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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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SFDanny,

 

I just think we cannot be really sure if Robert was such a ruthless ass (or that much obsessed with his honor). I don't see young Robert as a guy who actually command or approve of the murder if Lyanna's children (or Ned's close kin). Robert is essentially a nice guy who doesn't like to antagonize people all that much - if you do him a favor (like Tywin and Jaime did during the Sack) he is not going to punish you for that. That is part of charisma and political program of befriending/pardoning everyone.

 

I'd say disillusioned Robert - a man who is pissed by the fact that he is king and quite aware that everything is going to hell but doesn't care - we later meet has developed a rather strong hatred towards House Targaryen and Rhaegar especially because the loss of Lyanna clearly is also part of the reason why he is stuck in this dreadful marriage with Cersei. The idea that young Robert would have even contemplated ordering the murder of young child doesn't ring true to me.

 

If Lyanna had survived she most likely would have become Robert's wife - widow or rape victim. There was a marriage contract, and if Jon Arryn can marry a despoiled girl so can Robert - especially when he is obsessed with her. But I don't see Robert coming into Lyanna's bet with bits of Jon brain on his fingers, if you get my meaning, so they would have found a way to get the bastard or the legitimate son out of the Wall (Winterfell, the Faith, the Wall, a ward of the Crown, etc.).

 

We don't know what happened to little Prince Maegor, but I very much doubt Egg had Dunk resolve that 'problem' the Tywin-Gregor way.

 

LV, you see Robert's response to a bastard child of Rhaegar through the lens of that child being the son of the woman he loved, and the nephew of his closer than a brother best friend Ned. Those relationships exists and they would pull upon Robert's feelings. I don't dispute that. I think what we have from Robert's own mouth and his actions around Elia's children and Daenerys point to another direction. I think what has ruled Robert since at least the "kidnapping" is an obsessive hatred of all things Targaryen, and especially a hatred concerning Rhaegar. It is Jon's status as likely Rhaegar's son, and the child born of what Robert claims as the rape of Lyanna that is the defining factor in his threat to Jon, or so I think. We will have to disagree on this one. I've given you the sources for my thinking, at least in part, and I respect you think differently.

 

I'm not so sure about the conjecture about Lyanna becoming Robert's wife if she had survived. In part that is because I view Robert's claims of love with a jaundiced eye. This is a man who supposedly loved Lyanna more than Ned, yet fathers at least two bastards (Gendry and Bella) between the time of the kidnapping and finding out Lyanna is dead. Perhaps Robert has a sexual addiction and can't help himself, but my guess is that it is the ideal of Lyanna, not the reality of her as an independent person, and the concept of her as his property that are really what rules his feelings. Would he claim her as his wife after the kidnapping? Possibly, but that of course says nothing about what Lyanna wants, nor how a child from Rhaegar would factor into his thinking.

 

I agree with you about infant Maegor and Egg. Aegon the Unlikely is an entirely different kind of person and king than Robert was. My bet is Maegor grows up to have a daughter who marries into her grandmother's house and gives birth to Ser Gerold Dayne - all with the approval of the ruling Targaryens. Totally off topic, but my favorite crackpot theory.  :thumbsup:

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UL,

 

Barristan ask the Hand of the King and the Small Council to be allowed to guard the king now because he is under the impression that Joffrey Baratheon will be crowned and anointed King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men soon. He has every reason to believe that Robert's chosen and recognized heir will be new king since he has no idea about Joff's true parentage or Ned's plans.

 

In Joffrey's case the succession was clear (Joffrey) until Ned revealed the truth about Cersei's children. Had Ned told Barristan then and there he would most likely have won the man's allegiance and Barristan would not have thought that his duty was to protect Joffrey now.

 

In the case of the knights there was neither a coronation nor an anointment/proclamation of a king planned at the tower. Which means that the knights couldn't have protected 'the king' even if they wanted to or believed that Lyanna's son should be king because a king is no king until he is crowned. At least if you check the Targaryen kings of Westeros - all the kings were crowned and anointed. The succession doesn't matter - if you are crowned and anointed and you keep the throne you are king (Maegor I, Aegon II) even if you are clearly usurping it.

 

There is no reason to assume that a KG with a special assignment - like guarding some woman in a tower at the end of the world - is allowed or expected to pledge his sword to a new pretender to the throne as soon as he learns that the old king (and the guy giving the order) has died. Honor demands that you fulfill your obligations. Or do you think Qhorin Halfhand's command (and Jon's promise to follow his order) died with Halfhand?

 

We don't know whether Rhaegar has specified his life or death in his order to the knights, but one expects so. After all, why the hell would he leave KG at the tower if not to safeguard Lyanna and/or his child by her in case he should die in battle? Surely they weren't there to not guard her with their lives, and one assumes that Rhaegar had chosen them because he felt he could trust them (apparently a good choice) and because they were, presumably, great warriors who would rather die than abandon her (check again).

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Dayne and Whent were assigned as Rhaegar's bodyguards by King Aerys. They were ordered to follow Rhaegar's orders as if they came from Aerys himself. That explains why they were with Rhaegar instead of with Aerys at King's Landing.

Do we have a quote stating this?

No, it is a sensible assumption. We know that Whent and Dayne were with Rhaegar when Lyanna entered their company, and a year later they are still with Lyanna. In other works the Kingsguard are assigned to family members, so it certainly seems logical to assume that Whent and Dayne are assigned to Rhaegar, by King Aerys. I don't think that Rhaegar could pick and choose, though he does seem to order Jaime around a bit.

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I completely disagree with you on this one. 
there is only one way for Jon to be a non-bastard. 
This is that Rhaegar went back to KL for the war and somehow persuaded his dad to do a legitimization of his future baby.

What about if the Kingsguard witnessed a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna? Then certainly he is true born. No, there is no requirement for Rhaegar to seek Aerys' permission to marry. There is no requirement that Rhaegar be monogamous. Even Daenerys and fAegon have their own moments of considering polygamous marriages, so it is acceptable.

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[sip]

for the umpteenth time.

Agreed--we're going in circles at this point. Disagreeing on inferences.

 

So, agree to disagree?

:cheers:

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What about if the Kingsguard witnessed a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna? Then certainly he is true born. No, there is no requirement for Rhaegar to seek Aerys' permission to marry. There is no requirement that Rhaegar be monogamous. Even Daenerys and fAegon have their own moments of considering polygamous marriages, so it is acceptable.

 

I did not understand you. If you have some witnesses, then your marriage will be just legal automatically? 

If I am married, I went to Vegas or even another country and marry another person secretly with a witness and documents, then I am legally married again? No, this marriage would be announced as an invalid one. 

GRRM said when you have dragons, people may be forced to accept your decision. 

But Rhaegar did not have dragon and he was not even a King. 

Again, if he could make a valid marriage, why did he need to run away and hide for one year? why not just tell Rickard that I will marry your daughter as a second queen and you can try to break the troth with Robert. 

 

Something did not happen for hundreds of years, then suddenly you can do it secretly?

Polygamy was also totally fine just a few hundreds years ago in our world. But we can not do it now, not even you are president. 

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SFDanny,

 

well, honor and stuff is well and good, but there is a pragmatic side to all that. Surely Lyonel Baratheon would have been perfectly fine if Prince Duncan had set aside Jenny and married his daughter as was promised. Even if she had given Duncan a child. Even Black Walder is pragmatic enough there when he suggests that his aunts and cousins won't mind being married to a widower. You can make resolve those things in a way that does not necessarily involve the murder of children.

 

Robert having affairs and fathering children while he is still unmarried isn't exactly a sign that he wasn't in love with Lyanna. The man clearly enjoys himself and sex, and the Starks apparently didn't allow him yet to marry her (let alone sleep with her). That would be perfectly fine for a lord in Westeros.

 

I think the only contemporary textual evidence for Robert's Targaryen hatred back during the war is the dragonspawn thing, and I don't think that is enough for us (or Ned) to conclude that he would actually murder a child of Lyanna's - be it bastard or trueborn. If Ned thought that way I think Robert could not possibly have remained his friend thereafter. Yes, they had a quarrel over the Targaryen children and Aerys' murder, but my guess is rather that this was some symptom of the weird 'Stark honor' that is also evident in Cregan Stark - fighting for Rhaenyra and Aegon III and ending up avenging the death of Aegon II. Ned intended to kill Aerys and Rhaegar himself, but then demanded to avenge the murder of that very same king and his kin because of, well, reasons.

 

[It is unfortunate that we don't have the full picture on Cregan's motivations yet since that could also illuminate what Ned's thoughts were after the Sack.]

 

If Ned had reason to believe that Robert would actually the same to Lyanna's son the Lannisters had done to Aerys and Rhaegar's 'other family' the man could not possibly have remained his friend even if they had mourned together for Lyanna. And I see no reason how George could have made Robert such friend of Ned's in the man's own mind if there was also this unspoken and secret fear that 'this friend' may send a henchman to murder his own son/nephew. I agree that Jon's true identity could cause problems and dangers for him and the Stark family, but I don't really think they would have faced mortal danger from Robert - at least not from the Robert as he was around the time of the Sack and years thereafter.

 

The Robert we later meet is man worn down by Cersei and his own lifestyle. He still wants to be a nice guy, but he doesn't have the time or the strength to enforce his will on everyone - it is easier to simply turn a blind eye to unpleasant things. But the Targaryens remain - and it is quite obvious that while Robert blames Rhaegar for his miserable life (something that most likely also developed during the marriage with Cersei - after the Trident Robert would have been quite happy, one assumes) his true problem with the Targaryens is that they pose a very real and severe threat to his dynasty. And while he fails to realize or care about the intrigues at his court he is very aware of the danger of a Targaryen restoration. Viserys and Dany have to go because they become a real threat - but a child of Lyanna's in Ned's care would never have become such a threat. Especially not her bastard, but also not her trueborn child disguised as her bastard.

 

As to the Targaryens/Daynes:

 

There could have been an earlier marriage between these two houses. There are five daughters of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower that are unaccounted for. I'm pretty sure the Targaryen blood in House Penrose leading to the Ronnel-Elaena and Aelinor-Aerys match was due to a marriage between such a daughter and a Lord Penrose, and it may be that the Dondarrions and Dayne got their Targaryen match for a similar reason.

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I did not understand you. If you have some witnesses, then your marriage will be just legal automatically? 

If I am married, I went to Vegas or even another country and marry another person secretly with a witness and documents, then I am legally married again? No, this marriage would be announced as an invalid one. 

GRRM said when you have dragons, people may be forced to accept your decision. 

But Rhaegar did not have dragon and he was not even a King. 

Again, if he could make a valid marriage, why did he need to run away and hide for one year? why not just tell Rickard that I will marry your daughter as a second queen and you can try to break the troth with Robert. 

 

Something did not happen for hundreds of years, then suddenly you can do it secretly?

Polygamy was also totally fine just a few hundreds years ago in our world. But we can not do it now, not even you are president. 

 

In front of a weirwood tree, Rhaegar said his oath and pledged himself to Lyanna, just as Jon pledged himself to NW.

 

Our support for R+L= legitimate J are not just at a whim, but reasons written in Martin's subtle writings.

 

You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

 

**Rhaegar felt he was wrong to love and leave Lyanna.  So yes, there is enough reasons for me to conclude that Rhaegar indeed married Lyanna in front of the old gods.

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Well, just because Ned may have thought that the marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar may have been viable (suggested by the fact that he talks about Jon as a 'boy with bastard's name' rather than a bastard) doesn't mean that everyone else shares that opinion. If Gerold, Arthur, and Oswell were die-hard monogamists one could expect that they might not believe Rhaegar's second marriage is valid. That is a serious issue - is a polygamous marriage necessarily universally accepted simply because it happened and there are some people who witnessed it, or would it only be accepted if the king or the High Septon gave you special permission? And one could expect that even that might then be questioned by a radical faction opposing that king/High Septon just as the Faith Militant continued to oppose Maegor even after the new High Septon had made peace with him.

 

But my take on the marriage thing right now is that it may actually be that there was a well-known, sort of public marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna - which was not accepted by anyone (especially not Aerys II) and the main cause why Rhaegar and Lyanna had to go into hiding.

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I did not understand you. If you have some witnesses, then your marriage will be just legal automatically?

Sure, getting married is totally legal. It is when one finds that they are married previously that it becomes polygamous, and that is illegal, but being illegal does not nullify the marriages. Polygamy was never illegal in the Seven Kingdoms, it is just not common. Something being uncommon does not make it illegal.

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In front of a weirwood tree, Rhaegar said his oath and pledged himself to Lyanna, just as Jon pledged himself to NW.

 

Our support for R+L= legitimate J are not just at a whim, but reasons written in Martin's subtle writings.

 

You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch.

 

**Rhaegar felt he was wrong to love and leave Lyanna.  So yes, there is enough reasons for me to conclude that Rhaegar indeed married Lyanna in front of the old gods.

 

If there was a echo here. this means his dad Rhaegar knew he was wrong to love Lyanna and leave Elia (but he did it anyway due to his love in Lyanna). 

Rhaegar was torn away from his duties (honor, reputation, you name it) and love, apparently. Just like what Dany said: "the girl inside her wanted her lover to carry her off like what her brother did for the northern girl, but the queen inside her knew it was folly".

 

If you were thinking he felt he was wrong to leave Lyanna to go back KL to attend the war, then Rhaegar was even a bigger idiot. He could not hide forever. he had to somehow fight with Rebellion.  

And any of this could only prove Rhaegar loved Lyanna (which I agree with all my heart), but it could not prove he was married with her. 

In fact, this even put some more hints that Rhaegar could not marry with Lyanna, so he was torn by his forbidden love and his duties. 

By the way, Old god did not recognize double marriage either. 

If so, Robb would be an idiot not marrying Jenny and Roslin together as two wives. 

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If there was a echo here. this means his dad Rhaegar knew he was wrong to love Lyanna and leave Elia (but he did it anyway due to his love in Lyanna). 

Rhaegar was torn away from his duties (honor, reputation, you name it) and love, apparently. Just like what Dany said: "the girl inside her wanted her lover to carry her off like what her brother did for the northern girl, but the queen inside her knew it was folly".

 

If you were thinking he felt he was wrong to leave Lyanna to go back KL to attend the war, then Rhaegar was even a bigger idiot. He could not hide forever. he had to somehow fight with Rebellion.  

And any of this could only prove Rhaegar loved Lyanna (which I agree with all my heart), but it could not prove he was married with her. 

In fact, this even put some more hints that Rhaegar could not marry with Lyanna, so he was torn by his forbidden love and his duties. 

By the way, Old god did not recognize double marriage either. 

If so, Robb would be an idiot not marrying Jenny and Roslin together as two wives. 

 

I'm of the opinion that the old gods are against incest, not polygamy.

 

She punched him, “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”
“Craster weds his daughters,” Jon pointed. She punched him again.
“Craster’s more your kind than ours.”

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I'm of the opinion that the old gods are against incest, not polygamy.

 

She punched him, “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”
“Longspear’s not your brother.”
“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”
“Craster weds his daughters,” Jon pointed. She punched him again.
“Craster’s more your kind than ours.”

 

 

Then why Robb did not marry both Jenye and roslin to avoid his tragedy?

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Then why Robb did not marry both Jenye and roslin to avoid his tragedy?

 

Robb is not Rhaegar.  Robb follows the ways of the Starks who do not have polygamous history.  Rhaegar was a crown prince, who was versed with Targaryen history, especially the symbolic 3 heads of the dragon being Aegon and his sister-wives.

 

Rhaegar also knew that marriage for duty must be done, you don't disobey the king (although immediate Targaryen history disproof that with his grandfather).  He knew Aegon married Visenya for tradition and duty, likewise he also knew Aegon married Rhaenys for desire and love.

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Robb is not Rhaegar.  Robb follows the ways of the Starks who do not have polygamous history.  Rhaegar was a crown prince, who was versed with Targaryen history, especially the symbolic 3 heads of the dragon being Aegon and his sister-wives.

 

Rhaegar also knew that marriage for duty must be done, you don't disobey the king.  He knew Aegon married Visenya for tradition and duty, likewise he also knew Aegon married Rhaenys for desire and love.

 

So what? If this is practical, why not try to seek a marriage for Lyanna in stead of running off and hiding?

If he could not make a public marriage accepted, how come a secret marriage would be accepted?

because he married before a heart tree? 

 

Aegon's situation happened three hundred years ago and he was a conqueror with dragons.

Check how dragon rider Maegor was sent to exile due to his second marriage and how Daemon Blackfyre received a big "no" to ask hand for his sister while he was married already. 

I can not imagine when people heard about Jon's parentage, they would say: "oh, I heard they got married in front of heart tree! So even he had a wife and children, then we should recognize him as a true born son who can claim IT!"

 

Three hundred years ago, king was allowed to marry as many as women if they wanted. 

Now things changed. 

 

really, Rhaegar could do whatever he wanted to do, it really depends if people wanted to accept or not. 

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There is absolutely nothing to suggest that polygamy is illegal in Westeros.

 

 

ETA. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/ssm/category/heraldry/Heraldry/P600

 

[Bolding mine]

 

First off all I want to thank you for the one of the best fantasy novels I ever read. Then I would like to ask one question: In the SOS Jora Mormont told to Dany that Aegon The Dragon had two wives and she could take two husbands. The question is if there were any other precedents of polygamy among Targaryens besides Aegon the First.

 

Yes, there were.

Maegor the Cruel had eight or nine wives, I seem to recall, though not all of them were simultaneous. He beheaded a few of them who failed to give him heirs, a test that all of them ultimately failed.

There might have been a few later instances as well. I'd need to look that up... (or make that up, as the case might be).

 

The fact that Martin says there might be instances of polygamy post Maegor and, if not, he still considers himself as having the option of making one up shows that polygamy is not established as being illegal.

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snip

Crystal clear, and logical :-) 

 

He did not have power to marry secretly with Lyanna or name Jon as his legitimate son. He had to ask a permission from king and faith and would likely receive a big "no". Otherwise why do you think he needs to run away and hide in the first place?

You mean, like Rhaenyra didn't have the power to marry Daemon, or Aegon's kids to marry each other?

 

Had Aerys got wind of it, he almost certainly would have forbidden it (see Rhaenyra's first attempt). Thus, better to ask forgiveness than permission, and even better to ask once the bride gets pregnant. For some reason, running away and hiding for some time is a pattern which even RL couples use when they want to get married againsttheir parents' will.

 

Even Accepting R+L= J it still seems weird that the KG would feel they need to protect Jon and lyanna from ned, Unless they thought that the rebels were deliberately on a targ genocide

Not so much the Rebels but the Lannisters, and the new king was condoning it. That new king to whom Ned was sworn and bound to reveal the existence of Lyanna's baby.

 

Areys disinherited Aegon and name viserys his heir only after Rhaegar's death. 

He perhaps named Viserys and there is no mention of Aegon being completely disinherited. 

 

Rhaegar was never a true king, not even for one single minute. He did not have power to marry secretly with Lyanna or even name Jon as his legitimate son. He had to ask a permission from king and faith and would likely receive a big "no". Otherwise why do you think he needs to run away and hide in the first place?

Saying the same thing twice doesn't make it any truer.

 

 

If a secret marriage could work this way, why not King Robb Stark announce that he would marry two wifes: jenny and Roslin? 

Because his surname was not Targaryen. Only the Targs answered to neither gods nor men and were a law unto themselves.

 

 

GRRM said when you have dragons, people may be forced to accept your decision. 

He said that people are less likely to object. He never said that you stand zero chance of getting what you want without dragons.

 

 

Something did not happen for hundreds of years, then suddenly you can do it secretly?

Polygamy was also totally fine just a few hundreds years ago in our world. But we can not do it now, not even you are president. 

Funny, mormons did just that - reinstated a custom centuries dead.

 

If he could not make a public marriage accepted, how come a secret marriage would be accepted?

He couldn't pull a public marriage because it would have been forbidden. There is no way to dissolve a vow and a marriage once it is consummated. Thus, Tyrion is still married to Tysha if the poor girl lives, and his marriage to Sansa can be nullified.

 

BTW, purple-eyes,didn't you use to go under a different nick here? I seem to recall this very argumentation from before.

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So what? If this is practical, why not try to seek a marriage for Lyanna in stead of running off and hiding?

If he could not make a public marriage accepted, how come a secret marriage would be accepted?

because he married before a heart tree? 

 

Aegon's situation happened three hundred years ago and he was a conqueror with dragons.

Check how dragon rider Maegor was sent to exile due to his second marriage and how Daemon Blackfyre received a big "no" to ask hand for his sister while he was married already. 

I can not imagine when people heard about Jon's parentage, they would say: "oh, I heard they got married in front of heart tree! So even he had a wife and children, then we should recognize him as a true born son who can claim IT!"

 

Three hundred years ago, king was allowed to marry as many as women if they wanted. 

Now things changed. 

 

really, Rhaegar could do whatever he wanted to do, it really depends if people wanted to accept or not. 

 

You raised good points, but Martin is not done with the story.  The events at Harrenhal and the unraveling of Jon's true parentage will indeed give us more accurate picture.

 

And I'm not gonna let Lyanna pass by without sharing some responsibility...

 

Alys Karstark slipped her arm through Jon’s. “How much longer, Lord Snow? If I’m to be buried beneath this snow, I’d like to die a woman wed.”
“Soon, my lady,” Jon assured her. “Soon.”
...
Jon turned to Alys Karstark. “My lady. Are you ready?”
“Yes. Oh, yes.”
“You’re not scared?”
The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.
Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.
 
**Knowing Martin's subtle writing a story within a story, this scene makes sense if you believe R+L=J and that RL were married.
 
**I'm of the opinion that Lyanna was part of the pressure and blame for Rhaegar to do what he did, as she was trying to avoid her betrothal.  It was reckless abandonment of duty from both of them, but maybe love did bloom in the midst of it.

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You raised good points, but Martin is not done with the story.  The events at Harrenhal and the unraveling of Jon's true parentage will indeed give us more accurate picture.

 

And I'm not gonna let Lyanna pass by without sharing some responsibility...

 

Alys Karstark slipped her arm through Jon’s. “How much longer, Lord Snow? If I’m to be buried beneath this snow, I’d like to die a woman wed.”
“Soon, my lady,” Jon assured her. “Soon.”
...
Jon turned to Alys Karstark. “My lady. Are you ready?”
“Yes. Oh, yes.”
“You’re not scared?”
The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.
Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.
 
**Knowing Martin's subtle writing a story within a story, this scene makes sense if you believe R+L=J and that RL were married.
 
**I'm of the opinion that Lyanna was part of the pressure and blame for Rhaegar to do what he did, as she was trying to avoid her betrothal.  It was reckless abandonment of duty from both of them, but maybe love did bloom in the midst of it.

 

 

The situation is that, if you have already this theory in your mind, then you are trying to find proofs and hints along the lines for it. 

People see what they want to see or what they believe. 

Honestly I can not see anything here about Lyanna was lawfully married with Rhaegar.

But you can feel that for sure. 

 

I feel like this is like I am trying to find the hints of Arthur + Elia by the Dornishman's wife song. 

Which may hint the fight that Arthur killed smiling kinight of Kingswood brother due to they stole a kiss from Elia using his famous blade. 

However, I know this is not true. And no, this song did not hint Elia. 

 

But of course GRRM can write whatever he wants to. 

if he writes that they are married, then fine. 

Somebody can take 23 wives, why can not Rhaegar take two?

But this does not fit the feeling of the whole book. 

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**I'm of the opinion that Lyanna was part of the pressure and blame for Rhaegar to do what he did, as she was trying to avoid her betrothal.  It was reckless abandonment of duty from both of them, but maybe love did bloom in the midst of it.

 

 

If you mean she herself insisted and gave pressure to Rhaegar that Rhaegar needed to abandon his wife and two children and run off with her and get married to her, just because she wanted to get rid of her troth with Robert, I think I can believe that she committed suicide after the child birth due to her guilty for her brother and father.  

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