The Valkyrie of the FM - theory about the First and the First Reborn

[sweetsunray]

I'll read it today! :)

 

 

Really? I didn't notice that! Where is this? I want to read it....

 

 

 

@everyone: This thread is amazing

 

It's Mel's chapter in aDwD. She stares in the flames and sees an old withered man with a corpselike face and a wolfheaded boy. She realizes they can see her. And then the young wolf howls. She wonders whether the old man is the Great Other. But she thinks the Great Other must look more demonic, and thinks that perhaps they are his servants. Anyhow the way it's described she sees them looking at her while she sees them in her flames.

[LmL]

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

 

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse . Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away .

 

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

 

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand.  Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.  (ADWD, Melisandre)

 

[LmL]

This quote comes shortly after, and seems important:
 

Her fire had burned low, she saw. “Devan, more wood. What hour is it?”

 

“Almost dawn, my lady.”

 

Dawn. Another day is given us, R’hllor be praised. The terrors of the night recede. Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders. And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour. One day, Melisandre prayed, she would not sleep at all. One day she would be free of dreams. Melony, she thought. Lot Seven.

 

Devan fed fresh logs to the fire until the flames leapt up again, fierce and furious, driving the shadows back into the corners of the room,  ("hello, my name is Eldric Shadowchaser, like my father who also feeds fires to chase shadows...") devouring all her unwanted dreams. The dark recedes again … for a little while. But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf’s face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers.

 

Melisandre went to her window, pushed open the shutters. Outside the east had just begun to lighten, and the stars of morning still hung in a pitch-black sky.  (ADWD, Melisandre)

 

[A Bastard Snow]

It's also interesting that Arya bears the names of the dead.

[sweetsunray]

It's also interesting that Arya bears the names of the dead.

 

Yes, she does: Weasel, Nan, Cat, Beth

Except for Arry and Salty I think.

And "Mercy" ties to the gift of "mercy".

[Lady Barbrey]

Thank you for putting Arya's role in respect of justice and vengeance in its proper perspective. This is what I mean when I say she has a good sense of justice, but at the same time, is carrying out a personal vendetta against people she (rightly) feels deserve it. As you say, she stands between the two. And as I pointed out in my post, her training in the HoBaW serves to help her come to a balanced decision:
 

Yes, I really appreciated that post.
 
 

Besides being a Valkyre, I think Arya also has additional roles to play which I illustrate in this part of an essay on the concept of 'weaving destiny'. She is also walking the 'Patternmaker's Maze' which leads to 'wisdom'. In her role as a fully fledged Valkyre, she will have attained the wisdom to make balanced judgements about who to pick. Walking a labyrinth also includes the idea of negotiating it to eventually enter a world of shadow, the land of the ancestors or the dead. There are a lot of indications that Arya has mastered at least part of the maze. She's confronted with many tunnel and underground systems throughout the books and also masters the tunnels in the HoBaW, even though she is blind. She actually enters a chamber of the dead, where the faces hang and by donning the mask, even communes with the dead. She experiences the fear and pain of the face's owner and even sees the attacker. We've read often enough that much has been lost to memory over the centuries. It makes me wonder if she will one day wear a face that will impart forgotten but important memories regarding the events to come, stuff that will be important in terms of making choices and taking action, perhaps.

Just finished reading. Read the whole thing. Excellent job! It's these kinds of posts that keep me interested and excited about the series. I had seen Arya as somewhat of an Ariadne figure before but youve really enhanced that perception. The arya sacco ?sp) was a superb catch.

If you come back to this post, this is a question for you and LmL as well.

Years ago, I looked at the Dogon myth of Sirius A, Sirius B, and a possible Sirius C - a trilogy of stars caught in one another's orbits. Sirius A is the one we can see, one of the brightest stars in the sky. It is blue and the name connotes dog or wolf. The main thing is that its orbit is erratic, because every 50 years or so Sirius B comes close enough to affect its orbit. Sirius B is a white dwarf of incredible mass. Nobody could see it really until the 1970's. It was inferred to exist before that because when it got close to main Sirius A, Sirius A would grow brighter, and when it was furthest away, Sirius A would dim and sometimes look like many different stars conglomerated to the naked eye. Sirius C has never really been corroborated - it exists as the sun for the planet of the Dogon gods in Dogon mythology -though there was some evidence presented in 1995 of its possible existence. It would come close enough to Sirius A to affect it once every few millenia or so, according to the myth.

Im hoping that you or LmL as students or archeoastronomy can tell me if you see any comparisons here with the way Planetos works in terms of Long Nights and magic. I'm sure LmL at least has considered it because Sirius and the Dogons have provided much speculation (rather like Atlantis) in the field. Please private message me if either of you have looked at it and it has nothing to do with the topic here.

[sweetsunray]

This quote comes shortly after, and seems important:

 

Absolutely. It's as if Melisandre tries to avoid anything that might give her visions except the flames. She regards dreams as false messenger or manipulations or something. But from GoHH we know they are as accurate as the flame visions. And while in her mind she's keeping herself pure from manipulation, I think she's actually making herself a big victim for it. If you were on a mission, you would want as much info as possible, not just one source.

[LmL]

 

Absolutely. It's as if Melisandre tries to avoid anything that might give her visions except the flames. She regards dreams as false messenger or manipulations or something. But from GoHH we know they are as accurate as the flame visions. And while in her mind she's keeping herself pure from manipulation, I think she's actually making herself a big victim for it. If you were on a mission, you would want as much info as possible, not just one source.

 

It makes an interesting counterpoint to the "dreamers," another name for greenseers. And even better, if Mel is indeed Bloodraven's daughter, then she's essentially denying a part of her own magical heritage or something like that. I've always wondered if some of her magical abilities come from or are supplemented by a potential greenseer ability passed down through BR. I wonder if maybe her dreams frighten her because she is actually green dreaming... green dreams are tied to the power she considers to be the great Other, so... 

[sweetsunray]

There's a curious reference in the WoIaF book:

 

An old legend told in Pentos claims that the Andals slew the swan maidens who lured travelers to their deaths in the Velvet Hills that lie to the east of the Free City. A hero whom the Pentoshi singers call Hukko led the Andals at that time, and it is said that he slew the seven maids not for their crimes but instead as sacrifice to his gods. There are some maesters who have noted that Hukko may well be a rendering of the name of Hugor. But even more so than in the Seven Kingdoms, ancient legends from the east must be distrusted. Too many peoples have traveled back and forth, and too many legends and tales have mingled. (The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Arrival of the Andals)

 

"swan maidens" in mythology are usually maidens found bathing, but with feather dresses that helps them skinchange into swans. They appear often in folklore with a man (or several men) spying them, ending up hiding the feather dress, and then marry one of the maidens. In some tales these swan maidens are unhappy, miserable, crying, until eventually someone in the household (might be son or daughter) finds and returns the hidden feather dress. The swan maiden would then don the feather dress and fly off. The swan lake, Anderson's "the wild swans" and other older stories use this motif.

 

But there are also myths and folklore stories where these swan maidens are Valkyries. The legend Wayland the Smith starts with Wayland and his 2 brothers stumbling upon 3 such swan maidens, who are Vakyries. In this legend though, the feather dress is not stolen. All three swan maiden/valkyries remain with the brothers for 7 or 9 years (depends on the source) voluntarily before flying off.

• Valkyrie Alruna marries the brother Agiliaz (archer hero). Note that her name contains the word 'rune', which were not solely means to write but used by Odin and Norns to ascribe fate/resurrection on someone.
• Valkyrie "Hervör alvitr" marries Wayland, with "avlitr" meaning "all wise" or "strange creature".
• Valkyrie "Hladgudr svanhvit" marries brother Slagvidr. "svanhvit" means "swan-white" and the brother's name means "beating-Finn".

So, we have med seducing swan maidens that are Valkyries, who choose is to be slain, and GRRM uses a direct "swan maiden" concept of women luring men into hills to kill them.

 

How is this relevant to Arya? At another level her story arc is that of the Ugly Duckling, who is actually a swan.(the link leads to an essay where all the evidence for Arya's arc mapping nicely with the Ugly Duckling story is gathered). On top of that she also has a story with an armorer-smith apprentice who falls for her, but she "flies" off.

 

I'll pluck a quote from the ugly duckling essay that fits in this post -

 

Thirty yards from shore, three black swans were gliding over the water, so serene… no one had told them that war had come, and they cared nothing for burning towns and butchered men. She stared at them with yearning. Part of her wanted to be a swan. The other part wanted to eat one.(aCoK, Arya V)

 

GRRM thus has Arya functioning as a the archetype Valkyrie, but more precise as a swan maiden, and incorporated the Ugly Duckling tale into coming-of-age story.

 

Were those 7 swan maidens possible Valkyries near Pentos? If they were 7 they seemed to have worked together, or as an organisation, much like the FM is an organisation. They are portrayed as a type of "outlaws" or "evil" women, but perhaps they were only doing a certain power's will, like Arya does now. Since it's an old legend of Pentos, likely referecing to Hugor of the Hill, the Valkyries would predate the FM, and then the First is not really the First, but one of many throughout time. However, it seems the First was far more succesful. Her organisation is hinted to be involved with the bringing about of the Doom, and certainly her organisation managed to survive several centuries, and as a Braavos organisation by extension succeeded in having Pentos officially halt the practice of slavery.

 

And our Arya's first larger scale feat is not the murder of a certain end-game player but having Braavos ships rescue women and children from Others, wights as well as Lyseni slavers at Hardhome.

[sweetsunray]

 

It makes an interesting counterpoint to the "dreamers," another name for greenseers. And even better, if Mel is indeed Bloodraven's daughter, then she's essentially denying a part of her own magical heritage or something like that. I've always wondered if some of her magical abilities come from or are supplemented by a potential greenseer ability passed down through BR. I wonder if maybe her dreams frighten her because she is actually green dreaming... green dreams are tied to the power she considers to be the great Other, so... 

 

I think there are hints in that passage that she is a green dreamer. She has red eyes after all. Unfortunately her thinking has been boxed, enslaved and warped to that of R'hllor. :(

[LmL]

 

I think there are hints in that passage that she is a green dreamer. She has red eyes after all. Unfortunately her thinking has been boxed, enslaved and warped to that of R'hllor. :(

 

Yes, I believe this a sign of greensight as well, as opposed to albinism. 

[Lady Barbrey]

It makes an interesting counterpoint to the "dreamers," another name for greenseers. And even better, if Mel is indeed Bloodraven's daughter, then she's essentially denying a part of her own magical heritage or something like that. I've always wondered if some of her magical abilities come from or are supplemented by a potential greenseer ability passed down through BR. I wonder if maybe her dreams frighten her because she is actually green dreaming... green dreams are tied to the power she considers to be the great Other, so...

I have wondered the same since reading the Radio Westeros post about her as Bloodraven's daughter, recommended by you on another sweetsunray thread, after I had tentatively posited that because Casterly Rock was so much like Tintagel in Arthuriana, and because Aerys's lust for Joanna is so highly reminiscent of another High King's lust for a subject king's wife- Uther for Igrainne - that it was possible Aerys did get his way with the help of some glamouring, possibly from Bloodraven, and Tyrion as a remodeled Arthur Pendragon figure might be the result. I even speculated that Bloodraven himself might be Tyrion's father, because in some modern versions Merlin is the real rightful king and takes the place of Uther to birth Arthur.

Whether any of this very tentative spec is ever borne out I don't know, but I became very interested in another line after you directed me to the Radio Westeros piece that makes a surprisingly convincing case that Melisandre could be Bloodraven and Shiera's daughter.

Moreover, Melisandre's most direct real-world myth antecedent is Morgan LeFay. I wont go into the connection here as I assume everyone on this thread knows it or can google it. Martin's cryptic assertion that "Melisandre is a very misunderstood character" takes on a much funnier meaning if one remembers as I do how Morgan LeFay was reclaimed by feminist literature in such books as The Mists of Avalon because she was such a 'misunderstood' character, demonized from her original role of powerful healer and magical shapeshifter into a jealous conniving villainess.

So Bloodraven might have a daughter who is modeled on Morgan LeFay. That would be it, I guess, except that the memory or dream she has names somebody else. "Melony". I thought like most of us that this might be her real name, or some kind of nickname, and referred to her being sold.

But it might not be her. The only reason to think it is her is because the first syllable 'Mel' is the same as hers.

However, if she is modeled on Morgan LeFay; well, Morgan was called by a number of names with Mor as the prefix: Morgaine, Morgana, etc. She also had a sister very important to the Arthur saga: Morgause.

Morgause is the one that married King " Lot". And Melony, if a sister and not Melisandre herself, has only two words associated with her. "Lot 7".

On this tiny bit of evidence, I wondered if Melisandre might have had a sister that she had been separated from.

I also wondered if she had been sent a vision or clue in her dreams associated with this sister she couldnt find, and the vision turned out to be false or, far more likely, she had misinterpreted it, and thats why she doesnt trust dreams. The whole context of the 'Melony. Lot 7' turns on two things: a fire vision of a man who could be her father and a memory ofa false, or falsely interpreted, auditory dream.

If 'lot' confirmed for me that Melony might be a sister rather than a slave item (and it could be both) then what was the 7? I left that and started randomly running through characters in my head that might be a sister. It couldnt be based on looks because Mel's likely an albino like her dad who dyes her hair. I was looking at names associated with Mel or Mor and the number 7.

Septa LeMore. Who is also making a bid for the throne with her own candidate, Aegon. Whose body is described in terms like Melisandre's except that she has obviously, like Morgause, given birth. (Morgause is the sister that slept with Arthur and produced Mordred, as well as four children for King Lot) Septa LeMore might have other less literary connections. People speculate she could be Ashara Dayne or the King of Dorne's missing wife, who has a 'Mel' name. I dont pretend to know except the second more mysterious candidate seems more likely in terms of having sisters. If either or them are.

There is one more candidate for a possible sister but not I think to play anything like the Morgause role; related to 7 and Mor, but not to 'Lot'. Morgan and Morgause had an older sister called Elaine who was 'remarkable for being unremarkable' in Arthurian saga. If she had any drama, it took place out of the histories and stories.

Septa Mordane. Teacher and mentor to two little Stark girls, one of whom -Sansa- was very likely to become the next Queen of Westeros.

Thanks for taking this speculative journey with me. I wanted to post it but Im still looking at evidence. Thought I'd throw it on here because if any of it bears out, it adds a few layers to Melisandre's ability to greensee while showing she could still (like I might be doing, or readers who spec differently might be doing) be terribly misinterpreting things.

[Wavey Sauce]

Wow this is nothing short of brilliant.

 

 

One side thing that caught my eye, love how you put you are glad where you live there is no death penalty. I wish it was like that everywhere in the USA. Only because I would rather have a quick death then spend the rest of my life in some of the messed up prisons here. And its just IMO that set person is getting off easy by getting a quick death opposed to rest of their life locked up.

 

Anyway glad I found this OP, every point is always backed up more then once

[Lady Barbrey]

Edited for repost

[sweetsunray]

Wow this is nothing short of brilliant.

 

 

One side thing that caught my eye, love how you put you are glad where you live there is no death penalty. I wish it was like that everywhere in the USA. Only because I would rather have a quick death then spend the rest of my life in some of the messed up prisons here. And its just IMO that set person is getting off easy by getting a quick death opposed to rest of their life locked up.

 

Anyway glad I found this OP, every point is always backed up more then once

 

thank you :)

[sweetsunray]

I have wondered the same since reading the Radio Westeros post about her as Bloodraven's daughter, recommended by you on another sweetsunray thread, after I had tentatively posited that because Casterly Rock was so much like Tintagel in Arthuriana, and because Aerys's lust for Joanna is so highly reminiscent of another High King's lust for a subject king's wife- Uther for Igrainne - that it was possible Aerys did get his way with the help of some glamouring, possibly from Bloodraven, and Tyrion as a remodeled Arthur Pendragon figure might be the result. I even speculated that Bloodraven himself might be Tyrion's father, because in some modern versions Merlin is the real rightful king and takes the place of Uther to birth Arthur.

Whether any of this very tentative spec is ever borne out I don't know, but I became very interested in another line after you directed me to the Radio Westeros piece that makes a surprisingly convincing case that Melisandre could be Bloodraven and Shiera's daughter.

Moreover, Melisandre's most direct real-world myth antecedent is Morgan LeFay. I wont go into the connection here as I assume everyone on this thread knows it or can google it. Martin's cryptic assertion that "Melisandre is a very misunderstood character" takes on a much funnier meaning if one remembers as I do how Morgan LeFay was reclaimed by feminist literature in such books as The Mists of Avalon because she was such a 'misunderstood' character, demonized from her original role of powerful healer and magical shapeshifter into a jealous conniving villainess.

So Bloodraven might have a daughter who is modeled on Morgan LeFay. That would be it, I guess, except that the memory or dream she has names somebody else. "Melony". I thought like most of us that this might be her real name, or some kind of nickname, and referred to her being sold.

But it might not be her. The only reason to think it is her is because the first syllable 'Mel' is the same as hers.

However, if she is modeled on Morgan LeFay; well, Morgan was called by a number of names with Mor as the prefix: Morgaine, Morgana, etc. She also had a sister very important to the Arthur saga: Morgause.

Morgause is the one that married King " Lot". And Melony, if a sister and not Melisandre herself, has only two words associated with her. "Lot 7".

On this tiny bit of evidence, I wondered if Melisandre might have had a sister that she had been separated from.

I also wondered if she had been sent a vision or clue in her dreams associated with this sister she couldnt find, and the vision turned out to be false or, far more likely, she had misinterpreted it, and thats why she doesnt trust dreams. The whole context of the 'Melony. Lot 7' turns on two things: a fire vision of a man who could be her father and a memory ofa false, or falsely interpreted, auditory dream.

If 'lot' confirmed for me that Melony might be a sister rather than a slave item (and it could be both) then what was the 7? I left that and started randomly running through characters in my head that might be a sister. It couldnt be based on looks because Mel's likely an albino like her dad who dyes her hair. I was looking at names associated with Mel or Mor and the number 7.

Septa LeMore. Who is also making a bid for the throne with her own candidate, Aegon. Whose body is described in terms like Melisandre's except that she has obviously, like Morgause, given birth. (Morgause is the sister that slept with Arthur and produced Mordred, as well as four children for King Lot) Septa LeMore might have other less literary connections. People speculate she could be Ashara Dayne or the King of Dorne's missing wife, who has a 'Mel' name. I dont pretend to know except the second more mysterious candidate seems more likely in terms of having sisters. If either or them are.

There is one more candidate for a possible sister but not I think to play anything like the Morgause role; related to 7 and Mor, but not to 'Lot'. Morgan and Morgause had an older sister called Elaine who was 'remarkable for being unremarkable' in Arthurian saga. If she had any drama, it took place out of the histories and stories.

Septa Mordane. Teacher and mentor to two little Stark girls, one of whom -Sansa- was very likely to become the next Queen of Westeros.

Thanks for taking this speculative journey with me. I wanted to post it but Im still looking at evidence. Thought I'd throw it on here because if any of it bears out, it adds a few layers to Melisandre's ability to greensee while showing she could still (like I might be doing, or readers who spec differently might be doing) be terribly misinterpreting things.

 

Maybe you should start a theory on it?(hint)  I don't think it was in one of my threads, but I remember discussing some Irish versus Arthurian Mel stuff, which we kindof rehashed again. But I think it was a thread regarding Mel being Shiera Seastor or not.

[Lady Barbrey]

Maybe you should start a theory on it?(hint)  I don't think it was in one of my threads, but I remember discussing some Irish versus Arthurian Mel stuff, which we kindof rehashed again. But I think it was a thread regarding Mel being Shiera Seastor or not.

Sure sorry sweetsunray. It's hard to keep on topic sometimes because the posts here keep the wheels turning, added to which ive been reading the theories that keep getting linked!

[sweetsunray]

Sure sorry sweetsunray. It's hard to keep on topic sometimes because the posts here keep the wheels turning, added to which ive been reading the theories that keep getting linked!

 

Oh, please don't misunderstand me. I don't mind you exploring the topic in here at all. It was meant to be supportive :D I think you are expressing ideas and textual hints here that are completely theory worthy.

[Lady Barbrey]

Oh, please don't misunderstand me. I don't mind you exploring the topic in here at all. It was meant to be supportive :D I think you are expressing ideas and textual hints here that are completely theory worthy.

I am so glad! I was afraid to come back. I didnt want to derail anything.

As it is, however, the Melisandre post is not so far off. Once she is considered one of three, instead of on her own, she can also be more strongly identified as one of Three Fates (The Moirai) and hence related to the Norns (also three in some versions). Both sets of three women are related, and while there are all kinds of similarities too difficult to enumerate, they divide roughly into the one who decides or spins what is (Clothos), what was (Lachesis), or what will be (Atropos). The Morai in particular have to do with allotments, lot in life, destiny. Their name actually translates deciders of 'lot'. This pun - Lot 7 -just keeps going.

So while we have Arya becoming a 'chooser of the slain', we also have Melisandre as the Atropos Fate ('what will be' and executioner - the one who wields the scissors) doing the same based on her visions and doing it wrong. Perhaps because she has been separated from her sisters and seems to have no notion of what is and what was. Seeing the future is not enough if you have no points of reference grounded in the past and present to enable correct interpretation. Snipping off the lives of men and women to fulfill a false destiny - well, something's rotten here in Westeros.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

Thank you all for this great thread... I wish I could participate more, but I don't have enough mythological knowledge to do so. So I will keep on reading!