Wow, I Never Noticed That v. 13

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Re-reading the Arya V chapter in Game and she describes her father:

 

He was dressed in a rich grey velvet doublet with a white wolf sewn on the front in beads.

The white wolf for some reason stuck me as odd. Made me think about Ghost.

The Lannisters dressed him in reverse Stark colors like a bastard.

[Clegane'sPup]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Lannisters dressed him in reverse Stark colors like a bastard.

Not so sure of that LM

"Bring me my doublet, if you would. The grey, with the direwolf sigil. I want this armorer to know who I am."

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Not so sure of that LM

 

 

"Bring me my doublet, if you would. The grey, with the direwolf sigil. I want this armorer to know who I am."

Hmm...

[FuzzyJAM]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

Not so sure of that LM

 

 

"Bring me my doublet, if you would. The grey, with the direwolf sigil. I want this armorer to know who I am."

I think there's something in it.  He wears bastard colours when going to see a bastard.  And again, wears them when declaring that a bastard isn't a bastard.

I don't know if the characters thought of it, but I think George would have.

[Isobel Harper]

White or grey, a wolf is still a wolf.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Isobel Harper said:

White or grey, a wolf is still a wolf.

Ha!

[Stag Queen]

On 18.1.2016 at 10:43 PM, Roddy Darwin said:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com

 

On 18.1.2016 at 11:15 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

To quote type [ quote ] text [ /quote ] butwithout the spaces inside the brackets. 

As to your observation, nice! Perhaps she's preparing a mean fingerbone stew...

Thanks to both of you.

 

As for new observations, I just noticed that Stannis isn´t using his "Baratheon Stag within a red heart" sigil any more. From the wall on he uses the traditional stag and the heart seperatly.

In the Battle against the wildlings:

 

Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standarts big as sheets; a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart and an another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind 

 

Later both Banners are present at Castle Black and this line of Gilly suggests that some of Stannis´ men wear on sigil and some the other.

 

 I like those yellow ones with the fire. Look and some of the fighters have the same thing on their blouses

 

And the ribbon that Davos has with him on his Manderly Quest bear both sigils.

 

This is a long way to say; So the division between King´s men and Queen´s men is official now? Why did Stannis allow that to happen? This is like giving Melisandre her own army. (And arming the faith never goes well)

[Bastetcat]

Tywin poisoned Elia for Cersei to be Queen.

I don't know if it could be considered fact, but I think Tywin had a hand in Elias pour health.

1. We know, that it is not uncommon to poison the mother in the Targaryen history. For the mothers and the sons to die. 
2. Elia was rumored to be of not perfectly healthy, and couldn't have a third child, considering her 2 previous childbirth.

3. Rheagar grow up next to Tywin, so Tywin could know him really good. His nature, his plans on his belief in prophecy - 3 head of the dragon, the PTVP prophecy...

Than Elia become the queen and not Cercei.

 

4. Tywin bought Cercei to KL even after he had been told, no Cercei for Rheagar.

So my wtf moment was this:

Tywin planned Cercei to be wed to Rheagar even after the refusal and marriage! It has sense only, if Tywin know, she would have a chance eventually. How?
Did he know Elia wont be able to bring heirs to Rheagar? How?
Did he orders a maester (or someone else) to poison Elia, so she would die after/during her pregnancy('s)? Tywin ordered Pycell after all, it wouldn't be a big surprise, he had other maesters as well. KL is not safe after all, that we know.

Cercei would be the second wife to him. I am sure this was planned by Tywin.
But the plan didn't worked, as it should have. Elia survived 2 pregnancy's (she wasn't weak she was STRONG!), and Rheagar went to the "wolf girl" for second marriage interest.

I don't have any evidence, but for me it is fact. I am not saying he did poisoning, just that he is a person, whom I can imagine to have this plan. 

(Oberyn know Elia, he would know if something is amiss with Elia's health report. He for one, would have figured out what really had happened with Elia. Also if Oberyn poisoned Tywin, that could be the reason why did Oberyn choose a slow and painful poisoning method for him. Not just for Elias death, but for her slow torture...)

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Bastetcat said:

Tywin poisoned Elia for Cersei to be Queen.

I don't know if it could be considered fact, but I think Tywin had a hand in Elias pour health.

1. We know, that it is not uncommon to poison the mother in the Targaryen history. For the mothers and the sons to die. 
2. Elia was rumored to be of not perfectly healthy, and couldn't have a third child, considering her 2 previous childbirth.

3. Rheagar grow up next to Tywin, so Tywin could know him really good. His nature, his plans on his belief in prophecy - 3 head of the dragon, the PTVP prophecy...

Than Elia become the queen and not Cercei.

 

4. Tywin bought Cercei to KL even after he had been told, no Cercei for Rheagar.

So my wtf moment was this:

Tywin planned Cercei to be wed to Rheagar even after the refusal and marriage! It has sense only, if Tywin know, she would have a chance eventually. How?
Did he know Elia wont be able to bring heirs to Rheagar? How?
Did he orders a maester (or someone else) to poison Elia, so she would die after/during her pregnancy('s)? Tywin ordered Pycell after all, it wouldn't be a big surprise, he had other maesters as well. KL is not safe after all, that we know.

Cercei would be the second wife to him. I am sure this was planned by Tywin.
But the plan didn't worked, as it should have. Elia survived 2 pregnancy's (she wasn't weak she was STRONG!), and Rheagar went to the "wolf girl" for second marriage interest.

I don't have any evidence, but for me it is fact. I am not saying he did poisoning, just that he is a person, whom I can imagine to have this plan. 

(Oberyn know Elia, he would know if something is amiss with Elia's health report. He for one, would have figured out what really had happened with Elia. Also if Oberyn poisoned Tywin, that could be the reason why did Oberyn choose a slow and painful poisoning method for him. Not just for Elias death, but for her slow torture...)

 

Nice.

[Isobel Harper]

8 hours ago, Bastetcat said:

Tywin poisoned Elia for Cersei to be Queen.

I don't know if it could be considered fact, but I think Tywin had a hand in Elias pour health.

1. We know, that it is not uncommon to poison the mother in the Targaryen history. For the mothers and the sons to die. 
2. Elia was rumored to be of not perfectly healthy, and couldn't have a third child, considering her 2 previous childbirth.

3. Rheagar grow up next to Tywin, so Tywin could know him really good. His nature, his plans on his belief in prophecy - 3 head of the dragon, the PTVP prophecy...

Than Elia become the queen and not Cercei.

 

4. Tywin bought Cercei to KL even after he had been told, no Cercei for Rheagar.

So my wtf moment was this:

Tywin planned Cercei to be wed to Rheagar even after the refusal and marriage! It has sense only, if Tywin know, she would have a chance eventually. How?
Did he know Elia wont be able to bring heirs to Rheagar? How?
Did he orders a maester (or someone else) to poison Elia, so she would die after/during her pregnancy('s)? Tywin ordered Pycell after all, it wouldn't be a big surprise, he had other maesters as well. KL is not safe after all, that we know.

Cercei would be the second wife to him. I am sure this was planned by Tywin.
But the plan didn't worked, as it should have. Elia survived 2 pregnancy's (she wasn't weak she was STRONG!), and Rheagar went to the "wolf girl" for second marriage interest.

I don't have any evidence, but for me it is fact. I am not saying he did poisoning, just that he is a person, whom I can imagine to have this plan. 

(Oberyn know Elia, he would know if something is amiss with Elia's health report. He for one, would have figured out what really had happened with Elia. Also if Oberyn poisoned Tywin, that could be the reason why did Oberyn choose a slow and painful poisoning method for him. Not just for Elias death, but for her slow torture...)

 

Maesters are responsible for attending births for the noble class.  Therefore, unless Elia gave birth on Dragonstone, it's likely that Pycelle attended the birth of Rhaegar's first two children.  One alternative to this theory is not poison but some sort of intentional harm during the delivery - one that a mother or others in attendance would not note.  For example, a maester could harm a mother by pulling on the umbilical cord too roughly just enough or by intentionally not washing his hands well enough.  Death in childbirth is not uncommon in Westeros; no one would suspect a thing if Elia, a woman known to have tender health, died in childbirth.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 1/28/2016 at 10:28 AM, Bastetcat said:

 

Oops

[Lost Melnibonean]

Run Meera, Hodor. Run!

"All crows are liars." --Old Nan

"The crow's a tricksy bird." --Tormund

[Roddy Darwin]

snip

But then, if he really had any idea Elia was gonna end up as Rhaegar's wife, a much simpler plan would have been not to fuck up Joanna's plan to marry her to Jaime.

It was also a very sensible match and would have made the Martells an ally of House Lannister.

But then he's Tywin, so...

[Bastetcat]

On 2016. január 29. at 0:27 AM, Roddy Darwin said:

But then, if he really had any idea Elia was gonna end up as Rhaegar's wife, a much simpler plan would have been not to fuck up Joanna's plan to marry her to Jaime.

It was also a very sensible match and would have made the Martells an ally of House Lannister.

But then he's Tywin, so...

I am not sure Tywin know of Joanna's plan. And even is he did, he was not that great of a politician as Joanna was.

He didn't know this will be a consequence of his actions. Tywin have never seen the negative consequences of his decision, ever (or never cared. He is indestructible, because he is a Lannister. Who would stand up to HIM?)! When releasing The Mountain at Riverlands, he didn't cared what will this bring to his house IN THE LONG RUN. 

I imagine Tywin to be the victim of his own agenda. He was too proud. He believed being a Lannister is the top of the pyramid. And he believes, everyone else wants to be a Lannister, because this is the best you can become. Not queen, king, god, no... but a Lannister 

Tywin doesn't choose well with political marriage's in the future as well. He always sees the marriage from his own perspective: for ec.: thinking if he offered Jamie (his choice to be Lord of Casterly-rock) for Margery, the Tyrells could choose him instead to be a queen of Westeros (married to Tommen). Like, seriously?!

So: he made a mistake: lost the opportunity to have Cercei for queen (next to Rheagal). THEN did he made his plan to made Cercei a queen anyway.  (There was a plan, I am 100% sure, I just don't know the details of it, there is multiple possibility... Poison, mistreatment, thorough maesters, serving persons, etc... as others pointed out.)

Plan B: Cercei to be Rheagal's second wife, than when this didn't worked as well... He sacked KL, the last minute, to make Cercei queen, to the yet unmarried Robert. 

 

ETA: I believe, if Lyanna would have lived, and wed Robert after everything (I thing Robert would have married her no matter what. Lyanna wouldn't have lived long anyway. She would have got the "Elia-treatment" as well from Tywin. Of course it would have to be looked as a natural disease, or an accident, else there would be war again.)



 

[Shuvuuia]

I don't really buy the Lem is Richard Lonmouth theory, but if he is, then the Ghost of High Heart is totally trolling him and the BwB when she asks him to kiss her.

(or even if he is not, maybe she trolls the kiss of fire and Lem's refusal to believe that Beric is revived and not simply healed)

[dornishdame]

In Catelyn I in Thrones, when she comes to the Godswood, she thinks of the heart tree as a living being:

"There are darker things beyond the Wall." She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

The pale bark and red eyes sounds very Bloodraven.

[Hos the Hostage]

5 hours ago, Shuvuuia said:

I don't really buy the Lem is Richard Lonmouth theory, but if he is, then the Ghost of High Heart is totally trolling him and the BwB when she asks him to kiss her.

(or even if he is not, maybe she trolls the kiss of fire and Lem's refusal to believe that Beric is revived and not simply healed)

The fact that the Ghost asks Lem to kiss her is one of the points taken as clues supporting the Lem=Richard Lonmouth theory. While asking for the kiss, the woman says "his breath will smell of lemons, and mine of bones(skulls?)". As you know, Richard Lonmouth is the 'knight of skulls and kisses in Meera's story.

[Hos the Hostage]

On 30/1/2016 at 6:19 PM, Bastetcat said:

He didn't know this will be a consequence of his actions. Tywin have never seen the negative consequences of his decision, ever (or never cared. He is indestructible, because he is a Lannister. Who would stand up to HIM?)! When releasing The Mountain at Riverlands, he didn't cared what will this bring to his house IN THE LONG RUN. 

I imagine Tywin to be the victim of his own agenda. He was too proud. He believed being a Lannister is the top of the pyramid. And he believes, everyone else wants to be a Lannister, because this is the best you can become. Not queen, king, god, no... but a Lannister 

Ironically, I think it was Tywin who made everyone in Westeros utter the word 'Lannisters' with disgust and mistrust. In the Dunk and Egg tales, Lannisters are a respected house. Even when Tywin's father was the laughing-stock, people may not have thought bad of the whole House, only the Lord of the Rock.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

 

Quote

“The warlocks in Qarth told you that you would be betrayed three times,” the exile knight reminded her, as Viserion and Rhaegal began to snap and claw at each other. “Once for blood and once for gold and once for love.” Dany was not like to forget. “Mirri Maz Duur was the first.”

Daenerys I, Storm 8

Notice the dragons "dancing"in the background as Daenerys ponders the betrayal  for blood.

 

Quote

“These are Illyrio’s ships, Illyrio’s captains, Illyrio’s sailors … and Strong Belwas and Arstan are his men as well, not yours.”

“Magister Illyrio has protected me in the past. Strong Belwas says that he wept when he heard my brother was dead.”

“Yes,” said Mormont, “but did he weep for Viserys, or for the plans he had made with him?”

Daenerys I, Storm 8

Here, the author gives us reason to question Illyrio’s motives in "aiding" Viserys and Daenerys.

 

Quote

“His plans need not change. Magister Illyrio is a friend to House Targaryen, and wealthy …”

Daenerys I, Storm 8

A friend to House Targaryen... Oh, really? (Hey what does Illyrio said backwards sound like?)

 

Quote

“He was not born wealthy. In the world as I have seen it, no man grows rich by kindness. The warlocks said the second treason would be for gold. What does Illyrio Mopatis love more than gold?”

Daenerys I, Storm 8

Beneath the gold, the bitter steel

 

Quote

“His skin.” Across the cabin Drogon stirred restlessly, steam rising from his snout. “Mirri Maz Duur betrayed me. I burned her for it.”

“Mirri Maz Duur was in your power. In Pentos, you shall be in Illyrio’s power. It is not the same. I know the magister as well as you. He is a devious man, and clever—”

“I need clever men about me if I am to win the Iron Throne.”

Ser Jorah snorted. “That wineseller who tried to poison you was a clever man as well. Clever men hatch ambitious schemes.”

Daenerys I, Storm 8

See how we circle back to Mirri Maz Duur and the treason for blood? That Illyrio  hatched n ambitious scheme is a bit of an understatement, eh? 

Illyrio will betray Daenerys for blood, Blackfyre blood--Aegon

[Lost Melnibonean]

These woods belonged to them, the snowy slopes and stony hills, the great green pines and the golden leaf oaks, the rushing streams and blue lakes fringed with fingers of white frost. But his sister had left the wilds, to walk in the halls of man-rock where other hunters ruled, and once within those halls it was hard to find the path back out. The wolf prince remembered.

Bran I, Storm 9

I think this is a hint from the author that Sansa will not be returning to the pack. I think she's going to play Petyr's game. And I think the assassination with lemon cakes suggests that her arc will end with bitterness and disappointment.