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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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Yeah, a black brother was at Harrenhal, we've known that for years. And Ben took the plea of the black brother to heart, the app tells us that.

My point is, that there most likely is a reason that Ben joined so very young. He was 14 or 15, most likely, and it sounds as if he finds Jon, at that same age, still too young.

In addition, it is very odd timing. His father and brother and sister have just died. House Stark has been reduced to Ben himself, not even a man grown, Ned, and an infant. An odd time, I think, to make your family even smaller by joining the NW. If Ned had had a few more sons, or if Robb had been a few years older by then, it would be more understandable.

Which made me wonder whether it wasn't connected to the war, in whatever small way.

I do believe you have some very good and strong points there. But on the other hand if Benjen really was to know about Jon's parentage why didn't he try to convince him to stay In Winterfell? Why letting him take the black? Because it's safe? Or what other reason might there be?

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If Ben miraculously reappears after all these books I imagine he will have some story similar to what you are suggesting. In reality though I don't think we will see him again. There isn't a good reason for the first ranger to go off the radar for so long especially after the NW brothers were killed and turned into undead. Unless he was captured by the others or some group and is finally released...

 

 

Do you mean what role Rhaegar thought his son with Lyanna would fill or what role Jon will actually fill? For the former, I think it's hard to say. We don't know what the prophecy says (except that it must have something to do with the Long Night and bringing the Dawn) or more importantly how Rhaegar would have interpreted it, except that he understood that a savior born of his family would be responsible for the salvation of Westeros. Whatever the hell that entails. Rhaegar could have thought it meant his son would be some sort of magical force, but I don't think Rhaegar thought Jon would do it all by himself. He does recognize that the dragon has three heads and somehow those three heads work together.

 

The role Jon will actually take? A leader to be sure. A dragon rider, in my head. And then he does "the thing." I don't know what the "thing" is but I think it's his blood (ice and fire) that somehow restores balance to a very topsy turvy unbalanced world.

 

I was more interested in the speculation of the readers. If Jon is really the Song of Ice and Fire he is the namesake of the series, I'm just wondering what people think that role might be. I think I've read significant suggestion that such a person is 'water' and is the balancing force to the world. But how does that even work? Will he invoke a power such as light bringer to win this war or to restore balance to the force:P? What would be a satisfying execution of Jon Targaryen the Prince who was promised who's song is that of ice and fire in the final act of this story?

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UL,

 

(from the previous thread on Rhaegar's intentions etc.)

 

whatever is intentions were doesn't matter there all that much. Whatever he wanted to accomplish got himself killed in the end, but even if we imagine that he won the war and became king, this doesn't mean he would have had any more success. We see how rotten the Realm became under King Robert, pretty much the same may have happened under King Rhaegar, especially if various factions had been vying for power and influence at court. Rhaegar believing that he was some prophesied hero guy didn't help him defeat Robert in battle, and neither did it prevent him from causing a crisis in the first place. Why should we believe Aegon or Lyanna's son would act differently than any other spoiled royal prince if they had been raised at court?

 

The irony there is that Jon had to be Ned's bastard to end up at the Wall, and Dany had to end up as Drogo's wife in the Dothraki Sea to become what she is now - Rhaegar preparing any of them for stuff wouldn't have worked.

 

As to the prophecy:

 

We don't really know whether the promised prince is supposed to be the savior of humanity. All we know is that the Targaryens looked for some special guy in their bloodline, and Rhaegar believed that this guy may have to be a warrior, that's it. It is not impossible that they simply thought this would be a great Targaryen prince bringing the dragons back and defeating some enemies of House Targaryen. The idea that they actually thought or believed that humanity in itself was in danger makes little sense considering that no Targaryen - not even Aemon - seemed to care all that much about such a threat or tried to figure out what it might be. Nothing suggests that Aemon - or even pre-greenseer Bloodraven - had any clues about what was going on beyond the Wall. If that was the case one assumes that Aemon (and Bloodraven before him) had made serious (and successful) efforts to convince Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II to support the Night's Watch or investigate whatever might be going on in the Land of Always Winter.

 

As to Benjen:

 

Trying to dissuade Jon from joining the NW might be a hint that he knows or suspects more about his heritage. The fact that urges him to father some bastards of his own and not make a decision too hasty could be a hint that he made that mistake and came to regret it. If Benjen bought the honor stuff at Harrenhal there is little reason to assume that the whole secret to him joining the NW is the fact that he wanted to as soon as he had come of age - which would have been shortly after Ned returned from the war, I assume.

 

I expect to see his face again in the series either as a wight or alive simply because George already had lots and lots of opportunities to confirm his death and chose to postpone that. He could have been a wight at the Fist, or one of Mance's guys could have killed him.

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I was more interested in the speculation of the readers. If Jon is really the Song of Ice and Fire he is the namesake of the series, I'm just wondering what people think that role might be. I think I've read significant suggestion that such a person is 'water' and is the balancing force to the world. But how does that even work? Will he invoke a power such as light bringer to win this war or to restore balance to the force:P? What would be a satisfying execution of Jon Targaryen the Prince who was promised who's song is that of ice and fire in the final act of this story?

 

Honestly? I have no idea. I wish I could articulate it, but I really don't know. Mostly because Westeros, as realistic as it can be, is still a land with magic and operates outside of how my real world operates so I find it hard to come up with any sort of magical explanation for "the thing" that Jon will do as TPTPW. I've seen some speculation, mostly from Mithras, that he'll skinchange a dragon and crash into the Heart of Winter thereby healing the breach, I suppose. I don't quite know if I buy that because one would think that crashing into a chasm (or curtain) would rend it further asunder but that's one idea I've seen.

 

It's very hard for me to imagine that it will be Jon in a single hand to hand combat situation vs the Night's King or something (though the show seems to point in that direction??????)

 

 

 

I expect to see his face again in the series either as a wight or alive simply because George already had lots and lots of opportunities to confirm his death and chose to postpone that. He could have been a wight at the Fist, or one of Mance's guys could have killed him.

 

I expect to see him in some fashion. It could even be through the weirwood eyes of Mr. Bran Stark, but I think Ben has a story to tell.

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UL,

 

(from the previous thread on Rhaegar's intentions etc.)

 

whatever is intentions were doesn't matter there all that much. Whatever he wanted to accomplish got himself killed in the end, but even if we imagine that he won the war and became king, this doesn't mean he would have had any more success. We see how rotten the Realm became under King Robert, pretty much the same may have happened under King Rhaegar, especially if various factions had been vying for power and influence at court. Rhaegar believing that he was some prophesied hero guy didn't help him defeat Robert in battle, and neither did it prevent him from causing a crisis in the first place. Why should we believe Aegon or Lyanna's son would act differently than any other spoiled royal prince if they had been raised at court?

 

The irony there is that Jon had to be Ned's bastard to end up at the Wall, and Dany had to end up as Drogo's wife in the Dothraki Sea to become what she is now - Rhaegar preparing any of them for stuff wouldn't have worked.

 

As to the prophecy:

 

We don't really know whether the promised prince is supposed to be the savior of humanity. All we know is that the Targaryens looked for some special guy in their bloodline, and Rhaegar believed that this guy may have to be a warrior, that's it. It is not impossible that they simply thought this would be a great Targaryen prince bringing the dragons back and defeating some enemies of House Targaryen. The idea that they actually thought or believed that humanity in itself was in danger makes little sense considering that no Targaryen - not even Aemon - seemed to care all that much about such a threat or tried to figure out what it might be. Nothing suggests that Aemon - or even pre-greenseer Bloodraven - had any clues about what was going on beyond the Wall. If that was the case one assumes that Aemon (and Bloodraven before him) had made serious (and successful) efforts to convince Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II to support the Night's Watch or investigate whatever might be going on in the Land of Always Winter.

 

 

This.

 

I think you've pretty much captured a lot of my questions on this.

 

First, we don't know if the prophesy that Rhaegar was trying to follow was the same as Azor Ahai. I suspect that as with our world, there are intertwining apocolyptic mythologies and different cultures or traditions have different interpretations.

We see the Dothraki have their own origin story for the birth of the dragons.

 

If this has anything to do with the Others, why didn't he do anything in the here and now to strengthen the Wall, or go on sojourn to the Wall? He was in contact with Aemon, didn't Aemon hit him up for some money and recruits, or try to get "real time" assistance other than to wait for Rhaegar to sire super babies that won't do anything for another fifteen years.

 

That aspect is one reason I question whether the Long Night and the prophesy Rhaegar followed were connected.

 

How does Rhaegar know that his offspring won't be part of the problem rather than the solution? Where did  he get the notion that he was the one, or his offspring rather than Viserys?

 

And speaking of Viserys, couldn't he have been potentially been the third head with Rhaenys and Aegon?

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This.
 
 
And speaking of Viserys, couldn't he have been potentially been the third head with Rhaenys and Aegon?


Not sure about prophecy, but maybe rhaegar thought three heads should be in one generation, like the first aegon and his two sisters.
Otherwise there were four heads if we included rhaegar and viserys, or six heads including their parents?

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Not sure about prophecy, but maybe rhaegar thought three heads should be in one generation, like the first aegon and his two sisters.
Otherwise there were four heads if we included rhaegar and viserys, or six heads including their parents?

Well I think that is the problem with the definition of the three heads.
Who are they and why did Rhaegar think himself "THE Dragon?" as opposed TO his father, mother or brother or his brothers line?
The familys dragons blood is more pure at this point and the reason I assume Aerys and Rhaella had to incestuosly marry and mate, than the blood of his own children if "blood of the Dragon" is a factor in waking any Dragon to use against an apocalyptic enemy.

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Well I think that is the problem with the definition of the three heads.
Who are they and why did Rhaegar think himself "THE Dragon?" as opposed TO his father, mother or brother or his brothers line?
The familys dragons blood is more pure at this point and the reason I assume Aerys and Rhaella had to incestuosly marry and mate, than the blood of his own children. If "blood of the Dragon" is a factor in waking any Dragon to use against an apocalyptic enemy.


If I understand correctly, you mean probably rhaegar, viserys and dany are three heads in the prophecy, but rhaegar had wrongly interpreted as his own three children? Because their blood were more dragon than children of rhaegar and elia and lyanna?
Actually this makes some sense.

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If I understand correctly, you mean probably rhaegar, viserys and dany are three heads in the prophecy, but rhaegar had wrongly interpreted as his own three children? Because their blood were more dragon than children of rhaegar and elia and lyanna?
Actually this makes some sense.

 

:bowdown: :bawl:

 

Thank you for understanding this, lol.

 

But yes, you see the point I'm trying to make.

 

The other troubling thing about Aegon and his wives and embracing that vision is that they came as conquerors, and in some cases, destroyers. I know some will say they unified warring kingdoms, but for every kingdom they unified, they were replaced by factions siding with one side of the other of a royal family engaged in civil war and dancing dragons.

 

They didn't come to Westeros to save them, but were fleeing their own destruction.

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Yeah. I know there is nothing she can do to stop the war. But I am wondering why she can not ask somebody (even Rhaegar) to bring a message to Ned saying she is fine and then Ned does not need to worry about her.

 

Who says she didn't? (I'm not saying she did BTW)

 

Somehow he knew where to find her after the war...

 

The key point is this. Despite Robert's fine words, the 'abduction' of Lyanna was, although a key flashpoint, actually irrelevant to the war. The rebellion started after Aerys was unsatisfied with the deaths of Brandon (rightfully, if cruelly, for treason) and Rickard (by his own choice championing Brandon in a trial - a trial in which Aerys cheated), and demanded the heads of Ned and Robert as well. Jon Arryn rebelled at at that, unwilling to give up his foster-sons, and obviously both of them had no choice but to join him in rebellion - the alternative being offering up their heads to Aerys as demanded.
By the time Lyanna could possibly have heard about events in KL it would have been far too late. Her brother and father are already dead and her family set against Rhaegar's with no possibility of reconciliation so long as mad and paranoid Aerys still sits the throne. She's actually an irrelevance to the whole war by then, though no doubt Aerys would have wanted to get a hold of her to use as a hostage and Ned and Robert just to get her back. If she goes back to Ned and Robert she is set against Rhaegar, possibly her (polygamous) husband by then. And no doubt set to be Robert's wife, a position she has already expressed her dissatisfaction with to Ned. Its a no win situation for both her and Rhaegar.

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Who says she didn't? (I'm not saying she did BTW)
 
Somehow he knew where to find her after the war...
 
The key point is this. Despite Robert's fine words, the 'abduction' of Lyanna was, although a key flashpoint, actually irrelevant to the war. The rebellion started after Aerys was unsatisfied with the deaths of Brandon (rightfully, if cruelly, for treason) and Rickard (by his own choice championing Brandon in a trial - a trial in which Aerys cheated), and demanded the heads of Ned and Robert as well. Jon Arryn rebelled at at that, unwilling to give up his foster-sons, and obviously both of them had no choice but to join him in rebellion - the alternative being offering up their heads to Aerys as demanded.
By the time Lyanna could possibly have heard about events in KL it would have been far too late. Her brother and father are already dead and her family set against Rhaegar's with no possibility of reconciliation so long as mad and paranoid Aerys still sits the throne. She's actually an irrelevance to the whole war by then, though no doubt Aerys would have wanted to get a hold of her to use as a hostage and Ned and Robert just to get her back. If she goes back to Ned and Robert she is set against Rhaegar, possibly her (polygamous) husband by then. And no doubt set to be Robert's wife, a position she has already expressed her dissatisfaction with to Ned. Its a no win situation for both her and Rhaegar.

I agree. She had better stay silent and hidden and also be careful about her baby. But of course very upset about the deaths of her family and worried about Ned.
I am just wondering if Rhaegar told Robert and Ned that Lyanna would be killed if they did not bend their knees, what will happen then?
He did not need to really kill her, just use it to blackmail them with this message.

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@ Unmasked Lurker:

 

I put your comments in a spoiler only because I don't know how to quote from a locked thread and when I cut and pasted from the previous thread, it looked odd. So, spoiler ONLY to keep from being distracting. 

 

[spoiler] Of course we have to fill in some blanks -- that is what GRRM does -- he gives us part of the story and we need to use our logical reasoning ability to try to fill in the rest (play Sherlock Holmes). Sometimes we get it right and sometimes wrong. But that does not mean there are "holes" in a particular theory -- just that alternative theories might also be plausible. I think that is an important distinction. 

 

Now directly to your points. I highly doubt that the vision has been given to the readers as a "trick" to mislead us about what Rhaegar was thinking or doing. Based on the context and content of the statements made in the vision, I think it is reasonable to conclude that we were seeing basically what actually happened at that time. The only obvious "trick" about the vision is when Rhaegar appears to look at Dany. I believe that the reason for this "trick" is obvious -- that statement by Rhaegar was the part that was meant to be a message to Dany -- and she got it and understood. Note that Rhaegar says "there must be one more" but Dany understands how that statement applies to her -- to her there must be "two more" because she is one of the heads and she understand she needs to find the other two -- not one more as Rhaegar actually said (because he was talking about his understanding at that time and not actually talking to Dany -- but she got what it meant for her).

 

As to whether Rhaegar believed his three children would be the three heads -- I think in context there is no other reasonable conclusion. He just states that Aegon is TPTWP. We know he has two children at that point. We know he says that the dragon must have three heads. If he thought that he or Viserys could be the third head, he would not say there must be one more -- all three heads would already be identified. There must be one more means either that he does not know who the third head is but needs to find him or her (seems unlikely as he knows who all the living Targs are) or that he is saying he needs to have one more child to be the third head. That latter interpretation is by far the most likely. And in working through theories, we need to go with something or we never form any conclusions at all and then what is the point of debating these issues. I would rather use the most reasonable interpretations of the clues to form conclusions and possibly be wrong than just sit around and keep saying that we cannot be sure and we just have to wait. GRRM generally will not give us better clues until the big reveal -- so we have to go with what we have. Sometime we just don't have enough to form a reasonable conclusion -- but here we have enough (even if we still might be wrong).

 

We know that Rhaegar and Aemon both indicate that the dragon must have three heads. While they might not be very good at figuring out who is TPTWP or who are the three heads, they are leading experts on the actual contents of the prophecy. Even if they don't  know what it really means, they know what it says -- so if they say the dragon has three heads, they must be getting this from the prophecy. So I think in terms of forming conclusions, we can be fairly comfortable with the conclusion that the prophecy includes a statement that the dragon has three heads. It is up to the readers to interpret the true meaning -- the characters won't do that until the "big reveal" but we have enough clues to try to make a reasoned conclusion (admitting, of course, as with all of these theories, that we might be wrong).

 

As to whether Rhaegar is happy in the vision --  yes, I think he is. He just saw the birth of TPTWP. The prophecy that he feels responsible to ensure gets fulfilled is in the process of being fulfilled (in his view), and I think he loves his children (and at a minimum is fond of Elia and perhaps loves her on some level even if not "in love" with her). At that moment, Elia probably has not yet been told that she cannot have any more children (Aegon seems to be basically a new-born infant at that moment), so if that is the case, then Rhaegar likely simply means that he and Elia need to have one more child. I am not sure that at that point, Rhaegar had any consideration of having a child with another woman. That plan presumably only forms after he finds out that Elia can have no more children (again, even if we don't know this fact for certain, it is a reasonable and logical conclusion).

 

Finally, in terms of the "gap" that you reference -- of course there is a gap -- GRRM needs to keep the readers guessing a bit. But we have enough information about Rhaegar and Lyanna to conclude that under whatever circumstances Rhaegar "took" Lyanna, it is highly unlikely that he kept her captive against her will. If Rhaegar is bound and determined to "create" the third head of the dragon, he is going to want this child to be a "dragon" in every sense that Rhaegar can control -- which would include getting married to Lyanna. While a Targ bastard is referred to as a dragonseed, Rhaegar would think he needs more than just a dragonseed (although I think Rhaegar probably was wrong on this point -- but it makes sense that Rhaegar would believe this element of fulfilling the prophecy) but a true dragon, which would mean having a trueborn Targ -- i.e., a child of Rhaegar and a woman married to Rhaegar. So while GRRM has not given us enough information to make definitive conclusions about the circumstances surrounding the "abduction and imprisonment" of Lyanna (of course I put those words in quotes because I don't think that is really what happened), we can use our logical reasoning powers based on other information we have (e.g., how Ned thinks of Rhaegar, why the KG were at ToJ and not DS with Viserys, etc.) to conclude that Lyanna voluntarily stayed with Rhaegar (even if she might not have known he was coming for her initially -- not sure on that point -- could go either way) that they got married and intentionally tried to have a child together. [/spoiler]

 

Agree that this interpretation is allowable from the text--as you are fully aware. Only argument is that it is not the only interp, especially of the visions in the House of the Undying

 

1. RE: your argument about the vision meaning that Dany now has to have three heads of dragon: IF assume Rhaegar is looking at Dany because it’s a clue about what she must do, then have to assume that Rhaegar was at least partially right that his kid (Jon) would be the PTWP. Just wrong about which kid. And thus it’s a hint to Dany. But nowhere in text does it say Rhaegar has interpreted the prophecy correctly, So far, everyone in the novels has a dismal record of prophecy interpretation. Case in point from the same set of visions: Rhaego. Also—details on Red Wedding a bit off.

 

2. BUT: if the vision of Rhaegar is like the two visions before it—part of Dany’s family history—then she’s seeing what was. What Rhaegar’s intent WAS, not will be. The vision is then “Rhaegar in the moment” –like the other visions of the past show people in a moment (The Red Door, Aerys, Silver, etc.). So, he could be thinking in that moment—“could have one of my siblings."

 

3. So, vision isn’t “tricking” us—it’s just part of the context given in the visions. Unreliable. And not stated if it’s past, present, things that will be, or things that never will be. Which is in context with the rest of the visions--some show past, some show future, some show what will never be. Rhaegar's vision is right after the other Targ visions of family "heritage"--Dany and her red door, Aery's depopulation program, and Rhaegar. 

 

4.  Bottom Line: Vision shows that Rhaegar was thinking about the prophecy. But it does not confirm or necessarily imply he would need or think he’d need to kidnap/”persuade” another woman/girl to get a child. Depends only on if think it's a future vision hint. And given the context and the nature of the Undying per se, the idea that the vision could just be the past and that the Undying are NOT trying to help has to be one of the interpretive options.

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@JStargaryen

 

As I said to UL above, don't know how to quote from locked threads. Only put your comments in a spoiler because it looked odd cut and pasted.

 

[spoiler] But the HH plot was an utter failure. Perhaps plan B required something a bit more drastic. Also, he may have come to view the SAA as a looming threat, and/or realized that he wouldn't be able to work with these lords in the way that he had hoped, because they had their own plans. Again, he has his own future reign to worry about, not to mention Aegon's. He couldn't turn to the lords as he had hoped, nor could he turn to his father. Or, and here's another take, maybe he wanted to pit his father against the SAA and see who reached out to him first. If it was the SAA, he would obviously have to provide them with a good excuse for taking Lyanna. But I'm sure he would have one ready, if need be.

 

Whatever the reason, just kidnapping Lyanna was very likely to fuel his father's paranoia. So I'm not sure that line of reasoning can be used to effectively counter an argument about motive. [/spoiler]

Agree that he needed a plan B. But really think kidnapping Lyanna is a lot more than just a bit more drastic. Can't see that we have any direct evidence that Rhaegar was getting that desperate. And going from "let's all be friends and work together" to "I'm kidnapping your daughter so you'll turn against my father"--that seems like a pretty big leap.
 
Which brings me back to your earlier point--maybe Rhaegar knew something we don't know yet. I'd say that's a very safe bet, considering the gaps in the text. So, maybe he knew enough to panic. For now, can't see that we know that.

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@ Unmasked Lurker:

 

I put your comments in a spoiler only because I don't know how to quote from a locked thread and when I cut and pasted from the previous thread, it looked odd. So, spoiler ONLY to keep from being distracting. 

 

[spoiler] Of course we have to fill in some blanks -- that is what GRRM does -- he gives us part of the story and we need to use our logical reasoning ability to try to fill in the rest (play Sherlock Holmes). Sometimes we get it right and sometimes wrong. But that does not mean there are "holes" in a particular theory -- just that alternative theories might also be plausible. I think that is an important distinction. 

 

Now directly to your points. I highly doubt that the vision has been given to the readers as a "trick" to mislead us about what Rhaegar was thinking or doing. Based on the context and content of the statements made in the vision, I think it is reasonable to conclude that we were seeing basically what actually happened at that time. The only obvious "trick" about the vision is when Rhaegar appears to look at Dany. I believe that the reason for this "trick" is obvious -- that statement by Rhaegar was the part that was meant to be a message to Dany -- and she got it and understood. Note that Rhaegar says "there must be one more" but Dany understands how that statement applies to her -- to her there must be "two more" because she is one of the heads and she understand she needs to find the other two -- not one more as Rhaegar actually said (because he was talking about his understanding at that time and not actually talking to Dany -- but she got what it meant for her).

 

As to whether Rhaegar believed his three children would be the three heads -- I think in context there is no other reasonable conclusion. He just states that Aegon is TPTWP. We know he has two children at that point. We know he says that the dragon must have three heads. If he thought that he or Viserys could be the third head, he would not say there must be one more -- all three heads would already be identified. There must be one more means either that he does not know who the third head is but needs to find him or her (seems unlikely as he knows who all the living Targs are) or that he is saying he needs to have one more child to be the third head. That latter interpretation is by far the most likely. And in working through theories, we need to go with something or we never form any conclusions at all and then what is the point of debating these issues. I would rather use the most reasonable interpretations of the clues to form conclusions and possibly be wrong than just sit around and keep saying that we cannot be sure and we just have to wait. GRRM generally will not give us better clues until the big reveal -- so we have to go with what we have. Sometime we just don't have enough to form a reasonable conclusion -- but here we have enough (even if we still might be wrong).

 

We know that Rhaegar and Aemon both indicate that the dragon must have three heads. While they might not be very good at figuring out who is TPTWP or who are the three heads, they are leading experts on the actual contents of the prophecy. Even if they don't  know what it really means, they know what it says -- so if they say the dragon has three heads, they must be getting this from the prophecy. So I think in terms of forming conclusions, we can be fairly comfortable with the conclusion that the prophecy includes a statement that the dragon has three heads. It is up to the readers to interpret the true meaning -- the characters won't do that until the "big reveal" but we have enough clues to try to make a reasoned conclusion (admitting, of course, as with all of these theories, that we might be wrong).

 

As to whether Rhaegar is happy in the vision --  yes, I think he is. He just saw the birth of TPTWP. The prophecy that he feels responsible to ensure gets fulfilled is in the process of being fulfilled (in his view), and I think he loves his children (and at a minimum is fond of Elia and perhaps loves her on some level even if not "in love" with her). At that moment, Elia probably has not yet been told that she cannot have any more children (Aegon seems to be basically a new-born infant at that moment), so if that is the case, then Rhaegar likely simply means that he and Elia need to have one more child. I am not sure that at that point, Rhaegar had any consideration of having a child with another woman. That plan presumably only forms after he finds out that Elia can have no more children (again, even if we don't know this fact for certain, it is a reasonable and logical conclusion).

 

Finally, in terms of the "gap" that you reference -- of course there is a gap -- GRRM needs to keep the readers guessing a bit. But we have enough information about Rhaegar and Lyanna to conclude that under whatever circumstances Rhaegar "took" Lyanna, it is highly unlikely that he kept her captive against her will. If Rhaegar is bound and determined to "create" the third head of the dragon, he is going to want this child to be a "dragon" in every sense that Rhaegar can control -- which would include getting married to Lyanna. While a Targ bastard is referred to as a dragonseed, Rhaegar would think he needs more than just a dragonseed (although I think Rhaegar probably was wrong on this point -- but it makes sense that Rhaegar would believe this element of fulfilling the prophecy) but a true dragon, which would mean having a trueborn Targ -- i.e., a child of Rhaegar and a woman married to Rhaegar. So while GRRM has not given us enough information to make definitive conclusions about the circumstances surrounding the "abduction and imprisonment" of Lyanna (of course I put those words in quotes because I don't think that is really what happened), we can use our logical reasoning powers based on other information we have (e.g., how Ned thinks of Rhaegar, why the KG were at ToJ and not DS with Viserys, etc.) to conclude that Lyanna voluntarily stayed with Rhaegar (even if she might not have known he was coming for her initially -- not sure on that point -- could go either way) that they got married and intentionally tried to have a child together. [/spoiler]

 

Agree that this interpretation is allowable from the text--as you are fully aware. Only argument is that it is not the only interp, especially of the visions in the House of the Undying

 

1. RE: your argument about the vision meaning that Dany now has to have three heads of dragon: IF assume Rhaegar is looking at Dany because its a clue about what she must do, then have to assume that Rhaegar was at least partially right that his kid (Jon) would be the PTWP. Just wrong about which kid. And thus its a hint to Dany. But nowhere in text does it say Rhaegar has interpreted the prophecy correctly, So far, everyone in the novels has a dismal record of prophecy interpretation. Case in point from the same set of visions: Rhaego. Alsodetails on Red Wedding a bit off.

 

2. BUT: if the vision of Rhaegar is like the two visions before itpart of Danys family historythen shes seeing what was. What Rhaegars intent WAS, not will be. The vision is then Rhaegar in the moment like the other visions of the past show people in a moment (The Red Door, Aerys, Silver, etc.). So, he could be thinking in that momentcould have one of my siblings."

 

3. So, vision isnt tricking usits just part of the context given in the visions. Unreliable. And not stated if its past, present, things that will be, or things that never will be. Which is in context with the rest of the visions--some show past, some show future, some show what will never be. Rhaegar's vision is right after the other Targ visions of family "heritage"--Dany and her red door, Aery's depopulation program, and Rhaegar. 

 

4.  Bottom Line: Vision shows that Rhaegar was thinking about the prophecy. But it does not confirm or necessarily imply he would need or think hed need to kidnap/persuade another woman/girl to get a child. Depends only on if think it's a future vision hint. And given the context and the nature of the Undying per se, the idea that the vision could just be the past and that the Undying are NOT trying to help has to be one of the interpretive options.


Actually the vision isn't all that happy, he says to Elia, "sadly," there must be one more.

And then he says the same thing to Dany through the filter of a vision,

Both relate to Jon. Its interesting that it almost feels like Rhaegar is speaking through the confines of the "vision" to tell Dany to find Jon.

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If Ben miraculously reappears after all these books I imagine he will have some story similar to what you are suggesting. In reality though I don't think we will see him again. There isn't a good reason for the first ranger to go off the radar for so long especially after the NW brothers were killed and turned into undead. Unless he was captured by the others or some group and is finally released...

 

 

I was more interested in the speculation of the readers. If Jon is really the Song of Ice and Fire he is the namesake of the series, I'm just wondering what people think that role might be. I think I've read significant suggestion that such a person is 'water' and is the balancing force to the world. But how does that even work? Will he invoke a power such as light bringer to win this war or to restore balance to the force:P? What would be a satisfying execution of Jon Targaryen the Prince who was promised who's song is that of ice and fire in the final act of this story?

 

Are you so sure Jon is the PTWP? Maester Aemon would disagree, he placed his bet on Dany. We also don't know if Azor Ahai and PTWP are one or two separate characters. In case of two, I'd say Jon is more Azor Ahai than the promised prince. In that case we may find that song of ice and fire is not Jon's. Of course, we have plenty of candidates to be Azor Ahai, not only Jon.

 

Jon will be the leader sometime close to the end of series. Leader of which side, I'm not sure yet. I really doubt scenario "Dany comes to Westeros with her dragons, all join her final quest to defeat the Others". I think we'll see a lot of internal conflicts before that final battle and I wouldn't be surprised to find Jon opposing Daenerys, at least at some point.

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Actually the vision isn't all that happy, he says to Elia, "sadly," there must be one more.

And then he says the same thing to Dany through the filter of a vision,

Both relate to Jon. Its interesting that it almost feels like Rhaegar is speaking through the confines of the "vision" to tell Dany to find Jon.

1. True re: Rhaegar--but he seems to frequently be "sad." Was mostly thinking that the scene looks like parents happy over baby.

 

2. The vision part is my point--we've no evidence from the text that specifies whether this is a future vision or a past vision. It comes right after 2 Targ visions of the past (Dany's red door and Aerys' wildfire nuclear option). So what if this is just straight? Rhaegar as he was thinking in the moment? And that's why he's looking at Dany--because he might have been thinking about one of his siblings as the third head. So, it's past--like the previous visions (Dany with door and Aerys).

 

3. Can only assume it's telling Dany about Jon if first assume that Jon is key to Dany. If assume Rhaegar was somehow right about one of his kids being the Prince that was Promised. But can't think we have any evidence he was right. Lots of evidence of people messing up interp of prophecy right and left. No evidence I can think of that Rhaegar was immune to this fault. And if don't assume that Rhaegar was right, if don't assume Jon=prince--the scene is just what it looks like. The past.

 

4. Bottom line--this might be a message from Rhaegar. But given the context of the rest of the visions, not to mention the general "untrustworthiness" of the Undying per se--can't see how this is proof Jon=prince or Rhaegar was somehow right. Seems like you have to assume that he's right before can see it as a message. And I can't think of any evidence that Rhaegar is right.

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If Ben miraculously reappears after all these books I imagine he will have some story similar to what you are suggesting. In reality though I don't think we will see him again. There isn't a good reason for the first ranger to go off the radar for so long especially after the NW brothers were killed and turned into undead. Unless he was captured by the others or some group and is finally released...

As it was foreshadowed in the Chapter when Benjin, Tyrion, & Jon were headed North to Castle Black, Benjin has been captured by the Others...

 

Later in AGOTs, it was foreshadowed that Jon & Ghost would go find him (Benjin)... GRRM has also mentioned that we will get a POV character visiting the Heart of Winter - & it seems logical to me that this would occur in TWOW...

 

Ghost/Jon will go find Benjin in the heart of Winter in the upcoming book...

 

 


I was more interested in the speculation of the readers. If Jon is really the Song of Ice and Fire he is the namesake of the series, I'm just wondering what people think that role might be. I think I've read significant suggestion that such a person is 'water' and is the balancing force to the world. But how does that even work? Will he invoke a power such as light bringer to win this war or to restore balance to the force:P? What would be a satisfying execution of Jon Targaryen the Prince who was promised who's song is that of ice and fire in the final act of this story?

 

Jon Snow is about to become separated from his body, probably never to return... Jon, will become the Night's King... AA (whoever that may be) will be reborn into Jon's body...

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Agree that he needed a plan B. But really think kidnapping Lyanna is a lot more than just a bit more drastic. Can't see that we have any direct evidence that Rhaegar was getting that desperate. And going from "let's all be friends and work together" to "I'm kidnapping your daughter so you'll turn against my father"--that seems like a pretty big leap.

 
Which brings me back to your earlier point--maybe Rhaegar knew something we don't know yet. I'd say that's a very safe bet, considering the gaps in the text. So, maybe he knew enough to panic. For now, can't see that we know that.

 

Agreed. I'm fully aware that the positions I'm advocating are short on answers, and long on speculation. But in my defense, all of the attempts to explain why Rhaegar abducted Lyanna have this issue.

 

One of the reasons a political motive makes sense to me is that, kidnapping Lyanna Stark would always, and very obviously, create a political situation that would have to be dealt with.

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I was more interested in the speculation of the readers. If Jon is really the Song of Ice and Fire he is the namesake of the series, I'm just wondering what people think that role might be. I think I've read significant suggestion that such a person is 'water' and is the balancing force to the world. But how does that even work? Will he invoke a power such as light bringer to win this war or to restore balance to the force:P? What would be a satisfying execution of Jon Targaryen the Prince who was promised who's song is that of ice and fire in the final act of this story?

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that the true battle will mirror the Wot5K within the Riverlands. Two major powers battling it out, with the small folk taking a beating from both sides and the in the end the small folk will have to either fight both or find a balance (which seems to be coming in the Riverlands), so Fire power vs. Ice powers and humans stuck in the middle. Personally I have yet to figure out who will be on which side, but I do have the feeling that AA will be on the side of fire, not on the side of humanity.

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How do you get to 21 months?

 

Probably shortest span: Rhaegar 'stealing' Lyanna to just a bit after the Battle of the Bells: 11 months,

 

longest: Rhaegar disappearing a while before new years and until shortly before the trident: 21 months

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