The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn

[sweetsunray]

Sweetsunray, while I was looking at swan maidens yesterday, one of the first stories that came up was almost an exact relica of the waif's - jealous stepmother queen tries to kill her daughters after she has her own children and they escape by turning into swan-maidens. They meet a prince suffering the exact same fate.

Thought that story seemed out of place when the Waif told it - like we'd just been told a fairy tale.

The Waif's archetype appears to be a swan maiden/Valkyrie as well.

 

There's also the story of the 'six swans' (Grimms' story). The princess' six brothers are turned into swan by their wicked stepmother, and they can only take human form for a short time every evening. The princess starts to knit nettle cloaks, but must be silent for 7 years while making them. Meanwhile another king falls in love with her, takes her to wife, and she has a child. The wicked stepmother steals the child and accuses her of having murdered her own child. She cannot speak up without condemning her brothers to be swans forever, so she remains mute and is taken to be burned at the stake. The day this happens 7 years have passed and her brothers fly to her as swans. She throws the nettle cloaks at them, although usually one of the cloaks is not completely finished, and her brothers take human form again. One of the brothers is still left with a swan wing for an arm though. The stepmother's wicked ways are revealed, the child returned.

 

There are many swan maiden stories that GRRM can use: here's a link to several of them. The first of that link is about a hunter choosing the youngest of 7 swan maidens, hiding the feathers, until she gets her feathers back and flies off. He searches for her, far and wide, until he finally arrives at her father's castle, and the king tells him he can get his wife back if he can pick her from his seven daughters. They all look identical. But he knows his wife's fingers carries the mark of a "needle" because of her sowing clothes for their children. So, he looks at the fingers and picks her out on account of the dented mark of the needle.

 

But yes, the waif's story has swan maiden elements.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

 

Courtesans are not truly fanciful, expensive whores. They are mostly sought after for company and prestige, rather than sexual gratification. Where whores must please the client, it's the client who must please the courtesan. When inititally the kindly man includes the life of a courtesan as one of the alternative lives to Arya this means little to her. Westeros does not have courtesans. So, she does not really know what they are. Either she believes they are like "courtiers" or she might believe they are whores for the rich. But as Cat of the Canals she shows a particular curiosity and admiration for them. They are women of prestige, beauty and especially of independence. There is one passage in the books where she basically admires them in their barges and the description of "floating" reminds me very much of "swans".

 

Courtesans = swans is further hinted at in Jorah's backstory. Lynesse Hightower (from the South) was won by Jorah-bear, who brought her to his den at Bear Island, and she's miserable there. He impowerishes himself to get her jewerly, dresses and take her touring around Westeros, until he eventually attempts to sell poachers as slaves. He flees together with her to Lys, in the hope to hang on to her, and live as a sellsword, but eventually she becomes the prince's courtesan, and so powerful that even the prince's wife adhers to her.

 

I have no doubt that at some point Arya will be initiated into femininity by Braavos courtesans. Women have access to places and people where men cannot go. And courtesans have a greater freedom in movement then other women. She spies as Cat or Beth at the low end of commerce, and by the end of aDwD she's sent to a mummer's troupe, to train her acting skills. As a female agent she is bound to take residence with a Braavos courtesan for a while, to make her just as comfortable with elegant dress and such things. 

 

While courtesans are prevalent members of society in almost all of the Free Cities, including Braavos, they are non-existent in Westeros. And I think that's where the seven swan maidens sacrificed by the Andal king come in as well. The Andals brought with them the faith of 7, where the female only can be a mother, a maiden or a crone. None of these roles have active agency. The maiden has to be chaste and desired, the mother nurtures her children (and thus is a wife), the grandmother shares her wisdom. They are all roles that tie a woman to marriage and birthing heirs. And we see how especially the region between the Neck and Red Mountains view women in this way and look down on women who attempt to step outside of these roles - Brienne, the Mormont women, and Cersei is immensely frustrated by these restrictions since she was a child. While a courtesan is highly feminine, she is also very independent and of high status, though without husband, or children. Obviously the Andals were not keen on allowing women such independence and they rejected courtesans within their culture.

 

Courtesans were more than a showcase for prestige and opulence. In European courts from the Renaissance and until the 18th-19th centuries, courtesans were political 'tools', and they themselves were women with political appetite. They could actually be married, most cases to men of lower birth, in which case there presence at court were to elevate themselves and their husbands higher into society. 

(Interestingly enough, there was a very famous courtesan called Cora Pearl - she seems to have been the real version of the Black Pearl, or source of inspiration?). There are many examples of courtesans' political importance that have influenced the politics of kingdoms (such as France with Madame de Pompadour and others).

Also courtesans seem to have 'appeared' first in the city of Venice - which is apparently GRRM's inspiration for Braavos. 

 

Accordingly, if Arya was indeed to be initiated by courtesan, then it wouldn't only be for easing her transition into feminity, but also to help her understand women's tools and how to use them for political purposes (especially if you think that the FM have a further agenda on their own). 

 

I'd say that possibly, courtesans at the Westeros court could be replaced my Mistresses - but unfortunately, I do not have any famous mistress in mind at Westeros. 

[sweetsunray]

 

Courtesans were more than a showcase for prestige and opulence. In European courts from the Renaissance and until the 18th-19th centuries, courtesans were political 'tools', and they themselves were women with political appetite. They could actually be married, most cases to men of lower birth, in which case there presence at court were to elevate themselves and their husbands higher into society. 

(Interestingly enough, there was a very famous courtesan called Cora Pearl - she seems to have been the real version of the Black Pearl, or source of inspiration?). There are many examples of courtesans' political importance that have influenced the politics of kingdoms (such as France with Madame de Pompadour and others).

Also courtesans seem to have 'appeared' first in the city of Venice - which is apparently GRRM's inspiration for Braavos. 

 

Accordingly, if Arya was indeed to be initiated by courtesan, then it wouldn't only be for easing her transition into feminity, but also to help her understand women's tools and how to use them for political purposes (especially if you think that the FM have a further agenda on their own). 

 

I'd say that possibly, courtesans at the Westeros court could be replaced my Mistresses - but unfortunately, I do not have any famous mistress in mind at Westeros. 

 

Exactly! They had political influence, using women's tools.

 

From a more down to earth perspective, and mercenary, instead of a meta-mythological perspective... Why would the FM ever forego the chance on having a pretty girl, from higborn origin, who volunteers to become an assassin be trained in the female arts. They're not teaching her martial arts. They're telling her she has a pretty face, teaching her costume, to spy, to defend herself with a stick (but not murder with it), and poisons. And Mercy's chapters reeks of politics and economics.

[LmL]

There is indeed an evolution in the depiction of the Valkyries. In the eldest traditions they are old hags. Ravens are not as much birds of prey but carrion eaters, and thus prevalent at a battlefield. And they are Odin's eyes. But then the Valkyries become daughters and maidens - handsome women men lust after. And then they often get tied to the swan maiden motif. Wayland the Smith (Volundr) is still a telling of the Poetic Edda, which predates the Proze Edda, and it is in the Poetic Edda the 3 swan maidens the 3 brothers marry are identified as Valkyries. 
 
Swan maidens are not just like mermaids or syrens, but they represent the seasons. Ravens do not trek. Swans do. They leave for winter and return by spring. What does Arya do? She leaves Westeros by late fall, before Winter arrives. I therefore do not expect her back in Westeros before early spring, late winter when the thaw has set in (Jon's words in aGoT thus can be dismissed).
 
Courtesans are not truly fanciful, expensive whores. They are mostly sought after for company and prestige, rather than sexual gratification. Where whores must please the client, it's the client who must please the courtesan. When inititally the kindly man includes the life of a courtesan as one of the alternative lives to Arya this means little to her. Westeros does not have courtesans. So, she does not really know what they are. Either she believes they are like "courtiers" or she might believe they are whores for the rich. But as Cat of the Canals she shows a particular curiosity and admiration for them. They are women of prestige, beauty and especially of independence. There is one passage in the books where she basically admires them in their barges and the description of "floating" reminds me very much of "swans".
 
Courtesans = swans is further hinted at in Jorah's backstory. Lynesse Hightower (from the South) was won by Jorah-bear, who brought her to his den at Bear Island, and she's miserable there. He impowerishes himself to get her jewerly, dresses and take her touring around Westeros, until he eventually attempts to sell poachers as slaves. He flees together with her to Lys, in the hope to hang on to her, and live as a sellsword, but eventually she becomes the prince's courtesan, and so powerful that even the prince's wife adhers to her.
 
I have no doubt that at some point Arya will be initiated into femininity by Braavos courtesans. Women have access to places and people where men cannot go. And courtesans have a greater freedom in movement then other women. She spies as Cat or Beth at the low end of commerce, and by the end of aDwD she's sent to a mummer's troupe, to train her acting skills. As a female agent she is bound to take residence with a Braavos courtesan for a while, to make her just as comfortable with elegant dress and such things. 
 
While courtesans are prevalent members of society in almost all of the Free Cities, including Braavos, they are non-existent in Westeros. And I think that's where the seven swan maidens sacrificed by the Andal king come in as well. The Andals brought with them the faith of 7, where the female only can be a mother, a maiden or a crone. None of these roles have active agency. The maiden has to be chaste and desired, the mother nurtures her children (and thus is a wife), the grandmother shares her wisdom. They are all roles that tie a woman to marriage and birthing heirs. And we see how especially the region between the Neck and Red Mountains view women in this way and look down on women who attempt to step outside of these roles - Brienne, the Mormont women, and Cersei is immensely frustrated by these restrictions since she was a child. While a courtesan is highly feminine, she is also very independent and of high status, though without husband, or children. Obviously the Andals were not keen on allowing women such independence and they rejected courtesans within their culture.

This is one of those times when my astronomy research confirms a conclusion draw in an entirely different manner. The courtesans are indeed meant to be compared to swan maidens and mermaids - they are all in same general category of symbolism, at least in the way George has chosen to use them. Specifically, he's referring to the second moon - a goddes - which was drowned in the ocean, in the form of one of the meteors which came from the explosion. My new essay is partially about this (Language of Leviathan), but the relevant point here is the idea of a floating, submerged or drowned goddess. Look at the names of the courtesans - it's pretty rich for moon maiden drowning symbolism. The Grey King pulled down fire from heaven in the form of the lightning strike and the slaying of the sea dragon which drowns whole islands, and her took a mermaid to wife. Durran Godsgrief pulled down a goddess, who seems to be a sea goddess (daughter of sea and wind gods), dooming her to a mortal life.

What we are talking about here is this dual edged theme of birth and battle, of procreation and death. that's what's at the core of the Lightbringer myth - AA stabs Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer, but Lightbringer also represents a child, and Nissa's death symbolic of the bloody bed. Jon, who symbolizes Lightbringer, was born in this fashion: a dragon solar king figure (Rhaegar) impregnating, but also killing a moon maiden (Lyanna) to birth "Lightbringer." That's what's up with all the mothers of dragon pele who die in childbirth - it's this theme he's developing. In the myths I cited above, the marrying of the goddess is also mixed in with killing her. The mermaid that the Grey King takes to wife is the moon goddess he slew, and Durran's taking of Elenei doomed her to death.

 

ETA: I wrote about this concept of the dual-edged Lightbringer myth of birth and death in this essay, in case anyone is interested. I'm sorry to keep dropping links to my own stuff, but I fell like I have to be able to back up the wild claims that I make form time to time ;)  Frequently my astronomy / mythology research corroborates ideas in other people's theories, and I am always excited to share with people, but I end up having to try to explain a bunch of my own theory to make it intelligible... So I try to keep it short, but leave the link in case anyone is curious what the hell I am talking about. ;)  

 

It's cool to see you figuring out to associate the courtesans on the floating barges and the swan maiden concept. You should expand this line of inquiry to all the similar ideas - the swan maidens that Hukko the Andal slew, who may or may not be the same as Hugor Hill, who stars (heavenly bodies, gods, etc) pulled down to earth to give him divine authority, and married a magical maiden, who I believe has eyes like blue pools, or some other watery language. Ther'es the "six maidens in a pool" story about Maidenpool, there's even Petyr Baelish's Mockingbird - the mockingbird has stories of luring travelers to their doom with falsified sounds used to deceive, a bit like the siren-like version of a swan maiden. After that, you should examine all the mermaid / merman / selkie / squashers / Deep Ones stuff, I am fairly sure it's all connected. 

[Evolett]

Very interesting, this discussion on courtesans. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Lord Tytos Lannister's mistress, the common woman who acquired quite a lot of power before being brought down by Tywin after his father's death:

 

In their father’s final years, after their mother’s passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on matters of state. Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Tytos Lannister’s ear was between his lady’s legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother’s jewels.

Until the day their lord father’s heart had burst in his chest as he was ascending a steep flight of steps to her bed, that is. All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.

 

 

She essentially becomes a courtesan with a lot of influence over Tytos himself and bedecks herself with all the trappings of the trade, the jewellery etc. Her personal development and rise to power kind of mirror Cersei's own 'career' in many ways. Though highborn and properly married, Cersei exhibits all the elements associated with a courtesan, from choosing her lovers to building up a power base (using her lovers as pawns in the process). Even her punishment, the walk of shame, is a replica of Lord Tytos' mistresses, stripped naked and paraded through the town. 

 

Shae appears to be another example of this, a commoner who becomes the mistress of a member of the royal family. She also rises in status and is used to serve a political end. But Shae is different in many ways - she is used, she does not choose Tyrion, rather she is stolen from another man to serve Tyrion, who comes to love her, but is powerless to really protect her. She ends up betraying him and being killed by him, her murder evoking the Maegi's prophecy - death at the hands a little brother by strangling - strangled by the hands of a gold chain. 

 

I'm not that familiar with the swan maiden motif, but there appear to be two types. The swan maiden who chooses her destiny and is in control and the other who is forced into it / stumbles into it and is used for a political end. Both don't survive, at least not in the examples I've seen so far. Perhaphs Lady Olena and the powerful woman Jorah and Tyrion negotiate with for passage on a ship can be counted as swan maidens who successfully negotiate all the perils of living the life of a truely independent woman? Lady Olena chooses her own husband  (at least according to the show), she wields a lot of power behind the scenes, watches out for and promotes her daughter's interests etc. 

 

I also wonder if Sansa can also be thought of as an abused swan maiden. She starts off with all the qualities but has no idea how to use her beauty and charm to manipulate the people who use her to her advantage. Like Shae, she is 'stolen' by Littlefinger who introduces her to the world of scheming and manipulation. In the latest released chapter, we see that this extends to seduction, when he encourages her to wrap her betrothed round her little finger (lol). Many see this as a negative development but perhaps this is a good thing, good for Sansa in terms of survival and what is to come? Just thinking. 

[sweetsunray]

 

Very interesting, this discussion on courtesans. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned Lord Tytos Lannister's mistress, the common woman who acquired quite a lot of power before being brought down by Tywin after his father's death:

 

In their father’s final years, after their mother’s passing, their sire had taken the comely daughter of a candlemaker as mistress. It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on matters of state. Within a year she was dismissing servants, ordering about his household knights, even speaking for his lordship when he was indisposed. She grew so influential that it was said about Lannisport that any man who wished for his petition to be heard should kneel before her and speak loudly to her lap … for Tytos Lannister’s ear was between his lady’s legs. She had even taken to wearing their mother’s jewels.

Until the day their lord father’s heart had burst in his chest as he was ascending a steep flight of steps to her bed, that is. All the self-seekers who had named themselves her friends and cultivated her favor had abandoned her quickly enough when Tywin had her stripped naked and paraded through Lannisport to the docks, like a common whore. Though no man laid a hand on her, that walk spelled the end of her power. Surely Tywin would never have dreamed that same fate awaited his own golden daughter.

 

 

She essentially becomes a courtesan with a lot of influence over Tytos himself and bedecks herself with all the trappings of the trade, the jewellery etc. Her personal development and rise to power kind of mirror Cersei's own 'career' in many ways. Though highborn and properly married, Cersei exhibits all the elements associated with a courtesan, from choosing her lovers to building up a power base (using her lovers as pawns in the process). Even her punishment, the walk of shame, is a replica of Lord Tytos' mistresses, stripped naked and paraded through the town. 

 

Shae appears to be another example of this, a commoner who becomes the mistress of a member of the royal family. She also rises in status and is used to serve a political end. But Shae is different in many ways - she is used, she does not choose Tyrion, rather she is stolen from another man to serve Tyrion, who comes to love her, but is powerless to really protect her. She ends up betraying him and being killed by him, her murder evoking the Maegi's prophecy - death at the hands a little brother by strangling - strangled by the hands of a gold chain. 

 

I'm not that familiar with the swan maiden motif, but there appear to be two types. The swan maiden who chooses her destiny and is in control and the other who is forced into it / stumbles into it and is used for a political end. Both don't survive, at least not in the examples I've seen so far. Perhaphs Lady Olena and the powerful woman Jorah and Tyrion negotiate with for passage on a ship can be counted as swan maidens who successfully negotiate all the perils of living the life of a truely independent woman? Lady Olena chooses her own husband  (at least according to the show), she wields a lot of power behind the scenes, watches out for and promotes her daughter's interests etc. 

 

I also wonder if Sansa can also be thought of as an abused swan maiden. She starts off with all the qualities but has no idea how to use her beauty and charm to manipulate the people who use her to her advantage. Like Shae, she is 'stolen' by Littlefinger who introduces her to the world of scheming and manipulation. In the latest released chapter, we see that this extends to seduction, when he encourages her to wrap her betrothed round her little finger (lol). Many see this as a negative development but perhaps this is a good thing, good for Sansa in terms of survival and what is to come? Just thinking. 

 

Swan maiden motif

• very beautiful maidens that go bathing and take the "wings" off (skinchange), by 3 or 7
• hunter/ common man/king/prince spies them, falls in love at first sight (the hunter is the most common man)
• if it's one man, usually the youngest is preferred; if more more men, then as many men as there are maidens
• the feather dress is hidden so that the maiden can't skinchange anymore and is left alone while the sisters fly off
• the maiden agrees to wed the man
• but asks for her feathers; instead the man dons HIS coat on her (ding! ding! aSoIaF cloaking ceremony)
• they live together for several years, have children
• someone accidentally gives the feather dress back/maiden finds it
• swan maiden flies off
• man goes in search for them, or waits for their return
• if they're very lucky they find her, or she returns, and are reunited, but only after some recognition test

There are variations, like the Valkyrie swan maidens in Wayland the Smith legend who remain voluntarily for 7-9 years and there feathers are never hidden. They don't usually harm their husband, and they may be happy for years, but at some point it's "bye-bye see ya!"

 

And no, normally in folklore very very rarely something bad happens to the swan maidens.

 

The mistress examples you used - Tytos Lannister's mistress was forced to a walk of shame, but she was not killed. Sansa can be seen as a maiden that is kept captive, unhappy in her captivity (marriage, betrothal) and who disappears.

[sweetsunray]

This is one of those times when my astronomy research confirms a conclusion draw in an entirely different manner. The courtesans are indeed meant to be compared to swan maidens and mermaids - they are all in same general category of symbolism, at least in the way George has chosen to use them. Specifically, he's referring to the second moon - a goddes - which was drowned in the ocean, in the form of one of the meteors which came from the explosion. My new essay is partially about this (Language of Leviathan), but the relevant point here is the idea of a floating, submerged or drowned goddess. Look at the names of the courtesans - it's pretty rich for moon maiden drowning symbolism. The Grey King pulled down fire from heaven in the form of the lightning strike and the slaying of the sea dragon which drowns whole islands, and her took a mermaid to wife. Durran Godsgrief pulled down a goddess, who seems to be a sea goddess (daughter of sea and wind gods), dooming her to a mortal life.

What we are talking about here is this dual edged theme of birth and battle, of procreation and death. that's what's at the core of the Lightbringer myth - AA stabs Nissa Nissa to forge Lightbringer, but Lightbringer also represents a child, and Nissa's death symbolic of the bloody bed. Jon, who symbolizes Lightbringer, was born in this fashion: a dragon solar king figure (Rhaegar) impregnating, but also killing a moon maiden (Lyanna) to birth "Lightbringer." That's what's up with all the mothers of dragon pele who die in childbirth - it's this theme he's developing. In the myths I cited above, the marrying of the goddess is also mixed in with killing her. The mermaid that the Grey King takes to wife is the moon goddess he slew, and Durran's taking of Elenei doomed her to death.

 

ETA: I wrote about this concept of the dual-edged Lightbringer myth of birth and death in this essay, in case anyone is interested. I'm sorry to keep dropping links to my own stuff, but I fell like I have to be able to back up the wild claims that I make form time to time ;)  Frequently my astronomy / mythology research corroborates ideas in other people's theories, and I am always excited to share with people, but I end up having to try to explain a bunch of my own theory to make it intelligible... So I try to keep it short, but leave the link in case anyone is curious what the hell I am talking about. ;)

 

It's cool to see you figuring out to associate the courtesans on the floating barges and the swan maiden concept. You should expand this line of inquiry to all the similar ideas - the swan maidens that Hukko the Andal slew, who may or may not be the same as Hugor Hill, who stars (heavenly bodies, gods, etc) pulled down to earth to give him divine authority, and married a magical maiden, who I believe has eyes like blue pools, or some other watery language. Ther'es the "six maidens in a pool" story about Maidenpool, there's even Petyr Baelish's Mockingbird - the mockingbird has stories of luring travelers to their doom with falsified sounds used to deceive, a bit like the siren-like version of a swan maiden. After that, you should examine all the mermaid / merman / selkie / squashers / Deep Ones stuff, I am fairly sure it's all connected. 

 

Thank you for your contribution and the links ( ;)) . Yes, I looked at the names

 

• Black Swan... who was a niece Johanna Swann of the Lord Swann at the time. She practically became the ruler of Lys in all but name
• Black Pearl (we know the names of 3): she's one of the two courtesans the kindly man says he can send her to, Targ-summer isle and pirate descendant
• Veiled Lady. Only her lovers are allowed to see her face behind her veil.
• Merling Queen: has mermaids, maidens in the blush of their flowering. One apparently drowned and was replaced by a penniless girl, but lovely looking
• Moonshadow: wears only black and white, gave Dareon a kiss for his singing at the Moon Pool
• Daughter of the Dusk: she's one of the two courtesans the kindly man says he can send Arya to if she wishes it
• Nightingale
• Poetess: always with a book in hand

Not so incidentally, Lady Smallwood who gives Arya first an acorn dress and finally a purple one with baby pearls and calls her pretty at Acorn Hall is called Ravella Swann.

 

The swan maidens do tend to bathe at a certain time, either dusk, or before dawn. So, you can call them moon maidens, of the night. Yes, I mentioned the 7 swan maidens that the Andal king sacrificed near Pentos a few posts ago.

 

I touched upon the swan maiden stuff in my bear essay, with the ugly-duckling essay on Arya, because I explain there how Gendry is a hidden bear character, and the most well rounded at that in the books, and Arya basically is the maiden he attaches himself to, and that she's a swan maiden in particular, rounding back to the Wayland the Smith legend (as there the swan maidens are actual Valkyries). An important element about Wayland is that he has made his own magical sword, that later on gets coveted or passed on to other heroes. Wayland is a bear character. In the legend he appears as a man, but he lives alone in the forest after his swan wife flies off (aka wintertime) and he falls asleep (wintersleep) on a bear skin. She left him her wedding ring. And he forges new rings in copy of it all the time. Bears are lords/kings of the forest who don't hunt the game, but protect it. Wayland's sword symbolizes that protection, the rings protect the riches of to forest (aka game) itself. So, the ideal and complete bear is a warrior-smith. Bears were annually hunted, one per village, to gain the blessing of yearlong hunting success. This was a highly ritualized event, including the hunt and the aftermath (wedding + burrial), all to show respect to the bear spirit, placate it, and not invoke its revenge, as the revenge could turn especially on vulnerable maidens (beget them with child) and annihilate a male bloodline.

 

So, with Arya as swan maiden we already have a smith-warrior who becomes part of forest outlaws, falls for her, but she flies off. He protects orphans, but also helps in catching 'game' for the Brotherhood, and is forging his sword.

 

Not sure, but it might be helpful to look into some of that bear-stuff and tie with swan maidens, since of course a smith and a magical sword does ring a bell.

[Evolett]

 

Swan maiden motif

 

.. snip

 

Thanks for the summary :)

[LmL]

 
Thank you for your contribution and the links ( ;)) . Yes, I looked at the names
 

• Black Swan... who was a niece Johanna Swann of the Lord Swann at the time. She practically became the ruler of Lys in all but name
• Black Pearl (we know the names of 3): she's one of the two courtesans the kindly man says he can send her to, Targ-summer isle and pirate descendant
• Veiled Lady. Only her lovers are allowed to see her face behind her veil.
• Merling Queen: has mermaids, maidens in the blush of their flowering. One apparently drowned and was replaced by a penniless girl, but lovely looking
• Moonshadow: wears only black and white, gave Dareon a kiss for his singing at the Moon Pool
• Daughter of the Dusk: she's one of the two courtesans the kindly man says he can send Arya to if she wishes it
• Nightingale
• Poetess: always with a book in hand

Not so incidentally, Lady Smallwood who gives Arya first an acorn dress and finally a purple one with baby pearls and calls her pretty at Acorn Hall is called Ravella Swann.
 
The swan maidens do tend to bathe at a certain time, either dusk, or before dawn. So, you can call them moon maidens, of the night. Yes, I mentioned the 7 swan maidens that the Andal king sacrificed near Pentos a few posts ago.
 
I touched upon the swan maiden stuff in my bear essay, with the ugly-duckling essay on Arya, because I explain there how Gendry is a hidden bear character, and the most well rounded at that in the books, and Arya basically is the maiden he attaches himself to, and that she's a swan maiden in particular, rounding back to the Wayland the Smith legend (as there the swan maidens are actual Valkyries). An important element about Wayland is that he has made his own magical sword, that later on gets coveted or passed on to other heroes. Wayland is a bear character. In the legend he appears as a man, but he lives alone in the forest after his swan wife flies off (aka wintertime) and he falls asleep (wintersleep) on a bear skin. She left him her wedding ring. And he forges new rings in copy of it all the time. Bears are lords/kings of the forest who don't hunt the game, but protect it. Wayland's sword symbolizes that protection, the rings protect the riches of to forest (aka game) itself. So, the ideal and complete bear is a warrior-smith. Bears were annually hunted, one per village, to gain the blessing of yearlong hunting success. This was a highly ritualized event, including the hunt and the aftermath (wedding + burrial), all to show respect to the bear spirit, placate it, and not invoke its revenge, as the revenge could turn especially on vulnerable maidens (beget them with child) and annihilate a male bloodline.
 
So, with Arya as swan maiden we already have a smith-warrior who becomes part of forest outlaws, falls for her, but she flies off. He protects orphans, but also helps in catching 'game' for the Brotherhood, and is forging his sword.
 
Not sure, but it might be helpful to look into some of that bear-stuff and tie with swan maidens, since of course a smith and a magical sword does ring a bell.

Great Stuff. I've been meaning to comment on your bear stuff, because I've recently placed the bear in the astronomy picture. Your comments here reminded me of this - specifically what you said about the bear being the protector of the forest. I've identified the bear as a solar king archetype, but with a specific connotation, that of protection. The Old Bear Mormont is, I think, the archetype for the commander of the NW - a solar king, summer associated, forest protector, with ravens. The solar stag / Cerrunos / horned god / sacred order of green men archetype is pretty much the same thing. In ASOIAF, this is a greenseer human, probably one with the use of fire magic, but I'm still working the specifics of this.

What you said about Gendry is interesting - he's a bull character, obviously, but the solar bull is very similar to the solar stag - it's the embodiment of male virility. Robert Baratheon is draped in bull and stag symbolism, because George puts them in the same category. Gendry has his hammer, uniting him with the Thor / Mjolnir / thunderbolt symbolism. The important thing here is the connection to the Hammer of the Waters and the Storm God's thunderbolt which the Grey King tricked him into throwing. Of course I interpret all the fire from heaven which causes destruction as moon meteors (and I have specific evidence for each one, that's not just an assumption), so what I am seeing is that the implication that greenseers somehow caused the comet - moon explosion. We are also told that another magician, the Bloodstone Emperor, caused the Long Night through dark magic. I have connected the BSE to Azor Ahai - meaning that I think they are the same dude - and I have more recently been finding clues that Azor Ahai himself was a greenseer. That brings us right back to greenseer sorcerers causing the collision.

The lightning and thunder comes from the hammer of God - Aeron even refers to the pounding of the waves as the hammer of his god - but in ASOAIF, the hammer wielded is the solar King, who is associated with bulls, stags, bears, lions, and dragons (oh and boars too). This is the solar greenseer. He's a smith, because he wields the hammer and forges a sword. There's a great Gendry quote tying a lot of this together, I'm on mobile so I will add it in a minute...

 

Here it is, from AFFC, with my comments in red:

 

There was life at the crossroads inn, though. Even before they reached the gate, Brienne heard the sound: a hammering, faint but steady. It had a steely ring. ("ring" = think of a solar crown, specifically a black iron crown such as Euron Crows Eye wears and the Barrow King wore, King of Winter, etc) “A forge,” Ser Hyle said. “Either they have themselves a smith, or the old innkeep’s ghost is making another iron dragon.”

 

This is a reference to the inn of the clanking dragon, who had a black iron dragon sign made of multiple pieces - it was smashed and thrown into the river (just like the sea dragon moon meteor, a meteor strike which fell in the ocean and was remembered as the sea dragon which slays whole islands in her wroth). When George talks about a ghost smith making ANOTHER iron dragon, this is a reference to the comet's return, and in my prediction, a foreshadowing of the comet hitting the remaining moon to trigger the new Long Night. This new iron dragon will be a new version of the Hammer of the Waters, of the "hammer of the gods" - and it's being made by either a "ghost smith,"or Gendry. Now read on...

 

 

“Worse?” Brienne asked. “Thieves,” said a boy’s voice from the stables. “Robbers.” Brienne turned, and saw a ghost. Renly. No hammerblow to the heart could have felled her half so hard. “My lord?” she gasped. “Lord?” The boy pushed back a lock of black hair that had fallen across his eyes. “I’m just a smith.”

 

Gendry is both a smith and a ghost, we're being told here. That's because the ghost smith who is making another iron dragon is the hammer wielder. The solar king. That's why the "Lord" reference here -  the solar king archetype is a god-human, after a fashion. This also has to do with the concept of the God's Eye, but that's too complex to explain here.

 

 Brienne is a moon maiden, the Nissa Nissa archetype, so when she sees the solar king, it's a "hammer blow" to her heart. 

 

 

 

Brienne sucked in her breath and drew Oathkeeper. (a Lightbringer symbol) Too many, she thought, with a start of fear, they are too many. “Gendry,” she said in a low voice, “you’ll want a sword, and armor. These are not your friends. They’re no one’s friends.”

 

“What are you talking about?” The boy came and stood beside her, his hammer in his hand. Lightning cracked (notice the phrase "lightning cracked" appears directly after the "hammer in his hand" phrase... ;)) to the south as the riders swung down off their horses. For half a heartbeat darkness turned to day. An axe gleamed silvery blue, light shimmered off mail and plate, and beneath the dark hood of the lead rider Brienne glimpsed an iron snout and rows of steel teeth, snarling. …

 

The door to the inn banged open. Willow stepped out into the rain, a crossbow in her hands. The girl was shouting at the riders, but a clap of thunder rolled across the yard, drowning out her words.

 

This is basically a good portion of the rest of the picture here of the hammer falling - floods are involved, of course, as with a large meteor impact on the water, and so there's a "drowning" reference after the clap of thunder. 

 

[LmL]

There's a similar passage from TPATQ. When Lucerys, son of Rhaenyra, comes to Storm's End (Baratheon, stag and hammer) to try to win Lord Borros over to Rhaenyra's cause, he runs into prince Aemon "one-eye" Targaryen, rider of the huge and terrifying dragon Vhagar. There's a confrontation, and Aemond wants to fight Lucerys. Lord Baratheon forbids it "inside of his walls," but says to Aemond (whose side he is taking) that he is free to do what he wishes outside of his castle. So the younger Lucerys flees on his smaller dragon, while Aemond One-eye come in pursuit. This occurs during a terrible thunderstorm.

 

First, Lucerys's arrival:

 

Prince Aemond’s mighty dragon Vhagar sensed his coming first. Guardsman walking the battlements of the castle’s mighty curtain walls clutched their spears in sudden terror when she woke, with a roar that shook the very foundations of Durran’s Defiance. Even Arrax quailed before that sound, we are told, and Luke plied his whip freely as he forced him down.

Lightning was flashing to the east and a heavy rain falling as Lucerys leapt off his dragon, his mother’s message clutched in his hand. He must surely have known what Vhagar’s presence meant, so it would have come as no surprise when Aemond Targaryen confronted him in the Round Hall, before the eyes of Lord Borros, his four daughters, septon, and maester, and two score knights, guards, and servants.

 

Now, the princes flee:

 

Outside, the storm was raging. Thunder rolled across the castle, the rain fell in blinding sheets, and from time to time great bolts of blue-white lightning lit the world as bright as day. It was bad weather for flying, even for a dragon, and Arrax was struggling to stay aloft when Prince Aemond mounted Vhagar and went after him. Had the sky been calm, Prince Lucerys might have been able to outfly his pursuer, for Arrax was younger and swifter … but the day was black, (Long Night reference) and so it came to pass that the dragons met above Shipbreaker Bay. Watchers on the castle walls saw distant blasts of flame, and heard a shriek cut the thunder. Then the two beasts were locked together, lightning crackling around them. Vhagar was five times the size of her foe, the hardened survivor of a hundred battles. If there was a fight, it could not have lasted long.

Arrax fell, broken, to be swallowed by the storm-lashed waters of the bay. His head and neck washed up beneath the cliffs below Storm’s End three days later, to make a feast for crabs and seagulls. Prince Lucerys’s corpse washed up as well.

 

And with his death, the war of ravens and envoys and marriage pacts came to an end, and the war of fire and blood began in earnest."

 

This is a sea dragon reference here - the dead dragon falling into the bay, and washing up onshore to be a feast for crabs. You'll recall that the greasy black stone Seastone Chair - which I think is a moon meteor, the thing remembered as a sea dragon - was found on the shore of Old Wyck. The Grey king supposedly made a Longhall on Old Wyck from the sea dragon's bones, and there his warriors "had feasted on the bounty of the sea at a table in the shape of a great starfish.." And to complete the image, the Ironborn themselves say they are closer kin to fish and crabs than men. So, essentially, the lighting fell and dragons fell - it's the same thing. The sea dragon became a feast for the Ironborn, who made every kind of use of the black iron as possible. 

This is why the Ironborn myths are so cool - they are all telling the same story, in a twisted up way. The sea dragon and the lightning bolt both refer to the fire falling from heaven. The trees burning and islands drowning as a result of these two fires from heaven are the destruction caused by the impact. Meanwhile, he takes a mermaid to wife, as I mentioned - that's a reference to the moon goddess which drowned in the sea, and our mermaid / swan maiden motif. As I was saying, Durran Godsgrief's story is very similar - he takes something from heaven, a sea maiden Elenei (whose name has phonetic roots suggesting mermaid-ness also), and this triggered an incredibly violent storm. That's because the breaking of the arm of Dorne - the Hammer of the Waters - also happened at the same time. That was a moon meteor too, as as you've seen the hammer is intimately connected with the lighting and the rest of the ironborn myth. The breaking of the arm of Dorne would have indeed sent huge tsunamis up the Narrow Sea, which previously would have been the southern extent of the shivering sea. So the Durran story is true, more or less - the stealing of a moon goddess and her drowning in the ocean caused a high storm which killed a lot of people. 

 

So, the greenseer connection. Durran is a Baratheon, which means he is a stag-person, so that's our horned god imagery. Durran and the Grey king are both alleged to have lived for a thousand years, interestingly (the only other claim of a 1,000year life span is the god emperor of the Great Empire of the Dawn, fwiw). So he's clearly god-like, and associated with stags and hammers and stealing goddesses and causing storms. 

​Now, the Grey King. He sat in a throne made from nagga's jaws, and his long hall was built from her bones. Thing is, everyone has figured out that those pale stone "pillars" are actually petrified weirwoods. The clues of this are abundant, and I won't cite them here to save time, but that's pretty much common knowledge I would think. Anyway, picture the grey King, who lived to be a thousand "until his very skin had tuned as grey as his hair and his beard." He sits on a throne of weirwood, inside a circle of 44 weirwood trees. His crown is wood also - given that his throne is weirwood, a wooden crown suggest weirwood roots snaking around the head of a greenseer, like Bloodraven. 

 

The Grey King is another greenseer king who called down the fire from heaven by slaying the moon goddess, causing great floods and devastation, and he also took a mermaid to wife. It's the same damn story. 

​Now, what I think we have here with the Grey King is either two opposite characters or one character who turned to evil. The above evidence suggests that he was a greenseer king, sitting on a weirwood throne in a weirwood circle. Bran's last ADWD chapter tells us that greenseers can access weirwoodnet even when not sitting in their trees - so imagine human greenseers who can sit in their weirwood thrones, but also get up and go to war if they wish, still having access to the weirnet. Terrifying! Yet, I think this was a thing. The Marsh Kings of the Crannogmen were chosen for the greensight ability - so we KNOW human greenseer kings existed there at least. The Grey King, as I have mentioned. Durran Godsgrief would be one too, according to the archetype. The King of Winter were at least skinchanger kings, with their wolves, and I suspect it went farther.  Garth Gardener sat on a throne of living oak (not weirwood, but still, living tree throne) and wore a crown of vines and leaves (when at peace). Sounds a bit greenseer-ish to me, and there are more clues along these lines (the stories of original Highgarden as a living city, greenseer children of Garth the Green, etc.)

 

When at war, the Gardener kings wore crowns of black iron, and later bronze - sounds a bit like the King of Winter bronze and iron crown, and the barrow king / First King's iron crown. Later Ironborn kings wear a black iron crown, as does Euron. I mention this because there's this implication of going from green to black, from nature friendly to nature-unfriendly. I have been raging all along that the children of the forest did not and would not call down the Hammer of the Waters - i think it must have been human greenseers abusing their magical gifts that cdid this, and probably created the Others as well. And here we have signs of these greenseer kings, humans using greenseer magic to subjugate others... and getting back to the Grey King, this greenseer king who called down the fire from heaven, he then turns against the trees - he kills Ygg, the "demon tree", which is obviously a weirwood and an Yggdrasil reference, and the lightning bolt of the Storm God which gave the Grey King possession of fire also set fire to a tree. Of course the 44 tree weirwood circle on the iron islands - the biggest weir circle we've seen anywhere - is now long dead, so again, something happened there. There used to be an ancient weirwood worshipping culture, but it ended a long time ago.

 

What we are left with is the same story - greenseer human sorcerers causing a lot of damn trouble. Dropping the hammer, calling the lighting, forging iron dragons and Lightbringer, killing and drowning moon maidens, possibly siring new lineages of hybrid humans... these human greenseers are the most important missing piece of the Dawn Age puzzle, imo. They are directly linked to Garth the Green, the Isle of faces, the sacred order of green men, and garth the Green. 

​Oh, and Coldhands. Definitely Coldhands. Have you noticed the similarity between Coldhands and Mormont? Both with the Odin like ravens on their shoulders. Why does Mormont have a raven, anyway? He's not a maester. Ever wondered about that? It's because he is the "old bear /solar king," and that's heavily based off of Odin. Bloodraven goes all the way, being "hung on the tree" to "see the runes" and receive the gift of astral projection and magical sight. But the first members of the Nightswatch, I think, were all greenseers or horned green men. And they might have been undead, like Coldhands. 

That's probably enough for now. ;)

 

ETA: one more thing: Beric. He's the "lightning lord" and the defender of the people. He's got one eye (like Odin), sits in a weirwood throne of a sort, and has a flaming sword. He hangs out near the God's Eye, and he's loyal to king Robert. Is this making sense? Greenseer lord, associated with lightning and burning swords and having one eye... and being undead, as I mentioned... 

 

This is what the hound says to Beric in the weirwood cave:

 

“Rocks and trees and rivers, that’s what your realm is made of,” the Hound was saying. “Do the rocks need defending?

 

Ah ha, so Beric's kingdom is that of a greenseer: rocks and trees and rivers. And he defends them, just like your bear archetype. ;)

[LmL]

Wow, was it something I said? What happened to this thread?  :dunno:

[sweetsunray]

Wow, was it something I said? What happened to this thread?  :dunno:

 

You said great stuff!!!! But I'm prepping for my finals next week :) I'll come back to deeper discussion soon. So, if I post not so much myself on further expansion, it's for RL reasons.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

Wow, was it something I said? What happened to this thread?  :dunno:

 

Nothing you said ;)

 

I was more thinking Arya/courtesan. If Arya was indeed sent to learn with a courtesan, then I think it would actually go against her role as "chooser of the slain". Given the political role of courtesan and the scheming, it would corrupt her instinctive sense of justice. 

From what as been said, Valkyries did not take part in politics. So Arya would only need to be aware of the political scheming so she can shield herself from it. Would there really be a need of training with a courtesan to really learn about political scheming? I don't think so. 

Also, I doubt the FM would view Arya as the "chooser of slain" and use her as a tool in the same time. If they put so much importance in the role Arya is thought to have, then she would be listened to, followed, and protected. Not used as a common piece of the game. 

(I didn't dare post it though, since I feel it is not much in relation with the thoughts you expressed, but merely a continuation of a rapid exchange on the previous page I believe, about the role of courtesans). 

 

 

You said great stuff!!!! But I'm prepping for my finals next week :) I'll come back to deeper discussion soon. So, if I post not so much myself on further expansion, it's for RL reasons.

 

Good luck for your finals!

[Meera of Tarth]

 

Wow, was it something I said? What happened to this thread?   :dunno:

I'm following this thread too, but I can't contribute with something interesting, because my knowledge is limited. :O :O

 

@sweetsunray

 

Good luck with your exams!

 

 

 

 

 

I was more thinking Arya/courtesan. If Arya was indeed sent to learn with a courtesan, then I think it would actually go against her role as "chooser of the slain". Given the political role of courtesan and the scheming, it would corrupt her instinctive sense of justice. 

From what as been said, Valkyries did not take part in politics. So Arya would only need to be aware of the political scheming so she can shield herself from it. Would there really be a need of training with a courtesan to really learn about political scheming? I don't think so. 

Also, I doubt the FM would view Arya as the "chooser of slain" and use her as a tool in the same time. If they put so much importance in the role Arya is thought to have, then she would be listened to, followed, and protected. Not used as a common piece of the game. 

(I didn't dare post it though, since I feel it is not much in relation with the thoughts you expressed, but merely a continuation of a rapid exchange on the previous page I believe, about the role of courtesans). 

 

 

Oh, I don't think it would corrupt her, if she is prepared for learning about the other spheres of incluence.  However, I can't imagine Arya as a courtesan. But anything is possible, she is shaving her head to become anyone, and been good in her tasks, so if they asked her to do it, she would.

 

[Evolett]

 

I was more thinking Arya/courtesan. If Arya was indeed sent to learn with a courtesan, then I think it would actually go against her role as "chooser of the slain". Given the political role of courtesan and the scheming, it would corrupt her instinctive sense of justice. 

From what as been said, Valkyries did not take part in politics. So Arya would only need to be aware of the political scheming so she can shield herself from it. Would there really be a need of training with a courtesan to really learn about political scheming? I don't think so. 

Also, I doubt the FM would view Arya as the "chooser of slain" and use her as a tool in the same time. If they put so much importance in the role Arya is thought to have, then she would be listened to, followed, and protected. Not used as a common piece of the game. 

(I didn't dare post it though, since I feel it is not much in relation with the thoughts you expressed, but merely a continuation of a rapid exchange on the previous page I believe, about the role of courtesans). 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I think Arya is already politically savvy enough to understand the mechanisms of politics. She learned a lot on the road and especially at Harrenhal. As Roose's cupbearer, she was party to a lot of meetings and talk not really meant for her ears. All those chapters show the learning process she goes through in this regard. What she lacks however, is femininity and how to use 'female guile' to her advantage. She's a typical tomboy who hates dressing up properly, doesn't mind living with fleas and can make do with the occasional bath. There are hints she could be as beautiful as Lyanna, if only she would cultivate her feminine side actively. This is what she would learn from the courtesans. I think appearance will be an important part of her future missions. As a woman, you won't get past the door-steps of the high and mighty looking like a drab. Courtesans accompany their clients to important places, they probably have access to locations and information barred to others. I think the point would be teaching her to dress like a lady, refresh her 'curtesies', the art of seduction, develop the woman in her and teach her to use all this to her advantage. This doesn't mean she'll have to prostitute herself - it's simply a means to an end. She already resorts to using the promise of sex to lure Raff to his doom but Raff is what he is, Riff-Raff. She'll need to do better than that to reach more important clientelle. 

[Evolett]

Good luck with your exams, sweetsunray :)

[A-Faceless-Woman]

 

Oh, I don't think it would corrupt her, if she is prepared for learning about the other spheres of incluence.  However, I can't imagine Arya as a courtesan. But anything is possible, she is shaving her head to become anyone, and been good in her tasks, so if they asked her to do it, she would.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually, I think Arya is already politically savvy enough to understand the mechanisms of politics. She learned a lot on the road and especially at Harrenhal. As Roose's cupbearer, she was party to a lot of meetings and talk not really meant for her ears. All those chapters show the learning process she goes through in this regard. What she lacks however, is femininity and how to use 'female guile' to her advantage. She's a typical tomboy who hates dressing up properly, doesn't mind living with fleas and can make do with the occasional bath. There are hints she could be as beautiful as Lyanna, if only she would cultivate her feminine side actively. This is what she would learn from the courtesans. I think appearance will be an important part of her future missions. As a woman, you won't get past the door-steps of the high and mighty looking like a drab. Courtesans accompany their clients to important places, they probably have access to locations and information barred to others. I think the point would be teaching her to dress like a lady, refresh her 'curtesies', the art of seduction, develop the woman in her and teach her to use all this to her advantage. This doesn't mean she'll have to prostitute herself - it's simply a means to an end. She already resorts to using the promise of sex to lure Raff to his doom but Raff is what he is, Riff-Raff. She'll need to do better than that to reach more important clientelle. 

 

In a way, I couldn't agree more with what you said. But so far she's acted on orders from the FM, or the 3 names she had from Jaqen where from before Roose at Harrenhal (and her "introduction to politics"). 

I guess my point is that, if she learns to effectively use politics and her feminity to her own advantage (without prostituting herself), then she could see the temptation in using those assets to her own ends (i.e. she would me more tempted to scheme and kill for her own ends).

As Arya, Weasel, Arry, and all of her aliases, her feminity wasn't an asset for survival. If she sees how her feminity can be used in a way to achieve what she wishes, then she'd be tempted to 'go rogue'. Politics, in this kind of era, was rarely for the greater good, but just a way to achieve more and more power. I doubt that a Braavosi courtesan would scheme for the greater good. I might be wrong, but a courtesan would want to pull strings in the highest sphere of influence for herself to have more power and a more 'stable' situation. As Roose's cupbearer, Arya saw politics from a man point of view. As a courtesan's help, she'd see politics in a female perspective. I think it's arguable to say if a courtesan wouldn't compromise or corrupt herself in politics - she'd have to offer something more than a man to achieve the same goal. We do not have many examples of women being politically successful, and the ones we do have do not seem to be innocent, or at least uncorrupted. So I think Arya would be more tempted by corruption than ever before. 

The Chooser of the Slain shouldn't be choosing 'targets' that would be a mean to achieve something advantageous for themselves. She should have the most objective point of view anyone could have on who should die. Maybe, then, being taught by courtesans would be another kind of "test" - she would succeed if she stays politically neutral and keep the way of a maiden. 

[Evolett]

I see what you mean. Hmm. Trying to think of someone who is comparable to Arya. So far, all the Pompadur type courtesans we see are rags to riches and power women, or let's say, used all their feminine attributes to ensnare their targets. Cersei is high born but also resorts to sex to achieve her goals. I think if there's anyone that can serve as a good example and parallel for Arya in the role of a non-prostituting, but feminine and seductive politically savvy woman, it's the Queen of Thorns, Lady Olena. She is high born, like Arya, and just as prickly, married and probably the mind behind the scenes. I'd have to go over chapters featuring her but seem to recall that she was an attractive young lady. Even the name is a connection to Arya - Queen of Thorns, a rose sigil, evoking Lyanna. And Renly's odd notion that Margery resembles Lyanna. 

Don't worry, there's hope, I would say :)

[LmL]

^^^ that's an interesting comparison Evolett. The monicker fits. And the Queen of Thorns did carry out the most badass assassination in the story, killing King on the day he married her granddaughter using a poison amethyst in a hairnet, all the while framing Tyrion and completely obscuring her own trail. That's pretty high level assassination. And remember the QoT response to Arya's pronouncement that Joffrey is indeed a monster - it was something like "well that's too bad." As if the kitchens were out of cheese or something. Thats cold, and it reflects a high level of confidence in her abilities.

[Meera of Tarth]

@A-Faceless-Woman

 

I see your point about being tempted. If she were to surpass her abilities, then she wouldn't be the Valkyrie she is supposed to be. On the contrary, who knows if she would be doing "selfish" or "unfair" choices, and her hunger for revenge could go even further.

There will be a crucial moment when she will know, by instinct, what "justice" is, and then she won't be temped anymore. (If this theory turns out to be true)

 

 

I think that she should go to that world very prepared, and having learned a lot, and the FM are the ones who are testing her all the time. They are the only ones who know at which point of her training  she is.

 

Maybe asking her to be a courtesan would be a test (as you have said) of her current level. But I also think that they wouldn't take the risk before they are sure she is prepared for that mission(mentally).