Wow I Never Noticed That V.12

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Not sure i know what one is but I think we know a night-walker the woman with the mask who keeps appearing to danny in dreams and in projection seemingly using one of the obsedian candles (cant remember her name)

Her name is Quaithe. Find her in ACoK Dany I, II, III, ASoS Dany I, III, ADwD Dany II, V, VII, VII, X.

The bolded are her appearances, the other chapters Dany remembers her.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Not sure i know what one is but I think we know a night-walker the woman with the mask who keeps appearing to danny in dreams and in projection seemingly using one of the obsedian candles (cant remember her name)

My theory is that night-walkers are astral travellers. Bran (and Bloodraven) performed one when he was in coma. He basically saw the whole world while flying(falling?) from the sky.

Urrathon is a night-walker and he has glass candles. Obviously Quaithe got them too.

Whatever... I think we all agree that they can pop up wherever they want.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

This one is absolutely blatant, and yet I never noticed.

In ASoS 59 Sansa IV bloody bridegroom king Joffrey takes his one new gift, the valyrian sword Widow's Wail -- we know it is the lesser part of the valyrian greatsword Ice -- and hacks apart a rare book, a gift of his uncle Tyrion's: "Lives of Four Kings". Next chapter, Tyrion remembers the scene:

The more he thought about what Joff had done to Lives of Four Kings, the more it troubled him. There was a message there, oh yes.

ASoS 60 Tyrion VIII

And I finally got it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I am definitely not in the Aegon is the son of Rhaegar camp, but here's a little nugget for those of you whom Varys has hoodwinked along with Jon Connington...

"Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen's father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin's fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child."

Arya III, Game 32

Perhaps this is an allusion by the George where Varys is the cat and the quail is baby Aegon?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am definitely not in the Aegon is the son of Rhaegar camp, but here's a little nugget for those of you whom Varys has hoodwinked along with Jon Connington...

Arya III, Game 32

Perhaps this is an allusion by the George where Varys is the cat and the quail is baby Aegon?

Heh, cool. :D

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

I didn't notice until my most recent re-read of A Clash of Kings that Varys actually admits to Tyrion that he rescued Gendry by getting him to Yoren before the Gold Cloaks could find him. This makes me suspect he was also the fat lord in a purple cloak described by Tobo Motte as having paid for Gendry's apprenticeship in A Game of Thrones. Which all raises the question, why is Varys so concerned with one (and only one) of Robert's bastards? Varys specifically tells Ned that he's no hero, and that he won't risk his life or his position at court to help him, yet he risks both for one bastard boy? He certainly didn't go out of his way to save any or Robert's other bastards, what makes Gendry so special? I'm working on a theory but evidence of anything when it comes to Varys is almost non-existent. I just hope that, while it may be a rather minor matter in terms if the overall story, it's one of those small mysteries GRRM finds time to answer in a satisfying manner.

[Isobel Harper]

I didn't notice until my most recent re-read of A Clash of Kings that Varys actually admits to Tyrion that he rescued Gendry by getting him to Yoren before the Gold Cloaks could find him. This makes me suspect he was also the fat lord in a purple cloak described by Tobo Motte as having paid for Gendry's apprenticeship in A Game of Thrones. Which all raises the question, why is Varys so concerned with one (and only one) of Robert's bastards? Varys specifically tells Ned that he's no hero, and that he won't risk his life or his position at court to help him, yet he risks both for one bastard boy? He certainly didn't go out of his way to save any or Robert's other bastards, what makes Gendry so special? I'm working on a theory but evidence of anything when it comes to Varys is almost non-existent. I just hope that, while it may be a rather minor matter in terms if the overall story, it's one of those small mysteries GRRM finds time to answer in a satisfying manner.

Varys also sent presents to Edric Storm every year for his nameday, in the appearance of it having been Robert. In my opinion, I believe that Edric and Gendry are a backup plan if the plot with Aegon should fail, ie if Aegon should die. More or less, Varys and Illyrio are up to their old tricks: selling something back for a price.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I didn't notice until my most recent re-read of A Clash of Kings that Varys actually admits to Tyrion that he rescued Gendry by getting him to Yoren before the Gold Cloaks could find him. This makes me suspect he was also the fat lord in a purple cloak described by Tobo Motte as having paid for Gendry's apprenticeship in A Game of Thrones. Which all raises the question, why is Varys so concerned with one (and only one) of Robert's bastards? Varys specifically tells Ned that he's no hero, and that he won't risk his life or his position at court to help him, yet he risks both for one bastard boy? He certainly didn't go out of his way to save any or Robert's other bastards, what makes Gendry so special? I'm working on a theory but evidence of anything when it comes to Varys is almost non-existent. I just hope that, while it may be a rather minor matter in terms if the overall story, it's one of those small mysteries GRRM finds time to answer in a satisfying manner.

Varys kept tabs on all of Robert's bastards. He didna think Barra was at risk. When Aegon and Drogo were ready, Viserys would have been given an offer he couldn't refuse and Varys would have prompted Cersei's assassination of Robert. Varys would have then paraded the bastards in front of the realm to instigate a succession crisis. Fortunately, the bastards were spreadabout the realm alleviating the need for an actual parade. And I strongly suspect that The Ned had a hand (no pun intended) in sending Gendry to the Night's Watch. Acting as a go-between for Cersei and The Ned, who was imprisoned in the Black Cells, Varys negotiated an agreement that would have The Ned confess to treason and support Joffrey's right to rule. Varys wanted to stabilize the realm to allow more time for Illyrio's preparations. (It should be noted that Petyr counseled Cersei, offering to wed Sansa, which Cersei refused.) To force The Ned's acquiescence, Cersei threatened to execute Sansa. In exchange for Lord Eddard's acquiescence, his daughter Sansa would have remained in Kings Landing but she would have been treated gently (although Robb, as the new Lord of Winterfell with an army in the field below the Neck, probably would have been able to secure her release). Rather than losing his head, The Ned was to join the Night's Watch. Based on his promise to King Robert, it appeared that he also might have attempted to secure the safety of Gendry.

[Avlonnic]

I didn't notice until my most recent re-read of A Clash of Kings that Varys actually admits to Tyrion that he rescued Gendry by getting him to Yoren before the Gold Cloaks could find him. This makes me suspect he was also the fat lord in a purple cloak described by Tobo Motte as having paid for Gendry's apprenticeship in A Game of Thrones. Which all raises the question, why is Varys so concerned with one (and only one) of Robert's bastards? Varys specifically tells Ned that he's no hero, and that he won't risk his life or his position at court to help him, yet he risks both for one bastard boy? He certainly didn't go out of his way to save any or Robert's other bastards, what makes Gendry so special? I'm working on a theory but evidence of anything when it comes to Varys is almost non-existent. I just hope that, while it may be a rather minor matter in terms if the overall story, it's one of those small mysteries GRRM finds time to answer in a satisfying manner.

Robert had 16 children with probably 15 different mothers. Varys did provide gifts for Edric Storm (under the guise of their being from Robert.) so Gendry wasn't the only one. However, Gendry was in King's Landing where Varys had access to him. Mya was away in the Vale. The remainder were likely difficult/impossible to identify or were too young to be impactful.

It is worth asking why Gendry, in particular, was treated differently. It is notable that he was placed with Tobo Motte, one of the few people alive who know how to rework Valyrian steel. We don't know who Gendry's mother was (he thinks she worked in an alehouse and then died.) By the time he was apprenticed to Motte, Gendry looked enough like Robert to confirm any suspicions and he was old enough that all three of Cersei's blond-haired, green-eyed babies should have been born. Varys should have learned from his 'mice' that Jaime and Cersei were having trysts.

Also, Varys purports to despise magic but Illyrio calls him a wizard - so perhaps he was invested in keeping some 'king's blood' around for whatever reason. Ugh. More likely, Varys hoped someone like Stannis or Arryn would discover the truth about Cersei/Jaime's offspring, creating a crisis in the kingdom at some point...and an opening for the return of Targaryen rule that Varys desires.

[RoamingRonin]

Varys also sent presents to Edric Storm every year for his nameday, in the appearance of it having been Robert. In my opinion, I believe that Edric and Gendry are a backup plan if the plot with Aegon should fail, ie if Aegon should die. More or less, Varys and Illyrio are up to their old tricks: selling something back for a price.

Varys was going to instigate a war by revealing Cersei's bastards. This would have destabilized the realm and paved the way for Aegon. Except he never had to because Littlefinger began his own separate plot which led to the TWO5k.

It could be Littlefinger interferred with Varys' plot.

[The Dames do Moan]

Maybe it should be in moments of foreshadowing but the search function isn't working right now so ya'll will have to suffer it.

Noticed today during ACOK Catelyn said to Brienne, probably been brought up many times but:

I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Maybe it should be in moments of foreshadowing but the search function isn't working right now so ya'll will have to suffer it.

Noticed today during ACOK Catelyn said to Brienne, probably been brought up many times but:

Well... I don't see how Brienne can be Cersei's valonqar... OOOOH! How about Cersei kicks Jaime out of the Kingsguard and Brienne marries Jaime? Then, by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, Brienne would be Cersei's little sister, and Brienne would have taken, arguably, all Cersei holds dear. ;)

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Robert had 16 children with probably 15 different mothers. Varys did provide gifts for Edric Storm (under the guise of their being from Robert.) so Gendry wasn't the only one. However, Gendry was in King's Landing where Varys had access to him. Mya was away in the Vale. The remainder were likely difficult/impossible to identify or were too young to be impactful.

It is worth asking why Gendry, in particular, was treated differently. It is notable that he was placed with Tobo Motte, one of the few people alive who know how to rework Valyrian steel. We don't know who Gendry's mother was (he thinks she worked in an alehouse and then died.) By the time he was apprenticed to Motte, Gendry looked enough like Robert to confirm any suspicions and he was old enough that all three of Cersei's blond-haired, green-eyed babies should have been born. Varys should have learned from his 'mice' that Jaime and Cersei were having trysts.

Also, Varys purports to despise magic but Illyrio calls him a wizard - so perhaps he was invested in keeping some 'king's blood' around for whatever reason. Ugh. More likely, Varys hoped someone like Stannis or Arryn would discover the truth about Cersei/Jaime's offspring, creating a crisis in the kingdom at some point...and an opening for the return of Targaryen rule that Varys desires.

Giving gifts is one thing, I could even see Robert having delegated that off as one of Varys's duties, to keep tabs on his bastards and take care of their needs. However keeping one a secret in the shadow of the Red Keep is an entirely different matter. He made no such effort for Baby Barra knowing full well what Lannisters do to babies.

If it were just about having proof of twincest, any old bastard would do, and Edric Storm or Mya Stone are already much safer options for Varys, he doesn't have to do much of anything to keep them safe. He risks everything for Gendry specifically. There has to be something that Gendry gives him that he needs to help Aegon. I was thinking maybe that Gendry was Varys's plan for how to deal with the power vacuum in the Stormlands once Aegon takes power, after all if you're going to kill off all the stormlords, you're going to need a new compliant stormlord to support your claim. However that doesn't seem important enough for the risk involved and again Edric might be the best candidate. Unless Gendry's mother wasn't just a tavern wench after all, that could change many things. Without proof, I know it's crackpot, but I'm still looking.

[The Dames do Moan]

Well... I don't see how Brienne can be Cersei's valonqar... OOOOH! How about Cersei kicks Jaime out of the Kingsguard and Brienne marries Jaime? Then, by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, Brienne would be Cersei's little sister, and Brienne would have taken, arguably, all Cersei holds dear. ;)

Brienne didn't say it, Catelyn said it to Brienne, so Catelyn pretty much just described the Valonqar prophecy 2 books before we got it. I don't neccasarily think the valonqar is actually going to be Cat though.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Giving gifts is one thing, I could even see Robert having delegated that off as one of Varys's duties, to keep tabs on his bastards and take care of their needs. However keeping one a secret in the shadow of the Red Keep is an entirely different matter. He made no such effort for Baby Barra knowing full well what Lannisters do to babies.

If it were just about having proof of twincest, any old bastard would do, and Edric Storm or Mya Stone are already much safer options for Varys, he doesn't have to do much of anything to keep them safe. He risks everything for Gendry specifically. There has to be something that Gendry gives him that he needs to help Aegon. I was thinking maybe that Gendry was Varys's plan for how to deal with the power vacuum in the Stormlands once Aegon takes power, after all if you're going to kill off all the stormlords, you're going to need a new compliant stormlord to support your claim. However that doesn't seem important enough for the risk involved and again Edric might be the best candidate. Unless Gendry's mother wasn't just a tavern wench after all, that could change many things. Without proof, I know it's crackpot, but I'm still looking.

The more bastards Varys can produce, the more believable his claim becomes.

And Gendry was the only one in direct danger. He was in KL, in Cersei's reach, and a male.. The girl in KL was believed to be out of danger..

[Avlonnic]

Maybe it should be in moments of foreshadowing but the search function isn't working right now so ya'll will have to suffer it.

Noticed today during ACOK Catelyn said to Brienne, probably been brought up many times but:

Quote

Wicked. It would appear that Lady Stoneheart and Jaime are going to meet shortly so perhaps this is something she sends him to do...although I've no idea what incentive she could use to coerce him into such action. He already thinks Tommen and Myrcella have lost too much (grandfather, brother, 'father') for them to suffer losing their mother as well. Jaime's arc is now about trying to reform himself from the 'kingslaying' legacy to something more honorable...which would not include kinslaying. Stoneheart would need some kind of powerful leverage - because I don't think Jaime is afraid to die rather than do whatever she demands.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well... I don't see how Brienne can be Cersei's valonqar... OOOOH! How about Cersei kicks Jaime out of the Kingsguard and Brienne marries Jaime? Then, by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, Brienne would be Cersei's little sister, and Brienne would have taken, arguably, all Cersei holds dear. ;)

The valonqar is supposed to be male.. So no Brienne...

[Jon Weirgaryen]

The valonqar is supposed to be male.. So no Brienne...

Hmm, and I thought GRRM makes many a point about the absurdity of making such a fuss about that little difference... ;)

... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful ... Brienne!

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hmm, and I thought GRRM makes many a point about the absurdity of making such a fuss about that little difference... ;)

... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful ... Brienne!

No doubt in my mind.

[The Dames do Moan]

Wicked. It would appear that Lady Stoneheart and Jaime are going to meet shortly so perhaps this is something she sends him to do...although I've no idea what incentive she could use to coerce him into such action. He already thinks Tommen and Myrcella have lost too much (grandfather, brother, 'father') for them to suffer losing their mother as well. Jaime's arc is now about trying to reform himself from the 'kingslaying' legacy to something more honorable...which would not include kinslaying. Stoneheart would need some kind of powerful leverage - because I don't think Jaime is afraid to die rather than do whatever she demands.

Yeah, I didn't even think of that. For the most part I thought it was either going to be Jamie (or the YaMBQ's younger sibling). LS could somehow remember her thoughts about that quote she had or Brienne remembers and says something to Jamie. Not even that he HAS to go do it now, but that at some point he goes on his own volition and remembers them saying something and that's why he kills her that way.