a biased in universe POV. JStar it is not realistic or likely given what that war hammer did that  Rhaegar could utter a word with a caved in chest or that anyone could hear him whispher anything to report back to a Maester.Its all romanticism being employed.

Wait a minute i don't get this Rhaegella and Aerys had children that lived to see their first year just like Aegon why are they excluded?

 

Naturally. People aren't arguing about the context, which is probably why it's not being addressed, for the most part. It's not the issue.

 

All of the people listed outlived Rhaegar. Dany and Jon were yet to be born, the former yet to be conceived. Maybe I'm mistaken, and "We are all just waiting for the seventh" is a reference to the Stranger and not Jon. Or maybe those two aren't mutually exclusive. I don't believe that Rhaegar's rubies are just rubies though. Do you? If so, why are they repeatedly brought up? Don't you think it's a bit coincidental that, in real life, the Black Prince's Ruby is one of the Crown Jewels of England? Not only that, but it's front and center on the English Crown.

 

It seems like the historians aren't completely sure why Edward of Woodstock is called the Black Prince, but one of the theories is that it's because he had a suit of black armor. So, black armor and a famous ruby.

 

"the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.” - AGoT, Eddard I

 

“The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast.” - AGoT, Eddard XV

 

“The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate.” - AFfC, Jaime I

 

 

Wait, I thought you would champion the main books as canon, not the world book (or the app).  

 

And how do we know the 1 yr old children Rhaella birthed was by Aerys? He certainly had doubt that Rhaella was being faithful, leading him to lock her up in Maegor's Holdfast, ordering septas to sleep in her bed.  This same Aerys, who some believed, declare Viserys as the heir to the throne.

 

See? I can nitpick too. 

 

I guess only when it serves to undermine Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's true parents? Oh the irony.  :dunno:

 

Exactly.

 

Maybe it never actually happened. It's a vision, not a memory.


Why do you assume that because the app says so that that information came from George when there's zero proof that it did?


If no one asks about the entry being a mistake, it obviously wouldn't get corrected if it was now would it? My latest edition of AGOT still has spelling mistakes, does that mean that they're not mistakes because they were never corrected in the editions before?

 

What's up MarkG with a proxy IP?

 

This is what I think. Or at least, no one else in universe is aware that he died with that name on his lips. Shouldn't he have had his helmet on in the first place? Whether it was vision or memory, I don't think it makes a difference. It's all information.

 

If you're not going to answer my question, why should I answer yours?

 

Please ask a question before you see fit to do something like the above.Clarification helps.Also, this is a work of fiction and I know some people's emotions are tied to certain outcomes. I'M not one of them.Therefore, no need or desire to undermine a fictional character.

 

Yeah right.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Naturally. People aren't arguing about the context, which is probably why it's not being addressed, for the most part. It's not the issue.

 

All of the people listed outlived Rhaegar. Dany and Jon were yet to be born, the former yet to be conceived. Maybe I'm mistaken, and "We are all just waiting for the seventh" is a reference to the Stranger and not Jon. Or maybe those two aren't mutually exclusive. I don't believe that Rhaegar's rubies are just rubies though. Do you? If so, why are they repeatedly brought up? Don't you think it's a bit coincidental that, in real life, the Black Prince's Ruby is one of the Crown Jewels of England? Not only that, but it's front and center on the English Crown.

 

A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is.” That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them.

 

Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death.

 

What do your fires show?”
“The same, I fear. Only snow.”
...
I am seeing skulls. And you. I see your face every time I look into the flames...”
 
Gilly gave him a puzzled look. “Did you only sing of six gods? Craster always told us you southrons had seven.”
“Seven,” he agreed, “but no one sings of the Stranger.” The Stranger’s face was the face of death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Another thing that stuck out to me regarding Rhaegars love for Lyanna is something that Jaime said, (he hasn't said anything about what he knows, but certainly does), Robert did what he did for a pretty face, pretty much devaluing the "nobility" of HIS love.
The unspoken is the juxtaposition of why Rhaegar did it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is possible to see if Ran can comment on whether GRRM specifically said that Lyanna was the name that was on Rhaegar's lips in the vision in the House of the Undying that Dany watches? or to see if GRRM said specifically that Rhaegar actually said "Lyanna" when he died? It would be nice to know which question was really being asked.

 

 

Edit: Spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is possible to see if Ran can comment on whether GRRM specifically said that Lyanna was the name that was on Rhaegar's lips in the vision in the House of the Undying that Dany watches? or to see if GRRM said specifically that Rhaegar actually said "Lyanna" when he died? It would be nice to know which question was really being asked.

 

 

Edit: Spelling

 

You can probably ask in this thread: [url=http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/105115-world-of-ice-and-fire-app-update/page-21]The World of Ice and Fire App Update[/url].

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×