The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn

[sweetsunray]

POST on WATER DANCING

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Syrio "Just so. Now we will begin the dance. Remember, child, this is not the iron dance of Westeros we are learning, the knight's dance, hacking and hammering, no. This is the bravo's dance, the water dance, swift and sudden. All men are made of water, do you know this? When you pierce them, the water leaks out and they die." (Arya II, aGoT)

So, this says that Water Dancing is the bravo's dance. It's a fighting style. But if there's a Swan Lake link it means it is certainly to take place in or involving Braavos. Note that Syrio declares Arya II, in KL, is where her Swan Lake ballet story BEGINS.

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Illyrio to Varys: "You have danced the dance before, my friend." He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. (Arya III, aGoT)

Illyrio we learn later was once a bravo fighter, and thus a water dancer. Arya notes that though he's really really fat, he walks like a water dance... she particularly notes how he uses his feet, what part he walks on. The balls of the feet means he doesn' tput his weight on his heels, but the front of his feet, more like a ballet dancer.

 

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On the way back to his chambers, he came upon his daughter Arya on the winding steps of the Tower of the Hand, windmilling her arms as she struggled to balance on one leg. The rough stone had scuffed her bare feet. Ned stopped and looked at her. "Arya, what are you doing?"

"Syrio says a water dancer can stand on one toe for hours." Her hands flailed at the air to steady herself.

Ned had to smile. "Which toe?" he teased.

"Any toe." (Eddard V, aGoT)

 

 

Arya stands on her toes, on one leg. This is indeed reminiscint of ballet. Ballet dancers learn to stand upright, balanced without falling, on the tip of their toes, often on one leg. It's explicity linked to the water dancing. So, "water dancing" = "ballet" and Swan Lake is a ballet. It wasn't a pre-existing story that was adapted into a ballet like say Sleeping Beauty. It was written to be performed as a ballet. And only afterwards depicted in other art forms.

 

 

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At the end she was knee-deep in foul-smelling water, wishing she could dance upon it as Syrio might have, and wondering if she'd ever see light again. It was full dark when finally Arya emerged into the night air.

She found herself standing at the mouth of a sewer where it emptied into the river. She stank so badly that she stripped right there, dropping her soiled clothing on the riverbank as she dove into the deep black waters. She swam until she felt clean, and crawled out shivering. Some riders went past along the river road as Arya was washing her clothes, but if they saw the scrawny naked girl scrubbing her rags in the moonlight, they took no notice. (Arya III, aGoT)

 

 

Here we get the image of water dancing ON water. That is what the swan ballet dancers do... the ballet is a dance as the swans dancing ON the water.

 

We have the night connection. Odette can only take her human form at night. That is her curse. The scene also coincides with the general swan maiden motif who strip their swan wings and feathers to take the form of a beautiful maiden in order to swim. Only in Swan Lake the maidens can do it only at night. In the other swan maiden stories it's a reverse tale... the swan maiden's feathers are stolen and she can't return to swan form, but forced to remain in human form, until they discover where there feathers are hidden.

 

And then we have a sorcerer who collects "birds"

 

I

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llyrio to Varys: "You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

"What I can do, I will," the one with the torch said softly. "I must have gold, and another fifty birds." (Arya III, aGoT)

 

Arya to her father: "The fat one said the princess was with child. The one in the steel cap, he had the torch, he said that they had to hurry. I think he was a wizard."

"A wizard," said Ned, unsmiling. "Did he have a long white beard and tall pointed hat speckled with stars?"

"No! It wasn't like Old Nan's stories. He didn't look like a wizard, but the fat one said he was." (Arya III, aGoT)

 

 

Varys here is represented as Rothbard. And Ned also thinks of him as a "magician"

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"Varys?" he said groggily when it came. He touched the man's face. "I'm not … not dreaming this. You're here." The eunuch's plump cheeks were covered with a dark stubble of beard. Ned felt the coarse hair with his fingers. Varys had transformed himself into a grizzled turnkey, reeking of sweat and sour wine. "How did you … what sort of magician are you?" (Eddard XV, aGoT)

And then for aGoT, we have the Horned Moon dancing on the water of the moat of the Gates of the Moon, which I always saw as an ominous sign in relation to the location there (see Sansa and the Giants prediciton). But a moat is where usually Swans swim on the water around a castle.

 

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Even so, it was full dark before they reached the stout castle that stood at the foot of the Giant's Lance. Torches flickered atop its ramparts, and the horned moon danced upon the dark waters of its moat. The drawbridge was up and the portcullis down, but Catelyn saw lights burning in the gatehouse and spilling from the windows of the square towers beyond.

"The Gates of the Moon," her uncle said as the party drew rein.

 

 

So we have the dancing element, a moat where usually swans swim, and moon/night symbolism, which links Swan maidens with Moon maidens. And in Swan Lake it is the moonlight, or the night in which the Swans can take on their identity again. I think this suggests that it is during the Long Night that Sansa and Arya have their identities revealed to at least one important person who will attempt to save them, from the disguise situation and captivity (in a metaphorical or physical form).

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

darnit lost a post of gathered quotes

I'm from Antwerp So, yup, I know Dutch

Ah...  Een Vlaamse schone ik woon in Maastricht,  dat noemen ze wannabe Belgen boven de rivieren

52 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

POST on WATER DANCING

So, this says that Water Dancing is the bravo's dance. It's a fighting style. But if there's a Swan Lake link it means it is certainly to take place in or involving Braavos. Note that Syrio declares Arya II, in KL, is where her Swan Lake ballet story BEGINS.

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It's also interesting that Syrio says that she doesn't need to learn the Iron (manly) dance of hacking and hammering,  the side she's already developed,  but she needs to learn the more graceful dance (of femininity). 

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Illyrio we learn later was once a bravo fighter, and thus a water dancer. Arya notes that though he's really really fat, he walks like a water dance... she particularly notes how he uses his feet, what part he walks on. The balls of the feet means he doesn' tput his weight on his heels, but the front of his feet, more like a ballet dancer.

I wonder how Illyrio being grossly fat fits into the ballet motif. Perhaps it means that although he still walks lightly,  can't actually dance the dance anymore... 

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Arya stands on her toes, on one leg. This is indeed reminiscint of ballet. Ballet dancers learn to stand upright, balanced without falling, on the tip of their toes, often on one leg. It's explicity linked to the water dancing. So, "water dancing" = "ballet" and Swan Lake is a ballet. It wasn't a pre-existing story that was adapted into a ballet like say Sleeping Beauty. It was written to be performed as a ballet. And only afterwards depicted in other art forms.

This was the scene which made ballet connection to me. In one of her Braavos chapters Arya is also wearing shoes that pinch her toes,  reminiscent of pointe.

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Here we get the image of water dancing ON water. That is what the swan ballet dancers do... the ballet is a dance as the swans dancing ON the water.

 

Quote

We have the night connection. Odette can only take her human form at night. That is her curse. The scene also coincides with the general swan maiden motif who strip their swan wings and feathers to take the form of a beautiful maiden in order to swim. Only in Swan Lake the maidens can do it only at night. In the other swan maiden stories it's a reverse tale... the swan maiden's feathers are stolen and she can't return to swan form, but forced to remain in human form, until they discover where there feathers are hidden.

Yes,  but the water is dirty,  and the riders took no notice of her,  indicating she's still the ugly little duckling,  and no swan (princess) yet. 

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And then we have a sorcerer who collects "birds"

 

Varys here is represented as Rothbard. And Ned also thinks of him as a "magician"

Good find! The cool thing is that Rothbard turns into am owl,  which is a bird of wisdom,  or knowledge. Varys's trade happens to be knowledge! 

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And then for aGoT, we have the Horned Moon dancing on the water of the moat of the Gates of the Moon, which I always saw as an ominous sign in relation to the location there (see Sansa and the Giants prediciton). But a moat is where usually Swans swim on the water around a castle.

 

 

So we have the dancing element, a moat where usually swans swim, and moon/night symbolism, which links Swan maidens with Moon maidens. And in Swan Lake it is the moonlight, or the night in which the Swans can take on their identity again. I think this suggests that it is during the Long Night that Sansa and Arya have their identities revealed to at least one important person who will attempt to save them, from the disguise situation and captivity (in a metaphorical or physical form).

Interesting. I personally think that Sansa will save herself,  gaining a bit of hero characteristics, and breaking free of her little bird's cage,  while Arya will have to be saved by a hero,  gaining some of maiden qualities . 

 

Another interesting connection is that Sam is being saved from drowning by a summer islander in a feather cloak, shortly after meeting Arya, who happens to save him from water dancers... 

[sweetsunray]

LAKES

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Despondent, she climbed off her horse and knelt by the lake. The water lapped softly around her legs. A few lantern bugs were coming out, their little lights blinking on and off. The green water was warm as tears, but there was no salt in it. It tasted of summer and mud and growing things. Arya plunged her face down into it to wash off the dust and dirt and sweat of the day. When she leaned back the trickles ran down the back of her neck and under her collar. They felt good. She wished she could take off her clothes and swim, gliding through the warm water like an skinny pink otter. Maybe she could swim all the way to Winterfell. (Arya IV, aCoK)

They don't taste of tears (salty) but the water is warm like tears. She associates it with summer, growing. It's an image of washing off the dust and dirt from a "journey". She wants to swim, take her clothes off. And she thinks of home. Arya of course can't take her clothes of, because she's in "disguise". But it does suggest that WF beckons or might be there for her after the Winter.

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To the east, Gods Eye was a sheet of sun-hammered blue that filled half the world. Some days, as they made their slow way up the muddy shore (Gendry wanted no part of any roads, and even Hot Pie and Lommy saw the sense in that), Arya felt as though the lake were calling her. She wanted to leap into those placid blue waters, to feel clean again, to swim and splash and bask in the sun. But she dare not take off her clothes where the others could see, not even to wash them. At the end of the day she would often sit on a rock and dangle her feet in the cool water. (Arya V, aCoK)

Again we have Arya wishing she could swim and shed her disguise, by day (when Odette can't shed her wings).

Arya sees swans on the lake, 3, and she wishes she's a swan (in the Bear thread I use the follownig quote in relation to the Ugly Duckling too). Note: the swans she sees are BLACK swans.

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Thirty yards from shore, three black swans were gliding over the water, so serene . . . no one had told them that war had come, and they cared nothing for burning towns and butchered men. She stared at them with yearning. Part of her wanted to be a swan. The other part wanted to eat one. (Arya V, aCoK)

But in disguise, Arya is like Odette in disguise, already a swan. Only at night can she shed her disguise and be her true self.

Funny note on disguises princes

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Yesterday Gendry had caught a frog and shared it with Lommy

Of course HH can be regarded as one of those castles where Arya is held captive, like Odette is held captive at the lake of Rothbard's castle

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It was another long day's march before they glimpsed the towers of Harrenhal in the distance, hard beside the blue waters of the lake. (Arya VI, aCoK)

SWAN COMBO REFERENCES

First swan reference is "white swan ship" of the "Summer Isles". So, swans are linked to "summer". We see this link reappear again when Arya arrives in Braavos. Here the white swan of summer is overtaken by a "storm dancer"

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A high-masted swan ship from the Summer Isles was beating out from port, its white sails huge with wind. The Storm Dancer moved past it, pulling steadily for shore. (Catelyn IV, aGoT)

There's House Swann: showing a black and white swan on the shield. Not only do we meet Balon Swann who ends up wearing the white of KG, there's also Lady Smallwood where the tree maiden song is sung of Acorn Hall, who is called Ravella Swann from birth. She is a swan lady, and she calls Arya pretty.

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"Ser Balon Swann, of Stonehelm in the Red Watch," came the herald's cry. Wide white wings ornamented Ser Balon's greathelm, and black and white swans fought on his shield. (Sansa I, aCoK)

Tyrion eats a swan.

 

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"We still hold Sansa," he corrected her, "and we had best take good care of her. Now where is this supper you've promised me, sweet sister?"

Cersei set a tasty table, that could not be denied. They started with a creamy chestnut soup, crusty hot bread, and greens dressed with apples and pine nuts. Then came lamprey pie, honeyed ham, buttered carrots, white beans and bacon, and roast swan stuffed with mushrooms and oysters. Tyrion was exceedingly courteous; he offered his sister the choice portions of every dish, and made certain he ate only what she did. Not that he truly thought she'd poison him, but it never hurt to be careful.

[snip]

As the swan was being served, the queen questioned him about the conspiracy of the Antler Men. She seemed more annoyed than afraid. "Why are we plagued with so many treasons? What injury has House Lannister ever done these wretches?"

"None," said Tyrion, "but they think to be on the winning side . . . which makes them fools as well as traitors."

"Are you certain you've found them all?"

"Varys says so." The swan was too rich for his taste.

[snip]

Serving men cleared away the swan, hardly touched. Cersei beckoned for the sweet. "I hope you like blackberry tarts."

"I love all sorts of tarts." (Tyrion XII, aCoK)

 

 

You could say that Sansa was served to Tyrion later on a silver platter, but she was cleared away again, hardly touched, and Tyrion just loves "tarts" (slang for whores). Interestingly 'swan' is served during the Purple Wedding and here's Tyrion's response to it.

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Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) (Tyrion VIII, aSoS)

The serving men brought out a heron stuffed with figs, veal cutlets blanched with almond milk, creamed herring, candied onions, foul-smelling cheeses, plates of snails and sweetbreads, and a black swan in her plumage. Tyrion refused the swan, which reminded him of a supper with his sister.  (Tyrion I, aDwD)

Seems to me that Tyrion's foreswearing 'swans' for himself. He doesn't want a swan 'again'. And it does reinforce the link of Sansa as a Swan.

There's an interesting passage in a Jaime chapter of him watching the night sky after he fought with Rorge, and he's a captive of Hoat.

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Jaime lay on his back afterward, staring at the night sky, trying not to feel the pain that snaked up his right arm every time he moved it. The night was strangely beautiful. The moon was a graceful crescent, and it seemed as though he had never seen so many stars. The King's Crown was at the zenith, and he could see the Stallion rearing, and there the Swan. The Moonmaid, shy as ever, was half-hidden behind a pine tree. How can such a night be beautiful? he asked himself. Why would the stars want to look down on such as me? (aSoS, Jaime IV)

So we have a crown for a king, a Stallion, a Swan and a Moon Maiden. It seems to me that these are possibly 2 or 3 ladies going for the crown - the Stallion would be Dany.

The swan ships of the Summer Isles are mentioned again when Arya arrives in Braavos. Ineresting is that her first comparative thought is that she'll be a "mouse" again like in HH. Braavos is thus represented as much as a type of prison to Arya as HH, or where she has to live in disguise. There's also the interesting phrasing of "a girl"... this is an anonymous identifier, like Jaquen called her, a "no one". It's odd, because Arya isn't yet at the HoBaW, and you would expect her to think in terms of "than she/Arya could count".

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The Titan's Daughter dwindled in their wake, while the city grew larger with every stroke of Yorko's oars. A harbor was visible off to her right, a tangle of piers and quays crowded with big-bellied whalers out of Ibben, swan ships from the Summer Isles, and more galleys than a girl could count. Another harbor, more distant, was off to her left, beyond a sinking point of land where the tops of half-drowned buildings thrust themselves above the water. Arya had never seen so many big buildings all together in one place. King's Landing had the Red Keep and the Great Sept of Baelor and the Dragonpit, but Braavos seemed to boast a score of temples and towers and palaces that were as large or even larger. I will be a mouse again, she thought glumly, the way I was in Harrenhal before I ran away. (Arya I, aFfC)

Then yes, Summer Islanders are again linked with swans and feathery cloaks, and Arya likes them best.

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Her favorites were the Summer Islanders, with their skins as smooth and dark as teak. They wore feathered cloaks of red and green and yellow, and the tall masts and white sails of their swan ships were magnificent. (Cat of the Canals, aFfC)

BTW aside from Sam and his Swan ship of the Summer Isles, the Cinnamon Wind that takes him from Braavos to Oldtown (and Sam's said to be fond of  'dancing' by Jon in aGoT, though he's clumsy at it), there are several references for Arianne regarding swimming (the water gardens), dancing as well, but there's her exchange with Ser Balon Swann. Areo Hotah notices from the beginning that the swans of his brooch seem to be fighting (= dancing) and will not be taken down as easily as Arys Oakheart, nor as easily "seduced".

 

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Ser Balon Swann was taut as a drawn bow, the captain of guards observed. This new white knight was not so tall nor comely as the old one, but he was bigger across the chest, burlier, his arms thick with muscle. His snowy cloak was clasped at the throat by two swans on a silver brooch. One was ivory, the other onyx, and it seemed to Areo Hotah as if the two of them were fighting. The man who wore them looked a fighter too. This one will not die so easy as the other. He will not charge into my axe the way Ser Arys did. He will stand behind his shield and make me come at him. If it came to that, Hotah would be ready. His longaxe was sharp enough to shave with.

[snip]

Arianne touched the pin that clasped [Balon's] cloak, with its quarreling swans. "I have always been fond of swans. No other bird is half so beautiful, this side of the Summer Isles."

"Your peacocks might dispute that," said Ser Balon.

"They might," said Arianne, "but peacocks are vain, proud creatures, strutting about in all those gaudy colors. Give me a swan serene in white or beautiful in black."

Ser Balon gave a nod and sipped his wine. This one is not so easily seduced as was his Sworn Brother, Hotah thought. Ser Arys was a boy, despite his years. This one is a man, and wary.   (The Watcher, aDwD)

 

 

It suggests that swans don't die easily, nor are they seduced easily, whether black or white.

 

 

[LmL]

6 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Don't forget about the moon brothers in the mountains of the moon

Oh, never. I've said quite a lot about them. Basically anything with the word "moon" attached to it has my attention. You'll see why when you check out my page / podcast.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, LmL said:

Oh, never. I've said quite a lot about them. Basically anything with the word "moon" attached to it has my attention. You'll see why when you check out my page / podcast.

You have a podcast  

How do I find it? You can pm me if this is against forum rules. 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

SWAN COMBO REFERENCES

First swan reference is "white swan ship" of the "Summer Isles". So, swans are linked to "summer". We see this link reappear again when Arya arrives in Braavos. Here the white swan of summer is overtaken by a "storm dancer"

There's House Swann: showing a black and white swan on the shield. Not only do we meet Balon Swann who ends up wearing the white of KG, there's also Lady Smallwood where the tree maiden song is sung of Acorn Hall, who is called Ravella Swann from birth. She is a swan lady, and she calls Arya pretty.

Tyrion eats a swan.

 

 

You could say that Sansa was served to Tyrion later on a silver platter, but she was cleared away again, hardly touched, and Tyrion just loves "tarts" (slang for whores). Interestingly 'swan' is served during the Purple Wedding and here's Tyrion's response to it.

Seems to me that Tyrion's foreswearing 'swans' for himself. He doesn't want a swan 'again'. And it does reinforce the link of Sansa as a Swan.

There's an interesting passage in a Jaime chapter of him watching the night sky after he fought with Rorge, and he's a captive of Hoat.

So we have a crown for a king, a Stallion, a Swan and a Moon Maiden. It seems to me that these are possibly 2 or 3 ladies going for the crown - the Stallion would be Dany.

The swan ships of the Summer Isles are mentioned again when Arya arrives in Braavos. Ineresting is that her first comparative thought is that she'll be a "mouse" again like in HH. Braavos is thus represented as much as a type of prison to Arya as HH, or where she has to live in disguise. There's also the interesting phrasing of "a girl"... this is an anonymous identifier, like Jaquen called her, a "no one". It's odd, because Arya isn't yet at the HoBaW, and you would expect her to think in terms of "than she/Arya could count".

Then yes, Summer Islanders are again linked with swans and feathery cloaks, and Arya likes them best.

BTW aside from Sam and his Swan ship of the Summer Isles, the Cinnamon Wind that takes him from Braavos to Oldtown (and Sam's said to be fond of  'dancing' by Jon in aGoT, though he's clumsy at it), there are several references for Arianne regarding swimming (the water gardens), dancing as well, but there's her exchange with Ser Balon Swann. Areo Hotah notices from the beginning that the swans of his brooch seem to be fighting (= dancing) and will not be taken down as easily as Arys Oakheart, nor as easily "seduced".

 

 

It suggests that swans don't die easily, nor are they seduced easily, whether black or white.

 

 

I hadn't realised how strong the connection between the summer Isles and swans was! 

When Tyrion eats the swan that too rich for his taste,  it 's also a hint to Alayaya,   who -like Sansa - is cleared away hardly touched . Alayaya is from the summer islands. Poor Alayaya I wonder what the other swan dinners hint to... Does anything significant regarding a swan maiden happen afterwards?

The summer islanders (or swans) have very strong sexualities,  and see sex as something holy,  to celebrate. I think the many links to them indicates that Sansa and Arya need to discover their sexualities (without using it as a weapon), and respect themselves,  as beautiful sexual human beings. Note that the summer islanders also are the ones who teach Sam about his sexuality, and how to respect and celebrate it,  so it's interesting that you found a link between Sam and a swan maiden! 

The famous courtesan the Black Pearl is a descendant from the summer islands (and targs), and the first one also was a pirate,  I can imagine Arya learning from her,  and leaving Braavos as a sexually mature pirate queen on a Swan ship

A link to house swan and sexuality is the Black Swan, another famous courtesan from house Swann, i think her name was Johanna Swann, and she ruled Lys.

The swans are not easily seduced, but they are sexual beings,  and strong. A good sign for Arya and Sansa! 

[sweetsunray]

41 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I wonder what the other swan dinners hint to... Does anything significant regarding a swan maiden happen afterwards?

Well the one at the Purple Wedding certainly points to Sansa as the swan.

Here's the quote again:

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Then came some strolling pipers and clever dogs and sword swallowers, with buttered pease, chopped nuts, and slivers of swan poached in a sauce of saffron and peaches. ("Not swan again," Tyrion muttered, remembering his supper with his sister on the eve of battle.) (Tyrion VIII, aSoS)

Clever dogs => Sandor

Sword swallower => Sandor held swords to Sansa's throat (several times), and a Nissa Nissa link. It also sounds like sexual slang, aka Sansa wants Sandor's "Sword"

Pease => marriage dinner scene between Tyrion and Sansa where they discuss the "pease". You couldn't have had a more boring conversationbbetween two people who obviously have nothing to talk about with each other. They have nothing in common, nothing to share, and nothing to talk about, except pease, and even then still not without frustration and it being a minefield topic. The marriage was all buttered up to Tyrion as "She's pretty, she has a claim on WF", but it's boring.

Chopped nuts => Tyrion is blueballed by Sansa, and he's made fun of by everyone because he hasn't bedded her. Again sexual slang, this time about Sansa-Tyrion. She doesn't want his nuts, but rather chop them up.

=> so, for Tyrion, NO, NOT SWAN AGAIN. The swan (Sansa) disappears shortly after, taken away by Dontos to LF's ship. That paragraph is George shipping SanSan and saying Sansa-Tyrion is "not interested" from both sides.

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The serving men brought out a heron stuffed with figs, veal cutlets blanched with almond milk, creamed herring, candied onions, foul-smelling cheeses, plates of snails and sweetbreads, and a black swan in her plumage. Tyrion refused the swan, which reminded him of a supper with his sister.  (Tyrion I, aDwD)

This one is in Pentos, in Illyrio's house, after he fucked the blonde girl that Illyrio bought for him. He also thinks how he can't seem to keep wives for long. That he wants his wife back, his wife Tysha. But as it is 3rd time in a row, I think it still refers to Sansa. However, she is a "black" swan to him, because he believes she played him false, had him set up for regicide. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

The summer islanders (or swans) have very strong sexualities,  and see sex as something holy,  to celebrate. I think the many links to them indicates that Sansa and Arya need to discover their sexualities (without using it as a weapon), and respect themselves,  as beautiful sexual human beings. Note that the summer islanders also are the ones who teach Sam about his sexuality, and how to respect and celebrate it,  so it's interesting that you found a link between Sam and a swan maiden! 

The famous courtesan the Black Pearl is a descendant from the summer islands (and targs), and the first one also was a pirate,  I can imagine Arya learning from her,  and leaving Braavos as a sexually mature pirate queen on a Swan ship

A link to house swan and sexuality is the Black Swan, another famous courtesan from house Swann, i think her name was Johanna Swann, and she ruled Lys.

The swans are not easily seduced, but they are sexual beings,  and strong. A good sign for Arya and Sansa! 

Agreed on all. Sansa and Arya's growth arc involves self-empowered sexual maturing. They choose. It will be their choice, not for money, not for titles, not for security, not for politics, not because what another wants for them.

Agreed on the Black Pearl. I think that at some point she will take Arya "under her swan wing". The Summer Isle-swan connection makes that clear even more. The Black Pearl seems like a woman who could relate to "tomboy" nature more. Being taken under the wing of a courtesan would not imply that Arya would have to engage in sex. Quite the opposite really. The courtesan wants the attention of men to go her way, not to the girls she has in her retinue. But it would bring Arya into the female world and prepare her for her body changes into womanhood. Possibly, she might even be sent there by the HoBaW as apprentice, as she was with the actors.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I hadn't realised how strong the connection between the summer Isles and swans was! 

When Tyrion eats the swan that too rich for his taste,  it 's also a hint to Alayaya,   who -like Sansa - is cleared away hardly touched . Alayaya is from the summer islands. Poor Alayaya I wonder what the other swan dinners hint to... Does anything significant regarding a swan maiden happen afterwards?

The summer islanders (or swans) have very strong sexualities,  and see sex as something holy,  to celebrate. I think the many links to them indicates that Sansa and Arya need to discover their sexualities (without using it as a weapon), and respect themselves,  as beautiful sexual human beings. Note that the summer islanders also are the ones who teach Sam about his sexuality, and how to respect and celebrate it,  so it's interesting that you found a link between Sam and a swan maiden! 

The famous courtesan the Black Pearl is a descendant from the summer islands (and targs), and the first one also was a pirate,  I can imagine Arya learning from her,  and leaving Braavos as a sexually mature pirate queen on a Swan ship

A link to house swan and sexuality is the Black Swan, another famous courtesan from house Swann, i think her name was Johanna Swann, and she ruled Lys.

The swans are not easily seduced, but they are sexual beings,  and strong. A good sign for Arya and Sansa! 

Just checking in on this thread. 

I was in a conversation a few weeks back with someone (?) discussing how Arya would meet and train under the Black Pearl. We only got so far in our training and why hypothesis, but I think you finished it out here!  This makes sense to me. 

George recently confirmed Arya will get her moonblood soon, and while she may stay a virgin, I think that will awaken more of her sexual side... And maybe she won't mind if boys see her in a pink dress 

[LmL]

13 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

You have a podcast  

How do I find it? You can pm me if this is against forum rules. 

You can either look for "Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire" in iTunes, or just go to my site - www.lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and each essay has a podcast player embedded within. Cheers! Let me know what you think

@sweetsunray, you been keeping up with me lately? 

[The Fattest Leech]

21 minutes ago, LmL said:

You can either look for "Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire" in iTunes, or just go to my site - www.lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and each essay has a podcast player embedded within. Cheers! Let me know what you think

@sweetsunray, you been keeping up with me lately? 

Awesome. Thank you. Fair warning, it may take me a few days because I only have time to sneak these things in between other "work" .

I will definitely let you know when I had that chance to listen.

[The Fattest Leech]

23 minutes ago, LmL said:

You can either look for "Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire" in iTunes, or just go to my site - www.lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and each essay has a podcast player embedded within. Cheers! Let me know what you think

@sweetsunray, you been keeping up with me lately? 

Aah, shoot. NOW I see it in your signature line. Oops! The sig lines don't show up when you are browsing on a phone so I guess that is how I missed it

[LmL]

1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Awesome. Thank you. Fair warning, it may take me a few days because I only have time to sneak these things in between other "work" .

I will definitely let you know when I had that chance to listen.

Awesome! ...and no hurry, take your time. My podcasts vary in length, and I've organized them into sections so you have convenient stopping places too, so you can break them off it bits. Basically, if you like it, you'll keep listening, and if not... then not. But if you like it, we can assassinate all your commuting hours together.  

One note: I originally linked to the one titled "Lucifer means Lightbringer" because it ties in to the black / white swan convo we are talking about here. That's actually 'chapter 6' of my series, but you can just listen to episode one and then jump to chapter 6 if you want. Ch 1 has all the basics of my theory that you need to know for Ch 6 to make sense. You could just go right for 6, but there will be references you might not get. 

Cheers! 

...we now resume our regularly scheduled swan-fest...

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

You can either look for "Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire" in iTunes, or just go to my site - www.lucifermeanslightbringer.com, and each essay has a podcast player embedded within. Cheers! Let me know what you think

@sweetsunray, you been keeping up with me lately? 

I wanted to @LmL But as the show was unavoidable, I concentrated a bit too much on my ranting And then I bing-watched all of Black Sails, and re-watching that to forget whatever I saw on screen with the show asap, watching that with symbolical eye too, reading 12th Night, Tempest, Cupid & Psyche and Paradise Lost (again) and used that to just write some (fan)fiction instead of analysis of aSoIaF (just an expansion fanfic of canon S3 of certain characters, because it seems to be completely misunderstood, and to elevate the themes). Exercise to apply George's writing techniques But of course, now I'm drawn back into analysis. I still have to listen to the podcast where you recommended my blog in the essay.  I have some catching up to do

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Just checking in on this thread. 

I was in a conversation a few weeks back with someone (?) discussing how Arya would meet and train under the Black Pearl. We only got so far in our training and why hypothesis, but I think you finished it out here!  This makes sense to me. 

George recently confirmed Arya will get her moonblood soon, and while she may stay a virgin, I think that will awaken more of her sexual side... And maybe she won't mind if boys see her in a pink dress 

I've been thinking for over a year now that Arya will train under the Black Pearl. Arya already shows an interest in pretty much all the courtesans, watching them, so proud about the fact she sold one her cockles, finding out the Black Pearl's real name, the Black Pearl being featured in the Mercy chapter and Raff talking gross about her. She is certainly fascinated by them, and I always linked them to 'swans' to Arya's 'ugly duckling' self image , with the boats on the canals like the 3 swans on the Gods Eye lake. It was enough to have that "I got a hunch feeling".

But the Summer Isles, feathery cloaks, swan boats, the Black Pearl having Summer Isle roots, Sam's sexuality on a Summer Isle Swan ship, Arya's ballet water dancing of Braavos => all these elements together make that more than a hunch. I think we have uncovered the symbolical textual links for Arya to be taken "under her swan wing" and probably the person to help her return to Westeros at some point, and on what type of ship she returns (a swan ship). I think we can now say with perhaps +90% certainty that Arya will apprentice somehow with the Black Pearl, and that this will not only affect her womanhood but her desire to return to Westeros. 

And since I've been writing fic with the Tempest in mind (the concept of sea-change), I also have come to see how sea voyages have become a means of a sexual sea-change in sexual mature characters in George's writing:

• while Jorah's bear kiss re-awakens Dany's sexuality after being a widow for a certain time, Dany takes Irri as her bedwarmer lover and masturbates. This happens at "sea" => sea-change
• Sam has his first sexual experience with Gilly. This happens at "sea" => sea-change

 

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I've been thinking for over a year now that Arya will train under the Black Pearl. Arya already shows an interest in pretty much all the courtesans, watching them, so proud about the fact she sold one her cockles, finding out the Black Pearl's real name, the Black Pearl being featured in the Mercy chapter and Raff talking gross about her. She is certainly fascinated by them, and I always linked them to 'swans' to Arya's 'ugly duckling' self image , with the boats on the canals like the 3 swans on the Gods Eye lake. It was enough to have that "I got a hunch feeling".

But the Summer Isles, feathery cloaks, swan boats, the Black Pearl having Summer Isle roots, Sam's sexuality on a Summer Isle Swan ship, Arya's ballet water dancing of Braavos => all these elements together make that more than a hunch. I think we have uncovered the symbolical textual links for Arya to be taken "under her swan wing" and probably the person to help her return to Westeros at some point, and on what type of ship she returns (a swan ship). I think we can now say with perhaps +90% certainty that Arya will apprentice somehow with the Black Pearl, and that this will not only affect her womanhood but her desire to return to Westeros. 

And since I've been writing fic with the Tempest in mind (the concept of sea-change), I also have come to see how sea voyages have become a means of a sexual sea-change in sexual mature characters in George's writing:

• while Jorah's bear kiss re-awakens Dany's sexuality after being a widow for a certain time, Dany takes Irri as her bedwarmer lover and masturbates. This happens at "sea" => sea-change
• Sam has his first sexual experience with Gilly. This happens at "sea" => sea-change

 

Yessss I truly believe this is going to happen too. 

Other sexual experiences that involve water,  albeit not sea: Dany's first sexual experience is next to a stream,  and Jon's first (?) time with Ygritte is in a cavern with water. 

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

Yessss I truly believe this is going to happen too. 

Other sexual experiences that involve water,  albeit not sea: Dany's first sexual experience is next to a stream,  and Jon's first (?) time with Ygritte is in a cavern with water. 

I don't think Arya will have her first sexual "experience" on a ship back to Westeros. She's not even 12 in aDwD. It'll take her about another half year at least for her to turn 12 in the books. But it may be related to her having her first period, or if that happened prior, she might develop some sexual fantasies on the ship back, with all of them "strong" looking sailors working around her. But her mature sexuality will be woken up.

ETA: the cavern with water is not Jon's first time, but it's when he goes down on Ygritte the first time.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think Arya will have her first sexual "experience" on a ship back to Westeros. She's not even 12 in aDwD. It'll take her about another half year at least for her to turn 12 in the books. But it may be related to her having her first period, or if that happened prior, she might develop some sexual fantasies on the ship back, with all of them "strong" looking sailors working around her. But her mature sexuality will be woken up.

ETA: the cavern with water is not Jon's first time, but it's when he goes down on Ygritte the first time.

I didn't really mean she'd have a sexual experience there, I think Arya, and perhaps (hopefully) Sansa too, will be maidens for a bit longer. I also think jobs experience with Ygritte in the cave was one of sexual growth, rather than just gaining the experience. I think it signifies his respect for female sexuality and pleasure. He also teaches Ygritte something new ; the man giving instead of taking (stealing).

 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Manderly's Rat Cook said:

I didn't really mean she'd have a sexual experience there, I think Arya, and perhaps (hopefully) Sansa too, will be maidens for a bit longer. I also think jobs experience with Ygritte in the cave was one of sexual growth, rather than just gaining the experience. I think it signifies his respect for female sexuality and pleasure. He also teaches Ygritte something new ; the man giving instead of taking (stealing).

 

I thought so But since we're discussing sexual maturation of a young girl character, just needed to clarify it. Some people might jump at our throats with misunderstanding over this, though we're probably not talking beyond Sansa fantasising what it would be like to kiss Loras while the bear-maiden song is sung or inventing an Unkiss. 

I agree with the remark about Jon-Ygritte in the cave.

[Meera of Tarth]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I've been thinking for over a year now that Arya will train under the Black Pearl. Arya already shows an interest in pretty much all the courtesans, watching them, so proud about the fact she sold one her cockles, finding out the Black Pearl's real name, the Black Pearl being featured in the Mercy chapter and Raff talking gross about her. She is certainly fascinated by them, and I always linked them to 'swans' to Arya's 'ugly duckling' self image , with the boats on the canals like the 3 swans on the Gods Eye lake. It was enough to have that "I got a hunch feeling".

But the Summer Isles, feathery cloaks, swan boats, the Black Pearl having Summer Isle roots, Sam's sexuality on a Summer Isle Swan ship, Arya's ballet water dancing of Braavos => all these elements together make that more than a hunch. I think we have uncovered the symbolical textual links for Arya to be taken "under her swan wing" and probably the person to help her return to Westeros at some point, and on what type of ship she returns (a swan ship). I think we can now say with perhaps +90% certainty that Arya will apprentice somehow with the Black Pearl, and that this will not only affect her womanhood but her desire to return to Westeros. 

And since I've been writing fic with the Tempest in mind (the concept of sea-change), I also have come to see how sea voyages have become a means of a sexual sea-change in sexual mature characters in George's writing:

• while Jorah's bear kiss re-awakens Dany's sexuality after being a widow for a certain time, Dany takes Irri as her bedwarmer lover and masturbates. This happens at "sea" => sea-change
• Sam has his first sexual experience with Gilly. This happens at "sea" => sea-change

 

hadn't noticed that pattern. interesting.