R+L=J v. 152

[Avalatis]

Under US laws, the second marriage would be dissolved and treated as not a marriage -- but the laws in Westeros appear to be different. And the fact that Rhaegar was potentially subject to sanction by Aerys for a polygamous marriage may explain in part why he remained in hiding as long as he did.

 

The answer to this lies within medieval Europe. Marriage was a religious institution, but it had an direct impact on civil society. Early on in Europe the Catholic church allowed "secret" weddings. I think there were areas of Scottland for instance where they didn't even need a priest that the two could declare they were married and consummate it. This became a real problem for governments of the time as multiple marriages were really hard to track inheritance and families. Secret weddings often led to polygamy when the couple got sick of each other. It was up to the Catholic church to declare secret weddings were no longer acceptable, not the governments. Weddings were then required to be declared pubicly for several weeks before the ceremony and consummation could take place. This allowed anyone opposing this wedding (such as a previous spouse) to bring it up.

 

Westeros has to deal with the old gods and the faith of the 7 (and in that case the Valaryian religion). The Monarch at least at this time has no say over marriage as it was a religious institution.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I find the lack of mention in the series proper rather baffling.

Where could it have been mentioned then? By the time he was crowned, Viserys was believed to be the last Targaryen male alive anyway. Crowning him was the only option the Targaryens still had, besides surrendering.. 

 

 

After Rhaegar’s death Aerys kills Aegon and makes Viserys his new heir is what Yandel is trying to present. Yandel does not mention that Tywin presented the bodies of Elia, Aegon, and Rhaenys to Robert as coronation gifts. We need to ask ourselves why. Yandel wants us to believe that the Mad King was truly mad, and was directly responsible for the destruction of his house.

The quote is quite clear that Aerys did NOT name Viserys his heir, just that Viserys became his new heir, but neglects to mention how it came to pass.

It is possible that someone accompanied Hightower, it is equally possible that no one accompanied Hightower. The obvious answer is that Rhaegar’s sworn shields escorted him back to King’s Landing, there is no one else available, except Hightower, but Hightower remains, as we see. It is logical that Hightower was forced to remain because Lyanna was:

• A Targaryen princess
• Had no other means of protection

 

That is not what Yandel is trying to present.

 

The entire passage in question:

BIRDS FLEW AND couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

 

We find ourselves in this paragraph between the Trident and the Sack (the next paragraph details how the defenses of KL fell to Jaime and how Tywin arrived at the gates, and Tywin let him into the city). Viserys is now the new heir.. Not the logical heir, though, for Aegon should usually be favored. And we've seen in history time and time again that Targaryen monarchs officialy recognized an heir - Maekar didn't, causing the Great Council of 233. For Viserys, and not Aegon, is called Aerys' new heir here, After the Trident, not after the Sack. That's important. Aegon is still alive. 

 

Yes, Yandel offers all kinds of scenario's for the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys, besides the one involving Tywin. Yet from reading the five main books, there is not a single character we've met who doubts that Tywin was involved. 

 

 

Would you send a recognizable man (Hightower) out alone to cross an area where there is a war goign on (Stormlands) all on his own, when the mission you've sent him on (finding Rhaegar) is such an important one?

 

I'm not saying the scenario you suggest is impossible. It very much is. It just isn't a stated fact, and shouldn't be treated as such, I think.

 

 

 

And crowned.

That came later though.

[Selena]

 

Make sense. Good one. 

But one thing I am wondering was that why Aerys did not ask White Bull to take Lyanna back as a hostage. This would be a super good strategy to threaten the rebellion and would had a big influence on Ned and Robert. 

How come he forgot to do this if he can think about holding Elia as hostage for Dorne?

So it looks like he did not care Lyanna at all. Maybe he would be just fine with Arthur and Osewell. 

Anyway they just followed the order of Rhaegar to abduct Lyanna or run off to Dorne. 

 

I dont think Aerys knew about Lyanna, so therefore he wouldnt order Hightower to bring her back. Hightowe'rs task was to find Rhaegar and get him to KL so he could take control of the Army. He completed his task, but something we dont know about yet kept him at the ToJ when Rhaegar headed back to KL.

[purple-eyes]

Great question. In part, I think the answer is that GRRM needed Aerys to fail to give this order. If Aerys gave that order, then the entire series falls apart. I think that Aerys assumed that Hightower would come back with Rhaegar and would deal with Lyanna later. If Aerys insisted on Lyanna coming as well, Rhaegar might have refused to come (Aerys thought he needed Rhaegar -- and was probably correct as everything fell apart once Rhaegar died) and might have fought Hightower. 

 

But apparently Rhaegar outsmarted Aerys be insisting that Hightower stay at ToJ. I suspect Rhaegar stated that he would  not return to KL unless Hightower promised to stay with Lyanna at ToJ. Given that Aerys never explicitly ordered Hightower back -- just ordered him to find Rhaegar and convince Rhaegar to return -- Hightower's only way to fulfill his duty to Aerys was to stay at ToJ. 

 

I agree this is just a small error of GRRM or like you said, something he had to do to make sure the whole story can start. 

If they were actual people, no matter how stupid Areys was, he should have known how important this is and sent a much bigger group to take Lyanna back no matter what Rhaegar thought about. If Rhaegar rejected or tried to fight, then he was a traitor. Aerys would order his people to capture or disinherit him. Anyway Rhaegar was not the only heir he had. And also Rhaegar did not have an army in TOJ. 

Anyway this was a unnatural part. Aerys should have ordered Lyanna to be back as a hostage. 

[MtnLion]

Great question. In part, I think the answer is that GRRM needed Aerys to fail to give this order. If Aerys gave that order, then the entire series falls apart. I think that Aerys assumed that Hightower would come back with Rhaegar and would deal with Lyanna later. If Aerys insisted on Lyanna coming as well, Rhaegar might have refused to come (Aerys thought he needed Rhaegar -- and was probably correct as everything fell apart once Rhaegar died) and might have fought Hightower. 

 

But apparently Rhaegar outsmarted Aerys be insisting that Hightower stay at ToJ. I suspect Rhaegar stated that he would  not return to KL unless Hightower promised to stay with Lyanna at ToJ. Given that Aerys never explicitly ordered Hightower back -- just ordered him to find Rhaegar and convince Rhaegar to return -- Hightower's only way to fulfill his duty to Aerys was to stay at ToJ. 

Agree with Hightower being trapped by Rhaegar, as a smart maneuver to keep him from spilling the beans to Aerys.  I take the entire series of events here as an indicator that Aerys did not know where Rhaegar was, and had no clue that Lyanna was actually involved. 

[purple-eyes]

 

I dont think Aerys knew about Lyanna, so therefore he wouldnt order Hightower to bring her back. Hightowe'rs task was to find Rhaegar and get him to KL so he could take control of the Army. He completed his task, but something we dont know about yet kept him at the ToJ when Rhaegar headed back to KL.

 

APP quote said that Aerys heard rumor that Rhaegar was in the south with Lyanna. Then Aryes asked White Bull recall him back to do his duties. 

And after all the drama with Brandon and Richard Stark and all the war stuff, it is impossible to assume Aerys did not know about Lyanna, or at least not feel suspicious that Rhaegar may be with Lyanna. 

[Selena]

 

APP quote said that Aerys heard rumor that Rhaegar was in the south with Lyanna. Then Aryes asked White Bull recall him back to do his duties. 

And after all the drama with Brandon and Richard Stark and all the war stuff, it is impossible to assume Aerys did not know about Lyanna, or at least not feel suspicious that Rhaegar may be with Lyanna. 

ah.. I have actually never dl'd the APP so didnt know that..does make a difference. 

[purple-eyes]

Agree with Hightower being trapped by Rhaegar, as a smart maneuver to keep him from spilling the beans to Aerys.  I take the entire series of events here as an indicator that Aerys did not know where Rhaegar was, and had no clue that Lyanna was actually involved. 

 

I already gave the answer in my above post. 

I think this is a mistake of Areys. He did not ask White Bull to take back Lyanna. then White Bull just followed the order of Rhaegar to stay. 

This was something necessary for the plot and following story. otherwise we can not have a hidden Jon and all the story. 

But in the reality, Aerys and his council members would not miss this opportunity. 

Seriously? Robert and Ned both cared a lot for Lyanna and this war was triggered due to the abduction. It would be so useful to hold Lyanna as a hostage and threaten them to surrender. even they do not, Aerys had nothing to lose. 

[MtnLion]

 

I already gave the answer in my above post. 

I think this is a mistake of Areys. He did not ask White Bull to take back Lyanna. then White Bull just followed the order of Rhaegar to stay. 

This was something necessary for the plot and following story. otherwise we can not have a hidden Jon and all the story. 

But in the reality, Aerys and his council members would not miss this opportunity. 

Seriously? Robert and Ned both cared a lot for Lyanna and this war was triggered due to the abduction. It would be so useful to hold Lyanna as a hostage and threaten them to surrender. even they do not, Aerys had nothing to lose. 

What makes you think that Aerys knew that Rhaegar was with Lyanna?  It looks to me as if he did not know where Rhaegar was, or what he was doing, let alone concerned about Lyanna's whereabouts.  I don't recall Varys or Pycelle mentioning anything at all about the tower of joy or its location.  What do they know specifically about Lyanna? 

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

Gerold Hightower was the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard for over twenty years. He served on the Small Councils of two kings, and was very much political player. To pledge yourself to a king to the extent that you kill (his maternal uncle) and die for him is a rather serious political commitment. If you are right, and Lyanna's son was there king, then King Viserys III Targaryen was certainly not their friend, and possible their enemy should he not recognize the claim of their king and/or pose a threat to them. If Rhaella came to lay claim to her grandson and they feared that she might favor Viserys III instead of Lyanna's son they would have had as much reason to kill her as they had to kill Eddard Stark. There is no real difference there.

 

Viserys' coronation doesn't figure into all that. Aerys' will does. He wanted Viserys to succeed him. As servants and loyal subject of Aerys II they would have to double-check which heir their late liege wanted. And the very idea that Hightower and the others had no clue who Aerys might favor in case of Rhaegar's early death is ridiculous. Pycelle knew about the feelings between Aerys and Rhaegar shortly before Harrenhal. Gerold sat beside him at the council table and was privy to the secrets of the king. He would have known even more about Aerys' heart and mind than Pycelle.

 

But then, this whole idea that they ever intended to reunite with the other Targaryens or go to Dragonstone is without any textual basis. Perhaps they had no idea yet what they were going to do? Or they intended to go to Dorne or to directly into exile in Essos?

 

Hightower stuff at the tower:

 

The question as to why Hightower (or the other knights) felt they had to obey Rhaegar is not yet clear. One theory is that Arthur and Oswell were Rhaegar's friend and stuck with him for that reason, even if Aerys had given them a different command. One could even extend that to Hightower if the man had a change of heart as to who was the better king/leader. Another take would be that Arthur/Oswell accepted Rhaegar's orders for whatever reason, but Hightower had to be forced to stay, perhaps possible if he showed up more or less alone and Rhaegar (with the help of Arthur/Oswell) refused to accompany Hightower back to KL unless the latter swore to stay at the tower with Arthur and Oswell in his place. A third theory is that Hightower didn't come to the tower to demand that Rhaegar accompany him but also informed him that Aerys II had named Rhaegar Lord Protector of the Realm which would give him sufficient authority to order the KG about as if he was the king. That would be sort of supported by the fact that Rhaegar later talks rather dismissive of Aerys's authority when he later says that he does not dare take Jaime from Aerys - suggesting that he felt he could have done that against his father's explicit wishes.

 

The question as to why Lyanna did not accompany Rhaegar to KL is connected to that. We simply cannot answer that because we do not know anything about Rhaegar and Aerys' relationship at that point. Did they reconcile as the very fact that Aerys allowed Rhaegar to command his armies suggests? Or was Rhaegar forced into his father's service with a threat to Lyanna's (if Hightower had come with sufficient men to overwhelm Rhaegar's guys at the tower) and/or to Elia and her children? How felt Aerys about the 'Lyanna affair' in general at this point? Was Lyanna even capable of traveling with Rhaegar to KL? And so on. 

 

The idea that Lyanna was hiding from Aerys II with three knights of Aerys II's Kingsguard protecting her makes little to no sense at all. If Aerys wanted to take Lyanna to KL and use her as a hostage one expects he could have given Hightower such orders and/or would have sent sufficient men with him to overcome any resistance from Rhaegar's side. The fact that this did not happen makes it very likely that there were neither such orders nor such a plan. The time line does also not allow Hightower much time to search for Rhaegar. He was dispatched after the Battle of the Bells which was the last big battle before the Trident, and we know that Rhaegar had sufficient time to raise new levies and train them after his return.

[MtnLion]

Where could it have been mentioned then? By the time he was crowned, Viserys was believed to be the last Targaryen male alive anyway. Crowning him was the only option the Targaryens still had, besides surrendering.. 
 
That is not what Yandel is trying to present.
 
The entire passage in question:

BIRDS FLEW AND couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King’s Landing with Rhaegar’s children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart—a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

 
We find ourselves in this paragraph between the Trident and the Sack (the next paragraph details how the defenses of KL fell to Jaime and how Tywin arrived at the gates, and Tywin let him into the city). Viserys is now the new heir.. Not the logical heir, though, for Aegon should usually be favored. And we've seen in history time and time again that Targaryen monarchs officialy recognized an heir - Maekar didn't, causing the Great Council of 233. For Viserys, and not Aegon, is called Aerys' new heir here, After the Trident, not after the Sack. That's important. Aegon is still alive. 
 
Yes, Yandel offers all kinds of scenario's for the deaths of Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys, besides the one involving Tywin. Yet from reading the five main books, there is not a single character we've met who doubts that Tywin was involved.

And not a single character that we have met has noted that Aegon was disinherited, or otherwise removed from the succession. (Thanks for relenting on the named part. That is like the conflation that makes a Stark responsible for Ashara's dishonor, when it says nothing of the sort.)

Would you send a recognizable man (Hightower) out alone to cross an area where there is a war goign on (Stormlands) all on his own, when the mission you've sent him on (finding Rhaegar) is such an important one?

I don't know why not, since Barristan easily eluded Cersei's assassins.

[purple-eyes]

What makes you think that Aerys knew that Rhaegar was with Lyanna?  It looks to me as if he did not know where Rhaegar was, or what he was doing, let alone concerned about Lyanna's whereabouts.  I don't recall Varys or Pycelle mentioning anything at all about the tower of joy or its location.  What do they know specifically about Lyanna? 

 

I answered this in the above post. 

 

APP quote said that Aerys heard rumor that Rhaegar was in the south with Lyanna in a place called TOJ. Then Aryes asked White Bull to go there and recall him back to do his duties. 

And after all the drama with Brandon Stark and Richard Stark and all the war stuff, I think it is impossible to assume Aerys did not know about Lyanna at all. Or assume he did not even doubt that Rhaegar was with Lyanna. 

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

No. I do not want arthur gay! He had to be straight! I like him.

So you can't like a character who is gay?

As a straight guy who had a fiance who was in theater and arts I've had lots of gay friends and acquaintances, one of whom told me if I ever decided to switch teams I would have no problem getting a date. Considered it a compliment.

[J. Stargaryen]

I recall reading something about that but can't recall the details. I think it was posted by J. Stargaryen. Maybe he can help us out with a link or re-post.

 

Sorry, was away for the weekend, and it seems like you found some of the answers. Fire Eater was the first person I saw mention the stone/Stark connection. There's Rickon in Skagos, which means "stone" in the old tongue. Bran hiding in a cave. We all know what those are made of, right? Arya in Braavos, the city made of stone. Also, and arguably more importantly, hiding Needle in the stone steps. Sansa is calling herself Alayne Stone. I don't think there's anything for Robb, but he's dead, and was never really hiding anyway. Even Cat is now Lady Stoneheart.

 

You mentioned how I think the crypts reinforce the idea, and I do. Basically, the crypts are oft mentioned, and a fairly significant part of the Stark identity. Further, the Starks eventually turn into stone -- statues -- when they die. At least the lords, and select others like Ned's siblings. A pretty obvious link between hiding/hidden Starks, stone and the crypts would be Bael the Bard, his Stark girl and their child. They hid among the stone statues in the crypts. That kind of puts a bow on it for me, especially when you consider how that tale is related to RLJ.

 

And, btw, I believe the stone dragon/waking a dragon from stone stuff itself is connected to RLJ. I think I mentioned this before, but if you didn't know anything about RLJ, or were even aware that Jon's parentage was mysterious, yet knew about the stone/hidden Stark connections, waking a dragon from stone/stone dragon would probably cause you to wonder whether there was a Targaryen, or at least some Targaryen blood, hidden among the Starks. I mean... right?

 

I could see there being more to the stone/Stark idea than is currently being discussed. For example, going back to the crypts, there's an association between stone and death. And that doesn't stop there, really. I think stones are often symbolic of things that are not alive.

 

snip

 

Yes. Apple Martini used to argue this quite a bit. Basically, what's the point of keeping Jon's parentage a secret if not for RLJ?

 

As to Robert's claim:

 

George has said in an SSM that Robert had decided to claim the throne for himself some time before the Trident. He was in the game for the big price, and already pretending to the Iron Throne while Rhaegar and Aerys were still alive.

 

Elio told me it was after the Trident. Rhaenys_Targaryen and I discussed this a while back. I'll check to see if I can find you the link. If not, it maybe she can.

[purple-eyes]

So you can't like a character who is gay?

As a straight guy who had a fiance who was in theater and arts I've had lots of gay friends and acquaintances, one of whom told me if I ever decided to switch teams I would have no problem getting a date. Considered it a compliment.

 

No, not like that. Please do not misunderstand me. 

I am a straight female so of course I wish he would be a straight guy because I like him. 

Although I have not met a real gay in my close life yet (I mean I do not know if there are secret gay people in my circle), I definitely do not dislike them. I also like a lot of gay characters in the books or something like that. 

I always wish to meet one to be my friend. 

But anyway, the point is, you proved that a straight guy would be perfectly ok with a gay as your buddy. 

I just wonder if a straight guy would feel uncomfortable to know you best friend is a gay and has interest in yourself.

[Sly Wren]

But then, this whole idea that they ever intended to reunite with the other Targaryens or go to Dragonstone is without any textual basis. Perhaps they had no idea yet what they were going to do? Or they intended to go to Dorne or to directly into exile in Essos?

Good point. If they are staying at the tower with the baby, their options are limited. And then Ned shows up.

 

Am wondering if what we're seeing in the scene is paralleled in Courtnay Penrose. Renly's dead. No way to win. But he'd sworn his oath. And would not yield. Fight rather than yield. So--shadow baby.

 

Obviously no shadow baby at the tower (unless someone wants to go crackpot re: the wraiths). But as discussed above re: the KG's state of mind. They've failed Aerys. They're furious. And now they are here with Rhaegar's baby. In the end, even if they do see Jon as king, how on earth are they going to crown him? How are they going to convince people he's Rhaegar's baby, a baby no one else in the kingdoms has heard about, let alone convince people of Jon's legitimacy (assuming he is so)? Convince people to support Jon over Viserys, the named heir? 

 

If they join Viserys, how are they going to crown him? Raise support for him? Robert has won. And look how well Darry's "I'll raise up Viserys plan" went. Would it really have gone better with the KG's help?

 

So, wondering if what we are seeing doesn't depend on protect vs. obey. It's a precursor to Penrose. They have failed their king and have no way to fix it. If Jon's in the tower, they are stuck in the Red Mountains of Dorne (Elia's homeland) with the child Rhaegar had on the side--really don't think the Dornish would see it any other way.

 

No options for a win. But "our knees do not bend easily." And "the KG do not flee." They know they can't win. They don't care. They aren't fighting to win. Only fighting for honor. Like Courtnay Penrose.

 

So, protect vs. obey may not be the point of the scene. Just honor to the death. And 5 of Ned's friends died fighting 3 men who knew they could not win. That would certainly haunt my dreams.

[Selena]

**sigh** I think GRRM needs to give us a new bone to chew on.

 

preferably one that explains why the KG thought they had to fight Ned, why they thought he was a threat 

but I guess that would spoil the whole mystery and what fun would that be lol

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

 

Any scenarios you can come up with that explain why or this person didn't know about that is conjecture. You have to twist stuff around to come up with reasons why things did remain secret - the proclamation of the new heir - whose whole purpose was to not remain secret. Note that Yandel doesn't mention a decree or a proclamation, he mentions that Viserys was Aerys' new heir - which he could only have been if he was publicly proclaimed as such. If Viserys had been Aerys' 'secret heir' Yandel would have told us that, or he would completely have dropped this whole thing.

 

 

You seem to be putting a lot of faith in Yandel when we know he's an unreliable narrator. 

Pure speculation but: If the person killed at the trident wearing the ruby studded armor was glamored to look like Rhaegar, and when the rubies were knocked off was "exposed" then it's possible the pro-Baratheon Yandel made Viserys being named heir sound more official. Why? A child is less risk to the new Baratheon era and they basically know where he is, while the "real" Rhaegar could be literally anywhere (or anyone).

 

Note: I do not believe any of that, just pointing out that it's another possible interpretation.

[MtnLion]

APP quote said that Aerys heard rumor that Rhaegar was in the south with Lyanna.

I did not see your quote of the App, and I could not find it. Perhaps you would share it again?

[purple-eyes]

 

preferably one that explains why the KG thought they had to fight Ned, why they thought he was a threat 

 

 

This one is easy. they know Ned would not hurt Lyanna for sure, but they feel that Ned may hurt or capture the Targ baby since he is part of the rebellion against Targ. KG could not run the risk to trust him. KG were there more for the baby, not just for Lyanna.