Another take on the poisoning of Sweetrobin

[Mithras]

We all know that LF has been giving sweetsleep to Sweetrobin.

 

“Sweets. Cakes and pies, jams and jellies, honey on the comb. Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking.”

 

However, a pinch of sweetsleep normally does much more than that.

 

“Sweetsleep is the gentlest of poisons,” the waif told her, as she was grinding some with a mortar and pestle. “A few grains will slow a pounding heart and stop a hand from shaking, and make a man feel calm and strong. A pinch will grant a night of deep and dreamless sleep.”

 

But this did not happen to Sweetrobin. The only explanation is that Sweetrobin was being given sweetsleep for a long time such that it increased his drug tolerance to sweetsleep.

 

This brings up important consequences:

 

First,

 

Mithridatism is the practice of protecting oneself against a poison by gradually self-administering non-lethal amounts.

 

Sweetrobin must have developed immunity towards sweetsleep by gradual subjection to non-lethal amounts of poison. That should be the reason why his nose does not bleed as Colemon fears although Sweetrobin has been exposed to much more sweetsleep than Colemon ever knows. So, unlike the popular idea, Sweetrobin should not die from sweetsleep if LF wants to off him with a lethal dose according to his experience.

 

Second,

 

Why on earth LF would want to give sweetsleep to Sweetrobin?

 

The first practical reason was this:

 

Sweetrobin had been accustomed to crawling in beside his mother, until she wed Lord Petyr.

 

“I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eyrie!”

 

Lysa always took care of Sweetrobin and they slept together. But in KL, she and LF must have drugged Sweetrobin to deep sleep while having sex in silence and whisperings. In time, Sweetrobin’s drug tolerance must have increased and he must have awakened to see the “parents” having sex. That might be the reason why Sweetrobin fears LF so much. Surely, seeing the parents having sex as a child is aa terrifying experience, especially if the mother is sleeping with another man.

 

Third, I think LF was perfectly aware that sweetsleep should kill Sweetrobin at one point. That means he always wanted to get rid of him, which means he had plans for the Arryn Seat all along.

[jobmartell]

Since he's been banging out Lysa for years, it's possible that SR is LFs child. Which in turn puts him in parallel to Theon and the miller's wife and the possibility of killing his own child.

[jobmartell]

Another question, at what point will LF try to off SR? He's trying to deal out Sansa to HtH, which will be his end but then to get rid of SR also seems extremely dangerous to LF to have so much death bumping up his status. I guess the question is who's first on his list, SR or HtH?

[Ygrain]

I like this twist of Sweetrobin becoming immune. I'd love to see LF's face when he tries to poison him! :D

 

On the other hand, no-one has built immunity against strangler, have they b)

[Wakop]

Talking about Robert Arryn's tolerance to that poisin in specific, if it is true, could it be due to the fact that he was still drinking his mother's milk?
I'm really not sure if I am getting show and books all mixed up here, but if Lysa was taking sweetsleep, that could explain Robert's tolerance right?

[Mithras]

Since he's been banging out Lysa for years, it's possible that SR is LFs child. Which in turn puts him in parallel to Theon and the miller's wife and the possibility of killing his own child.

 

But if that was the case, Lysa would mention that when she lashed out. The only condition is that Lysa did not know that the father was LF.

[Lord Varys]

This is completely at odds with Colemon's assessment that Sweetsleep accumulates in the body, highly endangering any patient who takes the drug over a longer period of time. That's why he is so adamant that Lord Robert cannot get another dose for a longer period of time. It doesn't seem possible to immunize yourself against Sweetsleep by taking multiple small dosages over a longer period of time.

 

The idea that Robert slept in Lysa's solar in the Tower of the Hand is also not confirmed. Lysa could breastfeed the boy in his own room - we are talking about great lords here, not some modern family. Husband, wife, and children have their own rooms. Not to mention that Lysa could have visited Petyr in his apartments to have sex with him rather than dragging him into the Tower of the Hand for all that.

 

More importantly, if Lysa had been given Sweetsleep to Robert one would expect that Colemon knew about that, right? There is little reason to assume that Lysa would not turn to her maester for any of that, not to mention that she would never endanger Robert's life for a little bit of sex.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Since he's been banging out Lysa for years, it's possible that SR is LFs child. Which in turn puts him in parallel to Theon and the miller's wife and the possibility of killing his own child.

Isn't Theon way to young to father children the age of Bran? I mean biologically.



I believe sweetsleep weakens the body over time, to the point it poisons. I believe it was that what is said in the Eyrie. Like some poisons in real world, that minimal but continuous doses over long time will cause illness and of course death.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't think LF plans to kill Sweetrobin. I think he just expects him not to live because he's weak and sickly and has tremors.  LF doesn't seem the kind to take the maester's warnings seriously.  Sweetsleep helps him present his step-son (or son) as a healthy boy who merely needs a guiding hand from his loving step-father to grow up to become a great lord.

 

I believe the whole point of the sweetsleep is so we will know how Tommen was killed, after he's found dead.

[cocoalover1956]

Isn't Theon way to young to father children the age of Bran? I mean biologically.

 

The theory goes that the younger boy, who's Rickon's age, is Theon's kid. Rickon is 3/4 and Theon is 21, so he would have been 16/17/18 when the kid was conceived.

[mywintersong]

I don't think LF plans to kill Sweetrobin. I think he just expects him not to live because he's weak and sickly and has tremors.  LF doesn't seem the kind to take the maester's warnings seriously.  Sweetsleep helps him present his step-son (or son) as a healthy boy who merely needs a guiding hand from his loving step-father to grow up to become a great lord.

 

I believe the whole point of the sweetsleep is so we will know how Tommen was killed, after he's found dead.

 

I don't think LF plans to kill Sweetrobin. I think he just expects him not to live because he's weak and sickly and has tremors.  LF doesn't seem the kind to take the maester's warnings seriously.  Sweetsleep helps him present his step-son (or son) as a healthy boy who merely needs a guiding hand from his loving step-father to grow up to become a great lord.

 

I believe the whole point of the sweetsleep is so we will know how Tommen was killed, after he's found dead.

 

Smart. Poor kid, I wish he didn't have to die. 

[Mithras]

This is completely at odds with Colemon's assessment that Sweetsleep accumulates in the body, highly endangering any patient who takes the drug over a longer period of time. That's why he is so adamant that Lord Robert cannot get another dose for a longer period of time. It doesn't seem possible to immunize yourself against Sweetsleep by taking multiple small dosages over a longer period of time.

 

This is completely at odds with Colemon's expectation that Sweetrobin's nose must have bled but it did not happen.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Whatever happens and whether or not Robyn is LF's son, the one thing LF can not let happen is let Robyn die before HtH marries Sansa. And even after it's tricky for LF.

If Robyn dies, before LF's "daughter", Sansa, marries HtH, he loses all official standing that being Lord Protector gave him.

If Robyn dies after the wedding, LF's position in the Vale as the new Lord's father in-law remains stable. That is until he reveals Sansa as herself, which I actually don't see happening.

So whatever poison LF gives Robyn, he is going to be somewhat cognizant of the dosage, so as not to have Robyn die at an inappropriate moment.

[Lord Wraith]

Here is another good take on the OP's premise.

[TheReal_Rebel]

Here is another good take on the OP's premise.

I disagree with notion that Robyn Arryn necessarily has epilepsy. If you take a look through web MD you will find several conditions that have similar symptoms.

Also epileptic seizures are not dependent on a person's emotional state as Robyn's seizures are.

[Ahai Ahoy]

LF does not want to kill Sweetrobin. He needs him alive; control of Robin is essential to his standing in the Vale.

 

If he did want to poison him then he would just do it. No pussy-footing around with little doses.

[Lord Varys]

Mithras,

 

is it? We actually don't know why Colemon asked that. At that time Littlefinger wasn't at the Eyrie, and Colemon may have administered another drug to Robert, possibly an antidote to Sweetsleep if such a thing exists. Robert complained that his milk didn't taste sweet but burned somehow, suggesting that Sweetsleep wasn't the issue there. Colemon is afraid for Robert's life in Alayne's last chapter, that much is clear.

 

Lady Blizzardborn,

 

In AFfC Littlefinger seems to be rather eager to plan Robert's death. And if there is a non-maester who should be very aware of the effects of various poisons it would be Littlefinger. Remember, the man also knows how the Tears of Lys work. It is him who suggests Sweetsleep to Colemon, and from that fact we have to deduce that he is quite aware what he is doing, and how risky things can get for Robert if they make a habit out of the whole thing.

[Bloodmane]

I disagree with notion that Robyn Arryn necessarily has epilepsy. If you take a look through web MD you will find several conditions that have similar symptoms.

Also epileptic seizures are not dependent on a person's emotional state as Robyn's seizures are.

 

SR may be epileptic, although most of his "shaking fits" would clearly be clasified as PNES-s (psichogenic non-epileptic seisures) , there was a single fit described where I was not 100% sure that it was psichogenic (I would say 80% PNES -20% complex partial seisure). But in real world genuine epileptic patients also tend to develop psichogenic seisures, and those depend almost exclusively on emotional factors.

 

This is completely at odds with Colemon's assessment that Sweetsleep accumulates in the body, highly endangering any patient who takes the drug over a longer period of time.

 

Not completely at odds. There could be a developing tolerance to sweetsleep (making an acute letal intoxication with the usual doses unprobable), but in the mean time it could also lead to a chronic -posibly irreversible - toxicity.

[Lord Varys]

Well, I'd assume the maesters knew if small dosages of Sweetsleep administered over time could lead to a tolerance. As I understand it this stuff is a hideous substance which accumulates in the body - say, like certain heavy metals - and then only another drop is enough to have the same effect as a lethal dosage. It is clearly established that Sweetsleep isn't a drug which leaves the body quickly, and that's the danger there. While the stuff is still in your system it can kill you if you continue to take small dosages until the lethal dosage is reached.

 

I'm not expert on poisons but as far as I know you can only develop a tolerance or immunity if your system actually can deal with the substance, that is attack and/or discharge it. But that is not the case with Sweetsleep.

[Bloodmane]

Well, I'd assume the maesters knew if small dosages of Sweetsleep administered over time could lead to a tolerance. As I understand it this stuff is a hideous substance which accumulates in the body - say, like certain heavy metals - and then only another drop is enough to have the same effect as a lethal dosage. It is clearly established that Sweetsleep isn't a drug which leaves the body quickly, and that's the danger there. While the stuff is still in your system it can kill you if you continue to take small dosages until the lethal dosage is reached.

 

I'm not expert on poisons but as far as I know you can only develop a tolerance or immunity if your system actually can deal with the substance, that is attack and/or discharge it. But that is not the case with Sweetsleep.

 

Nope. It sufice that the targeted receptors of the substance be down-regulated (ex. alcohol,  opioids or sedative-hypnotics in real life, the later is just the group swetsleep could belong to).