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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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I agree some of the storyline is clear.

 

Rhaegar gives Lyanna rose crown at Harrenhal (context to be determined)

General knowledge (but no direct evidence) says Rhaegar and Co. "fell" on Lyanna some time after Harrenhal.

Them Rhaegar and Lyanna are AWOL.

Hightower sent after Rhaegar.

Rhaegar returns to KL, has a conversation with Jaime, and dies at the Trident.

 

We don't know if Rhaegar and Lyanna went to the tower of joy. Ned thinks "it was said that Rhaegar called this place the tower of joy"--no source. No context. No evidence of whether or not Ned believes the statement. Ned was very uncooperative about letting readers inside his head. (Almost like he didn't realize he was helping to narrate a novel . . . grumble, grumble.)

 

We don't know if the KG "guarded" Lyanna. Seems very possible given multiple scenarios. But if they did guard her, don't know the context. And we do not know if Lyanna or Jon were at the tower. Don't know if the KG are guarding anyone or anything at the tower.

 

Ned got to the tower. Was that his actual destination? Text doesn't say--uncooperative dreams. Text can be read as Ned's being surprised to see the KG. So. . was Ned going to the toj? Or was he going somewhere else via the Prince's Pass and just "found" the KG?

 

We know that Hightower was dispatched to find Rhaegar and that when he found him, he stayed there while Rhaegar returned. I pretty sure Hightower got a general heading (south into Prince's pass) by raven from someone in the reach, and Ned got the same information by talking to the same person at Storms End when or after he broke the siege.

 

We don't know why he or the other Kingsguard were there. From Jamie we get the idea of conflicting oaths, and from Barristan we have the knowledge that they obey the orders of those that have governance over them and may be dispatched to protect someone else other than a king or crown prince (a lover or mistress are sited as examples).

 

I do find it odd that Ned thinks of Jon a grand total of three times after he leaves for KL (Eddard IV, IX and XV ) and when he's thinking of the promise it's never in association with Jon. Personallly I think R+L does =J but as time has gone on, I am open to other options.

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Not very clear. George did not make it very clear for some reason.
But he ran off some time before the rebellion started.
He came back shortly before battle of trident which was the last battle of the rebellion.
after that sack of KL happened in a couple of weeks and rebellion ended.
The whole rebellion lasted one year.

So it is safe to say rhaegar stayed in TOJ for almost one year. Or slightly less than one year.

 

How do you make such conclusion? In Ned's dream when asked about sack of KL, KG tell they were "far away". Of course, TOJ is far from KL, but it's a subtle distinction between "far away" and "here". I'd say it's very likely they were somewhere else.

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How do you make such conclusion? In Ned's dream when asked about sack of KL, KG tell they were "far away". Of course, TOJ is far from KL, but it's a subtle distinction between "far away" and "here". I'd say it's very likely they were somewhere else.


wouldn't rhaegar want the child born near salt and smoke?

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wouldn't rhaegar want the child born near salt and smoke?

 

Not necessary - that was part of the PtwP prophecy I beieve and Aegon was his PtwP. We don't know anything about the 'third head' needing such requirements.

 

Or am I forgetting something?

 

I don't think so. Its basically all about "well, mostly what we know is how much we don't know". The few 'facts' we have usually lack even enough context to 'place' them appropriately within any sort of hard narrative - meaning largely that we must therefore accept a fairly soft narrative. Some are more accepting than others in exactly how 'hard' we can make the narrative of our choices, and most people naturally make it a bit harder in their heads than the actual data confirms - the limited data we are given is often suggestive of other things without confirming them.

 

If Ned hadn't showed up what was their plan?

Where would Lyanna go if her husband was dead. Maybe Her dear Brother, Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell? Why look who it is, none other than the person she would likely run to. Lets kill him!

So what was the KGs plan? Just guard the Tower indefinitely till little Jon came of age? Until Lyanna died and then take lil jon to safety? Were they to seat the bastard child on the throne simply because Arthur was badass and could fight Roberts army alone? If they got new orders from Robert would they follow those?

 

We don't know. At all.

Most likely, hope to remain hidden long enough for Lyanna to recover and be well enough to travel, then head for Essos and temporary (decades), hidden, exile, a la Prince Aegon/Young Griff/Faegon. But thats no more than a guess. There certainly doesn't seem to be anywhere left in Westeros that they could consider a truly safe haven with the war lost.

 

I agree there are a lot of mysteries for rhaegar's missing.
Many of your questions, we do not know answers yet.
But we had some sort of rough timeline and general idea.
Big storyline was clear:
 

 

Note that Sly Wren is technically correct. Much of even what is 'known' is not strictly confirmed by the data but merely put together 'logically' by readers and often confused as confirmed facts.

Each reader must choose for themselves how confident they are in their interpretations, while the wisest keep an open mind even after assessing some probabilities as being high enough to work with 'as though fact'.

 

And certain people demand religious adherence to the strictest limitations of 'fact' the moment you go anywhere near R+L=J. Just shrug your shoulders and carry on is my advice.

Its a pity that so few of them reserve the same attitudes for the wilder (heck, for any) 'alternative' theories.

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Let us see the official App quote for rhaegar's entry.

" but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south."

They were in TOJ.
Three guards were ordered by rhaegar to stay.
Ned went to same TOJ to search for his sister.
Ned fought with three KG.
Ned threw down TOJ to bury them.

I do not understand why these could not be true.


The app. entry, did anyone think it read almost as if Aerys knew?

"Rhaegar was eventually recalled to his duties."

Almost as if Aerys was saying, "vacation over, time to get back to work."

And then there is almost Aerys defense of his son and anger over his "betrayal."

A fond father in his moments of lucidity? Love/hate?

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The app. entry, did anyone think it read almost as if Aerys knew?

"Rhaegar was eventually recalled to his duties."

Almost as if Aerys was saying, "vacation over, time to get back to work."

And then there is almost Aerys defense of his son and anger over his "betrayal."

A fond father in his moments of lucidity? Love/hate?

 

Exactly.

He defended his son by killing Brandon because Brandon asked Rhaegar out to die. 

He did not send White Bull to find him immediately after the Brandon thing. So at least he was not suspicious that Rhaegar was deposing him,

He asked him back for help and listened to his instruction about Tywin and let him lead the army. He at least trusted him for the military force (big trust already). 

He was mad after his death and blamed Lewyn for his son's death. He at least cared about his son. 

If he mistrusted him so much for treason then any of these did not make much sense.

Mad King was mad but he was not an idiot. 

 

IMO, Areys and Rhaegar disliked each other but their relationship was not very bad. Areys was somehow stirred by his people's whispers but he did not think his son would truly be against him (actually Rhaegar did not do this, he just decided to do it after the war. before that he was not happy with his father but he did not want to anything real)

Areys did not know what Rhaegar was doing about Lyanna but he did not think he was deposing him. He probably just feels his son was having some fun with a new woman, like what he did before. And he did not hate or care about Lyanna. 

He only recalled him when the war was too dangerous. Before that he thought himself could clean them.

 

Any theory about how Mad king wanted to kill Lyanna then Rhaegar wanted to protect her from her father's wrath, IMHO, can not be true at all. 

Otherwise mad King would ask KG to take Lyanna back as a hostage. Or even ask them to kill her in TOJ. 

And Lyanna should be safer with her dad in the north. Not with Rhaegar in a southern abandoned tower. 

 

Rheagar ran off with Lyanna due to love and/or prophecy, not due to his father's wrath or suspicion. 

 

There was a slim chance that even mad King was on board with Rhaegar's prophecy plan. 

So he was not surprised about Rhaegar's missing or Lyanna stuff. 

He let his son stay out for a long time to fulfill his purpose. Only when necessary, he called him back.  

But this one was much less likely to happen. Though possible. 

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I wasn't trying to lay out all the reasons for thinking Rhaegar had come to believe he had to have three children, and that those children would emulate Aegon and his sister in restoring his house to it's power, most likely by bringing back dragons, and thereby fulfilling the prophecies. I was trying to answer purple eyes question about why would Rhaegar name his child Rhaenys if he thought that was the case. My point was that Rhaegar changed his view of the prophecy after Rhaenys's birth. It's a fairly simple and straight forward conclusion that if he changes his understanding of who is the prince that was promised and believes that his new son Aegon is that fabled prince, that his actions before that change - like the naming of his first child - will not necessarily reflect his later thinking. Not hard to understand and extremely logical.

 

If you want to discuss what was Rhaegar's understanding of prophecy and the importance of things like his answer to Elia about there must be one more because the dragon has three heads, then I'd be happy to have that discussion, but let's not start out on the wrong foot by using my answer to purple eyes to mischaracterize my thinking. Always happy to have the discussion as long as it remains respectful to each other. Just let me know.

 

By the way, LV, I very much like your post on the sigil. Well said.

I was not trying to put words in your mouth or necessarily start a conversation about Rhaegar's understanding of prophecy. I really was just trying to make a general clarifying statement about the limitations of the conclusions that should be drawn -- as I have seen others take those conclusions further than I think warranted -- but I did not mean to assert specifically that you were taking these conclusions too far in the statements you were making here. I see how my statement could easily be interpreted to suggest as much -- my apologies.

 

 

The first bolded only works if assume Rhaegar was right about the dragon's needing three heads. But can't see where that we have evidence in the text.

 

As for Dany saying she needs to find the two men she can trust, can't see how that innately means "they will be my dragon riders."

 

Agree that Rhaegar thinks the dragon must have three heads--but we don't know for sure why he thinks that or if he's right. And he might be thinking he needs a third child. Or just a third. He doesn't specify. Nor does the scene tell us whether or not he thinks Elia could have another child.

 

On the bolded--he doesn't say. He might be thinking it over while he harps. Might just be thinking about a child and amy think of Viserys later when/if he decides Elia can't give him another child.

 

As we agree--it's in the moment. And in the moment, there's no indication of "can't have another child with Elia" or "my siblings can't be third heads" or "I'm getting desperate and obsessed enough to steal a girl"--in this moment, all seems fairly well. So, can't see how scene pins down Rhaegar's motive for us. Potentially a hint? Sure. Defining his motive absolutely? Can't see how.

 

But the bolded is an assumption. All of that assumes Rhaegar is right about the prophecy, and the vision is a message. But the other visions in the House of the Undying--some are just the past. Some are future that never happens. As for looking at Dany, I agree it could be a hint. But the Wolf-Headed King (aka Robb) also looks at her. Really don't think Robb is looking to Dany for justice. Plus, the Undying are hardly trustworthy.

 

Throw in the shade of the evening and the fact that she only thinks it looks as if Rhaegar is looking at her--again, this could be a hint. But the text has not nailed it down at all.

 

The bolded is not the only option. We do not know if he ruled out his sibling, or future siblings, or anyone else--the vision does not tell us one way of another. And we do not know if he was desperate enough to steal Lyanna, let alone marry her. He might even have re-evaluated his position, as he did on thinking he was the PtwP himself. We don't know. The vision and text do not give us that. And logic does not assert this is the only option.

 

Agree fully that your theory is an option--but cannot see how the text rules out others or in any way makes Rhaegar look desperate enough to steal Lyanna--or anyone else. So, can't see how text has pinned down motive.

 

 

Here is what I think is missing from your analysis. You are asking for the vision alone to answer these questions and assert that the vision alone does not answer these question. What I try to do is take all of the evidence together and ask myself what events are most consistent with all of the available evidence. So the HotU vision needs to be seen in the context of the other information we have been given -- that Rhaegar once thought that he himself was TPTWP but changed his mind to Aegon -- that Aemon and Rhaegar were in communication and apparently discussed the prophecy -- that Aemon also thinks that dragon must have three heads -- that officially people seem to say that Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna but no one (other than Robert) seems to have a bad thing to say or think about Rhaegar (including Ned who likely knows the whole story based on having talked to Lyanna shortly before her death) -- that Elia is told some time after the birth of Aegon that she could have no more children -- that the Targs used to practice polygamy -- etc. etc. (I am probably forgetting some relevant clues).

 

So based on these clues, I try to do what anyone does with any puzzle -- see what "picture" fits best with all of the puzzle pieces. Given that GRRM intentionally is keeping some of the pieces from the readers, the readers are forced to do some "guess work" based on logical reasoning. So let me try to take your points:

 

As to the three heads of the dragon -- based on how Rhaegar and Aemon talk about it, I think it is quite likely -- almost a certainty -- that some statement in some version of the prophecy states that the dragon has three heads. What exactly this statement means is a question of interpretation. But that the statement is part of the prophecy seems to be in little doubt (not 100% certain, but close). So the conclusions that Rhaegar "looking" at Dany being a message to her again is simply the best fit for the available evidence.

 

I recognize that others have not interpreted the evidence the same way that I have -- and thus you are correct that my conclusions depend on other conclusion that are not a certainty. That process is how this logical progression of thought works. But I contend that the conclusions I have reached are a better fit for the clues than any of the alternatives I have read. Of course, that conclusion is just my opinion and I have acknowledged I could be wrong in a number of ways. Pointing out that most every conclusion depends on other conclusions that are not certain does not really address the central point. The central point is that if someone thinks my outline of events is not persuasive, then come up with a more persuasive interpretation. 

 

For example, you state that we don't know that when Rhaegar states that there must be one more he is talking about a third child. Of course we cannot know that -- GRRM makes sure we cannot know that with certainty. But we look at how Rhaegar behaved. We look at the overall context. Rhaegar's actions in going off with Lyanna and having a child with her could just be a big coincidence and done for completely different reasons or not intended at all to be anything other than impulse driven by love or lust. I get that fact -- and I know there is no definitive proof yet. But I am not interested in just waiting to see how it comes out -- if I were I would stay off these boards. I am interested in coming up with a theory most consistent with the clues. I think that the theory most consistent with the clues is that Rhaegar wanted to have a child Lyanna to create the third head of the dragon. It explains why GRRM told us that Elia could not have a third child. It explains potentially why Rhaegar was willing to risk trouble from Robert and Rickard and Aerys and stay hidden for a long time. If someone has a better explanation that fits all the clues -- great, let's hear it. I will completely revise my thoughts if I hear a better theory that is more consistent with the evidence. Until then, I maintain this theory is the best working theory I have heard. Again, telling me that each piece is based on other pieces that are not definitively proven misses my basic point. Of course, it is. The question is whether each conclusion is well-grounded and whether on an overall basis the pieces fit together better than any suggested alternative.

 

So as to your statements about Rhaegar possibly thinking Viserys (or Rhaegar himself) is the third head. My point was that at that moment in the vision, he could not have been thinking that point because then he would have all three heads already -- he would not state that there must be one more. If you are suggesting that Rhaegar might have concluded after the time of the HotU scene that maybe V is the third head -- I simply think that there really is nothing in the text to suggest that in the slightest. The "clue" is that Rhaegar appears to be consciously taking a huge risk to go off with Lyanna and have a child. Maybe it is completely unrelated, but chances are it is not -- and if not, then Rhaegar was trying to create the third head. Do I know that for a fact? No, of course not. Is it the theory most consistent with all the clues and explain why GRRM gives us various pieces of information? I would contend, yes, which is why it is the best working theory (IMHO).

 

I am not trying to contend that my theory is the only possibility. I only contend that it is the strongest in terms of explaining the most and being the most consistent with all available clues. So I don't contend that Rhaegar's motives can be conclusively determined. I merely contend that concluding that Rhaegar's motives were to create the third head explains more than any other theory and is most consistent with the available evidence. 

 

Now I admit that in some places in the post you were responding to, I used the word "know" when what I really meant is "can logically conclude from other clues which allows us to reason regarding additional clues." Specifically, in talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna getting married, I said that we "know" that Rhaegar was trying to create a dragon. What I meant is that logically, we should be able to conclude that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna to create the third head of the dragon because it fits the evidence the best and explains how all the available clues fit together the best. And that once the conclusion is made that Rhaegar is trying to create the third dragon (in part because Elia can have no more children), logic also would dictate that to be a full-blown dragon, Rhaegar likely would think that Lyanna and he need to be married. This conclusion also explains, in part, why GRRM gave us the information about Targs practicing polygamy in the past.

 

Like any progression of logical reasoning, if any one link in the chain breaks, the entire chain is at risk. I get that and never thought otherwise. My point, again for the umpteenth time, is come up with an alternative that is more consistent with the clues and explains as much in terms of why GRRM gave us the clues he did, and I will change my mind. I never meant to assert that each of these points can be proven with a level of certainty that would hold up in court, for example. But I still think my theory (or more accurately, the theory I promote, as I did not really come up with most of the theory) is a pretty good working theory and better than the alternatives I have heard.

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How do you make such conclusion? In Ned's dream when asked about sack of KL, KG tell they were "far away". Of course, TOJ is far from KL, but it's a subtle distinction between "far away" and "here". I'd say it's very likely they were somewhere else.

 

While the tower of joy and a multitude of other locations qualify as "far away," have you considered that some of the current occupants of the tower could have been elsewhere, while others stayed at the tower the whole time? A popular idea many years ago was that Rhaegar sent some of the Kingsguard on mission(s) while Lyanna remained at the Tower with at least one of the sworn brothers. It is all wild speculation to place them elsewhere, but Rhaegar could have need of allies, so a mission to the Free Cities to negotiate help would certainly fit. A mission to the Golden Company to rally all Targaryens to a common cause? To bring back Blackfyre? On and on the speculation goes based on what people think qualifies as "far away." Nothing yet to back it up. 

 

Of course, if one thinks Ned's dream is just a dream, then "far away" could be just Ned's description of how these men were far away from where he expected them, and he continues to wrestle in his dreams for the reasons why they are where he finds them. Then "far away" is Ned's phrase, not Ser Gerold's.

 

Edit: Unmasked Lurker, read your post after finishing this one. No problems, and thanks for the clarification.

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While the tower of joy and a multitude of other locations qualify as "far away," have you considered that some of the current occupants of the tower could have been elsewhere, while others stayed at the tower the whole time? A popular idea many years ago was that Rhaegar sent some of the Kingsguard on mission(s) while Lyanna remained at the Tower with at least one of the sworn brothers. It is all wild speculation to place them elsewhere, but Rhaegar could have need of allies, so a mission to the Free Cities to negotiate help would certainly fit. A mission to the Golden Company to rally all Targaryens to a common cause? To bring back Blackfyre? On and on the speculation goes based on what people think qualifies as "far away." Nothing yet to back it up. 

 

Of course, if one thinks Ned's dream is just a dream, then "far away" could be just Ned's description of how these men were far away from where he expected them, and he continues to wrestle in his dreams for the reasons why they are where he finds them. Then "far away" is Ned's phrase, not Ser Gerold's.

 

Edit: Unmasked Lurker, read your post after finishing this one. No problems, and thanks for the clarification.

 

Three of them were ordered by Rhaegar to stay there to guard Lyanna when he returned. 

They said they were "far away" from Trident battle. 

Really, it is a very very wild guess to say they were sent across sea to do something. 

Technically we can say Rhaegar sent them to Mars to look for the help of aliens. 

The truth is, Rhaegar ran to tower of Joy and stayed there to have joy with Lyanna to have a baby. 

That is it. 

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Three of them were ordered by Rhaegar to stay there to guard Lyanna when he returned. 

They said they were "far away" from Trident battle. 

Really, it is a very very wild guess to say they were sent across sea to do something. 

Technically we can say Rhaegar sent them to Mars to look for the help of aliens. 

The truth is, Rhaegar ran to tower of Joy and stayed there to have joy with Lyanna to have a baby. 

That is it. 

 

I wish I was as confident of what the "truth" is in all of this. Yes, as I said, the idea that some of the men where sent on mission is only speculation, but that does not mean it shouldn't be considered. Ideas that make us think beyond the little box we find ourselves in can often be of help even if we don't agree with all of them.

 

And then there is the idea that the dialogue in question is just a fevered dream of Ned's and shouldn't be taken literally. That idea actually has a lot to support it, including the author's own caution. I think (notice that phrase please, and note that it isn't "I know" or "the truth is") we are likely looking at something in between. It makes sense for Ned to have had a conversation with the Kingsguard, but his dream doesn't have to reflect the actual words as they happened. The scene is likely influenced by Ned's own problems and feelings of guilt in understanding why it came to combat and why all the men had to die.

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If they got new orders from Robert would they follow those?

They say Robert is a usurper. It seems clear to me that they know of claimant(s) with greater claims than Robert's. They go on to say that going to Viserys would be fleeing, and that the Kingsguard do not flee from their duty. They swore a vow to protect and defend the king with their lives. They gave their lives at the tower, and it is likely that the heir with the greatest claim was present at the tower. No, they won't consider Robert's orders as coming from the king, if that is what you meant. ;)

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They say Robert is a usurper. It seems clear to me that they know of claimant(s) with greater claims than Robert's. They go on to say that going to Viserys would be fleeing, and that the Kingsguard do not flee from their duty. They swore a vow to protect and defend the king with their lives. They gave their lives at the tower, and it is likely that the heir with the greatest claim was present at the tower. No, they won't consider Robert's orders as coming from the king, if that is what you meant. ;)

 

They were there because Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna. mad king did not order them to do this.  

KG did not have authority to decide who is the best heir to the throne. They are not grand council. 

Honestly Aerys already disinherited Aegon and named Viserys his heir after rhaegar died. 

"do not Flee" means "they do not want to flee from their enemy and hide in a safe place like what another knight did with Rhaella and Viserys. "

They are honorable knights and they do not flee from a fighting as a coward. 

KG were loyal to royal family so they followed Rhaegar's last command, to protect his mistress and bastard. 

KG is not the indicator of the presence of King. 

Before the birth they even did not have any idea if it would be a girl or boy or stillborn. 

But they guarded there for a very long time. 

They just followed Rhaegar's command. That is it. 

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Rheagar ran off with Lyanna due to love and/or prophecy, not due to his father's wrath or suspicion. 

 

There was a slim chance that even mad King was on board with Rhaegar's prophecy plan. 

So he was not surprised about Rhaegar's missing or Lyanna stuff. 

He let his son stay out for a long time to fulfill his purpose. Only when necessary, he called him back.  

But this one was much less likely to happen. Though possible. 

 

I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar had hindsight with regards to his Father's "wrath" to Lyanna.  This is because Rhaegar found out that that tKotLT wasn't a man, but the girl, Lyanna.  He didn't blame his Father, but nonetheless, didn't volunteer the information that Lyanna was knight as well and would not want to risk angering his Father.

 

There were moments where Aerys may have come back to his sanity and hearkened back to his heart to search for his son.  He sent Gerold to find him before it's too late.  Aerys knew that the realm, at least the loyalist, love Rhaegar and would fight along side him.  

 

Thus he placed Rhaegar in command of the royal host as the defender of the realm (from a threatening domestic threat).

 

 

Before the birth they even did not have any idea if it would be a girl or boy or stillborn

 

The 3KGs were in agreement, that they swore a vow.  They heard the King, Prince and the heir apparent (Aegon) is dead.

 

If they knew that Viserys was named as the heir to the throne they would have left the tower and go look for him (if they didn't know that Dragonstone was where he went).

 

Their vows to guard a mistress Lyanna and a bastard born do not trump their oath and duty to protect a royal heir (Viserys).

 

Then we have them pumping their chests in agreement that Viserys is not king, by virtue of saying Ser Darry is not Kingsguard.

 

This rule out Viserys as heir and worthy to be protected by them 3.

 

The only way this make sense is that the 3KG have someone in the tower that dictate their oath and duty to be there.  Someone that is of higher claimant of their sworn duties as Kingsguard.  That is baby Jon, who in their eyes is the true heir.

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They were there because Rhaegar ordered them to guard Lyanna. mad king did not order them to do this.  
KG did not have authority to decide who is the best heir to the throne. They are not grand council. 
Honestly Aerys already disinherited Aegon and named Viserys his heir after rhaegar died. 
"do not Flee" means "they do not want to flee from their enemy and hide in a safe place like what another knight did with Rhaella and Viserys. "
They are honorable knights and they do not flee from a fighting as a coward. 
KG were loyal to royal family so they followed Rhaegar's last command, to protect his mistress and bastard. 
KG is not the indicator of the presence of King. 
Before the birth they even did not have any idea if it would be a girl or boy or stillborn. 
But they guarded there for a very long time. 
They just followed Rhaegar's command. That is it.

Dayne and Whent were assigned as Rhaegar's bodyguards by King Aerys. They were ordered to follow Rhaegar's orders as if they came from Aerys himself. That explains why they were with Rhaegar instead of with Aerys at King's Landing.

Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar to have him return to King's Landing. Rhaegar does not travel without his bodyguards, especially in a war zone, which exists between the Tower and King's Landing. This conveniently forces Hightower to remain at the Tower while Rhaegar, Dayne and Whent depart for King's Landing. Hightower must remain to ensure the safety of Lyanna.

At some point, before Aerys can learn of their arrival and send a command for Dayne or Whent to report to him, and answer his questions about where and what Rhaegar has been up to, Rhaegar feels safe enough to send Dayne and Whent back to the tower. (Perhaps he even knows the date that Lyanna will deliver, and suggests a route that will have them arrive near that date.)

So, yes, they were ordered to guard Lyanna, by Rhaegar. Rhaegar had the king's authority to order Dayne and Whent. Rhaegar used circumstances to keep Hightower from returning to the king, before the birth, but Hightower had been ordered to do something else. That something else led to him being trapped into a situation to guard Lyanna, but it was not specifically ordered.

Back to why they are present when Ned arrives. They say that it is BECAUSE of their vow that they will not flee. It is Ned's dream, and we know what Ned thinks of the Kingsguard's vow, he states it to Robert. They swear a vow to protect their king with their own lives. (I always find it very interesting that Whent is on a knee when Ned arrives.)

ETA: Fleeing with Rhaella and Viserys was at the king's command, but the Kingsguard would not follow that command, they would stay to protect the king. Now, they specifically exclude Robert as king, and deny Viserys is king, or Rhaella queen, they would be fleeing from their duty to leave the tower. You should read at the tower of joy in my signature. ;)

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I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar had hindsight with regards to his Father's "wrath" to Lyanna.  This is because Rhaegar found out that that tKotLT wasn't a man, but the girl, Lyanna.  He didn't blame his Father, but nonetheless, didn't volunteer the information that Lyanna was knight as well and would not want to risk angering his Father.

 

There were moments where Aerys may have come back to his sanity and hearkened back to his heart to search for his son.  He sent Gerold to find him before it's too late.  Aerys knew that the realm, at least the loyalist, love Rhaegar and would fight along side him.  

 

Thus he placed Rhaegar in command of the royal host as the defender of the realm (from a threatening domestic threat).

 

True. that is why Rhaegar came back to say he missed the knight and did not know who he was. 

He wanted to protect Lyanna from his father's wrath. In fact this is not hindsight, Mad King was already unhappy with the KOLT. 

Although it is hard to understand that why Rhaegar wanted to put Lyanna into focus by crowning her publicly.

that is why I thought he was driven by his sudden love in Lyanna and then did a jerkish mistake to show his love.

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They say Robert is a usurper. It seems clear to me that they know of claimant(s) with greater claims than Robert's. They go on to say that going to Viserys would be fleeing, and that the Kingsguard do not flee from their duty. They swore a vow to protect and defend the king with their lives. They gave their lives at the tower, and it is likely that the heir with the greatest claim was present at the tower. No, they won't consider Robert's orders as coming from the king, if that is what you meant. ;)


Jon would not have been the heir or king. He was bastard or at best second in line. They appear to not know what is happening in the realm until Ned starts his questioning. No where does Ned mention little Aegon being killed who would have been the King - if you discount Viscerys. There is no evidence a baby was even there. Arthur Dayne could have sent the baby to Starfall for safety and they are only there for Lyanna. The baby would have been born months before ned even showed up. Plenty of time to get the "king" to a more seure location. Ned's trip across Dorne makes more sense if he was going to Starfall to pick up his nephew rather than returning a sword.

Regardless of their "vows", Ned is the very person Lyanna would turn to being both her beloved brother and liege lord. Winterfell sounds like a much safer place than some Tower in the middle of the Marches. Could they not have "defended the king" and let a high lord see his dying sister who someone conveniently expired just as he got there.

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Jon would not have been the heir or king. He was bastard or at best second in line. They appear to not know what is happening in the realm until Ned starts his questioning. No where does Ned mention little Aegon being killed who would have been the King - if you discount Viscerys. There is no evidence a baby was even there. Arthur Dayne could have sent the baby to Starfall for safety and they are only there for Lyanna. The baby would have been born months before ned even showed up. Plenty of time to get the "king" to a more seure location. Ned's trip across Dorne makes more sense if he was going to Starfall to pick up his nephew rather than returning a sword.

Regardless of their "vows", Ned is the very person Lyanna would turn to being both her beloved brother and liege lord. Winterfell sounds like a much safer place than some Tower in the middle of the Marches. Could they not have "defended the king" and let a high lord see his dying sister who someone conveniently expired just as he got there.

 

Because Rhaegar and Lyanna married.  Lyanna was royalty and the baby boy was directly in line behind Aegon.

 

It is the only way to explain the 3KGs staunch actions at the tower.  They would not leave Viserys (knowing that his name was not mentioned during the sack as being dead), to be left alone, below guarding a mistress and a bastard.  

 

At the very least, Gerold, would volunteer himself or risk fighting the 2 other Kingsguard to look for Viserys, if they didn't hear where he went to.  

 

But when confronted by Ned, they were very sure that they were keeping their Kingsguard vows to the fullest, that even offered to go to PRINCE Viserys (who should be the next heir after Rhaegar and Aegon being dead), the 3KGs stayed and proudly declared that they swore a vow (as Kingsguard).

 

Someone in that tower has a higher claim to their oath and duty.  That is Jon.

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I'm of the opinion that Rhaegar had hindsight with regards to his Father's "wrath" to Lyanna.  This is because Rhaegar found out that that tKotLT wasn't a man, but the girl, Lyanna.  He didn't blame his Father, but nonetheless, didn't volunteer the information that Lyanna was knight as well and would not want to risk angering his Father.

 

There were moments where Aerys may have come back to his sanity and hearkened back to his heart to search for his son.  He sent Gerold to find him before it's too late.  Aerys knew that the realm, at least the loyalist, love Rhaegar and would fight along side him.  

 

Thus he placed Rhaegar in command of the royal host as the defender of the realm (from a threatening domestic threat).

 
 

 

The 3KGs were in agreement, that they swore a vow.  They heard the King, Prince and the heir apparent (Aegon) is dead.

 

If they knew that Viserys was named as the heir to the throne they would have left the tower and go look for him (if they didn't know that Dragonstone was where he went).

 

Their vows to guard a mistress Lyanna and a bastard born do not trump their oath and duty to protect a royal heir (Viserys).

 

Then we have them pumping their chests in agreement that Viserys is not king, by virtue of saying Ser Darry is not Kingsguard.

 

This rule out Viserys as heir and worthy to be protected by them 3.

 

The only way this make sense is that the 3KG have someone in the tower that dictate their oath and duty to be there.  Someone that is of higher claimant of their sworn duties as Kingsguard.  That is baby Jon, who in their eyes is the true heir.

 

Sorry I did not get your point very clearly. 

If Areys named Viserys as his heir, then he is the rightful heir no matter how many children Rhaegar had. 

KG could not simply decide by themselves that Jon is the heir if Aerys the king said Viserys is his heir. 

You can only say they did not know Viserys was already named as the heir. 

But again, it looked like they did know what was going on in the KL.

 

KG followed the order of Rhaegar to guard over Lyanna, this happened long time before Jon was born. 

KG were there to fulfill the last order of their prince. Their prince was dead but they were loyal to his last will. 

If they had to be somewhere close to king, they should just discard the order of Rhaegar and ran to the battle of Trident.

KG could be anywhere if their lord asked them to go there. It is not necessary to have a king inside.  

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The KG protect and obey the king. It is up to the king to decide whether KG protection is extended to other members of the royal family.

Same for obeying orders. I think, that if Aerys had ordered his KG to obey orders from Rhaegar as well as his own, the KG would have to obey orders from Rhaegar, as long as they didn't go against anything Aerys ordered them to do

Dayne and Whent were assigned as Rhaegar's bodyguards by King Aerys. They were ordered to follow Rhaegar's orders as if they came from Aerys himself. That explains why they were with Rhaegar instead of with Aerys at King's Landing.

Do we have a quote stating this?

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Jon would not have been the heir or king. He was bastard or at best second in line. They appear to not know what is happening in the realm until Ned starts his questioning. No where does Ned mention little Aegon being killed who would have been the King - if you discount Viscerys. There is no evidence a baby was even there. Arthur Dayne could have sent the baby to Starfall for safety and they are only there for Lyanna. The baby would have been born months before ned even showed up. Plenty of time to get the "king" to a more seure location. Ned's trip across Dorne makes more sense if he was going to Starfall to pick up his nephew rather than returning a sword.

Regardless of their "vows", Ned is the very person Lyanna would turn to being both her beloved brother and liege lord. Winterfell sounds like a much safer place than some Tower in the middle of the Marches. Could they not have "defended the king" and let a high lord see his dying sister who someone conveniently expired just as he got there.

I basically agree with IceFire's response to this post but will add a few additional points. You seem to assume a few facts where there is decent evidence in the other direction. Specifically, you assume that the KG would know that Viserys was named as the new heir -- you suggest that that Jon was a bastard and that the KG would not know that Aegon is dead. You also assume that Jon was born months before Ned shows up. I tend to believe all of these assumptions are wrong. 

 

I think there is reasonable evidence to support the following:  (1) the KG knew about the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon before Ned arrived; (2) the KG had no knowledge that Aerys named Viserys as the new heir; (3) Lyanna gave birth less than a month prior to Ned arriving and possibly even much closer than that (3-10 days seems plausible if Lyanna died of puerperal fever); and (4) if the baby had been sent to Starfall, the KG still would be keeping him safe by staying at ToJ to avoid drawing attention to his importance and when Ned arrives, keeping Lyanna from disclosing the location to Ned.

 

The KG do not have a primary obligation to Lyanna -- but to their King. Lyanna might trust Ned (or might not), but the KG are not going to trust Ned. Any notion that the KG would a risk of allowing Ned to talk to Lyanna misunderstands how the KG perceive their duties. They are not sentimental and do not take risks with the life of their king. Allowing Ned to talk to Lyanna requires one or both of those behaviors from the KG.

 

Now, you are free to disagree with these conclusions -- but they match the behavior of the KG and Ned better than the alternatives that you have suggested (or that others have suggested).

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