Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

Recommended Posts

I just need to get something out of my chest. I know it has nothing to do with the current debate, so sorry for that.

Why, why couldn't Jon be a musician, like his father? That would have been so awesome :(

Agree with BQ, if he did initially, it would given everything away.
And it's not as if northern guys didn't follow artistic pursuits like that- look at Ramseys first son who sounded like a northern Rhaegar.

Maybe later, Jon will pick up an instrument or sing as if he was born to it. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BQ87,

 

I don't think we can draw all that much from Ned's thought about Rhaegar not visiting brothers besides that fact. Visiting brothels is perfectly fine for the male nobility in Westeros unless you are lunatic like Stannis or an over-pious zealot. Ned clearly likes Robert despite the fact that Robert frequented brothels. I'd agree that Ned thinks of Rhaegar that he would neither have frequented brothels nor made empty promises to a poor whore who gave birth to his bastard. But this doesn't mean that Rhaegar would not cheat on his lawful wife, and take a mistress or paramour if he fell in love with another woman. Nor does it mean that he wouldn't go to great lengths to take a woman he wanted.

 

My guess is that Ned felt more or less the same about Rhaegar than Robert did - until he met his dying sister. The way all the Stark brothers reacted to the crowning at Harrenhal makes that clear.

 

It's perfectly fine for the males of Westeros, except Ned. That's not how Ned operates because it goes against his rather high standard code. In Ned's head, visiting a brothel, while the norm, isn't honorable. So when Ned compares the man who supposedly abducted his sister to his best friend and sides with his sister's rapist as being more honorable (based on Ned's own internal criteria) then yeah, we can definitely draw something from it. And like I said, Ned has absolutely no way of knowing if Rhaegar would frequent brothels--Rhaegar might have for all we know. But Ned's perception is that Rhaegar did not.

 

 

I have no doubt that Ned felt the same way about Rhaegar that Robert did until he met his dying sister. But since the Brothel moment in question is after Lyanna's death, then I don't get your point or why his previous feelings are relevant. 14 years later he feels differently about Rhaegar than he did following HH until the ToJ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just need to get something out of my chest. I know it has nothing to do with the current debate, so sorry for that.

Why, why couldn't Jon be a musician, like his father? That would have been so awesome :(


The first time he picks up a harp he is gonna shred it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agree 100%. I also don't get people who say Selmy is unreliable.
My sense is that Martin deliberately chose the character to filter events, and while he wasn't an intimate player, (not that he would want to be), it sounds as though Rhaegar trusted him on some level, then at some point shut Selmy out, but what he didn't know first hand, I think he was smart enough to figure out.

Aye. Barry is a PoV character - why have him muse about something he has no idea about, and which doesn't contradict things from other PoVs? That doesn't make any sense. Furthermore, while not being privy to Rhaegar's plans, he still was a first-hand witness to a lot that took place at the court. So, while it is sensible to take his information with a grain of salt, it shouldn't be dismissed completely.

 

He could play something other than the harp. A guitar. A violin. Or just a flute...

As far as I can remember, none of Ned's sons was taught music. I wonder whether this may have been on purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alia,

 

I think tradition demanded that there was a godswood at every big castle, and the Targaryens - while followers of the Seven, at least officially back in Aegon's days - also ruled over the North. Thus I guess they had no problem showing some respect and include a godswood into the Red Keep. Especially since the Starks actually bent the knee willingly, unlike the Ironborn.

 

It is an interesting question whether Betha Blackwood or even Bloodraven actually followed the old gods while they were at court. But even if Betha did, I'm pretty sure Egg brought up his children in the Faith of the Seven, especially his sons, considering that they would one day be anointed and crowned by the High Septon. Considering Bloodraven's character I'm pretty sure he was no religious man at all.

 

SFDanny,

 

the trip to Starfall clearly was part of the 'Ned's bastard' story - or perhaps Ned only concocted that story once he had reached Starfall (you know, perhaps the child wasn't even at the tower when Ned went there) with the help of the Daynes. But if pretty much everyone knew that Lyanna was married to Rhaegar it was already clear that her child couldn't be her bastard, so that possibility never was an option. But it would be if nobody knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married besides the guys at the tower.

 

Robert believing Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar does exclude him from also knowing they were married. Jeyne is married to Ramsay, too, yet he is also clearly raping her, and Jon actually may be motivated by similar feelings as Robert and Ned when he sent Mance to save 'Arya', and subsequently gets himself into a war/feud with House Bolton that gets him killed like Brandon and Rickard were killed.

 

Sly Wren,

 

could be. But then, we don't really know yet what the promise was about, nor can we be sure that Ned would stick to 'Lyanna's feverish threat assessment' and keep the boy's actual parentage a secret from everybody. Say, if Jon had been Lyanna's bastard, and she may have feared that he would still be considered a pretender to the throne, then Ned surely could have eventually told the truth about that to his beloved wife. And if Lyanna's marriage to Rhaegar was still a complete secret fifteen years later then obviously Ned Stark succeeded in controlling the knowledge. In that case, too, there would have been no harm in revealing the truth to at least Catelyn - he could have told her the lie that Jon was Lyanna's bastard, keeping the truth about the marriage from her, and claiming that he only made the boy his bastard to keep shame from his beloved sister's memory - especially in light of how much Robert had loved her life. That would have worked perfectly fine.

 

Not to mention that it is difficult to imagine that Lyanna was terribly afraid of Robert while she was dying - while there is a possibility that the news about the death of Rhaegar, Aerys, and Rhaegar's other family reached her in time, it is quite unlikely that she got all the gruesome details. But even if she did - Aerys, Elia, and her children were murdered by the Lannisters, not Robert. Robert only slew Rhaegar in battle. And even if we go with the assumption that Robert developed some powerful Targaryen hatred during the war - Lyanna could not have possibly known anything about that especially since Robert only had the chance of expressing that hatred once, when he confronted Rhaegar.

 

Ned most certainly would not have fed Lyanna any ideas that Robert may be a danger to her child while she was dying. The man couldn't even tell Robert the truth about his children when he was dying...

 

LV, what do you think was the source of the fear Ned sees in Lyanna's eyes? I don't see it as fear of her own death because the fear goes out of her eyes when Ned promises something to her. My best guess is that it IS the fear of what Robert will do to her child. Not only that, but she isn't certain her own brother won't turn her child over to his best friend and new king as part of his duty to him. At least until Ned pledges to raise her child as his own.

 

I also don't agree that Robert's hatred of the Targaryens is something he developed in the war. More likely, to me anyway, is his hatred of all things Targaryen stems from Rhaegar's "kidnapping" and "raping" of what is his by right. This is a burning question of personal dishonor to Robert that Rhaegar thinks he can take what is his, and in this way he is no different that some of his ancestors. This is a fight for property and for his rights as a high lord. It's the same with Brandon except her brother might actually know Lyanna's feelings and care about them to at least a minimal degree. Robert's passion is enflamed both for Lyanna, and in his hatred of the Targaryens by his view of his ownership of his idealized mental picture of the woman.

 

As a consequence, I don't think the danger to Jon from Robert comes whether or not Jon is a bastard or the legitimate son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It comes from a pathological hatred of people Robert thinks have no respect for his rights. A son of Rhaegar, especially one conceived on Robert's own "property", would have to die. Anyone, including Ned, who hid such dragonspawn from him would be a traitor and they and theirs would be in danger as well. In danger to the "back of beyond" as Ned puts it.

 

I actually have come to believe it likely that Ned thinks of Jon as Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard son. I think the reading of the chapter where Ned thinks upon Rhaegar not frequenting brothels points to this. No doubt it can be read different ways, but I think this is the more simple and straightforward meaning of that part of the story. Of course, that doesn't mean Ned is correct in his belief Jon is a bastard. I think what we know of Lyanna's character and of Rhaegar's need to recreate Aegon and his sisters points to a marriage, but a secret one that Lyanna doesn't get the time or feel the urgency to to tell Ned about as she lays dying.

 

To your point about, Jon may not have been at the tower when Ned arrives, I argued this with Ran, Mormont, and others long ago, but my position has stayed the same. Yes, it is possible, but I think it is very unlikely that all three Kingsguard stay at the tower if Rhaegar's child needs guarding. That they are all there tells me it is likely Jon is there. No way to be sure, of course, but I think the clues point in the other direction.

 

Part of that old debate stemmed from a belief that a child traveling with a member of the Kingsguard, even in loyalist held territory was more vulnerable to discovery. And to a certain degree that is true, but I think Ser Barristan's ability to disguise himself after his dismissal shows us that the Kingsguard doesn't always have to travel dressed in their white cloaks announcing who they are. If the safety of one of the "blood" is concerned a more subtle approach is allowed.

 

Also concerning the public nature or not of a wedding between Lyanna and Rhaegar, I think it is in their interest to not announce this until necessary. By marrying again, without the king's permission, they would place themselves as usurpers of Aerys's right as both a king and as a father. If one thinks the reaction of Tywin to Tyrion's marriage, or even of Hoster's to the Blackfish's refusal to marry were extreme, I don't think mad Aerys would be any less angry about such an act. Think he hated mixing the "blood of the dragon" with the Dornish? Just wait until he finds out about a marriage to tree-worshipping northerners. The desperate plan of Lyanna and Rhaegar seems to me to have been to hide from both Aerys and Rickard until a child is born making a dissolution unlikely. My guess anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:rolleyes:
...yeah, and all that JonCon "Elia wasn't good enough for Rhaegar" and Kevan's "Elia couldn't give him sons" are there just for shits and giggles. Apparently. Also, Barristan somehow projected his false belief to Viserys who fed them to Dany - oh, wait, he wasn't there yet. How funny.


I never said there's nothing else in the books. I said you can't take Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" without first acknowledging that Barristan already said "I know the prince was very fond of her" when asked if Rhaegar loved Elia or married her for duty. Barristan already told us that Rhaegar didn't love his wife. Of course he's going to think that Rhaegar therefore loved Lyanna if he went and kidnapped her and fought a war over her with her betrothed.

It doesn't mean that "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" might not be true. It just means that you can't ignore the context which is that Barristan already believes that Rhaegar didn't love his wife. Barristan might know that Rhaegar actually loved Lyanna or he might just think that Rhaegar must have loved Lyanna seeing as he didn't love Elia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 
i think we have a hint as to how Ned felt toward Rhaegar. After visiting the brothel and seeing Robert's bastard daughter, Ned thinks about Rhaegar and wonders if he (Rhaegar) ever frequented brothels. Somehow, Ned thought not. Now, there is really no way for Ned to know whether or not Rhaegar did visit brothels but when comparing Rhaegar to Robert, the latter being his best friend, Ned comes down with the idea that Rhaegar was more honorable, by virtue of not visiting brothels. Furthermore, whenever Robert tears into Rhaegar as a rapist, Ned stays oddly silent. While Ned may not have loved Rhaegar or anything, I think it's clear that he considered Rhaegar an honorable man and doesn't hold a grudge.


For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.


There's absolutely nothing here saying that Ned thought Rhaegar didn't visit brothels because he was too honorable to do so. Ned just says he didn't think he would without giving us the reason why. There's plenty of reasons why someone wouldn't frequent brothels that have nothing to do with being too honorable to sleep with a whore. Given that Rhaegar was an introverted person I'd say it's far more likely that Ned thinks that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels because he'd probably have felt uncomfortable in them.

And there's no reason to think that Ned came away thinking Rhaegar was more honorable than Robert by virtue of the fact that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels (if he even didn't, Ned doesn't know). We have Ned's opinion of how honorable Robert could be

Lord Renly shrugged. "The matter seems simple enough to me. We ought to have had Viserys and his sister killed years ago, but His Grace my brother made the mistake of listening to Jon Arryn."

"Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, 'I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds."


Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy.


The reborn Kingdom of the Iron Isles had lasted less than a year. Yet when Balon Greyjoy was brought before King Robert in chains, the ironman remained defiant. "You may take my head," he told the king, "but you cannot name me traitor. No Greyjoy ever swore an oath to a Baratheon." Robert Baratheon, ever merciful, is said to have laughed at that, for he liked spirit in a man, even in his foes. "Swear one now," he replied, "or lose that stubborn head of yours." And so Balon Greyjoy bent his knee and was allowed to live, after giving up his last surviving son as a hostage to his loyalty.


Not frequenting brothels vs offering mercy to your enemies because they fought bravely or were loyal. Hard to see how Ned could ever come away thinking that Rhaegar was more honorable than Robert just because Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel. If Ned thinks Rhaegar is more honorable than Robert, which there's no proof of, it's not because he thinks Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's absolutely nothing here saying that Ned thought Rhaegar didn't visit brothels because he was too honorable to do so. Ned just says he didn't think he would without giving us the reason why. There's plenty of reasons why someone wouldn't frequent brothels that have nothing to do with being too honorable to sleep with a whore. Given that Rhaegar was an introverted person I'd say it's far more likely that Ned thinks that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels because he'd probably have felt uncomfortable in them.

And there's no reason to think that Ned came away thinking Rhaegar was more honorable than Robert by virtue of the fact that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels (if he even didn't, Ned doesn't know). We have Ned's opinion of how honorable Robert could be




Not frequenting brothels vs offering mercy to your enemies because they fought bravely or were loyal. Hard to see how Ned could ever come away thinking that Rhaegar was more honorable than Robert just because Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel. If Ned thinks Rhaegar is more honorable than Robert, which there's no proof of, it's not because he thinks Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel.

I think this is something that has always crept in the back of my mind regarding a brothel, and his overall nature, but it is my personal opinion that the comparison to Robert on fidelity is what the allusion is Which is another reason I tend towards Rhaegar acting on an ultimatum from Lyanna and set Elia aside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question on Ramsey capturing Lady Hornwood, whatever happened to her lands?


I think the lands have gone to the Boltons. IIRC, in ADwD, Manderly mentions that Tywin offered White Harbour a full pardon. Manderly had to pay a ransom for his son and prove his loyalty and Roose as warden required Manderly to give up his claim to the Hornwood lands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's absolutely nothing here saying that Ned thought Rhaegar didn't visit brothels because he was too honorable to do so. Ned just says he didn't think he would without giving us the reason why. There's plenty of reasons why someone wouldn't frequent brothels that have nothing to do with being too honorable to sleep with a whore. Given that Rhaegar was an introverted person I'd say it's far more likely that Ned thinks that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels because he'd probably have felt uncomfortable in them.

And there's no reason to think that Ned came away thinking Rhaegar was more honorable than Robert by virtue of the fact that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels (if he even didn't, Ned doesn't know). We have Ned's opinion of how honorable Robert could be

Not frequenting brothels vs offering mercy to your enemies because they fought bravely or were loyal. Hard to see how Ned could ever come away thinking that Rhaegar was more honorable than Robert just because Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel. If Ned thinks Rhaegar is more honorable than Robert, which there's no proof of, it's not because he thinks Rhaegar wouldn't go to a brothel.

I do think we're supposed to note the comment--Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar in years? Why on earth not? 

 

But I agree that the comment is so brief it's hard to extrapolate much. Plus, the context is all about the messes Robert has made. Ned's cut up by Barra's mother asking him to please tell the king she's waiting for him. Annoyed at Littlefinger's comments about Robert's bastards. And speculation on why Arryn was poking around. About why/how Arryn died. Ned seems to be thinking about the mess Robert has made of things. I've thought that might be a possible way to read the line--Ned's so done at this point he's thinking, "not even Rhaegar would be as stupid as Robert." 

 

And, given that Ned hasn't been thinking about Rhaegar with any degree of frequency or regularity (why on earth not?), really think this is more about his disillusionment re: Robert than a praise of Rhaegar. Saying Rhaegar was better than Robert in one way at this moment in Ned's head seems like very faint praise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He could play something other than the harp. A guitar. A violin. Or just a flute...

 

 

Picturing Jon Snow playing his flute on the Wall is rather hilarious. :)

Okay, you two are geniuses. 

 

Jon's the Piper that was Promised.

 

"Music has charms to soothe the savage beast/breast"--what's more savage than the Others and their wights? And possibly ice-spiders? Prophecy solved.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, did my homework, and don't really know what to say. The observations on white vs black cloaks are nice (though hardly novel), comparison of characters, too, but none of this points to Arthur being the father. 

 

Furthermore, there is a lot of ignoring context and pieces of information scattered through the series. For instance, it is easy to dismiss Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it" as an erroneous, non-insider conclusion, but "Rhaegar died for the woman he loved" was mentioned as early as AGOT. And then we have the HotU vision of Rhaegar dying with a woman's name on his lips - which woman then, if he was not the one involved with Lyanna, and only "fond of" Elia? Should we keep dismissing these pieces of information because "Barristan the Unreliable"? Why do we then keep getting bits of information all pointing in the same direction? 

 

Another rather problematic part is that Arthur is supposed to be melancholic like Rhaegar. However, this is rather unsupported. There has been no mention of Arthur's personality, and the two specific instances when he is depicted as sad (the ToJ scene and Jaime's weirwood dream) both deal with vows. The ToJ fight happens because the KG swore a vow. In the dream, Arthur responds to Brienne's "I swore an oath to keep him safe, a holy oath" with "we all swore oaths". I doubt that it is a coincidence that the bolded corresponds to the core of the KG vow, and being sworn to an unworthy king is definitely a sufficient source of sadness for an honourable man (and the same goes for being forced to fight another honourable man because of the vows). 

 

All in all: a lot of general parallels but zero specific proof, or at least a hint, of Arthur being involved with Lyanna. 

I do not buy that Arthur is Jon's father but Ygrain i think you are the one that is ignoring context a bit i think.I see this many times with regards to Rhaegar and his so call love for Lyanna which is a conclusion reached incorrectly by characters based on the idea that he kidnapped her so he must have loved her that's it and there is proof of that.

 

These "are" non insider conclusions every single one of them.

 

Let's look at Selmy's quote in context and in its entiriety.

 

"Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. Her love for Daario is poison."

 

 

This statement by Selmy concerning Rheagar is not one of intimate knowledge its a wallpaper on history of westeros when it comes to men who loved women and they did stupid things.....This was the story after the fact.His conclusions about Elia and Rhaegar's relationship is in the same vein.Rhaegar's actions toward Lyanna were seemingly grandiose so he must have loved her.

 

Non insider conclusion.

 

Here's another:

 

"How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly." .......Non insider conclusion

 

 

"Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes."

 

This is a romanticized story......Non insider conclusion.

 

Based on Jamie's last conversation with Rhaegar a woman had nothing to with.

 

Ygrain,nobody .....Nobody,not Selmy,Jamie,JonCon or Viserys can repeat or has repeated any statement from Rhaegar concerning Lyanna and for a "love" so strong thousands died for it,that is a big hint that it is false.

 

This is a big negative against that, NO ONE in 5 books who had conversations with Rhaegar can give us any statement by him about Lyanna.Anything,anything at all,there's nothing there supporting that Rhaegar loved Lyanna or that there existed mutual love between the two.

 

Conclusions about Rhaegar's feelings concerning Lyanna are  based soley on him crowning her QOLAB and the idea that he ran off with her and we should tread carefully with these info because they are ALL unreliable.

 

 

I don't know what information "you" are getting but the one i'm getting doesn't look like Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna.I'm getting that in a time where people romanticized everything into song and stories Rhaegar's actions toward Lyanna was seen by most at the Tourney in that stream.He took her from another man because he loved her sooooo much.

 

As far as him dying with a woman's name on his lips i see no reason why it couldn't be Elia.There's actually a tidbit from a Dragon dream that Dany had that i think points to romatic feelings for Elia. I'll have to find it though.

 

Edit: Typo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A question on Ramsey capturing Lady Hornwood, whatever happened to her lands?

One of the letters send around in Dance had Ramsay sign as Lord of Hornwood. So he got to keep the lands, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's look at Selmy's quote in context and in its entiriety.

 

"Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. Her love for Daario is poison."

 

This statement by Selmy concerning Rheagar is not one of intimate knowledge its a wallpaper on history of westeros when it comes to men who loved women and they did stupid things.....This was the story after the fact.His conclusions about Elia and Rhaegar's relationship is in the same vein.Rhaegar's actions toward Lyanna were seemingly grandiose so he must have loved her.

 

Non insider conclusion.

 

Here's another:

 

"How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly." .......Non insider conclusion

 

"Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes."

 

This is a romanticized story......Non insider conclusion.

:agree:

I agree. All the info we've gotten re: Rhaegar and Lyanna is not from those who seem like they might have known. Or who give evidence of knowledge. And those who would be in a position to know are either dead or missing. So these accounts need to be taken with a big grain of salt.

 

But I do think the lack of alternate narrative is also telling--Dany's learning about alternate versions of the history Viserys gave her. Arya's learned there's a bit of Stark family history in Dorne of all places, info that Jon has yearned for. And info that disturbs Arya. Martin not only shows us gaps and unreliability of history--he provides some alternatives.

 

But for a story that is seen as one of the excuses for a huge rebellion--no alternatives have come forth. The gaps are HUGE re: what exactly happened and why. And no one seems to suspect a child (which is odd). But there's also no hint at an alternative history.

 

Granted, this is hardly an iron-clad argument. Again, all the people who might know about an alternative are dead or missing. And it's completely possible that Martin is letting the gaps serve as his pointer that an alternative narrative re: Rhaegar and Lyanna is possible. The gaps are certainly big enough. And people like to romanticize about tragedy--R+L gives plenty of romance to the tragedy. But still--no alternative in the collective consciousness of Westeros? About such a big war? Seems a bit odd.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On the issue of Selmy:

I think a lot of the fandom didn't like, or want to accept Selmy's information, so they wrote him off in order to create their own narrative.

And given that much of it is his own inner monologue, he is his own audience, what is he proving in lying to himself?
In an artificial environment, Martin's writing of Selmy is deliberate.

I'll grant that Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been conflicted. I'll speculate that they may have even been in conflict initially. But I think the very detailed analogy on "mud" and the point he was trying to make may have also applied to Rhaegar and the fact that he should have "chose" Elia the way Dany should have chose Elias nephew rather than the dangerous choices both Rhaegar and Dany made.

On Rhaegars last words, Martin confirmed it was Lyanna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the issue of Selmy:

I think a lot of the fandom didn't like, or want to accept Selmy's information, so they wrote him off in order to create their own narrative.

And given that much of it is his own inner monologue, he is his own audience, what is he proving in lying to himself?
As a work of fiction, Martin's writing of this is deliberate.

I'll grant that that they May have been conflicted. I'll speculate even that Lyanna may have pushed him away, but I think the very detailed analogy on "mud" and the point he was trying to make may have also applied to Rhaegar and the fact that he should have "chose"Elia the way Dany should have chose Elias nephew instead of the dangerous choices.

On Rhaegars last words, Martin confirmed it was Lyanna.

Can you provide the link to that SSM?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading some not so insightful theories/essays...

 

Seriously, Eddard is not the father. The end. The outline confirms it, why even bother with such theories where he is suppose to be the father? An exercise in futility? Proving some new philosophical point or path?

 

...on some other pastures and not this forum, reminds me of this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkpIUZOtrfY

 

 

 

 

 

TWOW needs to come out soon or we'll all go mad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reading some not so insightful theories/essays...

 

Seriously, Eddard is not the father. The end. The outline confirms it, why even bother with such theories where he is suppose to be the father? An exercise in futility? Proving some new philosophical point or path?

 

...on some other pastures and not this forum, reminds me of this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkpIUZOtrfY

 

 

 

 

 

TWOW needs to come out soon or we'll all go mad.

You know you could actually critique the theory where it is actually being discussed instead of making snarky comments about it on here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the issue of Selmy:

I think a lot of the fandom didn't like, or want to accept Selmy's information, so they wrote him off in order to create their own narrative.

And given that much of it is his own inner monologue, he is his own audience, what is he proving in lying to himself?
As a work of fiction, Martin's writing of this is deliberate.

I'll grant that that they May have been conflicted. I'll speculate even that Lyanna may have pushed him away, but I think the very detailed analogy on "mud" and the point he was trying to make may have also applied to Rhaegar and the fact that he should have "chose"Elia the way Dany should have chose Elias nephew instead of the dangerous choices.

On Rhaegars last words, Martin confirmed it was Lyanna.

I fully admit to being part of the fandom.

 

But I can't see how doubting Selmy's ability to have direct knowledge of his statements in any way undermines the possibility the Rhaegar is Jon's father.

 

Can't see where in the text it says Selmy knows anything re: Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance from his own first-hand knowledge. Rhaegar and Co. disappear. Then war. When Rhaegar gets back to King's Landing, he mentions nothing re: Lyanna to Jaime--but that's not all that surprising. Then R goes to the Trident. Then R gets dead. Maybe R and Selmy had a heart to heart before the Trident, but the text doesn't tell us that. Does tell us Selmy thinks Rhaegar never confided in him as R did to Arthur.

 

Text does tell us Selmy knew Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna. And that Selmy thought Rhaegar was a good guy. And that he thought Rhaegar was "fond" of Elia (tactful, but opens things up).

 

Makes sense that Selmy would put all of that together with the accusation that R took L (evidence of accusation in the first place to be determined) and assume Rhaegar loved Lyanna. And it's a completely reasonable conclusion. But doesn't imply Selmy had direct knowledge. Or that he's right.

 

Without Selmy's giving the readers his direct evidence, seems like there's a reasonable reason to doubt that he's right. At least for now. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×