Wow, I Never Noticed That v. 13

[tf13]

Other gifts she was given in plenty by other Dothraki: slippers and jewels and silver rings for her hair, medallion belts and painted vests and soft furs, sandsilks and jars of scent, needles and feathers and tiny bottles of purple glass, and a gown made from the skin of a thousand mice. “A handsome gift, Khaleesi,” Magister Illyrio said of the last, after he had told her what it was. "Most lucky.”

A gown made from a thousand mice? Gowns are certainly associated with weddings; and Varys is known to keep "mice", aka orphans in his service, and has also propped up "Aegon" from before the story begins. This may be the first subtle hint that Varys and Illyrio have had this match between Dany and "Aegon" in mind since the start of A Game of Thrones, especially with the way Illyrio remarks the gift as "handsome" and "lucky".

[Isobel Harper]

16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

Bran I, Storm 9

I think this is a hint from the author that Sansa will not be returning to the pack. I think she's going to play Petyr's game. And I think the assassination with lemon cakes suggests that her arc will end with bitterness and disappointment. 

I agree that lemons throughout the series symbolize truth, bitter truth.  Lemoncakes, however, are sweetened.  Sansa has a tendency to "sweeten" some truths with denial: denial (at first) about signs of Joffrey's true nature, creation of the UnKiss to soften the trauma of the BotBW-Hound scene in her memory, and soon (imo) denial about LF's involvement in Lysa's death and possible denial of his nature as well.

Book Spoiler:

Spoiler

In WoW Alayne I, Sansa appears to already be going into denial about Lysa's death, the (false) explanation of Lysa's murder via Marillion coming almost second-nature to her.  She is also beginning to trust Baelish a lot more than she did in AFfC.

Season 2 or 3 show spoiler:

Spoiler

I also believe that more happened to Sansa during the Riot of KL than she remembers, but nothing too traumatic.  Long story short, I think the show spoiled us on what really happened to Sansa that day.

As to your theory, yes.  I think Sansa, out of all the Starks, will have the most difficult time "getting home" and "returning to her pack," although I'm not sure whether her ultimate fate is to never be able to do so.  I personally think not, in some way, but creating her own "pack" and starting a cadet branch of Starks. 

[Bastetcat]

That Joramun (Horn of Joramun) sounds totally like Jorah Mo(rmo)n - is you pronounce it quickly, you actually say Joramun. I always connected the horn to the Mormonts. I may not be correct, maybe someone could see more things I don't, considering I am not native.

 

ETA: Anagram? Jorah Mormon (contains almost the same spells) Horn Joramun?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

This is the start of the Ned's chapter after he warns Cersei and before Littlefinger betrays him. Lyanna's eyes weeping blood suggests to me that death (blood) follows knowledge (what we see). So this suggests to me that Ned's discovery of the twincest will lead to his death and even that the realm will bleed, much like the realm bled after Rhaegar gave Lyanna a blue rose, which is so ironic since the reason The Ned warned Cersei was to keep the realm from bleeding the way it did during Robert's Rebellion.

[RoamingRonin]

Since Bran and Rickon were in the crypts when Theon had his dream, I like to think they influenced Theon's wolf dream. Bran influenced Jon's tree dream, after all. It seems like a childish (but disturbing) prank that the two brothers would play on their tormentor.

Also this from ASOS:

Quote

"Your Grace." Davos stepped forward. "Lady Melisandre saw it true. Your nephew Joffrey is dead."

If the king was surprised to find him at the Painted Table, he gave no sign. "Lord Davos," he said. "He was not my nephew. Though for years I believed he was."
 

BUT THEN (literally the same conversation):

Quote

"I suppose not." The king ran his fingers across the table. "Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him."

If Joffrey was not his nephew, Robert was not his father.

Good ol', Stannis.

[NorthernDirewolf]

On 2.8.2015. at 4:12 AM, The Bold Wolf said:

I never made the connection that the gravedigger was the hound until I read it on the forums. I thought he was still alive, but I just didn't notice. 

Really? I noticed it straight away. I remember when I read that he petted a dog I was like: yeah, this is Sandor 100%

Patchface totally predicted the Red Wedding, didn't realize that until I reread.

[The Bold Wolf]

53 minutes ago, NorthernDirewolf said:

Really? I noticed it straight away. I remember when I read that he petted a dog I was like: yeah, this is Sandor 100%

Patchface totally predicted the Red Wedding, didn't realize that until I reread.

Yeah, maybe it was because I was bored with Brienne's chapters that I overlooked some aspects of it. 

Possibly unrelated, but on my re-read of the series, after Ned is beheaded, Sansa wishes that someone would throw down Janos Slynt and take his head off. After I read that I got a "woah" moment. 

Also yeah GRRM tells us a few times that the red wedding is going to happen, I really liked that when I made the connections after. 

[Walda]

 

 

Quote

"I do not have the power to give you back your father, no more than Thoros does, but I can at least see that you are returned safely to your mother’s arms.”
“Do you swear?” she asked him. Yoren had promised to take her home too, only he’d gotten killed instead.
“On my honor as a knight,” the lightning lord said solemnly.

(ASoS, Ch.39 Arya VII)

And there it is, the sole purpose of Lady Stoneheart's existence, and of Lord Beric's death.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This . . . 

Salladhor Saan appeared not long after. “You must be forgiving me for the wine, my friend. These Pentoshi would drink their own water if it were purple.” 

Davos II, Storm 10

Made me think of this . . . 

Tyrion left the fat women to their loaves and kettles and went in search of the cellar where Illyrio had decanted him the night before. It was not hard to find. There was enough wine there to keep him drunk for a hundred years; sweet reds from the Reach and sour reds from Dorne, pale Pentoshi ambers, the green nectar of Myr, three score casks of Arbor gold, even wines from the fabled east, from Qarth and Yi Ti and Asshai by the Shadow. In the end, Tyrion chose a cask of strongwine marked as the private stock of Lord Runceford Redwyne, the grandfather of the present Lord of the Arbor. The taste of it was languorous and heady on the tongue, the color a purple so dark that it looked almost black in the dim-lit cellar. Tyrion filled a cup, and a flagon for good measure, and carried them up to the gardens to drink beneath those cherry trees he’d seen.

Tyrion I, Dance 1

And that made me think of this . . . 

The squire seemed nice enough to Arya; maybe a little shy, but good-natured. She had always heard that Dornishmen were small and swarthy, with black hair and small black eyes, but Ned had big blue eyes, so dark that they looked almost purple. And his hair was a pale blond, more ash than honey.

And this . . . 

"Ser Gerold Dayne had an aquiline nose, high cheekbones, a strong jaw. He kept his face clean-shaven, but his thick hair fell to his collar like a silver glacier, divided by a streak of midnight black. He has a cruel mouth, though, and a crueler tongue. His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun, sharpening his steel, but she had looked at them from a closer vantage and she knew that they were purple. Dark purple. Dark and angry.

And this . . . 

Like his sire, Young Griff had blue eyes, but where the father’s eyes were pale, the son’s were dark. By lamplight they turned black, and in the light of dusk they seemed purple. His eyelashes were as long as any woman’s.

And this . . . 

His silvery hair was blowing in the wind, and his eyes were a deep purple, darker than this boy’s.

And this . . . 

Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see.

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Walda said:

 

 

And there it is, the sole purpose of Lady Stoneheart's existence, and of Lord Beric's death.

Ah, so Beric revived Catelyn because he had sworn to return Arya to her, right? 

[Walda]

9 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Ah, so Beric revived Catelyn because he had sworn to return Arya to her, right? 

Yes. Revived Catelyn and given his seventh life in consequence. It seems a big sacrifice for a dubious end.

It is not as if Lord Beric had already completed his own mission:

Quote

ride to the westlands with all haste, to cross the Red Fork of the Trident under the king’s flag, and there bring the king’s justice to the false knight Gregor Clegane, and to all those who shared in his crimes.

(AGoT, Ch.43 Eddard XI)

Thoros at least, is still personally charged with that mission, and Harwin might have inherited accountability for completing the mission from Alyn (or Alyn might be alive and fulfilling it as Captain of Eddard Stark's Household Guard, unbeknownst to the Brotherhood). 

I'm not sure what the BWB is about. Eddard only named four men, and only charged five score with the mission, although Lord Beric remembers six marching out under the royal banners (Eddard said nothing to Lord Darry or the Blackhaven men, and positively admonished Piper and Vance, although their men were at the battle of Mummers Ford, too, and I assume had marched from Kings Landing with the rest.)

Then they lost the banners, and the battle. Eddard said nothing about being a servant of the Lord of Light, or of forming a brotherhood, or knighting recruits. Which I can see leading to all kinds of awkwardness. Like, is Edric Dayne knighted? He's only a boy, so probably too young. Is he a sworn brother? Is there an age limit on that? It seems a lot to ask a kid who only signed on as a squire, to change their religion and bond with a band of outlaws for life. A lot to ask of anyone, and yet their hideout is full of knights. The 'kill Gregor' part of their remit seems to have taken a backseat since Beric and Thoros started knighting and converting. 

So there have been some changes since the banners were lost, and Lord Beric resurrected.  I suppose it is possible that now, only Thoros is still charged with the original mission Eddard Stark gave them. Or maybe even people Gendry knights inherit the original charge of bringing the Kings Justice to Gregor Clegane and his host.

Since King Robert has died, the BWB have not just failed the core objective, they have had massive mission creep. Now they kill Lannisters generally, Brave Companions in particular, and even Northerners. Interestingly, Anguy mentions Lord Bolton's as one of the forces the BWB has attacked (ASoS, Ch.34 Arya VI) before the Red Wedding. So 'northerners' does not just mean Karstarks and renegades from Robb's host, the kind the townsfolk of Sherrer caged for their crimes, but the still embodied main host of northerners in the Riverlands. They don't seem to have identified them as opposed to Clegane, Hoat, and the Lannisters, either.    

I'm not sure Lady Stoneheart inherited the mission to kill Clegane from Dondarrion, or the fulfilment of his promise to Arya, along with the leadership of the Brotherhood. Altogether, resurrection doesn't seem to be compatible with focused leadership and corporate memory.  Lady Stoneheart seems more interested in killing Roose Bolton, killing anyone involved in the Red Wedding, and nevermind the smallfolk of Sherrer and the Kings Justice. 

She seems to be covering some territory, as well. She retrieved Robb's crown from somewhere around Greywater Watch, which is odd, as the last place we saw it was on the head of Ser Ryman Frey's queen of whores at Riverrun.

She might still be the MC for a Clegane-bowl set on the Mummers Ford. Or Nissa-Nissa reborn, though I wonder whose God/s at work here. For both Beric and Catelyn, the kiss of fire worked only after they had been drowned in the waters of the Trident, and they had risen harder and stronger. Their cave is among the roots of a weirwood tree, and both the trees and the river have apparently been doing their supernatural best to assist Robb and Catelyn (Hiding them from the Lannisters at Whispering Wood, the moon exposing Jaime to Catelyn, the rain pouring and rivers flooding to obstruct the Red Wedding, and to sweep Catelyn from it - the delta of the Trident seems full of interventionist elements).

Then there is the wolf with the fish in its mouth theme, the first point being "The woman is important too!"(AGoT, Ch.07 Arya I), the theme developed by Arya's wolf dream of Nymeria pulling Catelyn out of the river, and bidding her to rise (ASoS, Ch.65 Arya XII), and then Cat's Arya dream where she was "looking for her mother, stumbling through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog’s head would not let her go save her."(AFfC, Ch.34 Cat Of The Canals). Whether it is Mudd magic, or blood magic, or fire magic, Catelyn's resurrection forshadows a reunion with Arya. 

The antipathy towards dogs seems more strongly associated with Nymeria than Catelyn or Arya. The other diawolves have little to do with dogs, and seem to get on with them. But maybe Nymeria's attack on Lord Mootens wolfhounds is one among many signs that Arya and the hound have unfinished business. Alayne often gets spurious pro-dog references, like "She tossed and turned, worrying at it like a dog at some old bone."(AFfC, Ch.23 Alayne I) Nymeria considers having a go at a crow as she pulls Catelyn out of the river, which I would guess was a strained Jon metaphor, given their relationship, but it might be BloodRaven, too.

Thoros and the Red God element seem to be losing influence over the Brotherhood, since Catelyn came along. Lem wearing Sandor's helm seems to symbolise how they are going to the dogs. Even if it means Arya gets to feel her mothers arms embrace her one more time, I'm not sure this is the best use Lord Beric could have made of his  life-force, or the best leadership for the BWB. I'm not doubting Catelyn's ability to use a little force to strategically stir up a big war - but is that what Westeros needs right now?  Vengence on the Freys and the Boltons and the Lannisters and the Greyjoys?

On the other hand, Beric used up half of his lives fighting and losing against the Cleganes, and this move opens the way for Clegane-Bowl, which might get rid of both of them, which would be an efficient and relatively bloodless way of achieving his life's mission. If he had asked himself "what would Eddard do", well, yes, revive Catelyn even at the cost of his own life. But Eddard didn't forsee his wife's role in the last big war, either.

[Shuvuuia]

25 minutes ago, Walda said:

Yes. Revived Catelyn and given his seventh life in consequence. It seems a big sacrifice for a dubious end.

It is not as if Lord Beric had already completed his own mission:

<>

I think that's overthinking it a bit. I think BwB's initial goal was simple - fight Gregor, then Lannisters.  and then Beric and Co saw the effect on the common people; and smallfolk and soldiers started joining them, so it became fighting anyone who hurts the smallfolk (includes Northerners) and help people if possible (like saving Brown Brothers from the burning sept or buying grain).

And I don't think the religion is that important to most of them - I don't think Thoros tries to actively convert anyone, it's just some people see a miracle of Beric's revival/"magical healing" and convert because they are disapointed in the Seven and R'hllor seems to have a real power (again, Beric and Thoros respect those Brown Brothers and their religion, while Lem is an ass - it depends on a person).

And BwB isn't that organized - Riverland's lords and peasants probably don't care/know about Beric's initial mission, yet they are the important part of the BwB too. Beric and his "core" group is just the most important fighters and Beric is a figurehead/inspiration for the people. Then he gets tired of his condition and wants to fullfil his promise to Arya, so he revives Catelyn. 

Also I think other people in Stoneheart's group are still looking for the smallfolk - there are still children hiding in the cave, the orphan Inn, etc. Just some like Lem want to kill, and Stoneheart wants vengeance, so it's a perfect opportunity for them.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Walda said:

Yes. Revived Catelyn and given his seventh life in consequence. It seems a big sacrifice for a dubious end.

It is not as if Lord Beric had already completed his own mission:

Thoros at least, is still personally charged with that mission, and Harwin might have inherited accountability for completing the mission from Alyn (or Alyn might be alive and fulfilling it as Captain of Eddard Stark's Household Guard, unbeknownst to the Brotherhood). 

I'm not sure what the BWB is about. Eddard only named four men, and only charged five score with the mission, although Lord Beric remembers six marching out under the royal banners (Eddard said nothing to Lord Darry or the Blackhaven men, and positively admonished Piper and Vance, although their men were at the battle of Mummers Ford, too, and I assume had marched from Kings Landing with the rest.)

Then they lost the banners, and the battle. Eddard said nothing about being a servant of the Lord of Light, or of forming a brotherhood, or knighting recruits. Which I can see leading to all kinds of awkwardness. Like, is Edric Dayne knighted? He's only a boy, so probably too young. Is he a sworn brother? Is there an age limit on that? It seems a lot to ask a kid who only signed on as a squire, to change their religion and bond with a band of outlaws for life. A lot to ask of anyone, and yet their hideout is full of knights. The 'kill Gregor' part of their remit seems to have taken a backseat since Beric and Thoros started knighting and converting. 

So there have been some changes since the banners were lost, and Lord Beric resurrected.  I suppose it is possible that now, only Thoros is still charged with the original mission Eddard Stark gave them. Or maybe even people Gendry knights inherit the original charge of bringing the Kings Justice to Gregor Clegane and his host.

Since King Robert has died, the BWB have not just failed the core objective, they have had massive mission creep. Now they kill Lannisters generally, Brave Companions in particular, and even Northerners. Interestingly, Anguy mentions Lord Bolton's as one of the forces the BWB has attacked (ASoS, Ch.34 Arya VI) before the Red Wedding. So 'northerners' does not just mean Karstarks and renegades from Robb's host, the kind the townsfolk of Sherrer caged for their crimes, but the still embodied main host of northerners in the Riverlands. They don't seem to have identified them as opposed to Clegane, Hoat, and the Lannisters, either.    

I'm not sure Lady Stoneheart inherited the mission to kill Clegane from Dondarrion, or the fulfilment of his promise to Arya, along with the leadership of the Brotherhood. Altogether, resurrection doesn't seem to be compatible with focused leadership and corporate memory.  Lady Stoneheart seems more interested in killing Roose Bolton, killing anyone involved in the Red Wedding, and nevermind the smallfolk of Sherrer and the Kings Justice. 

She seems to be covering some territory, as well. She retrieved Robb's crown from somewhere around Greywater Watch, which is odd, as the last place we saw it was on the head of Ser Ryman Frey's queen of whores at Riverrun.

She might still be the MC for a Clegane-bowl set on the Mummers Ford. Or Nissa-Nissa reborn, though I wonder whose God/s at work here. For both Beric and Catelyn, the kiss of fire worked only after they had been drowned in the waters of the Trident, and they had risen harder and stronger. Their cave is among the roots of a weirwood tree, and both the trees and the river have apparently been doing their supernatural best to assist Robb and Catelyn (Hiding them from the Lannisters at Whispering Wood, the moon exposing Jaime to Catelyn, the rain pouring and rivers flooding to obstruct the Red Wedding, and to sweep Catelyn from it - the delta of the Trident seems full of interventionist elements).

Then there is the wolf with the fish in its mouth theme, the first point being "The woman is important too!"(AGoT, Ch.07 Arya I), the theme developed by Arya's wolf dream of Nymeria pulling Catelyn out of the river, and bidding her to rise (ASoS, Ch.65 Arya XII), and then Cat's Arya dream where she was "looking for her mother, stumbling through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire. It was always raining in that dream, and she could hear her mother screaming, but a monster with a dog’s head would not let her go save her."(AFfC, Ch.34 Cat Of The Canals). Whether it is Mudd magic, or blood magic, or fire magic, Catelyn's resurrection forshadows a reunion with Arya. 

The antipathy towards dogs seems more strongly associated with Nymeria than Catelyn or Arya. The other diawolves have little to do with dogs, and seem to get on with them. But maybe Nymeria's attack on Lord Mootens wolfhounds is one among many signs that Arya and the hound have unfinished business. Alayne often gets spurious pro-dog references, like "She tossed and turned, worrying at it like a dog at some old bone."(AFfC, Ch.23 Alayne I) Nymeria considers having a go at a crow as she pulls Catelyn out of the river, which I would guess was a strained Jon metaphor, given their relationship, but it might be BloodRaven, too.

Thoros and the Red God element seem to be losing influence over the Brotherhood, since Catelyn came along. Lem wearing Sandor's helm seems to symbolise how they are going to the dogs. Even if it means Arya gets to feel her mothers arms embrace her one more time, I'm not sure this is the best use Lord Beric could have made of his  life-force, or the best leadership for the BWB. I'm not doubting Catelyn's ability to use a little force to strategically stir up a big war - but is that what Westeros needs right now?  Vengence on the Freys and the Boltons and the Lannisters and the Greyjoys?

On the other hand, Beric used up half of his lives fighting and losing against the Cleganes, and this move opens the way for Clegane-Bowl, which might get rid of both of them, which would be an efficient and relatively bloodless way of achieving his life's mission. If he had asked himself "what would Eddard do", well, yes, revive Catelyn even at the cost of his own life. But Eddard didn't forsee his wife's role in the last big war, either.

I assume you follow the Riverlands Web threads? If not you might find the discussions there interesting. And I'd like to know what you might think of this if you haven't already seen it...

 

 

[RoamingRonin]

Daenerys is Stormborn. The Baratheons rule Storm's End.

I don't like how this makes me feel.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Alysanne was seven when they took her off to King's Landing and twenty when she died, a silent sister. I went to King's LAnding once to see her, and she would not even speak to me, her own father.

The silent sisters do not speak to the living. What was Ser Eustace expecting to happen?

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Lyseni gave him a long doubtful look, and continued reluctantly. “The guards keep all others away, even his queen and his little daughter. Servants bring meals that no one eats.” He leaned forward and lowered his voice. “Queer talking I have heard, of hungry fires within the mountain, and how Stannis and the red woman go down together to watch the flames. There are shafts, they say, and secret stairs down into the mountain’s heart, into hot places where only she may walk unburned. It is enough and more to give an old man such terrors that sometimes he can scarcely find the strength to eat.”

Davos II, Storm 10

Was Melisandre searching for dragon eggs?

[Lord Wraith]

7 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

Davos II, Storm 10

Was Melisandre searching for dragon eggs?

Seems a likely a place as any. Makes you wonder what happened to all the eggs the Targs had.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This...

Before this is done, I’ll wrap these chains around the wench’s throat, see how she likes them then.

Jaime II!Storm 11

...made me think of Cersei's volanqar, and of another wench. Does Jaime ever refer to his sister as a wench?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This...

 

Jaime II!Storm 11

...made me think of Cersei's volanqar, and of another wench. Does Jaime ever refer to his sister as a wench?

I found only this in a quick search

A woman stood before him.

 in a heavy roughspun cloak, badly dyed in mottled browns and fraying at the hem. A hood concealed her face, but he could see the candles dancing in the green pools of her eyes, and when she moved he knew her.wenchIt is raining again, he thought when he saw how wet she was. The water was trickling down her cloak to puddle round her feet. How did she get here? I never heard her enter. She was dressed like a tavern 

"Cersei." He spoke slowly, like a man waking from a dream, still wondering where he was. "What hour is it?"

 

[Isobel Harper]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This...

 

Jaime II!Storm 11

...made me think of Cersei's volanqar, and of another wench. Does Jaime ever refer to his sister as a wench?

Sounds very similar to how Tyrion kills Shae, with the Hand's chain.

It's not quite "wench" but Jaime does call Cersei a "whore" in ADwD:

To Jonos Bracken's lover: Jaime gave a shrug. "My apologies if I mistook you for something you're not. My little brother has known a hundred whores, I'm sure, but I've only ever bedded one."