R+L=J v. 152

[Lord Varys]

SFDanny,

 

I really don't think Robert thinks that way. Ned was his best friend. He wouldn't kill his bastard nephew and Lyanna's just to restore his honor. Especially not if that would mean that he would forever destroy his friendship to Eddard Stark and make House Stark his mortal enemy. At that early point in his 'reign' - shortly after the Trident and the Sack - Ned easily would have had the power to destroy him since he was actually the one who commanded the Northmen and had a marriage alliance with House Tully. If push came to shove Robert would only have the Stormlords, and they did apparently not make up the bulk of the rebel army at the Trident and in KL.

 

And I really don't think Robert was as vindictive as you seem to think he was. He would not have commanded the murder of Rhaegar's children himself, he just did not punish the deed. And later he failed to arrange the murder of Viserys and Dany in exile for about 14 years. Jon Arryn wouldn't have been able to dissuade him from that if he had been really obsessed with murdering the last Targaryens.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

SFDanny,
 
I really don't think Robert thinks that way. Ned was his best friend. He wouldn't kill his bastard nephew and Lyanna's just to restore his honor. Especially not if that would mean that he would forever destroy his friendship to Eddard Stark and make House Stark his mortal enemy. At that early point in his 'reign' - shortly after the Trident and the Sack - Ned easily would have had the power to destroy him since he was actually the one who commanded the Northmen and had a marriage alliance with House Tully. If push came to shove Robert would only have the Stormlords, and they did apparently not make up the bulk of the rebel army at the Trident and in KL.
 
And I really don't think Robert was as vindictive as you seem to think he was. He would not have commanded the murder of Rhaegar's children himself, he just did not punish the deed. And later he failed to arrange the murder of Viserys and Dany in exile for about 14 years. Jon Arryn wouldn't have been able to dissuade him from that if he had been really obsessed with murdering the last Targaryens.

Agreed completely. It would have been a risky move and probably marked his downhill as well. And honestly I don't even think that he bothered to acknowledge Jon as a possible bastard. I assume he was in denial, that Rhaegar could have actually fathered a child.

I wouldn't have either probably.

[BearQueen87]

SFDanny,

 

I really don't think Robert thinks that way. Ned was his best friend. He wouldn't kill his bastard nephew and Lyanna's just to restore his honor. Especially not if that would mean that he would forever destroy his friendship to Eddard Stark and make House Stark his mortal enemy. At that early point in his 'reign' - shortly after the Trident and the Sack - Ned easily would have had the power to destroy him since he was actually the one who commanded the Northmen and had a marriage alliance with House Tully. If push came to shove Robert would only have the Stormlords, and they did apparently not make up the bulk of the rebel army at the Trident and in KL.

 

And I really don't think Robert was as vindictive as you seem to think he was. He would not have commanded the murder of Rhaegar's children himself, he just did not punish the deed. And later he failed to arrange the murder of Viserys and Dany in exile for about 14 years. Jon Arryn wouldn't have been able to dissuade him from that if he had been really obsessed with murdering the last Targaryens.

 

But could Robert have honestly stopped others from going after little Jon? Say, a certain Tywin Lannister who already ordered the death of Rhaegar's other two children and was never punished for it?

[Lord Varys]

Tywin and Robert are separate issues. At the time we are speaking about - shortly after the Sack - the Lannisters hadn't really joined or won the trust of the rebels yet. That only happened, as far as Jon Arryn or Robert were concerned, only after the Robert-Cersei marriage.

 

Tywin had not really trouble with the Targaryens or their children in general. His command to kill the children was part of his opportunistic agenda to win Robert's trust and eventually his hand for his daughter. By killing Aerys and his grandchildren he ensured that Robert bought that he had forsaken House Targaryen forever. Had he done less Robert may have treated him like Hoster treated Walder Frey after the war - with mistrust and scorn.

 

There would have been no reason for Tywin to go after Lyanna's bastard child by Rhaegar. Why should he? He also did not send assassins after Edric Storm or Robert's other acknowledged bastards. Even if Tywin had reason to believe the child was Rhaegar's legitimate son - going after him would have been Robert's call, not Tywin's. Considering the friendship between Ned and Robert Tywin would have risked the wrath of the king had he decided target the boy without the king's leave.

 

I agree that Rhaegar's legitimate son would have been in danger, and I'm inclined to believe that that's what Lyanna may have feared - or that he would become somebody's (that is the knights') pawn in a political game like Aegon is right now - but that only goes if he is Rhaegar's legitimate son. His bastard would have no reason to fear such a thing, especially not a bastard who was born posthumously and never recognized as Rhaegar's son by his father. I mean, even if Lyanna and Rhaegar were married without his father proclaiming him his son everything anyone else would say - even the Kingsguard knights - would just be talk and hearsay that could be dismissed. And with such a child in the care of Eddard Stark there is no chance that any Targaryen loyalists try to use it to their advantage, especially if it looks like Eddard Stark and they can't be sure that it is really Rhaegar's son.

 

I only bring that up because I think Ned made Jon Snow his bastard rather than Lyanna's because I think he could not really do that - which means that people were aware of the fact that Rhaegar and Lyanna married.

 

And we should always keep in mind that Robert deeply loved Lyanna, according to Ned he loved her more than Ned himself loved Lyanna. That makes it very unlikely that Robert would harm any child of her, be it born of rape, lust, or love - or in wedlock or outside of it. We can't even be completely sure that Robert doesn't suspect something about Jon. The man was Ned's best friend, and if I were Ned's best friend I'd raise more than one eyebrow if he tried to sell me the story that he had fathered a bastard on some woman I never met - especially not after he had married recently. Not to mention that I'd be very curious to have a look on this goddess who could get Ned Stark to forget his marriage vows. And it is rather striking that Robert asks Ned about his bastard when he sets out to discuss Daenerys' marriage with him. If Robert is not as stupid as he appears on occasion, then Ned's unwillingness to discuss Wylla/Jon and his opposition to murder Dany/Viserys should be more than enough to confirm any suspicions he may have about Jon Snow.

[Selena]

 

But could Robert have honestly stopped others from going after little Jon? Say, a certain Tywin Lannister who already ordered the death of Rhaegar's other two children and was never punished for it?

exactly..Robert on his own MIGHT have surprised us...Robert surrounded by Lannisters will either demand Jon's head or shut his eyes and turn the other way while Tywin "handles" it

[Bael's Bastard]

I have no doubt that in the early days Robert definitely would have allowed, possibly even commanded, Jon to be killed. He may not have been able to do it himself, and may have regretted it later. But if he had found out that Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child (not to mention that Ned was keeping it from him), I have no doubt the child's life would be in danger from the royal family.

[Lord Varys]

I don't really see why. Even a legitimate child disguised as Ned's bastard would lose its identity to such a degree that it could not possibly become a real threat to Robert's dynasty. If you besmirch somebody's honor something will always stick. Which means that even if the truth about Jon would be revealed at one point many people would either not follow because of his looks and his past as a bastard of another man as well as simply dismiss the truth as a mere story. After all, even Targaryen loyalists want to get something out of being loyal - that's not likely to happen if he may be a bastard.

 

But a bastard simply doesn't have a claim - and he would be Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew. If Robert tried to kill him he could also declare war on Ned or Lyanna (if she survived). That's just a stupid idea. And Robert did not try to kill Viserys and Daenerys for 14 years despite the fact that he could sent many assassins after them. If Robert didn't kill them why the hell should we assume he would have killed Lyanna's child? Viserys and Daenerys were Aerys' children, whereas Jon Snow was also Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew, people Robert would have felt much closer to than his Targaryen cousins.

 

If Robert had believed Ned had kept Jon from him to make him king in his place he would have been angry, of course. But if Ned told him he had made him his bastard to ensure he never learned the truth about his parentage and never put forth a claim to the Iron Throne then he would actually have been thankful. And Ned could easily have proven his worth by handing over Jon to the Night's Watch - which he eventually did, anyway. Case closed.

[Selena]

I don't really see why. Even a legitimate child disguised as Ned's bastard would lose its identity to such a degree that it could not possibly become a real threat to Robert's dynasty. If you besmirch somebody's honor something will always stick. Which means that even if the truth about Jon would be revealed at one point many people would either not follow because of his looks and his past as a bastard of another man as well as simply dismiss the truth as a mere story. After all, even Targaryen loyalists want to get something out of being loyal - that's not likely to happen if he may be a bastard.

 

But a bastard simply doesn't have a claim - and he would be Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew. If Robert tried to kill him he could also declare war on Ned or Lyanna (if she survived). That's just a stupid idea. And Robert did not try to kill Viserys and Daenerys for 14 years despite the fact that he could sent many assassins after them. If Robert didn't kill them why the hell should we assume he would have killed Lyanna's child? Viserys and Daenerys were Aerys' children, whereas Jon Snow was also Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew, people Robert would have felt much closer to than his Targaryen cousins.

 

If Robert had believed Ned had kept Jon from him to make him king in his place he would have been angry, of course. But if Ned told him he had made him his bastard to ensure he never learned the truth about his parentage and never put forth a claim to the Iron Throne then he would actually have been thankful. And Ned could easily have proven his worth by handing over Jon to the Night's Watch - which he eventually did, anyway. Case closed.

Westeros history is full of reasons why a royal bastard is  a MAJOR political threat.  If Robert knows, Cersie knows. If Cersie knows,Tywin knows. Neither of them are going to let Jon hang out in Winterfell under Ned's protection. If Robert doesnt call for his  head just for being Rhaegars son the Lannisters will do everything they can to convince him to do it because he is a threat to his children 

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

 

I really don't think Robert thinks that way. Ned was his best friend. He wouldn't kill his bastard nephew and Lyanna's just to restore his honor. Especially not if that would mean that he would forever destroy his friendship to Eddard Stark and make House Stark his mortal enemy. At that early point in his 'reign' - shortly after the Trident and the Sack - Ned easily would have had the power to destroy him since he was actually the one who commanded the Northmen and had a marriage alliance with House Tully. If push came to shove Robert would only have the Stormlords, and they did apparently not make up the bulk of the rebel army at the Trident and in KL.

 

And I really don't think Robert was as vindictive as you seem to think he was. He would not have commanded the murder of Rhaegar's children himself, he just did not punish the deed. And later he failed to arrange the murder of Viserys and Dany in exile for about 14 years. Jon Arryn wouldn't have been able to dissuade him from that if he had been really obsessed with murdering the last Targaryens.

 

That's ok, of course LV, but let me explain why I think Robert does think this way.

 

 

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

<snip> description of the battle between Robert and Rhaegar on the Trident </snip>

"In my dreams, I kill him every night," Robert admitted. "A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves." (AGoT 36) bold emphasis added

 

Fourteen years after the Trident and Robert still dreams of killing Rhaegar and regrets not being able to kill him more than once.

 

 

"Unspeakable?" the king roared. "What Aerys did to your brother Brandon was unspeakable. The way your lord father died, that was unspeakable. And Rhaegar ... how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times? His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed his angry finger at Ned. "I  will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves." (AGoT 94) bold emphasis added

 

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves" Robert says because of the crimes of Aerys and Rhaegar. Not only does he dream of killing Rhaegar some fourteen years after doing so, but the wounds are so fresh he wants to kill every Targaryen, in this case Daenerys for the crime of wedding a Dothraki Khal and having the possibility of having a child. When he talks of killing every Targaryen, I think he means it.

 

But not all of his obsession is equally focused. It looks to be Rhaegar who is the prime target of Robert's still white-hot rage.

 

 

"He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword."

"Seven hells, someone had to kill Aerys! Robert said, reining his mount to a sudden halt beside an ancient barrow. "If Jaime hadn't done it, it would have been left for you or me." (AGoT 96)) bold emphasis added

 

The king who called for Robert's and Ned's head, and the king who brutally killed Rickard and Brandon along with almost all of their companions had to be killed, but it really didn't matter to Robert who did it. He doesn't dream of killing Aerys over and over again. With Rhaegar it has to be Robert who kills him and killing him a thousand times is not enough. The difference, of course, is that it is Rhaegar who takes Lyanna, not Aerys. It is with Lyanna that Robert's honor is in question, both as a Lord and as a man. Rhaegar presumes to trample on the Lord of Storm's End's right to make a marriage. He dishonors his rights as a lord by doing so, and like his ancestor Robert is angered and dishonored. As a man, it is Robert's view, that Lyanna should have been his property, and Rhaegar has not only stolen his bride-to-be, but has soiled her in the most intimate way possible. His reaction is visceral and barely kept in check even fourteen years later.

 

Given all the above context, we must place the possibility of Jon being Rhaegar's bastard son with Lyanna. As such, even without a claim to Robert's throne, he would be the living embodiment of Rhaegar's dishonoring Robert. How can one believe Robert would react to finding out Jon's identity by a cool, rational, calculation of a threat assessment of Jon's chances of winning the throne? That's not his motivation, and it wouldn't be how he sees Jon.

 

In the immediate aftermath of Lyanna's death, if Ned had brought Jon to Robert and told him who he was, would that have changed the way Robert saw him? Hardly. "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn" Robert says about Elia's children - to whom he has nothing of the same intimate dishonor. They are just the children of Rhaegar, and therefore beneath contempt and unworthy to be considered innocents. The child of Rhaegar by what Robert considers the rape of Lyanna would hardly deserve more consideration in his eyes. If one thinks upon the possibility of Jon's identity being revealed to Robert after Ned had hidden Jon from him for years, the matter is only made worse by his best friend's betrayal. At this point we truly are talking about Robert's anger pursuing Ned, Jon, and the rest of the Starks to the "back of beyond" if need be. A very good reason for Ned to tell no one, not even Catelyn or Jon, who Jon really is.

 

So, in response to your idea that Robert wouldn't kill Ned's bastard nephew, or Lyanna's son, in order to restore his honor, let me just say I agree. Robert would never do that based on those relationships. He would do that, and much more, to the bastard son of Rhaegar, conceived through the rape of Lyanna. I think he tells us so.

 

As to the power Ned had to destroy Robert's new kingship, I think you overestimate Ned's power, and the force of the ties of both the Tullys and the Arryns, and most certainly with the Lannisters and the rest of the High Lords. I also don't think such calculations would enter into such a break between Ned and Robert. It never comes to that, and I think Ned's promise to Lyanna would not be contingent on Ned weighing out the possible outcome of such a war. Ned makes his promise to Lyanna knowing of danger, but honor bound to do what is right come what may. Certainly Robert never makes such a calculation.

 

Anyway, that's my thinking. I know we read this differently, but I think you can see why I see it the way I do.

[Ser Naufragus]

On Tywin. Killing the kids was likely about the Lannisters. They were planning on making a move for the throne regardless if it was Robert or Rhaegar. Had Tywin been made hand again like he surely expected, Roberts reign might not have last long after Joffrey's birth. Tywin likely had in mind to just take the throne at the sack. Cant have any Targlings laying around.
At the time you could count the Targs on one hand. Various people wanted the line snuffed out. Dany and V likely have died on dragonstone if Rhaella hadn't sent them away. Any male issue of R+L was always a target.

Its pretty obvious that there was a master plot in the works to overthrow the Targs before the entire Robs Rebellion events. If Rob's Rebellion hadn't happened, when we start in GOT there would have been Stark/Tulleys and Stark/Baratheons and Likely they hoped for more than Sweet Robin with Arryn/Tullys. A marriage with those kids would have created a virtual Kwisatz Haderach with children holding claims to 2-3 kingdoms and able to topple a weak targ

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

If there was a son of Rhaegar still in Westeros, legitimate or not, there would be those who disliked Robert's reign (and those are plenty) who would seek to use the boy against Robert. The threat Viserys posed became less when he went across the Narrow Sea, but a child in Westeros would be a danger.

So if it wasn't Robert who would want him death, either for the 'crime' of being Rhaegar's blood or for posing a threat to him and his children for all their years to come, then surely others would either seek to dispose of him, or use him.

As to Lyanna and Rhaegar and the possibility of a publicly known marriage... If they had indeed married in public, and Ned showed up with an infant a few months old about a year later, there would be enough who would be able to see through the lies. Robert, Jon Arryn, most lords in the Vale whom Ned grew up with or was very familiar with. Had Ned claimed the child was significantly older, or younger (as per Ned's claim), which would eliminate the possibility of him being Rhaegar's, then the danger might have been averted. Might. But as far as we can tell, Ned did no such thing. As far as we are told, Jon is younger than Robb, but not by that much.. seeing as Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar only after the Bells, and Ned married Catelyn shortly after that battle... Hightower would have taken a while to reach Rhaegar, even if he knew immediately where to go (which seems quite unlikely), so nine months before Jon was born, Rhaegar could easily still have been known to have been 'unfound'... the timing was certainly vague enough for someone to see the possibility, had he/she wanted to. Yet no one apparently did, and there has to be a reason for it.

[Selena]

......Its pretty obvious that there was a master plot in the works to overthrow the Targs before the entire Robs Rebellion events. If Rob's Rebellion hadn't happened, when we start in GOT there would have been Stark/Tulleys and Stark/Baratheons and Likely they hoped for more than Sweet Robin with Arryn/Tullys. A marriage with those kids would have created a virtual Kwisatz Haderach with children holding claims to 2-3 kingdoms and able to topple a weak targ

 

this actually made me go hmmmm..

 

We have the North Loyal to the Starks

We have  Brandon marrying Cat ..connecting North and Riverlands

We have Ned fostered with Jon Arryn in The Vale, which conveniently connenct with the Riverlands

We have Lyanna marrying Robert thereby giving Starks a connection in the very south

 

So thats 3 of the 4 Wardens of the kingdom, plus the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as an extended "family".....thats a LOT of power at the next reunion

 

the fun part is when you look at the map....

 

control Winterfell, control the North

straight shot from Winterfell to Riverrun

control Riverrun control Riverlands

control Riverlands, easy access to/from The Vale

 

Kings Landing is south of Riverlands

 

Storms End is south of Kings Landing....standing between it and any help that might come from Dorne 

 

Rickard Starks southron ambitions indeed

[Ser Naufragus]

snip

speaking of Hmmmmm....

If Lyanna had not had her bed of blood, Robert obviously would have wed her.

Tywin has a good reason to see her dead if was going to get Cersai married to the king.

Lyanna was on the Lannister hit list for sure.

[Bael's Bastard]

I don't buy that Rickard had any intention to overthrow the Targs. If anything, I think he wanted to intermarry with them. Lyonel Baratheon's daughter had been betrothed to Egg's heir Duncan, and Celia Tully to his next heir Jaehaerys (later Jaehaerys II). Fostering Ned in the Vale allowed Ned and Robert to develop a bond, which later helped facilitate the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert. If a daughter had been born rather than Robert she might have been a top candidate to marry Rhaegar. The Lyanna betrothal occurred after Rhaegar/Elia, and Rickard would have good reason to think a daughter of Lyanna/Robert would be a top candidate for a son of Rhaegar.

[Selena]

I don't buy that Rickard had any intention to overthrow the Targs. If anything, I think he wanted to intermarry with them. Lyonel Baratheon's daughter had been betrothed to Egg's heir Duncan, and Celia Tully to his next heir Jaehaerys (later Jaehaerys II). Fostering Ned in the Vale allowed Ned and Robert to develop a bond, which later helped facilitate the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert. If a daughter had been born rather than Robert she might have been a top candidate to marry Rhaegar. The Lyanna betrothal occurred after Rhaegar/Elia, and Rickard would have good reason to think a daughter of Lyanna/Robert would be a top candidate for a son of Rhaegar.

 

 

oohh I am not saying Rickard was actually planning that (but you never know)..

 

but If I was a mad King with someone like Varys whispering in my ear..I would be seeing red flags EVERYWHERE

[Bael's Bastard]

I have little doubt Aerys may have eventually interpreted things that way. If he didn't before Harrenhal, I suspect he came away from it fearing an alliance between Rhaegar and the Starks. Then again, he ultimately trusted Rhaegar in sending ravens to Tywin, and to lead the forces at the Trident.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Robert did not try to kill Viserys and Daenerys for 14 years despite the fact that he could sent many assassins after them.

 

The hired knives are a meme in Dany's tellings of her childhood. We don't know if they were real or imagined, but at least should consider that maybe, they might have been real and failed for reasons unknown.

[Ser Naufragus]

I don't buy that Rickard had any intention to overthrow the Targs. If anything, I think he wanted to intermarry with them. Lyonel Baratheon's daughter had been betrothed to Egg's heir Duncan, and Celia Tully to his next heir Jaehaerys (later Jaehaerys II). Fostering Ned in the Vale allowed Ned and Robert to develop a bond, which later helped facilitate the betrothal of Lyanna to Robert. If a daughter had been born rather than Robert she might have been a top candidate to marry Rhaegar. The Lyanna betrothal occurred after Rhaegar/Elia, and Rickard would have good reason to think a daughter of Lyanna/Robert would be a top candidate for a son of Rhaegar.

It wasn't so much Rickard was the mastermind. The point was that the Empire was falling apart and the Targs where fast approaching their sell by date. There were increasing rebellions since the dragons vanished and got a bit bolder every time. Without the dragons the Targs had no real power. Egg's attempts at political marriages failed and then he killed off most of the family.

Harranhall harkens back to the tourney in the Egg story giving conspiritors a chance to meet. Rhaeger was trying to salvage the dynasty but their days were numbered.

They never intermarried in the past to prevent something like Tyrion Lannister becoming Lord of Winterfell from ever happening.

The conspirators might not have even wanted an Iron Throne and wanted to break up into independent realms.

[purple-eyes]

The hired knives are a meme in Dany's tellings of her childhood. We don't know if they were real or imagined, but at least should consider that maybe, they might have been real and failed for reasons unknown.

oohh I am not saying Rickard was actually planning that (but you never know)..
 
but If I was a mad King with someone like Varys whispering in my ear..I would be seeing red flags EVERYWHERE

Actually based on the world book, it is said that Rickard was possibly planning against Aerys, right?
That is why he sent ned to jon and promised Brandon and lyanna to cat and Robert.
He may be supporting rhaegar too.

[winterfellbeyondthewall]

Actually based on the world book, it is said that Rickard was possibly planning against Aerys, right?
That is why he sent ned to jon and promised Brandon and lyanna to cat and Robert.
He may be supporting rhaegar too.

 

It might be. Him plotting agains Aerys, does not necessarily mean, that he was opposed to the whole Targ family.