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The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn


sweetsunray

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Yes, I really appreciated that post.
 
 

Just finished reading. Read the whole thing. Excellent job! It's these kinds of posts that keep me interested and excited about the series. I had seen Arya as somewhat of an Ariadne figure before but youve really enhanced that perception. The arya sacco ?sp) was a superb catch.

If you come back to this post, this is a question for you and LmL as well.

Years ago, I looked at the Dogon myth of Sirius A, Sirius B, and a possible Sirius C - a trilogy of stars caught in one another's orbits. Sirius A is the one we can see, one of the brightest stars in the sky. It is blue and the name connotes dog or wolf. The main thing is that its orbit is erratic, because every 50 years or so Sirius B comes close enough to affect its orbit. Sirius B is a white dwarf of incredible mass. Nobody could see it really until the 1970's. It was inferred to exist before that because when it got close to main Sirius A, Sirius A would grow brighter, and when it was furthest away, Sirius A would dim and sometimes look like many different stars conglomerated to the naked eye. Sirius C has never really been corroborated - it exists as the sun for the planet of the Dogon gods in Dogon mythology -though there was some evidence presented in 1995 of its possible existence. It would come close enough to Sirius A to affect it once every few millenia or so, according to the myth.

Im hoping that you or LmL as students or archeoastronomy can tell me if you see any comparisons here with the way Planetos works in terms of Long Nights and magic. I'm sure LmL at least has considered it because Sirius and the Dogons have provided much speculation (rather like Atlantis) in the field. Please private message me if either of you have looked at it and it has nothing to do with the topic here.

 

 

Thank you :)

 

While researching the maiden-of-light, I certainly came across Sirius and the Dogon myth. It almost became my designated maiden because of the tantalizing double-star theme and the name Dogon itself - Dogon - Drogo - Drogon. Very close. I still think it plays a role, or is perhaps a hint. In the end I attributed it to the Lion of Night because of the connection with Orion (the hunter) and Osiris (the afterworld) - alusions to the Wild Hunt. Vega, with all its connections to justice and benevolence seemed a better fit for the maiden in the end. 

 

Another thing I considered is the possibility of a supernova which gives the impression of a new star appearing in the heavens. A supernova only lasts from a couple of months to a maximum of a couple of years before it becomes invisible. It also sends out massive streams of radiation, which could be interpreted as 'life source'. But again, Vega / Astraea won the contest. 

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I am so glad! I was afraid to come back. I didnt want to derail anything. As it is, however, the Melisandre post is not so far off. Once she is considered one of three, instead of on her own, she can also be identified as one of Three Fates (The Moirai) and hence related to the Norns. Both sets of three women are related, and while there are all kinds of similarities too difficult to enumerate, they divide roughly into the one who decides or spins what is, what was, and what will be. The Morai in particular have to do with allotments, lot in life, destiny. Their name actually translates deciders of 'lot'. This pun - Lot 7 -just keeps going.

So while we have Arya becoming a 'chooser of the slain', we also have Melisandre as the Atropos Fate ('what will be' and executioner - the one who wields the scissors) doing the same based on her visions and doing it wrong. Perhaps because she has been separated from her sisters and seems to have no notion of what is and what was. Seeing the future is not enough if you have no points of reference grounded in the past and present to enable correct interpretation. Snipping off the lives of men and women to fulfill a false destiny - well, something's rotten here in Westeros.

 

Lady Barbrey, you've made my day! I would give you a big hug if I could. Your thoughts on Mel in this and  the previous post are the solution to something I've been chewing on for quite a while. In fact, without realizing it before, the answer to the problem is weaving. Let me explain.

 

I while ago I identified three traits, which I believe have been passed down through the ages via the female line. Think of them as silver, gold and purple, basically the Valyrian traits. The Three Sisters (the islands) represent the women that carry these very rare traits in their original untainted form (at this point I have to add that having silver-gold hair and purple eyes, does not necessarily mean a person has them or all of them).The three Quarrelsome Daughters (Myr, Tyrosh and Lys) represent women carrying the tainted version of these traits - think of this as Targaryen madness for instance. There are three taints in all but more on that perhaps later. Why the Quarrelsome Daughters? Because Borell says his daughter's daughter has the 'mark' (the webbed hands). 

 

The connection I never made is that the Three Sisters are actually Weavers. We find clues to who the sisters are  in the names of the islands - Little Sister, Sweet Sister and Long Sister. Little sister is clearly Arya. Jon refers to her as little sister and she thinks of herself as his little sister. Sansa, Dany and Cersei, Brienne, Obara, Nym, Tyene and Arianne qualify for one of the roles as well. Cersi belongs in the Quarrelsome Daughter group. And now you've added Mel to the list So anyway, perhaps you see what I'm getting at:

 

The Three Sisters are the three Fates that spin destiny, each with their own role:

 

  • Clotho spun the thread of life from her distaff (tool holding unspun fibres) onto her spindle.
  • Lachesis – “allotter” (drawer of lots) measured the thread of life allotted to each person with her measuring rod.
  • Atropos – “inevitable”, literally “unturning”, was the cutter of the thread of life. She chose the manner of each person’s death; and when their time was come, she cut their life-thread with “her abhorred shears”

So in terms of  ASOIAF, the tools we have are:

 

A Needle - Little Sister

Thread - Long Sister

Scissors - Sweet Sister

 

(this is what I think but feel free to discuss the allocation)

 

More clues to the characters are found in the names of Velaryon ships:

 

Harridan, Seahorse and Bold Laughter (I think these are the Quarrelsome daughters). 

 

and the three bells of Norvos: Nyel, Noom and Narrah. 

 

I really have to write this up properly ... bear with me, i don't want to derail this thread either.

 

I'm so excited. This has been bothering me for ages! Now it's almost solved, thank you :)

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Thank you :)
 
While researching the maiden-of-light, I certainly came across Sirius and the Dogon myth. It almost became my designated maiden because of the tantalizing double-star theme and the name Dogon itself - Dogon - Drogo - Drogon. Very close. I still think it plays a role, or is perhaps a hint. In the end I attributed it to the Lion of Night because of the connection with Orion (the hunter) and Osiris (the afterworld) - alusions to the Wild Hunt. Vega, with all its connections to justice and benevolence seemed a better fit for the maiden in the end. 
 
Another thing I considered is the possibility of a supernova which gives the impression of a new star appearing in the heavens. A supernova only lasts from a couple of months to a maximum of a couple of years before it becomes invisible. It also sends out massive streams of radiation, which could be interpreted as 'life source'. But again, Vega / Astraea won the contest.


Yes, I found your Vega/Astraea more convincing too, but will still hold on to the other until we learn more. Thanks for the reply!
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Thank you all for this great thread... I wish I could participate more, but I don't have enough mythological knowledge to do so. So I will keep on reading! 


Same here - I really don't know any of the Arthuruan stuff well at all, but it's not hard to follow the analysis here and it's quite enjoyable. Clearly this is something Martin drew upon, so it's really great to learn. The Valkyrie stuff is was only somewhat learned about, so learning a lot there too. Sometimes, it's just good to read what that smart people are saying. ;)
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Same here - I really don't know any of the Arthuruan stuff well at all, but it's not hard to follow the analysis here and it's quite enjoyable. Clearly this is something Martin drew upon, so it's really great to learn. The Valkyrie stuff is was only somewhat learned about, so learning a lot there too. Sometimes, it's just good to read what that smart people are saying. ;)

 

Exactly. I actually know a bit of Greek mythology since I really liked it when I was younger, but making all the connections and understanding all of GRRM's references for me is too hard most of the time. So I really enjoy people helping me in it. 

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Yes, she does: Weasel, Nan, Cat, Beth

Except for Arry and Salty I think.

And "Mercy" ties to the gift of "mercy".

We don't actually know that Nan and Beth are dead.  Surviving women and children were taken to the Dreadfort but we've had no word of what's happened to them since.  Come to think of it, didn't Weasel run off and hasn't been since?

 

She also claims that Nan is short for Nymeria and the warrior queen is definitely dead.

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From Jory to Rodrick to Beth, the Cassel family's collective fate is one of the saddest things in the book to me.  That's probably the thing I hold against Theon the most, resorting to using Beth in that way and putting Rodrick in that position. It's not the worst thing he did - murdering children probably takes that title - but it's just so horrific that it leaves a lasting impression... and of course George actually wrote that scene, so we felt it really hard. Anyway. Just thought I'd take a minute for poor House Cassel. Jory at least had a glorious death scene, with "red rain" flying from his sword.

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We don't actually know that Nan and Beth are dead.  Surviving women and children were taken to the Dreadfort but we've had no word of what's happened to them since.  Come to think of it, didn't Weasel run off and hasn't been since?

 

She also claims that Nan is short for Nymeria and the warrior queen is definitely dead.

 

Maybe they are missing persons? Arya thinks they're dead though. Weasel was 4 and ran off into the woods. She had no chance, I think.

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From Jory to Rodrick to Beth, the Cassel family's collective fate is one of the saddest things in the book to me.  That's probably the thing I hold against Theon the most, resorting to using Beth in that way and putting Rodrick in that position. It's not the worst thing he did - murdering children probably takes that title - but it's just so horrific that it leaves a lasting impression... and of course George actually wrote that scene, so we felt it really hard. Anyway. Just thought I'd take a minute for poor House Cassel. Jory at least had a glorious death scene, with "red rain" flying from his sword.

 

I completely agree  :agree:

The most hurtful passages of Theon's actions in WF was how callous he went about the lives of servants - Farlan, Chayle, Beth and the miller's family (not just the children, but the miller and wife as well). He was pretty much aspiring to become Vargo Hoat III or something. 

 

A moment of respectful silence for the Cassels :crying:

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Yes, she does: Weasel, Nan, Cat, Beth

Except for Arry and Salty I think.

And "Mercy" ties to the gift of "mercy".

 

I have this crackpot notion that Weasel was adopted by Nymeria's wolf-pack. There's a passage where Arya insists that wolves don't eat babies .. who knows? 

 

And Old Nan - could she be the old woman who received the gift and chose the scented candles in the HoBaW? Arya feels her face, there's a passage devoted to the scene. It happens around the time the slave-ship from Hardhome is intercepted by the Braavosi. Why Old Nan would be taken from the Dreadfort to Hardhome or how she could have appeared in Braavos is a mystery though.

 

And poor Beth. Very sad indeed. She had red hair, which is supposed to be lucky. Maybe it did bring her luck. 

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Lady Barbrey, you've made my day! I would give you a big hug if I could. Your thoughts on Mel in this and  the previous post are the solution to something I've been chewing on for quite a while. In fact, without realizing it before, the answer to the problem is weaving. Let me explain.
 
I while ago I identified three traits, which I believe have been passed down through the ages via the female line. Think of them as silver, gold and purple, basically the Valyrian traits. The Three Sisters (the islands) represent the women that carry these very rare traits in their original untainted form (at this point I have to add that having silver-gold hair and purple eyes, does not necessarily mean a person has them or all of them).The three Quarrelsome Daughters (Myr, Tyrosh and Lys) represent women carrying the tainted version of these traits - think of this as Targaryen madness for instance. There are three taints in all but more on that perhaps later. Why the Quarrelsome Daughters? Because Borell says his daughter's daughter has the 'mark' (the webbed hands). 
 
The connection I never made is that the Three Sisters are actually Weavers. We find clues to who the sisters are  in the names of the islands - Little Sister, Sweet Sister and Long Sister. Little sister is clearly Arya. Jon refers to her as little sister and she thinks of herself as his little sister. Sansa, Dany and Cersei, Brienne, Obara, Nym, Tyene and Arianne qualify for one of the roles as well. Cersi belongs in the Quarrelsome Daughter group. And now you've added Mel to the list So anyway, perhaps you see what I'm getting at:
 
The Three Sisters are the three Fates that spin destiny, each with their own role:
 

  • Clotho spun the thread of life from her distaff (tool holding unspun fibres) onto her spindle.
  • Lachesis – “allotter” (drawer of lots) measured the thread of life allotted to each person with her measuring rod.
  • Atropos – “inevitable”, literally “unturning”, was the cutter of the thread of life. She chose the manner of each person’s death; and when their time was come, she cut their life-thread with “her abhorred shears”
So in terms of  ASOIAF, the tools we have are:
 
A Needle - Little Sister
Thread - Long Sister
Scissors - Sweet Sister
 
(this is what I think but feel free to discuss the allocation)
 
More clues to the characters are found in the names of Velaryon ships:
 
Harridan, Seahorse and Bold Laughter (I think these are the Quarrelsome daughters). 
 
and the three bells of Norvos: Nyel, Noom and Narrah. 
 
I really have to write this up properly ... bear with me, i don't want to derail this thread either.
 
I'm so excited. This has been bothering me for ages! Now it's almost solved, thank you :)

So glad I could help! Though I admit ignorance - I don't really understand some of your post. Looking forward to reading it when you've finished it.
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There's a curious reference in the WoIaF book:
 

 
"swan maidens" in mythology are usually maidens found bathing, but with feather dresses that helps them skinchange into swans. They appear often in folklore with a man (or several men) spying them, ending up hiding the feather dress, and then marry one of the maidens. In some tales these swan maidens are unhappy, miserable, crying, until eventually someone in the household (might be son or daughter) finds and returns the hidden feather dress. The swan maiden would then don the feather dress and fly off. The swan lake, Anderson's "the wild swans" and other older stories use this motif.
 
But there are also myths and folklore stories where these swan maidens are Valkyries. The legend Wayland the Smith starts with Wayland and his 2 brothers stumbling upon 3 such swan maidens, who are Vakyries. In this legend though, the feather dress is not stolen. All three swan maiden/valkyries remain with the brothers for 7 or 9 years (depends on the source) voluntarily before flying off.

  • Valkyrie Alruna marries the brother Agiliaz (archer hero). Note that her name contains the word 'rune', which were not solely means to write but used by Odin and Norns to ascribe fate/resurrection on someone.
  • Valkyrie "Hervör alvitr" marries Wayland, with "avlitr" meaning "all wise" or "strange creature".
  • Valkyrie "Hladgudr svanhvit" marries brother Slagvidr. "svanhvit" means "swan-white" and the brother's name means "beating-Finn".
So, we have med seducing swan maidens that are Valkyries, who choose is to be slain, and GRRM uses a direct "swan maiden" concept of women luring men into hills to kill them.
 
How is this relevant to Arya? At another level her story arc is that of the Ugly Duckling, who is actually a swan.(the link leads to an essay where all the evidence for Arya's arc mapping nicely with the Ugly Duckling story is gathered). On top of that she also has a story with an armorer-smith apprentice who falls for her, but she "flies" off.
 
I'll pluck a quote from the ugly duckling essay that fits in this post -
 

 
GRRM thus has Arya functioning as a the archetype Valkyrie, but more precise as a swan maiden, and incorporated the Ugly Duckling tale into coming-of-age story.
 
Were those 7 swan maidens possible Valkyries near Pentos? If they were 7 they seemed to have worked together, or as an organisation, much like the FM is an organisation. They are portrayed as a type of "outlaws" or "evil" women, but perhaps they were only doing a certain power's will, like Arya does now. Since it's an old legend of Pentos, likely referecing to Hugor of the Hill, the Valkyries would predate the FM, and then the First is not really the First, but one of many throughout time. However, it seems the First was far more succesful. Her organisation is hinted to be involved with the bringing about of the Doom, and certainly her organisation managed to survive several centuries, and as a Braavos organisation by extension succeeded in having Pentos officially halt the practice of slavery.
 
And our Arya's first larger scale feat is not the murder of a certain end-game player but having Braavos ships rescue women and children from Others, wights as well as Lyseni slavers at Hardhome.
Just read the Ugly Duckling post. Well done!

I wonder, however, if George isn't subverting the trope of swan-maiden at the same time he's positing it?

Valkyries were most associated with ravens. Birds of prey. The swan-maiden was a fairly recent gloss on Valkyries, as if the black ravens of myth were donning white coats of feathers as a disguise Swan maidens don't seem to have done much aside from getting caught, though their yearning to be who they once were could be construed as wildness and independence but also to go home. I don't really see this with Arya as much now; she's becoming a different person.

it's interesting to me that when she sees swans and wants to be like them, they are black. In tbe context of the story, the Black Swan is a powerful prostitute in Lys. Not an outcome we'd want for Arya. In real-world terms, 'black swan' is a euphemism for that that doesn't exist. They were thought to be impossible creatures till discovered in Australia. 'I'm swanning you' is based on the non-existence of black swans, meaning 'I'm telling you a tall tale'. I've read the expression before though I've never heard it said.

The symbol of the three black swans, then, seems more expressive of an illusion. Or 3. Black to show the raven inside - she is foremost a bird of prey. Black to warn of power but as a prostitute - literally selling herself for power. Black to warn of the illusory nature of her desire to be free, rub out the experiences she has had, turn her back on the world. Even swans, black or white, can't escape. I actually think the last two are choices the Kindly Man offers her in practical terms if she chooses to leave the FM.

In fact, it's kind of interesting to compare her to Sansa, who was not an ugly duckling, but has grown up to realize beautiful swans can be far uglier than first realized.

Regarding the Pentos passage, it's possible there is something there. When I think of women luring men to their deaths, I think of sirens, mermaids, enchantresses. Morgan LeFay's ;) I also think of men blaming women for their own desire. I've never read about specifically swan maidens doing anything like this so it really is interesting he has chosen them for this example. Stands out as if he is fitting them into a larger myth of his own and the ancients' making. These aren't actual swan maidens. They're birds of prey dressed up like them. So yes, I do get a glimmering of a possible FM/Valkyrie connection.
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There are acolytes there, and when she first is there, growing accustomed to the place, there's a blind acolyte.
 
BTW. In connection to what she "learned". Remember the Lyseni slaver ships? She found out how one of them got stuck in Braavos and taken into custody for having slaves. She informed the kindly man where they go the slaves from - Hardhome. And that there were actually 2 Lyseni ships, and how one most likely DID manage to return to Lys with the wildling women and children, and they talk of returning to Hardhome to fetch even more women and children to sell as slaves.
 
Not long after Tychio arrives at the wall with 3 Braavosi ships. Why does he need 3 ships? He travels all by himself. Jon brings up Hardhome himself and wants all 3 ships to rescue people. It's not the sole things he gets out of the negotiations with Tychio, but he does think afterwards "that was too easy". And then later he gets a letter telling him that the Braavos ships only take women and children.
 
In other words, Tychio came with 3 ships already intent on using those ships to get women and children out of Hardhome before Lyseni slavers would return to the place. Arya helped Braavos in their anti-slavery goal. So, she's directly having an influence on Braavos politics and the lives of many women and children of Westeros. Arya saved a great many people with that.
 
When the kindly man takes her down to the "vault" with faces, deep underground (bankers and merchants initially hid their wealth in old iron mines, and FM have a mining history), he takes out an ornate key. He's possibly one of the 26 keyholders. Well there are a great many keyholders of descent but only with a ceremonious key. Only 26 of those would be the actual keyholders to the Braavos vaults. The kindly man has an actual vault key.
 
 
And finally, Tychio gifts 6 ironborn + Theon to Stannis and Asha. Theon is the only man who can make Euron's kingsmoot illegal. It seems that the FM killed Balon for Euron for him dumping a dragon egg to the bottom of the ocean where it can never hatch. He became King of the Iron Islands because of it the next day, but then Theon is delivered by an Iron Banker to nullify Euron's appointment.
 
Stannis in Theon chapter of WoW
[spoiler]
Tychio may have given one other info to Stannis. Though he ends his Deepwood Motte letter respectfully with regards to Arya Stark, and he ought to believe her to extremely important for his war - she being Ned's little girl to the mountain clans and such. But he completely dismisses her as the "Stark girl" to be sent to the Wall with Justin Massey (renowned womanizer) and a small escort. And it sounds like he's sending Justin Massey on some unacomplishable mission to find 20k sellswords. The Golden Company is one of the largest, and that's 10k. Is he simply sending Justin away to be rid of him? Does Tychio know where the real Arya is and did he tell Stannis, and that therefore Stannis knows
the Stark girl =/= Arya?[/spoiler]


You know sweetsunray, I think this one could do with a separae thread. I didn't put this together at all and I bet a lot of people didnt't. No use hiding it away in the middle of this long thread. It's not even a theory, it rings oc complete truth but only the closest (and smartest) of readers will have caught it.

Tyche, by the way, was the goddess of fortune and prosperity, particularly for a city. I noticed it when I looked up the Moirai. Where have I heard that recently, I wondered. And here was your post just up the day before about Tychio.
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Maybe they are missing persons? Arya thinks they're dead though. Weasel was 4 and ran off into the woods. She had no chance, I think.

George said the women and children went to the Dreadfort.  Arya thinks they're dead but since she wasn't there it would be hard for her to say for certain.

 

Admittedly the chances of Weasel surviving are slim, but maybe some kind smallfolk took her in.

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I am so glad! I was afraid to come back. I didnt want to derail anything.

As it is, however, the Melisandre post is not so far off. Once she is considered one of three, instead of on her own, she can also be more strongly identified as one of Three Fates (The Moirai) and hence related to the Norns (also three in some versions). Both sets of three women are related, and while there are all kinds of similarities too difficult to enumerate, they divide roughly into the one who decides or spins what is (Clothos), what was (Lachesis), or what will be (Atropos). The Morai in particular have to do with allotments, lot in life, destiny. Their name actually translates deciders of 'lot'. This pun - Lot 7 -just keeps going.

So while we have Arya becoming a 'chooser of the slain', we also have Melisandre as the Atropos Fate ('what will be' and executioner - the one who wields the scissors) doing the same based on her visions and doing it wrong. Perhaps because she has been separated from her sisters and seems to have no notion of what is and what was. Seeing the future is not enough if you have no points of reference grounded in the past and present to enable correct interpretation. Snipping off the lives of men and women to fulfill a false destiny - well, something's rotten here in Westeros.

 

We know that whichever scrying method you use (dreams, weirnet, flames, shade of the evening) is accurate. And they all have the ability to show both past and future - what was and what will be. Melisandre thinks/says at some point she can see far in the past in the flames (IIRC she says it to Jon).

 

sidenote: we don't see water being used as an element to scry, but I suspect this is what moonsingers use for prophecy. Moonsinging practice reminds me of druidic rituals, involving cauldrons/cups. And a cauldron of water catches the reflection of the moon nicely. The drowned men don't do prophecy, only rescucitation (sp?).

 

But there is a gigantic difference in what the characters who have the visions do with it. In one extreme we have fatalistic Jojen, who doesn't believe the predictions of his dreams can be averted at all. He sees his own part in relation to Bran and he journeys to WF in order to do what to him is set in stone. He sees ahead enough in time to see that apart from all the bad events, there is also that one light of getting Bran to the 3-eyed crow.

 

And then at the other extreme we have Melisandre, with superb scrying skill, but extremely short sighted about it. She believes she sees visions in order to prevent them if she so chooses. But time and time again we learn that like in Greek tragedies, her attempts at doing so, are exactly what make it happen. In that sense Jojen's fatalism is correct.

 

Conclusion, if the vision is seen it will happen. That's why GoHH relates it as news. And the BwB uses it as data to work with.

 

But there are things Melisandre does not see, and is surprised about - like Davos smuggling Edric Storm out. So, not everything is set in stone. There seem to be characters with a free agency, who have latitude. They can't change what's set in stone, but they can have an impact on what's not yet predicted. And I think this is who BR attempts to influence. Other characters imo that fall into that category are Theon, Jaime and Brienne. It's not just important what a seer or seeress does see, but just as important what they do not see. It's here there's wriggle room. And this may be why BR and Bran kindof mock Melisandre when she realizes they can see her while she sees them in the flames.

 

So, yes, Mel and the reference of Lot 7 seems a hint at Mel's theme regarding finguring out what "fate" means.

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Lady Barbrey, you've made my day! I would give you a big hug if I could. Your thoughts on Mel in this and  the previous post are the solution to something I've been chewing on for quite a while. In fact, without realizing it before, the answer to the problem is weaving. Let me explain.

 

I while ago I identified three traits, which I believe have been passed down through the ages via the female line. Think of them as silver, gold and purple, basically the Valyrian traits. The Three Sisters (the islands) represent the women that carry these very rare traits in their original untainted form (at this point I have to add that having silver-gold hair and purple eyes, does not necessarily mean a person has them or all of them).The three Quarrelsome Daughters (Myr, Tyrosh and Lys) represent women carrying the tainted version of these traits - think of this as Targaryen madness for instance. There are three taints in all but more on that perhaps later. Why the Quarrelsome Daughters? Because Borell says his daughter's daughter has the 'mark' (the webbed hands). 

 

The connection I never made is that the Three Sisters are actually Weavers. We find clues to who the sisters are  in the names of the islands - Little Sister, Sweet Sister and Long Sister. Little sister is clearly Arya. Jon refers to her as little sister and she thinks of herself as his little sister. Sansa, Dany and Cersei, Brienne, Obara, Nym, Tyene and Arianne qualify for one of the roles as well. Cersi belongs in the Quarrelsome Daughter group. And now you've added Mel to the list So anyway, perhaps you see what I'm getting at:

 

The Three Sisters are the three Fates that spin destiny, each with their own role:

 

  • Clotho spun the thread of life from her distaff (tool holding unspun fibres) onto her spindle.
  • Lachesis – “allotter” (drawer of lots) measured the thread of life allotted to each person with her measuring rod.
  • Atropos – “inevitable”, literally “unturning”, was the cutter of the thread of life. She chose the manner of each person’s death; and when their time was come, she cut their life-thread with “her abhorred shears”

So in terms of  ASOIAF, the tools we have are:

 

A Needle - Little Sister

Thread - Long Sister

Scissors - Sweet Sister

 

(this is what I think but feel free to discuss the allocation)

 

More clues to the characters are found in the names of Velaryon ships:

 

Harridan, Seahorse and Bold Laughter (I think these are the Quarrelsome daughters). 

 

and the three bells of Norvos: Nyel, Noom and Narrah. 

 

I really have to write this up properly ... bear with me, i don't want to derail this thread either.

 

I'm so excited. This has been bothering me for ages! Now it's almost solved, thank you :)

 

Nice link of the 3 Sisters and the Island names in relation to the 3 Fates. In Norse tradition there are more than 3 Norns, but there are 3 who seem at least important, and thus comparable to the Greek Fates.

 

But there are several "sisters" who seem to play a role in the books. Of course there's Sansa, but also Mya Stone, and what about Val (Dalla's sister).

 

Also, Arya as a Valkyrie would be performing Atropos' role, albeit with a Needle, instead of scissors. She "chooses the slain" and "what manner they die" (natural, poison, sword).

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Just read the Ugly Duckling post. Well done!

I wonder, however, if George isn't subverting the trope of swan-maiden at the same time he's positing it?

Valkyries were most associated with ravens. Birds of prey. The swan-maiden was a fairly recent gloss on Valkyries, as if the black ravens of myth were donning white coats of feathers as a disguise Swan maidens don't seem to have done much aside from getting caught, though their yearning to be who they once were could be construed as wildness and independence but also to go home. I don't really see this with Arya as much now; she's becoming a different person.

it's interesting to me that when she sees swans and wants to be like them, they are black. In tbe context of the story, the Black Swan is a powerful prostitute in Lys. Not an outcome we'd want for Arya. In real-world terms, 'black swan' is a euphemism for that that doesn't exist. They were thought to be impossible creatures till discovered in Australia. 'I'm swanning you' is based on the non-existence of black swans, meaning 'I'm telling you a tall tale'. I've read the expression before though I've never heard it said.

The symbol of the three black swans, then, seems more expressive of an illusion. Or 3. Black to show the raven inside - she is foremost a bird of prey. Black to warn of power but as a prostitute - literally selling herself for power. Black to warn of the illusory nature of her desire to be free, rub out the experiences she has had, turn her back on the world. Even swans, black or white, can't escape. I actually think the last two are choices the Kindly Man offers her in practical terms if she chooses to leave the FM.

In fact, it's kind of interesting to compare her to Sansa, who was not an ugly duckling, but has grown up to realize beautiful swans can be far uglier than first realized.

Regarding the Pentos passage, it's possible there is something there. When I think of women luring men to their deaths, I think of sirens, mermaids, enchantresses. Morgan LeFay's ;) I also think of men blaming women for their own desire. I've never read about specifically swan maidens doing anything like this so it really is interesting he has chosen them for this example. Stands out as if he is fitting them into a larger myth of his own and the ancients' making. These aren't actual swan maidens. They're birds of prey dressed up like them. So yes, I do get a glimmering of a possible FM/Valkyrie connection.

 

 

There is indeed an evolution in the depiction of the Valkyries. In the eldest traditions they are old hags. Ravens are not as much birds of prey but carrion eaters, and thus prevalent at a battlefield. And they are Odin's eyes. But then the Valkyries become daughters and maidens - handsome women men lust after. And then they often get tied to the swan maiden motif. Wayland the Smith (Volundr) is still a telling of the Poetic Edda, which predates the Proze Edda, and it is in the Poetic Edda the 3 swan maidens the 3 brothers marry are identified as Valkyries. 

 

Swan maidens are not just like mermaids or syrens, but they represent the seasons. Ravens do not trek. Swans do. They leave for winter and return by spring. What does Arya do? She leaves Westeros by late fall, before Winter arrives. I therefore do not expect her back in Westeros before early spring, late winter when the thaw has set in (Jon's words in aGoT thus can be dismissed).

 

Courtesans are not truly fanciful, expensive whores. They are mostly sought after for company and prestige, rather than sexual gratification. Where whores must please the client, it's the client who must please the courtesan. When inititally the kindly man includes the life of a courtesan as one of the alternative lives to Arya this means little to her. Westeros does not have courtesans. So, she does not really know what they are. Either she believes they are like "courtiers" or she might believe they are whores for the rich. But as Cat of the Canals she shows a particular curiosity and admiration for them. They are women of prestige, beauty and especially of independence. There is one passage in the books where she basically admires them in their barges and the description of "floating" reminds me very much of "swans".

 

Courtesans = swans is further hinted at in Jorah's backstory. Lynesse Hightower (from the South) was won by Jorah-bear, who brought her to his den at Bear Island, and she's miserable there. He impowerishes himself to get her jewerly, dresses and take her touring around Westeros, until he eventually attempts to sell poachers as slaves. He flees together with her to Lys, in the hope to hang on to her, and live as a sellsword, but eventually she becomes the prince's courtesan, and so powerful that even the prince's wife adhers to her.

 

I have no doubt that at some point Arya will be initiated into femininity by Braavos courtesans. Women have access to places and people where men cannot go. And courtesans have a greater freedom in movement then other women. She spies as Cat or Beth at the low end of commerce, and by the end of aDwD she's sent to a mummer's troupe, to train her acting skills. As a female agent she is bound to take residence with a Braavos courtesan for a while, to make her just as comfortable with elegant dress and such things. 

 

While courtesans are prevalent members of society in almost all of the Free Cities, including Braavos, they are non-existent in Westeros. And I think that's where the seven swan maidens sacrificed by the Andal king come in as well. The Andals brought with them the faith of 7, where the female only can be a mother, a maiden or a crone. None of these roles have active agency. The maiden has to be chaste and desired, the mother nurtures her children (and thus is a wife), the grandmother shares her wisdom. They are all roles that tie a woman to marriage and birthing heirs. And we see how especially the region between the Neck and Red Mountains view women in this way and look down on women who attempt to step outside of these roles - Brienne, the Mormont women, and Cersei is immensely frustrated by these restrictions since she was a child. While a courtesan is highly feminine, she is also very independent and of high status, though without husband, or children. Obviously the Andals were not keen on allowing women such independence and they rejected courtesans within their culture.

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You know sweetsunray, I think this one could do with a separae thread. I didn't put this together at all and I bet a lot of people didnt't. No use hiding it away in the middle of this long thread. It's not even a theory, it rings oc complete truth but only the closest (and smartest) of readers will have caught it.

Tyche, by the way, was the goddess of fortune and prosperity, particularly for a city. I noticed it when I looked up the Moirai. Where have I heard that recently, I wondered. And here was your post just up the day before about Tychio.

 

It was actually Cantuse who picked up on it. The weird thing is that even Wiki is kindof confused about it, somehow suggesting that the Braavos ships of Tychio are trying to engage in slave trade or something. But that doesn't fit with the timeline, and the Lysenis ships ended up at Hardhome by happenstance with a storm, and it were only 2 ships. The 3 Braavos ships went there officially by order of Jon Snow, and thus on purpose, together with NW fleet.  No, they're trying to disrupt the Lyseni slave trade. Since Dany hit Slaver's Bay prices for slaves have risen. And the Lysenis want to make money out of it. That's why the Braavosi only take women and children, because they already know that's what the Lysenis will be after.  They're purposefully preventing Lyseni slavers of finding their targeted slave potential at Hardhome.

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Sweetsunray, while I was looking at swan maidens yesterday, one of the first stories that came up was almost an exact relica of the waif's - jealous stepmother queen tries to kill her daughters after she has her own children and they escape by turning into swan-maidens. They meet a prince suffering the exact same fate.

Thought that story seemed out of place when the Waif told it - like we'd just been told a fairy tale.

The Waif's archetype appears to be a swan maiden/Valkyrie as well.
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