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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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Well, yes, but Rhaegar does not have any magical powers. Mel uses her powers to try to find AAR and continually misinterprets her own visions. Rhaegar merely is arrogant and thinks he is smart enough to figure it out through research and hard thinking and writing back and forth with Aemon. And Rhaegar gets most of the interpretations wrong -- and keeps trying and keeps changing  him mind -- but it appears that the one thing he got right was the need to have a child with Lyanna which I believe he would not have done but for the prophecy (TV show notwithstanding -- even if the action is going to be similar in both -- the motives are likely to be quite different between the books and the show). So by pursuing the prophecy, Rhaegar set in motion events that brought down his entire family and dynasty -- but I believe he did succeed in fathering TPTWP.

 

Poor Rhaegar. If he had read the books several years earlier about the ice and fire thing, he would have just talked with Stark family and then waited for a couple of years as a single man and then married Lyanna directly. Then everybody is happy. Elia can just marry that nice guy in High Tower. 

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Poor Rhaegar. If he had read the books several years earlier about the ice and fire thing, he would have just talked with Stark family and then waited for a couple of years as a single man and then married Lyanna directly. Then everybody is happy. Elia can just marry that nice guy in High Tower. 

Well, but then we would be out this great story because then none of the events of ASOIAF would have happened.

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Well, but then we would be out this great story because then none of the events of ASOIAF would have happened.

:agree:   it probably would have been a story about the continuation of the Targaryen Dynasty, which I actually would have enjoyed just as much

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:agree:   it probably would have been a story about the continuation of the Targaryen Dynasty, which I actually would have enjoyed just as much

 

Likely we will see another Summerhall tragedy which will claim the lives of Rhaegar, Arthur and whoever Rhaegar married after the childbirth death of Lyanna. 

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Don't recall it being mentioned anywhere that Stark means stone. Don't you mean Skagos which, if I recall correctly, means stone in the old tongue.

I, sadly, do not recall who, but someone contributed a nice writeup int he previous several threads about the equivalence of Stark to stone. But, even if you don't accept that, isn't it serious foreshadowing that Daenerys is driven to her knees (by the stone beneath her foot), while the grass bows low to the Dragon?

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I, sadly, do not recall who, but someone contributed a nice writeup int he previous several threads about the equivalence of Stark to stone. But, even if you don't accept that, isn't it serious foreshadowing that Daenerys is driven to her knees (by the stone beneath her foot), while the grass bows low to the Dragon?


I recall reading something about that but can't recall the details. I think it was posted by J. Stargaryen. Maybe he can help us out with a link or re-post.

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Targaryen sigil:

 

There is something there, something that may go back to the Targaryen version of the prophecy. Visenya, Aegon, and Rhaenys themselves may have, at one point, thought they were fulfilling the prophecy, with Aegon being 'the promised prince'. There is still a huge question mark to Aegon's motives to conquer Westeros instead of the Free Cities (a much easier target after the Century of Blood, one imagines), and there are hints towards Dragonstone - Aegon's birth place and his favorite castle - being the place of salt and smoke.

 

If the Targaryen prophecy actually talks about three dragon heads - very likely considering that vision Rhaegar talks about that, too - then it is very likely that the Targaryen banner was modeled after that. It is quite clear that the three-headed dragon of House Targaryen is symbolically depicting Aegon and his sister-wives, three people acting as a unity to accomplish their goal - to subdue Westeros and its kings.

 

The name Visenya did indeed fall out favor with the Targaryens - just as Maegor did, for obvious reasons. All Targaryens are descended from Aenys I, who may have been murdered by Visenya. There is no need to name anyone after the murderess of your ancestor. Prince Viserys, Aenys' second son, the one who was tortured by Tyanna for days, may have been named after Visenya, but Jaehaerys' later preferred Viserra rather than Visenya as a male version of that name (Princess Viserra most likely being named after Jaehaerys' brother Viserys). 

 

Rhaenyra is the Targaryen resurrecting that name, and she only names her stillborn daughter after her, using her whole proclamation there as a political statement. The girl was killed by the usurping Greens, and she names it after a warrior-queen of her house to demonstrate to the world that she won't give in to this treachery - she will fight Aegon II with everything she has got. I very much doubt that Rhaenyra would have chosen that name had the girl lived.

 

Rhaegar never tried to emulate Aegon and his sisters. He had a daughter, and named her Rhaenys, a very common name among the Targaryens considering that she one (or the only) founder of the dynasty. We don't yet know when or why Rhaegar started doubting that he was the promised prince but it was the comet that made him wonder/hope/believe that his second child may be that guy. The comet was seen above KL in the night of Aegon's conception. But Rhaegar only could conclude that this was actually the case after the child was actually born and turned out to be male.

 

Now, as to how Rhaegar came to conclusion that he was the promised prince:

 

In light of the Ghost's prophecy to Jaehaerys II there is really no reason to believe that Rhaegar just stumbled on some prophecy. His grandfather and parents actually looked for this guy, and the whole smoke and tears of Summerhall thing as well as the Aerys-and-Rhaella's line thing would have been enough to make Jaehaerys, Aemon, and Aerys/Rhaella believe that Rhaegar was the One. At one point then either Rhaella or Aerys showed Rhaegar the prophecy and fed him the idea that he might be or most certainly was the guy it talked about.

The idea that Rhaegar just chanced upon that prophecy while it was already a topic that had greatly influenced his parents' life doesn't make any sense.

 

As to prophecy-fulfillment:

 

A lot of people seem to take the whole aspects of the prophecy we know of as part of a catalog the 'savior candidates' have to fulfill one way or the other - and even assuming that people who have already done stuff mentioned therein did it 'wrong' even if it wasn't a deliberate charade. But there is actually a good chance that doing the stuff in the prophecy - say, waking dragons from stone/pulling something from a fire while a red comet is in the sky - is actually all there is to that particular prophecy.

Daenerys has other stuff to do and to suffer as far as the Undying are concerned, but the whole ancient prophecy stuff may actually be fulfilled since AGoT. It is quite clear that we got most of the details of the prophecy even despite the fact that we never got its text simply because we can deduce from Rhaegar's lack of action that neither the Others nor the actual mission of the promised prince are described therein. The only thing I think could be elaborated on in future books would be the dragon heads thing since that may become important. Or we could get a new or recover a very old prophecy nobody knew about until now to get additional insight.

But the heroic deeds of 'the Hero' aren't part of any prophecy we have as of yet seen unless we count Daenerys as Rhaegar fighting the ice guys at the Trident (which I do consider a prophetic dream) - even the Slayer of Lies stuff is a prelude to the actual 'story' (the false saviors have to go before the actual battle can begin). And George would have been stupid to put any prophecies about that in the books considering that he has yet to reveal anything about the Others. It is quite clear that he does not intend to give the reader any real clues about the War for the Dawn.

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As it was foreshadowed in the Chapter when Benjin, Tyrion, & Jon were headed North to Castle Black, Benjin has been captured by the Others...
 
Later in AGOTs, it was foreshadowed that Jon & Ghost would go find him (Benjin)... GRRM has also mentioned that we will get a POV character visiting the Heart of Winter - & it seems logical to me that this would occur in TWOW...
 .


When was it foreshadowed?

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When was it foreshadowed?

 

while they are traveling to the wall from winterfell after Tyrion gives his "thats why I read so much.." speech  to jon  .. Benjen tells Jon not to disappear like that again or he will think The Others got him 

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Would what Rhaegar read in that mysterious book be considered one of the most important mysteries of asoiaf? Will we ever know what he read? Does it even matter?

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while they are traveling to the wall from winterfell after Tyrion gives his "thats why I read so much.." speech  to jon  .. Benjen tells Jon not to disappear like that again or he will think The Others got him


Thanks, do you know what the second foreshadowing was, where Jon & Ghost would find Benjen?

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Poor Rhaegar. If he had read the books several years earlier about the ice and fire thing, he would have just talked with Stark family and then waited for a couple of years as a single man and then married Lyanna directly. Then everybody is happy. Elia can just marry that nice guy in High Tower. 


Yes.
Her mother wouldn't have wanted to spite Tyson enough to put Elia in his crosshairs - it would have been Lyanna.

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Does anyone else get the feeling there will be a backstory on how Rhaegar and Lyanna might have just missed each other?

That after the debacle of Tywins plans, Steffon urged Robert to go after Lyanna because maybe he sought her for Rhaegar, but lied and kept that connection for the Berantheons, especially since the sons were already fostered together?

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Does anyone else get the feeling there will be a backstory on how Rhaegar and Lyanna might have just missed each other?
That after the debacle of Tywins plans, Steffon urged Robert to go after Lyanna because maybe he sought her for Rhaegar, but lied and kept that connection for the Berantheons, especially since the sons were already fostered together?


? Where does this come from? Targ only looks for dragon blood bride. That is why Steffen died in 278 due to his journey to find Rhaegar a bride.

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? Where does this come from? Targ only looks for dragon blood bride. That is why Steffen died in 278 due to his journey to find Rhaegar a bride.


It comes purely from my own speculation, because Steffon did not find a bride of dragonsblood, however, he still needed to find a bride.

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It comes purely from my own speculation, because Steffon did not find a bride of dragonsblood, however, he still needed to find a bride.

Right, that is why they found Elia because she had dragon blood. Not much though.
In fact, if Robb had a sister, she will be the best bride for rhaegar. They are cousins. Closet to Targ, I think.

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While I basically agree with everything you have written here, I don't think these conclusions logically dictate that Rhaegar was "trying to recreate Aegon and his sister" or that he thought Lyanna would have a female child or that he intended to name that child Visenya. Yes, I think he probably thought that the family sigil was a sign that if the dragon has three heads, the three heads would be Targs and likely siblings (but not necessarily, as he once thought himself to be TPTWP). I just don't think that thought process equates to "re-creating" the 3 conquering Targs or an intention to name his three children after those three Targs.

 

I wasn't trying to lay out all the reasons for thinking Rhaegar had come to believe he had to have three children, and that those children would emulate Aegon and his sister in restoring his house to it's power, most likely by bringing back dragons, and thereby fulfilling the prophecies. I was trying to answer purple eyes question about why would Rhaegar name his child Rhaenys if he thought that was the case. My point was that Rhaegar changed his view of the prophecy after Rhaenys's birth. It's a fairly simple and straight forward conclusion that if he changes his understanding of who is the prince that was promised and believes that his new son Aegon is that fabled prince, that his actions before that change - like the naming of his first child - will not necessarily reflect his later thinking. Not hard to understand and extremely logical.

 

If you want to discuss what was Rhaegar's understanding of prophecy and the importance of things like his answer to Elia about there must be one more because the dragon has three heads, then I'd be happy to have that discussion, but let's not start out on the wrong foot by using my answer to purple eyes to mischaracterize my thinking. Always happy to have the discussion as long as it remains respectful to each other. Just let me know.

 

By the way, LV, I very much like your post on the sigil. Well said.

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Right, that is why they found Elia because she had dragon blood. Not much though.
In fact, if Robb had a sister, she will be the best bride for rhaegar. They are cousins. Closet to Targ, I think.

You mean 'if Robert had a sister'? Then she probably would have been chosen, yes. Child of Aerys' trusted friend and cousin, with closest family relations. If only Stannis had been a girl...

Which all makes me wonder more and more where the Tarth relations to House Targaryen came in, what happened to Maegor and Vaella, and to whom Daella and Rhae were married. Atm I assume that either Rhae or Daella was married to a Tarth, which could then mean that there was no female to marry from that line.. but Aegon had two sisters, and both sisters had at least one child.. was there no female descendant?

I wonder, is there anyone left in the current story who could shed some more lift on Aerys' decision? Doran can tell us how Elia's marriage came to be (something I actually can see happening, if Arianne allies Dorne to Aegon). But what about all of Aerys' reasonings before? Varys.. JonCon perhaps, to some degree... Who else?

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