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Gabriel Chase

[Spoiler] Jaime + Cersei = Rape?

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I recall the controversy about the post-Joffrey's corpse sex scene in the TV show. People like the singer from Scissor Sisters waxing at length about how bad it was, despite admitting she'd not read the books themselves.

 

The way I heard it told, Jaime never raped Cersei, but it was portrayed as forced in the show. I have now happed upon the passage in my re-read of the series, and to me it sounds pretty 'rapey' as is.

 

Firstly, it's from Jaime's viewpoint, so he may not have considered it that way. Secondly, around 2½ paragraphs make it clear that Cersei does not want to take things further than kisses. She says 'No' unequivocally, but Jaime both 'kissed her silent' and 'never heard her' when she protests five times, while beating at him with her fists.

 

He feels her up, realises she is having her period, but 'it made no difference'.

 

Now, I suspect people probably focus on the paragraph after that, where Cersei tells him to 'Hurry... do me now", but that comes after all her objections both verbal and physical.

 

It seems to be one of those things where a woman who says 'No' secretly wants sex, or else can be forced into 'liking it' if you go far enough.

 

I really don't see why the people watching the show claimed that D&D depicted it incorrectly!

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It's a little rapey in the books indeed.

 

For me the big difference is the timing. In the books Jaime gets home to King's Landing and this is basically their first interaction after being separate for almost 2 years, so it's understandable that Jaime goes overboard a little bit with his desire for her. But on the show the scene happens just completely at random and serves no real purpose whatsoever.

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I see nothing particularily rapey about this. All Cersei's protest seem to be more for show and because that particualr moment didn't fit her, than because she was averse to having sex with Jaime. She initiates it by kissing Jaime, then she mumbles weakly about how they shouldn't have sex right there because the septons might find out, but when Jaime doesn't wish to stop she clearly changes her tune and starts to enjoy it instead... only to change her tune right back again when it's done.

 

Felt more like Cersei was the teenage girl who is snogging her boyfriend in the livingroom while her parents are on the other side of the wall in the kitchen, only to mumble about how they really should go upstairs to her room to do it instead.

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I see nothing particularily rapey about this. All Cersei's protest seem to be more for show and because that particualr moment didn't fit her, than because she was averse to having sex with Jaime. She initiates it by kissing Jaime, then she mumbles weakly about how they shouldn't have sex right there because the septons might find out, but when Jaime doesn't wish to stop she clearly changes her tune and starts to enjoy it instead... only to change her tune right back again when it's done.

 

Felt more like Cersei was the teenage girl who is snogging her boyfriend in the livingroom while her parents are on the other side of the wall in the kitchen, only to mumble about how they really should go upstairs to her room to do it instead.

 

Does it really matter WHY a woman says 'No'? Is it just that she really wanted it and it took him being a bit forceful to make her acknowledge this?

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Well that moment really kind of defined the interplay between the books and the show. What is subtext in one is blatantly depicted in the other...

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Jaime and Cersei have been lovers for almost 20 years. They know each other very well. For what Jaime often recalls, she always plays "hard to get" with him: she always demands and he has to give. Cersei seems to be always in control of the situation and in this one particular scene, it was Jaime who decided to dominate.

 

I know is shocking for many people but it is not unusual for couples to make this "roleplaying" once in a while. My last partner knew the difference between my "no, I'm not in the mood" and my "'no but keep insisting' no".

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Jaime and Cersei have been lovers for almost 20 years. They know each other very well. For what Jaime often recalls, she always plays "hard to get" with him: she always demands and he has to give. Cersei seems to be always in control of the situation and in this one particular scene, it was Jaime who decided to dominate.

 

I know is shocking for many people but it is not unusual for couples to make this "roleplaying" once in a while. My last partner knew the difference between my "no, I'm not in the mood" and my "'no but keep insisting' no".

 

This, pretty much. It's quite big difference between "No, you're raping me, you're hurting me, stop!" (e.g. Aerys and Rhaella) and "No... but I actually don't really mind, and your may persuade me if you continue what you are doing." I reckon most couples (of which Cersei and Jaime are one) would be able to differenttiate between the two, and os I always figured it was a case of the latter example rather than the former.

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Jaime and Cersei have been lovers for almost 20 years. They know each other very well. For what Jaime often recalls, she always plays "hard to get" with him: she always demands and he has to give. Cersei seems to be always in control of the situation and in this one particular scene, it was Jaime who decided to dominate.

 

I know is shocking for many people but it is not unusual for couples to make this "roleplaying" once in a while. My last partner knew the difference between my "no, I'm not in the mood" and my "'no but keep insisting' no".

 

Oh I certainly agree with that, but given the circumstances at the time, I doubt 'roleplaying' was very much on her mind. 

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