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Another take on the poisoning of Sweetrobin


Mithras

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Well, I'd assume the maesters knew if small dosages of Sweetsleep administered over time could lead to a tolerance. As I understand it this stuff is a hideous substance which accumulates in the body - say, like certain heavy metals - and then only another drop is enough to have the same effect as a lethal dosage. It is clearly established that Sweetsleep isn't a drug which leaves the body quickly, and that's the danger there. While the stuff is still in your system it can kill you if you continue to take small dosages until the lethal dosage is reached.

 

I'm not expert on poisons but as far as I know you can only develop a tolerance or immunity if your system actually can deal with the substance, that is attack and/or discharge it. But that is not the case with Sweetsleep.

 

But LF is not a maester.

 

We know that the milk of the poppy didnot do any good to Gregor because he was using it heavily for his headaches. That is another example of increased drug tolerance and a maester knew that. In Sweetrobin's case, Colemon is worried because he does not know that SR was being given sweetsleep for a long time.

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You don't have to be a maester to be an expert on poison. The Faceless Men know their stuff, too. And Littlefinger is self-taught in a lot of fields, so it comes as no surprise that he knows his way around poisons as well as in the accounting field.

 

In Gregor's case I'm not sure whether he was more tolerant to the milk of the poppy or whether the pain for the spell-induced poison Oberyn used on him simply was too strong for it.

 

The point is that it does not seem likely that Sweetsleep is a substance you can develop a tolerance or immunity. If Colemon is right when he states the dangers of Sweetsleep - and we have no reason believe that he is not - then it does not matter if Robert had been given Sweetsleep in the past or not. He could not have possibly developed a tolerance there.

 

Not to mention that the 'medical layman Littlefinger' would have surely said something had he known that Robert had been given Sweetsleep in the past, just as Lysa would have told him in the past if that had been the case. Lysa wouldn't have done anything to possibly endanger the life of her only child.

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You don't have to be a maester to be an expert on poison. The Faceless Men know their stuff, too. And Littlefinger is self-taught in a lot of fields, so it comes as no surprise that he knows his way around poisons as well as in the accounting field.

 

Poison is not something you can learn on your own.

 

In Gregor's case I'm not sure whether he was more tolerant to the milk of the poppy or whether the pain for the spell-induced poison Oberyn used on him simply was too strong for it.

 

Are you going against Qyburn in this matter?

 

The point is that it does not seem likely that Sweetsleep is a substance you can develop a tolerance or immunity. If Colemon is right when he states the dangers of Sweetsleep - and we have no reason believe that he is not - then it does not matter if Robert had been given Sweetsleep in the past or not. He could not have possibly developed a tolerance there.

 

Colemon could not finish his sentence. What danger are you talking about?

 

“It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . .”

 

Perhaps he was going to say that it would cause addiction.

 

Not to mention that the 'medical layman Littlefinger' would have surely said something had he known that Robert had been given Sweetsleep in the past, just as Lysa would have told him in the past if that had been the case. Lysa wouldn't have done anything to possibly endanger the life of her only child.

 

I am claiming that Lysa and LF used sweetsleep to drug Sweetrobin to sleep while they were having sex in the same bed. Nothing suggests that they know the dangers of sweetsleep.

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“Did you observe any shaking while you were with him?”

“His fingers trembled a little bit when I held his hand, that’s all. He says you put something vile in his milk.”

“Vile?” Colemon blinked at her, and the apple in his throat moved up and down. “I merely . . . is he bleeding from the nose?”

“No.”

“Good. That is good.” His chain clinked softly as he bobbed his head, atop a ridiculously long and skinny neck. “This descent . . . my lady, it might be safest if I mixed his lordship some milk of the poppy. Mya Stone could lash him over the back of her most surefooted mule whilst he slumbered.”

 

The important thing here is that whatever that vile thing, it was not Sweetsleep. Colemon was most probably trying a cure for the shaking disease. The nasal bleeding was a symptom he expected as a side effect of that cure.

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I like this twist of Sweetrobin becoming immune. I'd love to see LF's face when he tries to poison him! :D

 

On the other hand, no-one has built immunity against strangler, have they B)

Reminds me of The Princess Bride and building up an immunity to Iocaine powder. Lol. 

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<snip

 

Lady Blizzardborn,

 

In AFfC Littlefinger seems to be rather eager to plan Robert's death. And if there is a non-maester who should be very aware of the effects of various poisons it would be Littlefinger. Remember, the man also knows how the Tears of Lys work. It is him who suggests Sweetsleep to Colemon, and from that fact we have to deduce that he is quite aware what he is doing, and how risky things can get for Robert if they make a habit out of the whole thing.

Yes, LF knows about Tears of Lys, and he knows about the Strangler.  So maybe he knows about some other poisons too.  But he also knows that the Lords of the Vale don't trust him, so it's really to his benefit to keep Sweetrobin alive as long as possible.

 

I interpret his actions not as deliberately trying to off the kid, but as taking a calculated risk to make himself look better to the Valemen.  If little Lord Robert starts having his fits in front of everybody, someone will probably accuse LF of poisoning him. Funny, huh?  If the kid appears to be doing better under LF's care, then the lords might be lulled into distrusting LF a bit less.  And if he does happen to die from the medicine, well he's got a back-up plan or three in mind.  

 

By the way, I don't remotely believe that he intends for Sansa to marry Harry.  And if Sansa isn't marrying the heir to the Vale, there's no reason to off Robert Arryn.

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What we all believe doesn't matter all that much in this whole scheme. Littlefinger only tells us what he wants us to know. However, if Littlefinger wanted to murder Lord Robert - and that's how things look to me despite the fact that I don't want this to happen - doing it with Sweetsleep would be a good way. After all, Colemon is complicit in the whole plan, and thus cannot easily rat him out, and considering Robert's general health pretty much no one will question it if he suddenly dies. But the most important aspect of this thing is that with this way of poisoning Littlefinger is in control of the whole thing until the final dosage is administered and can always change his mind simply by not giving him the dosage.

Not to mention that Colemon would also be the perfect scapegoat if anyone suspects a poisoning. After all, the man is the maester, not Littlefinger, and he most certainly is never going to administer the poison himself nor would he have any real reason to kill his stepson.

 

And the idea that 'poison is not something you can learn on your own' is simply wrong. Littlefinger clearly never learned at the Citadel nor was he a Faceless Man in training, yet he still knows about the Tears of Lys and the Strangler - he does not only know how those poisons work, he can also buy them without leaving a trace.

 

If I remember correctly then Pycelle was already treating Gregor with the milk of the poppy back in ASoS long before he was given over to Qyburn - he could have developed his addiction there. But this has nothing to do with the properties of Sweetsleep.

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And the idea that 'poison is not something you can learn on your own' is simply wrong. Littlefinger clearly never learned at the Citadel nor was he a Faceless Man in training, yet he still knows about the Tears of Lys and the Strangler - he does not only know how those poisons work, he can also buy them without leaving a trace.

 

You don't become a doctor when you buy some medicine.

 

Mithras, it is possible there was nothing in the milk on that occasions, and Robert was simply used to a sweeter taste from the sweetsleep.

 

But Colemon talks like he really put something in it for some curative purpose.

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If I remember correctly then Pycelle was already treating Gregor with the milk of the poppy back in ASoS long before he was given over to Qyburn - he could have developed his addiction there. But this has nothing to do with the properties of Sweetsleep.

 

No, Qyburn learned from Gregor's squire that Gregor used to drink milk of the poppy like a normal person drinks wine. This is a clear addiction and increased drug tolerance case. As I told before, we do not know for sure that Sweetsleep buildup kills people. What we do know is that it has a known mortal OD. Colemon could not finish his sentence. Perhaps he fears that Sweetrobin will develop an addiction if he keeps getting sweetsleep like that. And like all the addicts, he will require more doses to have the desired effect and at one point it will lead to the golden shot.

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Even if Robert became addicted to Sweetsleep that wouldn't endanger his life at all as long as the person administering it wouldn't give him a mortal dosage. You only take a golden shot if you do it yourself, not if somebody who knows what amount would kill administers the stuff. It only makes sense to assume that the poison stays in his body or else there would be no need to insist that he shouldn't receive another dosage for a half year or so. Robert suffering from withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean they will cure him by giving him a lethal dosage. Not to mention that nobody ever said that continued Sweetsleep usage causes an addiction.

 

And Littlefinger would never risk the life of Robert to make him behave or appear healthy if the medicine involved could kill him - unless he is actually fine with that outcome.

 

In this backwater world it is enough to read one or two good treatises on poisons to become an expert in the field. And Littlefinger has the intelligence and the money to do both. There are no rocket scientists in Westeros when I looked last, their science is a joke everybody can master who isn't a moron. How do you think people learn stuff at the Citadel? Yeah, for practical need they also open corpses and stuff, but like in the real world people would have written down what they knew about, say, anatomy, and this stuff can then be read by others. 

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Even if Robert became addicted to Sweetsleep that wouldn't endanger his life at all as long as the person administering it wouldn't give him a mortal dosage. You only take a golden shot if you do it yourself, not if somebody who knows what amount would kill administers the stuff. It only makes sense to assume that the poison stays in his body or else there would be no need to insist that he shouldn't receive another dosage for a half year or so. Robert suffering from withdrawal symptoms doesn't mean they will cure him by giving him a lethal dosage. Not to mention that nobody ever said that continued Sweetsleep usage causes an addiction.

 

And Littlefinger would never risk the life of Robert to make him behave or appear healthy if the medicine involved could kill him - unless he is actually fine with that outcome.

 

In this backwater world it is enough to read one or two good treatises on poisons to become an expert in the field. And Littlefinger has the intelligence and the money to do both. There are no rocket scientists in Westeros when I looked last, their science is a joke everybody can master who isn't a moron. How do you think people learn stuff at the Citadel? Yeah, for practical need they also open corpses and stuff, but like in the real world people would have written down what they knew about, say, anatomy, and this stuff can then be read by others. 

 

Colemon has no authority in giving sweetsleep to Sweetrobin. He has to obey what LF commands. In time, Sweetrobin will need a mortal dosage to prevent the shaking.

 

Most of the poisons are used for medical purposes. LF could very well give Sweetrobin some sweetsleep for the purpose of preventing the shaking.

 

The Citadel keeps the poison lore secret as much as possible.

 

At this point, I don't even know what we are debating about.

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Well, if Colemon knows the symptoms of alleged Sweetsleep withdrawal while also realizing that only a 'golden shot dosage' could overcome them or have the desired effect on his shaking sickness, he clearly would very much advise Littlefinger against giving him that dosage since it would kill him, don't you think? And if Littlefinger does not want to kill Lord Robert, then he would agree with Colemon there - or he would have to order Colemon to kill his stepson.

 

How do you know that the Citadel keeps the poison lore as secret as possible? And even if that was the case - which we don't know - then it is quite clear that those efforts are pitiful at best. Varys and Littlefinger do know stuff about poison, not to mention that both have connections into the Free Cities were this knowledge is also available. But the very idea that Littlefinger could not buy 'forbidden or secret knowledge' from a corrupt maester is ridiculous. Not to mention that information on poisons may actually be in standard books on medicine considering the fact that many drugs can be both medicine and poison, and any healer has to know the effects of it to not administer a lethal dosage.

 

Sweetsleep is clearly a drug that is also used for medical purposes - the Tears of Lys and the Strangler clearly aren't. Yet Littlefinger knows perfectly well how these two work, suggesting that he has ample knowledge about the effects of these two poisons, and thus most likely poisons in general. It is not coincidence that he suggested to Colemon to use Sweetsleep on Robert - and considering that Colemon didn't ask how the hell the Lord Protector knows about this stuff suggests he either knows that Littlefinger has medical knowledge or is aware of the fact that many people do, and thus this wasn't all that exceptional.

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Yeah, I kinda think it's silly to claim that someone as intelligent and well connected as LF wouldn't have the means to learn about poisons. There are thousands of criminals around the world with absolutely no education and very limited resources, that learn to make complex bombs and learn to make drugs with dangerous chemicals. I don't think all these people are doctors or chemists.
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What we all believe doesn't matter all that much in this whole scheme. Littlefinger only tells us what he wants us to know. However, if Littlefinger wanted to murder Lord Robert - and that's how things look to me despite the fact that I don't want this to happen - doing it with Sweetsleep would be a good way. After all, Colemon is complicit in the whole plan, and thus cannot easily rat him out, and considering Robert's general health pretty much no one will question it if he suddenly dies. But the most important aspect of this thing is that with this way of poisoning Littlefinger is in control of the whole thing until the final dosage is administered and can always change his mind simply by not giving him the dosage.

Not to mention that Colemon would also be the perfect scapegoat if anyone suspects a poisoning. After all, the man is the maester, not Littlefinger, and he most certainly is never going to administer the poison himself nor would he have any real reason to kill his stepson.

 

And the idea that 'poison is not something you can learn on your own' is simply wrong. Littlefinger clearly never learned at the Citadel nor was he a Faceless Man in training, yet he still knows about the Tears of Lys and the Strangler - he does not only know how those poisons work, he can also buy them without leaving a trace.

 

If I remember correctly then Pycelle was already treating Gregor with the milk of the poppy back in ASoS long before he was given over to Qyburn - he could have developed his addiction there. But this has nothing to do with the properties of Sweetsleep.

I dare you to find even one thing on which "we all believe" the same things.

 

My beliefs are based on analysis of the series and of the individual characters, as well as common sense.  If you think Littlefinger has actually revealed his whole plan to Sansa, I think you need to reread the books.  He never tells anyone the whole plan.

 

Sansa cannot marry Harry Hardyng.  She's legally married to Tyrion Lannister who as yet is not dead.  She can't go to King's Landing to petition for an annulment as long as Cersei is there, and when it is safe for her to go, there's still a regicide charge hanging over her head.

 

I didn't say LF learned about poisons on his own.  I didn't even speculate as to how he learned what he knows, let alone claim he learned on his own.  Was that comment meant for someone else?

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I dare you to find even one thing on which "we all believe" the same things.

 

My beliefs are based on analysis of the series and of the individual characters, as well as common sense.  If you think Littlefinger has actually revealed his whole plan to Sansa, I think you need to reread the books.  He never tells anyone the whole plan.

 

Sansa cannot marry Harry Hardyng.  She's legally married to Tyrion Lannister who as yet is not dead.  She can't go to King's Landing to petition for an annulment as long as Cersei is there, and when it is safe for her to go, there's still a regicide charge hanging over her head.

 

I didn't say LF learned about poisons on his own.  I didn't even speculate as to how he learned what he knows, let alone claim he learned on his own.  Was that comment meant for someone else?

 

Sansa can't marry him but Alayne Stone can.

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