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HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

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Just because you say something isn't exclusive and discriminatory doesn't make it so.


You're right my saying so doesn't make it so, but my years of experience on these boards and with these mods tell me it's not.
If you have a complaint the best way to deal with it is pm a mod or Ran or Linda, not by making accusations

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Why is it that this thread is pinned but the A + J = T thread is not? Seems exclusive and discriminatory to me.

 

Because this theory has merit. 

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Whether there was a marriage or not isn't critical for people concluding that the child was actually Lyanna's - anyone who knew Ned Stark's character would have found the bastard story doubtful, and pretty much everybody apparently knew that Lyanna was with Rhaegar for a rather long time.
 
But if Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually known be married then Ned could not possibly have passed Jon Snow as Lyanna's bastard since he would have been born in wedlock. But Lyanna's bastard wouldn't have really been a threat to Robert.

Except, for most people in Westeros, and certainly for those in rebel-held territory, the first they see or hear of Jon is after Ned's trip to Starfall. The trip fuels the rumors that Jon is Ashara's child, and I suspect that's the purpose of the trip. Dawn could be returned at any time, but a cover story was needed and Ned knew it.

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Rhaenys,

 

well, I guess Ned made him his bastard and tried to obscure when exactly the child was born so that people do not suspect just that. Making the boy his bastard rather than Lyanna's makes it clear that he didn't want people to know he was Lyanna's son. Whether there was a marriage or not isn't critical for people concluding that the child was actually Lyanna's - anyone who knew Ned Stark's character would have found the bastard story doubtful, and pretty much everybody apparently knew that Lyanna was with Rhaegar for a rather long time.

 

But if Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually known be married then Ned could not possibly have passed Jon Snow as Lyanna's bastard since he would have been born in wedlock. But Lyanna's bastard wouldn't have really been a threat to Robert.

But Lyanna, especially a feverish Lyanna, might have worried Robert could be a threat to Jon. Can't think of anything in text that says the promises Lyanna extracted from Ned were reasonable. Just that Ned's paid a price to keep them.

 

And, given how Ned remembers the promise in multiple situations, seems like he might have tried to do whatever she asked, regardless of reasonability. I don't want to go so far as to say the "promise me Ned" works as a trump card in all situations, but I can't see the cover story as innately working as proof of marriage of any sort. Think Ned would have done what Lya asked, regardless of Jon's legitimacy. Including hiding Jon's true parentage.

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The godswoods at KL that Sansa was praying in, did Egg do that for his queen, Betha Blackwood?
The reason I ask was there was a question as to how and why they came to be there.

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I was reading the Arthur + Lyanna = Jon essay over at the Last Hearth. Has anybody else here seen this? It makes some interesting points, mostly stuff I've seen brought up before, as well as a couple of new things. There's also some fairly weak arguments put forth, imo. Overall I'd say it's not that great. But I'm not sure if the blame can really be placed on the author, since there's really not a lot hinting at AD+L=J.

 

Anyway, one of the big problems with AD+L=J is, if it's true why keep it a secret? What's the big deal? I'm not sure there is a satisfactory answer to that question. Here is what Superunknown5 offered up:

 


 

I don't think this is a very good explanation, since having Ned declare that Jon was Arthur and Lyanna's would severely damage the credibility of any attempt to claim he was Rhaegar's. I'm not really sure how you get around that either. In fact, it reminds me of the discussions I've been a part of about the potential problem with Jon pressing a Targaryen claim, since Ned has already claimed him as his own bastard. Add in the testimony of Howland Reed and anyone else who knew that AD+L=J, and I just don't see how this is supposed to be a problem.

 

Some person: But Rhaegar kidnapped her!

 

Ned: Yeah, with Arthur Dayne and a few others.

 

Some other person: But the baby has Valyrian looks!

 

Ned: Yeah, so do some of the Daynes. Listen, he's Arthur and Lyanna's child. I swear it to the old gods and the new.

 

Howland Reed: Me too.

 

Problem solved.

 

Further, it seems like Ned is haunted by the truth of Jon's parentage, not a hypothetical misunderstanding. "And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." - AGoT, Eddard VIII. This secret, that Arthur Dayne is Jon's father, would not be dangerous on its own. It's only dangerous if Jon looks like one of the Daynes who looked somewhat like a Targaryen. And we know by the time of AGoT that Jon looks like a Stark. So the entire reason for this secret being so dangerous has disappeared. In fact, this would have long been obvious by 298AC.

 

One thing that occurred to me while reading this is that, assuming RLJ is true, AD+L=J is a pretty good cover story in case the baby ends up looking Targaryen. So why didn't Ned go that route? Among other reasons, I can't imagine Ned Stark besmirching the honor of Ser Arthur Dayne with such a lie. Ned took the slight to his honor upon himself. "He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." - AGoT, Eddard I.

Alright, did my homework, and don't really know what to say. The observations on white vs black cloaks are nice (though hardly novel), comparison of characters, too, but none of this points to Arthur being the father. 

 

Furthermore, there is a lot of ignoring context and pieces of information scattered through the series. For instance, it is easy to dismiss Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" as an erroneous, non-insider conclusion, but "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" was mentioned as early as AGOT. And then we have the HotU vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips - which woman then, if he was not the one involved with Lyanna, and only "fond of" Elia? Should we keep dismissing these pieces of information because "Barristan the Unreliable"? Why do we then keep getting bits of information all pointing in the same direction? 

 

Another rather problematic part is that Arthur is supposed to be melancholic like Rhaegar. However, this is rather unsupported. There has been no mention of Arthur's personality, and the two specific instances when he is depicted as sad (the ToJ scene and Jaime's weirwood dream) both deal with vows. The ToJ fight happens because the KG swore a vow. In the dream, Arthur responds to Brienne's "I swore an oath to keep him safe, a holy oath" with "we all swore oaths". I doubt that it is a coincidence that the bolded corresponds to the core of the KG vow, and being sworn to an unworthy king is definitely a sufficient source of sadness for an honourable man (and the same goes for being forced to fight another honourable man because of the vows). 

 

All in all: a lot of general parallels but zero specific proof, or at least a hint, of Arthur being involved with Lyanna. 

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I never thought about R+L=J while reading the books, but  when I read the thread I just realized, collecting all the pieces from Ned's POVs, that made sense and had to be true. I'm now pretty sure it is, and if it is true I wonder how Ned felt about Rhaegar knowing that he truly loved Lyanna and he was loved in return. 

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Furthermore, there is a lot of ignoring context and pieces of information scattered through the series. For instance, it is easy to dismiss Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" as an erroneous, non-insider conclusion, but "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" was mentioned as early as AGOT. And then we have the HotU vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips - which woman then, if he was not the one involved with Lyanna, and only "fond of" Elia? Should we keep dismissing these pieces of information because "Barristan the Unreliable"? Why do we then keep getting bits of information all pointing in the same direction?


Funny because I'd say that this is an example of ignoring context as Barristan is the source for both the "Rhaegar was fond of Elia", and "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" quotes. Hard to exactly call him unbiased here as the two quotes only make sense if Barristan believes both to be true. If Barristan believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna then of course he would believe that he also didn't love Elia.

This is a case where you won't have one without the other.

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Funny because I'd say that this is an example of ignoring context as Barristan is the source for both the "Rhaegar was fond of Elia", and "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" quotes. Hard to exactly call him unbiased here as the two quotes only make sense if Barristan believes both to be true. If Barristan believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna then of course he would believe that he also didn't love Elia.

This is a case where you won't have one without the other.

:rolleyes:

...yeah, and all that JonCon "Elia wasn't good enough for Rhaegar" and Kevan's "Elia couldn't give him sons" are there just for shits and giggles. Apparently. Also, Barristan somehow projected his false belief to Viserys who fed them to Dany - oh, wait, he wasn't there yet. How funny.

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Alia,

 

I think tradition demanded that there was a godswood at every big castle, and the Targaryens - while followers of the Seven, at least officially back in Aegon's days - also ruled over the North. Thus I guess they had no problem showing some respect and include a godswood into the Red Keep. Especially since the Starks actually bent the knee willingly, unlike the Ironborn.

 

It is an interesting question whether Betha Blackwood or even Bloodraven actually followed the old gods while they were at court. But even if Betha did, I'm pretty sure Egg brought up his children in the Faith of the Seven, especially his sons, considering that they would one day be anointed and crowned by the High Septon. Considering Bloodraven's character I'm pretty sure he was no religious man at all.

 

SFDanny,

 

the trip to Starfall clearly was part of the 'Ned's bastard' story - or perhaps Ned only concocted that story once he had reached Starfall (you know, perhaps the child wasn't even at the tower when Ned went there) with the help of the Daynes. But if pretty much everyone knew that Lyanna was married to Rhaegar it was already clear that her child couldn't be her bastard, so that possibility never was an option. But it would be if nobody knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married besides the guys at the tower.

 

Robert believing Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar does exclude him from also knowing they were married. Jeyne is married to Ramsay, too, yet he is also clearly raping her, and Jon actually may be motivated by similar feelings as Robert and Ned when he sent Mance to save 'Arya', and subsequently gets himself into a war/feud with House Bolton that gets him killed like Brandon and Rickard were killed.

 

Sly Wren,

 

could be. But then, we don't really know yet what the promise was about, nor can we be sure that Ned would stick to 'Lyanna's feverish threat assessment' and keep the boy's actual parentage a secret from everybody. Say, if Jon had been Lyanna's bastard, and she may have feared that he would still be considered a pretender to the throne, then Ned surely could have eventually told the truth about that to his beloved wife. And if Lyanna's marriage to Rhaegar was still a complete secret fifteen years later then obviously Ned Stark succeeded in controlling the knowledge. In that case, too, there would have been no harm in revealing the truth to at least Catelyn - he could have told her the lie that Jon was Lyanna's bastard, keeping the truth about the marriage from her, and claiming that he only made the boy his bastard to keep shame from his beloved sister's memory - especially in light of how much Robert had loved her life. That would have worked perfectly fine.

 

Not to mention that it is difficult to imagine that Lyanna was terribly afraid of Robert while she was dying - while there is a possibility that the news about the death of Rhaegar, Aerys, and Rhaegar's other family reached her in time, it is quite unlikely that she got all the gruesome details. But even if she did - Aerys, Elia, and her children were murdered by the Lannisters, not Robert. Robert only slew Rhaegar in battle. And even if we go with the assumption that Robert developed some powerful Targaryen hatred during the war - Lyanna could not have possibly known anything about that especially since Robert only had the chance of expressing that hatred once, when he confronted Rhaegar.

 

Ned most certainly would not have fed Lyanna any ideas that Robert may be a danger to her child while she was dying. The man couldn't even tell Robert the truth about his children when he was dying...

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I never thought about R+L=J while reading the books, but  when I read the thread I just realized, collecting all the pieces from Ned's POVs, that made sense and had to be true. I'm now pretty sure it is, and if it is true I wonder how Ned felt about Rhaegar knowing that he truly loved Lyanna and he was loved in return. 

 

i think we have a hint as to how Ned felt toward Rhaegar. After visiting the brothel and seeing Robert's bastard daughter, Ned thinks about Rhaegar and wonders if he (Rhaegar) ever frequented brothels. Somehow, Ned thought not. Now, there is really no way for Ned to know whether or not Rhaegar did visit brothels but when comparing Rhaegar to Robert, the latter being his best friend, Ned comes down with the idea that Rhaegar was more honorable, by virtue of not visiting brothels. Furthermore, whenever Robert tears into Rhaegar as a rapist, Ned stays oddly silent. While Ned may not have loved Rhaegar or anything, I think it's clear that he considered Rhaegar an honorable man and doesn't hold a grudge.

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I just need to get something out of my chest. I know it has nothing to do with the current debate, so sorry for that.

Why, why couldn't Jon be a musician, like his father? That would have been so awesome :(

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I just need to get something out of my chest. I know it has nothing to do with the current debate, so sorry for that.

Why, why couldn't Jon be a musician, like his father? That would have been so awesome :(

 

It would have been cool but also likely would give away the whole shebang.

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Alright, did my homework, and don't really know what to say. The observations on white vs black cloaks are nice (though hardly novel), comparison of characters, too, but none of this points to Arthur being the father. 
 
Furthermore, there is a lot of ignoring context and pieces of information scattered through the series. For instance, it is easy to dismiss Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" as an erroneous, non-insider conclusion, but "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" was mentioned as early as AGOT. And then we have the HotU vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips - which woman then, if he was not the one involved with Lyanna, and only "fond of" Elia? Should we keep dismissing these pieces of information because "Barristan the Unreliable"? Why do we then keep getting bits of information all pointing in the same direction? 
 
Another rather problematic part is that Arthur is supposed to be melancholic like Rhaegar. However, this is rather unsupported. There has been no mention of Arthur's personality, and the two specific instances when he is depicted as sad (the ToJ scene and Jaime's weirwood dream) both deal with vows. The ToJ fight happens because the KG swore a vow. In the dream, Arthur responds to Brienne's "I swore an oath to keep him safe, a holy oath" with "we all swore oaths". I doubt that it is a coincidence that the bolded corresponds to the core of the KG vow, and being sworn to an unworthy king is definitely a sufficient source of sadness for an honourable man (and the same goes for being forced to fight another honourable man because of the vows). 
 
All in all: a lot of general parallels but zero specific proof, or at least a hint, of Arthur being involved with Lyanna. 


Agree 100%. I also don't get people who say Selmy is unreliable.
My sense is that Martin deliberately chose the character to filter events, and while he wasn't an intimate player, (not that he would want to be), it sounds as though Rhaegar trusted him on some level, then at some point shut Selmy out, but what he didn't know first hand, I think he was smart enough to figure out.

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It would have been cool but also likely would give away the whole shebang.


He could play something other than the harp. A guitar. A violin. Or just a flute...

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He could play something other than the harp. A guitar. A violin. Or just a flute...

 

Picturing Jon Snow playing his flute on the Wall is rather hilarious. :)

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Alia,
 
I think tradition demanded that there was a godswood at every big castle, and the Targaryens - while followers of the Seven, at least officially back in Aegon's days - also ruled over the North. Thus I guess they had no problem showing some respect and include a godswood into the Red Keep. Especially since the Starks actually bent the knee willingly, unlike the Ironborn.
 
It is an interesting question whether Betha Blackwood or even Bloodraven actually followed the old gods while they were at court. But even if Betha did, I'm pretty sure Egg brought up his children in the Faith of the Seven, especially his sons, considering that they would one day be anointed and crowned by the High Septon. Considering Bloodraven's character I'm pretty sure he was no religious man at all.
[quote]

Okay, thanks!

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BQ87,

 

I don't think we can draw all that much from Ned's thought about Rhaegar not visiting brothers besides that fact. Visiting brothels is perfectly fine for the male nobility in Westeros unless you are lunatic like Stannis or an over-pious zealot. Ned clearly likes Robert despite the fact that Robert frequented brothels. I'd agree that Ned thinks of Rhaegar that he would neither have frequented brothels nor made empty promises to a poor whore who gave birth to his bastard. But this doesn't mean that Rhaegar would not cheat on his lawful wife, and take a mistress or paramour if he fell in love with another woman. Nor does it mean that he wouldn't go to great lengths to take a woman he wanted.

 

My guess is that Ned felt more or less the same about Rhaegar than Robert did - until he met his dying sister. The way all the Stark brothers reacted to the crowning at Harrenhal makes that clear. Posthumously, Ned may have changed his mind about Rhaegar somewhat, but I'd be very surprised if he thought positively about him during the war. If that had been the case he could have tried to end the rebellion.

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