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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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Because Rhaegar and Lyanna married.  Lyanna was royalty and the baby boy was directly in line behind Aegon.

 

It is the only way to explain the 3KGs staunch actions at the tower.  They would not leave Viserys (knowing that his name was not mentioned during the sack as being dead), to be left alone, below guarding a mistress and a bastard.  

 

At the very least, Gerold, would volunteer himself or risk fighting the 2 other Kingsguard to look for Viserys, if they didn't hear where he went to.  

 

But when confronted by Ned, they were very sure that they were keeping their Kingsguard vows to the fullest, that even offered to go to PRINCE Viserys (who should be the next heir after Rhaegar and Aegon being dead), the 3KGs stayed and proudly declared that they swore a vow (as Kingsguard).

 

Someone in that tower has a higher claim to their oath and duty.  That is Jon.

 

Ned did not mention anything about little Aegon and Elia. Even KG could ignore Viserys (although Aerys named him as heir already), they needed to go tcheck about Aegon and Elia by your logic because Aegon was the true heir. If you say KG only knew Aegon was dead but did not know Viserys was named as heir, this is a bit of stretch. 

 

Moreover, if you said they needed to put the king and heir as their highest priority, then none of them should have stayed in TOJ for one year. 

None of them should have stayed there during the Battle of trident. 

It was confirmed that three of them were there by the order of Rhaegar to guard Lyanna. 

So they did, until their last moment. They would not flee from their duties because of Ned.

KG's oath specifically listed that they could be ordered to protect mistress and bastard. What is the point to add this sentence? Have you seen any other case KG to protect a mistress and bastard, in the whole history of westeros? if you know, let me know please. 

 

It is a overstretch to assume they were married. 

You say you were married, this does not mean other people would agree, especially if you already had a wife and two children.

Rhaegar loved Lyanna and also thought the baby would be very important, so he ordered them to be there to guard over Lyanna. 

This was so clear, how come some people would imagine they were married by just seeing three KG stay there.

They stayed there per the order of Rhaegar (this was confirmed by APP)

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Sorry I did not get your point very clearly. 

If Areys named Viserys as his heir, then he is the rightful heir no matter how many children Rhaegar had. 

KG could not simply decide by themselves that Jon is the heir if Aerys the king said Viserys is his heir. 

You can only say they did not know Viserys was already named as the heir. 

But again, it looked like they did know what was going on in the KL.

 

KG followed the order of Rhaegar to guard over Lyanna, this happened long time before Jon was born. 

KG were there to fulfill the last order of their prince. Their prince was dead but they were loyal to his last will. 

If they had to be somewhere close to king, they should just discard the order of Rhaegar and ran to the battle of Trident.

KG could be anywhere if their lord asked them to go there. It is not necessary to have a king inside.  

Knowing about the "big events" at KL (like deaths of Aerys and Aegon) does not necessarily suggest they knew about the naming of Viserys. We know nothing about the details of this event -- as it is based on an "off-hand" comment in WOIAF that V was the new heir. There are many reasons that the KG would have a source that would communicate about the royal deaths but might not know about V being named heir.

 

Based on the words and behavior of the KG, the conclusion that they are guarding who they think is the rightful "King" is the best fit for the clues. At the time of the Battle of Trident, there was no reason to cease following Rhaegar's orders. Aerys had KG protection and was apparently safe in RK. Rhaegar clearly did not want them at Trident. They would stay at ToJ. Only the death of Aerys brought a problem to the KG -- only at that time might they have a conflict between ensuring that the rightful heir had KG protection and that Rhaegar's last orders were followed. If there truly was a conflict, it makes no sense that all 3 would stay at ToJ and not send at least one to V. And the conversation with Ned strongly suggests the KG do not think V is King. So the best fit for the evidence is that the KG think someone else is King. The only viable candidate is Jon.

 

Once again, we are back to the basic "Team Obey" vs. "Team Protect" argument. I don't know how many different ways those of us on Team Protect can explain that obeying a dead princes orders simply cannot supersede the need to ensure the rightful heir has some KG protection. The entire purpose of the KG is made irrelevant if they feel no obligation to send at least one KG to V to provide proper protection if they consider V to be the rightful King. Orders from Rhaegar that were made prior to the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon and the deaths, incapacity or betrayal of the other KG simply cannot be sufficient to justify sticking around ToJ and making no attempt to get to V -- unless V is not who they think is King and the only other viable candidate is Jon. So logically, they must not know about the naming of V as new heir.

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Posted this on some other R+L=J threads and someone pm'd me and suggested I put it here. I'll try to make it as clear as I can.

Concerning Ned's actions in regards to Jon: We know that Ned returns to WF after the war with two (at least) very interesting things, Lyanna's bones and Jon. Ned admits to having cheated on Cat and fathering Jon but refuses to name the mother. Multiple theories have sprung up suggesting who Jon's mother (and in many cases real father) is. 

 

If Ned+any female=J THEN Ned should just name the mother. Unless the mother was married or somehow managed to hide her pregnancy from her family then Ned accomplishes nothing by not naming her. He may choose to hide who in order to avoid dishonoring them, but in the case of Ashara she's dead and in the case of any other women, her pregnancy should be known. In fact admitting the father is Lord of Winterfell might lessen the dishonor to her. And by not naming the mother he puts Jon and by extension himself and his family at risk.

 

If Ashara+Brandon=J then why not just admit it? What does he gain by lying? He upsets Cat and puts the family at risk for no obvious reason. He could just admit Jon is his nephew and wants to raise him.

 

If Ashara+any male other than N or B=J then why even bring Jon to WF let alone lie about being the dad? What does Ned gain by this? Again, he's putting his whole family at risk and causes problems with his wife by having him there.

 

I think that pretty much sums up the possible parents. So how is having Jon at WF a threat to Ned and his whole family?

 

Well even though no one appears to have connected the dots, the events that are common knowledge are enough that it would be possible for someone to at least suspect Jon is Rheagar and Lyanna's child. Everyone "knows" R and L were together and sexing. Sexing often leads to babies. Ned shows up with Lyanna's body and a baby. Someone really should have wondered about that connection. Their are plenty of people who would have had an interest in seeing any R+L baby killed or in their custody: Tywin, Cersei, Robert, Varys, Illyrio, Doran all would have had an interest in a potential R+L baby. Again, the fact that no one does suspect does not mean that no one could have suspected.

 

So Ned's actions are only supported by R+L=J:

 

Even if Lyanna's promise wasn't to protect Jon, Ned would have wanted to and had reason to. He had just come from KL and seen what happened to the other Targaryen children. So he can't admit the baby is L's without giving away it's R's and putting J at risk.

 

Ned has to commit an act of dishonor, by lying. So he creates the lie that is the least dishonorable. By saying J is his, Ned creates both a reason to have J and takes L out of the equation (and thus R as well).

 

But Ned will not further the lie and name a mother, especially since doing so would dishonor an innocent woman. This fits with his character.

 

I apologize if this is confusing and will provide any clarification if I can.

 

So thoughts anyone?

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Ned did not mention anything about little Aegon and Elia. Even KG could ignore Viserys (although Aerys named him as heir already), they needed to go tcheck about Aegon and Elia by your logic because Aegon was the true heir. If you say KG only knew Aegon was dead but did not know Viserys was named as heir, this is a bit of stretch. 

 

Moreover, if you said they needed to put the king and heir as their highest priority, then none of them should have stayed in TOJ for one year. 

None of them should have stayed there during the Battle of trident. 

It was confirmed that three of them were there by the order of Rhaegar to guard Lyanna. 

So they did, until their last moment. They would not flee from their duties because of Ned.

KG's oath specifically listed that they could be ordered to protect mistress and bastard. What is the point to add this sentence? Have you seen any other case KG to protect a mistress and bastard, in the whole history of westeros? if you know, let me know please. 

 

Aegon being dead is inferred.  It is the only way for Lyanna to have fear in her eyes as she waits for Ned to give her the promise.  She knew what happened to Rhaegar's other children, butchered by the Lannisters.  

 

Robert is now the king, according to Ned, but the Kingsguard declare him as a usuper and not their king.

 

Prince Viserys is at Dragonstone, Ned gave the 3KGs excuse to go and leave the tower to protect a royal and by order of heir apparent as the next in line (since Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon is dead).

 

But the 3KGs did not go, they proclaimed that they are keeping their vow as Kingsguard.

 

Pride, duty and oath of keeping a dead prince's order to protect Lyanna and a bastard child does not supplant their duty to go to Dragonstone, to protect the next heir to the throne, Viserys.  Yet, they stayed, they proclaimed that Darry is not a Kingsguard even though they know that Viserys is at Dragonstone with no protection from a Kingsguard.

 

It doesn't make sense, unless someone living in that tower has a higher claim of their oath and duty of Kingsguard.  And this is not without reason, through out the books, Martin gave subtle hints of Jon being of royal blood, and even... King.

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Ned did not mention anything about little Aegon and Elia. Even KG could ignore Viserys (although Aerys named him as heir already), they needed to go tcheck about Aegon and Elia by your logic because Aegon was the true heir. If you say KG only knew Aegon was dead but did not know Viserys was named as heir, this is a bit of stretch. 

 

Moreover, if you said they needed to put the king and heir as their highest priority, then none of them should have stayed in TOJ for one year. 

None of them should have stayed there during the Battle of trident. 

It was confirmed that three of them were there by the order of Rhaegar to guard Lyanna. 

So they did, until their last moment. They would not flee from their duties because of Ned.

KG's oath specifically listed that they could be ordered to protect mistress and bastard. What is the point to add this sentence? Have you seen any other case KG to protect a mistress and bastard, in the whole history of westeros? if you know, let me know please. 

I think you are missing what IF125 and I have been trying to explain. It is perfectly reasonable to conclude the KG would know about Aegon dying and not Viserys being named heir. The death simply happened -- Aegon is dead and people sending war news from KL would report on the deaths of the royals. We know nothing about the circumstances of V being named heir -- it is an off-hand comment in WOIAF. There are many reasons this news might not have gotten to KG at ToJ even if the news of the death of Aegon got to them. You say it is a bit of a stretch -- but I disagree. One is an event that occurred -- a death. The other is an official action that might or might not have been made public or been widely known -- we just don't know (and no, I am not saying it was secret -- just that it might not have been widely publicized for a variety of reasons).

 

And it is not just that the King is the highest priority (although he is), but that after the deaths of the other royals and the deaths/incapacity/betrayal of other KG, if V was now the rightful Targ King, these changed circumstances would require some response from the KG at ToJ. Like when Selmy tells Ned that going to Joffrey's side is now his duty -- Ned stops Selmy and Selmy must obey Ned under the circumstances. Ned's orders were specific orders at that time from the person allowed to speak in the name of the King. But in general, at the time of the death of a King, the LC (which is Hightower at that time) needs to arrange for the next King to have protection right away. But instead the KG at ToJ say that going to V would be fleeing. Obeying orders from Rhaegar cannot cause sending at least one KG to the new King to be fleeing -- it makes no sense and is not plausible (talk about a stretch). Rhaegar's old orders to guard the tower are not like Ned's specific orders not to go to Joffrey. Rhaegar is dead and circumstances dramatically changed since the orders were given. The default action would be to send at least one KG to V -- but they don't. If obeying Rhaegar's orders is not enough to justify that action (as I believe it is not), then the only explanation left is that they don't think V is king -- they think Jon is.

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Knowing about the "big events" at KL (like deaths of Aerys and Aegon) does not necessarily suggest they knew about the naming of Viserys. We know nothing about the details of this event -- as it is based on an "off-hand" comment in WOIAF that V was the new heir. There are many reasons that the KG would have a source that would communicate about the royal deaths but might not know about V being named heir.

 

Based on the words and behavior of the KG, the conclusion that they are guarding who they think is the rightful "King" is the best fit for the clues. At the time of the Battle of Trident, there was no reason to cease following Rhaegar's orders. Aerys had KG protection and was apparently safe in RK. Rhaegar clearly did not want them at Trident. They would stay at ToJ. Only the death of Aerys brought a problem to the KG -- only at that time might they have a conflict between ensuring that the rightful heir had KG protection and that Rhaegar's last orders were followed. If there truly was a conflict, it makes no sense that all 3 would stay at ToJ and not send at least one to V. And the conversation with Ned strongly suggests the KG do not think V is King. So the best fit for the evidence is that the KG think someone else is King. The only viable candidate is Jon.

 

Once again, we are back to the basic "Team Obey" vs. "Team Protect" argument. I don't know how many different ways those of us on Team Protect can explain that obeying a dead princes orders simply cannot supersede the need to ensure the rightful heir has some KG protection. The entire purpose of the KG is made irrelevant if they feel no obligation to send at least one KG to V to provide proper protection if they consider V to be the rightful King. Orders from Rhaegar that were made prior to the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon and the deaths, incapacity or betrayal of the other KG simply cannot be sufficient to justify sticking around ToJ and making no attempt to get to V -- unless V is not who they think is King and the only other viable candidate is Jon. So logically, they must not know about the naming of V as new heir.

 

You gave KG too much flexibility and freedom to make judgement and give order to themselves. 

They only had to obey whatever order their lord gave them. They are warriors and guards. they need to follow the order without any judgement. 

Rhaegar ordered them to stay and make sure Lyanna is safe. 

They need to fulfill this order. This is their duty to guard Lyanna. Rhaegar's death did not invalidate this order. 

If they ran away to check about viserys then they broke the obedience of this order and left this duty ruined. They do not want to break the oath by discarding the order of their beloved prince. 

In summary, They followed the order they received and would not discard it due to Rhaegar's death or ned's group, they can not judge the situation to decide who is the potential heir and gave some order to themselves. That is what Jiame did and he broke the vow. 

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You gave KG too much flexibility and freedom to make judgement and give order to themselves. 

They only had to obey whatever order their lord gave them. They are warriors and guards. they need to follow the order without any judgement. 

Rhaegar ordered them to stay and make sure Lyanna is safe. 

They need to fulfill this order. This is their duty to guard Lyanna. Rhaegar's death did not invalidate this order. 

If they ran away to check about viserys then they broke the obedience of this order and left this duty ruined. They do not want to break the oath by discarding the order of their beloved prince. 

In summary, They followed the order they received and would not discard it due to Rhaegar's death or ned's group, they can not judge the situation to decide who is the potential heir and gave some order to themselves. That is what Jiame did and he broke the vow. 

 

Upon Aerys death Rhaegar becomes King. Upon Rhaegar's death Aegon becomes King. IF R+L=J is true AND Rhaegar made Jon legitimate in some way then upon Aegon's death Jon would become King. So the KG are protecting the new King. At the moment it's something only those 3 KG knew and so they wouldn't have reason to go check on Viserys. Even had they known Viserys was named King, it could be seen as a moot point since they know an heir of Rhaegar is alive inside the tower and should be the rightful King.

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Upon Aerys death Rhaegar becomes King. Upon Rhaegar's death Aegon becomes King. IF R+L=J is true AND Rhaegar made Jon legitimate in some way then upon Aegon's death Jon would become King. So the KG are protecting the new King. At they moment it's something only those 3 KG knew and so they wouldn't have reason to go check on Viserys. Even had they known Viserys was named King, it could be seen as a moot point since they know an heir of Rhaegar is alive inside the tower and should be the rightful King.

 

Rhaegar died before Aerys. He was never a true king, not even for one single minute. 

He did not have power to marry secretly with Lyanna or name Jon as his legitimate son. He had to ask a permission from king and faith and would likely receive a big "no". Otherwise why do you think he needs to run away and hide in the first place?

 

He could possibly tell KG this baby would be very important for the world and in the future I would make him legitimate by talking with my dad, or even I will try to persuade the faith to recognize this marriage, something like this. But he could not make it as a lawful marriage and legitimate heir by himself. 

With his death, nobody could make Jon as an legitimate heir, at least at that moment.

How come KG decide Jon is the legal king at that moment? Are they the faith or king or the Grand Council?

They are just the soldiers of the royal family and their duty was to obey the order they received.

 

Here is what Jiame said after he received a order from Rhaegar:

 

"When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

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Regarding the battle at the TOJ (assuming Ned's feverish dream was somewhat accurate)

Is it safe to assume that the KG were defending jon so fiercely because they had received word of Rhaegars offspring in KL?

Even Accepting R+L= J it still seems weird that the KG would feel they need to protect Jon and lyanna from ned, Unless they thought that the rebels were deliberately on a targ genocide

Any theories around similar to this?

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You gave KG too much flexibility and freedom to make judgement and give order to themselves. 

They only had to obey whatever order their lord gave them. They are warriors and guards. they need to follow the order without any judgement. 

Rhaegar ordered them to stay and make sure Lyanna is safe. 

They need to fulfill this order. This is their duty to guard Lyanna. Rhaegar's death did not invalidate this order. 

If they ran away to check about viserys then they broke the obedience of this order and left this duty ruined. They do not want to break the oath by discarding the order of their beloved prince. 

In summary, They followed the order they received and would not discard it due to Rhaegar's death or ned's group, they can not judge the situation to decide who is the potential heir and gave some order to themselves. That is what Jiame did and he broke the vow. 

I disagree. When Robert dies, Selmy states that his obligation is to go and guard Joffrey. No one gives him these orders and presumably he had been obeying other orders at the time. Now Ned countermands that obligation by giving a specific order not to go to Joffrey. But that situation is completely different -- Ned speaks with the voice of the King at that time and is allowed to give such a specific order to Selmy and he must obey. But an order from a dead prince to guard the tower cannot overcome the duty to send someone to the new king on the death of the old king. Rheagar does not have that authority and more important, there has been a death of the King in the interim -- creating a new duty to get protection to the new King (as Selmy states to Ned). At at minimum, if they saw a conflict in their duties, Hightower (as LC) would arrange for at least one to go the V and others to stay at ToJ. Keeping all 3 at ToJ when the new King is without KG is not plausible -- no matter what orders Rhaegar gave before his death.

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Regarding the battle at the TOJ (assuming Ned's feverish dream was somewhat accurate)

Is it safe to assume that the KG were defending jon so fiercely because they had received word of Rhaegars offspring in KL?

Even Accepting R+L= J still seems weird that the KG was feel they need to protect Jon and lyanna from ned, Unless they thought that the rebels were deliberately on a targ genocide

Any theories around similar to this?

 

They probably know. 

It looks like they are not surprised by any news Ned brought. 

But of course maybe they are just very good to control their own feelings. 

It can be either way. Know or not. 

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You gave KG too much flexibility and freedom to make judgement and give order to themselves. 

They only had to obey whatever order their lord gave them. They are warriors and guards. they need to follow the order without any judgement. 

Rhaegar ordered them to stay and make sure Lyanna is safe. 

They need to fulfill this order. This is their duty to guard Lyanna. Rhaegar's death did not invalidate this order. 

If they ran away to check about viserys then they broke the obedience of this order and left this duty ruined. They do not want to break the oath by discarding the order of their beloved prince. 

In summary, They followed the order they received and would not discard it due to Rhaegar's death or ned's group, they can not judge the situation to decide who is the potential heir and gave some order to themselves. That is what Jiame did and he broke the vow. 

 

Kingsguard are not mindless individuals, besides showing martial fighting abilities, they are to act on discretion and wisdom.  Gerold is probably the strictest, by the book Knight that has ever don the white cloak.  He, above Arthur and Oswell, would not put a royal heir (Viserys) below guarding a dead prince's mistress and his bastard.

 

Yet, Gerold must have known, must have gotten the evidence provided by Rhaegar, that Lyanna is his wife and therefore, royalty.  Thus the child of that royal union (whether Gerold agree or not regarding marrying in front of a weirwood) is legitimate.

 

I'm of the opinion that Gerold accepted this as the current status.  When placed on the corner with the sudden news, one after the other, in quick succession, that the King, Prince and his son, Aegon is now dead, he and the other 2 Kingsguard came to the resolution themselves, that they must protect the true heir, Jon.

 

The LC of the Kingsguard have authority to command assignments.

 

Jaime was ordered to guard Aerys while the other 3KGs fight with Rhaegar on the Trident.

 

Gerold without breaking his vows, could order Oswell and/or Arthur to go to Dragonstone or search for Viserys where ever he may have gone.  He could've done this at the moment when the tragic news of the sack reached the tower.

 

The King was dead, thus incapacitated.  Royalty Rhaella and Prince Viserys (the true heir, if baby Jon is a bastard) is no where to be found, no news of their death, thus deserving of protection from at least one.  As the heir, Viserys has a claim to Kingsguards oath and duty.

 

However, this was not the story.  The 3KGs were adamant in their hard stance against Ned and his attempted to parley and negotiate.

 

We can just agree to disagree.

 

You believe they obeyed Rhaegar's order at the cost of leaving Viserys.  I believe their actions were indicative of their duty to protect the true heir, Jon.

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I disagree. When Robert dies, Selmy states that his obligation is to go and guard Joffrey. No one gives him these orders and presumably he had been obeying other orders at the time. Now Ned countermands that obligation by giving a specific order not to go to Joffrey. But that situation is completely different -- Ned speaks with the voice of the King at that time and is allowed to give such a specific order to Selmy and he must obey. But an order from a dead prince to guard the tower cannot overcome the duty to send someone to the new king on the death of the old king. Rheagar does not have that authority and more important, there has been a death of the King in the interim -- creating a new duty to get protection to the new King (as Selmy states to Ned). At at minimum, if they saw a conflict in their duties, Hightower (as LC) would arrange for at least one to go the V and others to stay at ToJ. Keeping all 3 at ToJ when the new King is without KG is not plausible -- no matter what orders Rhaegar gave before his death.

 

Joffrey was very different from Jon. 

Joffery was the rightful and undisputed heir of the king (at least people thought so)

he was the trueborn son of king and queen (people thought so). 

Of course Barri thought he should do so. 

However, Jon was a son out of wedlock unless Rhaegar already decieded to put aside Elia and her children. 

He was very controversial for the iron thrones. 

You think KG can just simply believe he is the rightful king, even Rhaegar had a secret marriage ceremony?

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Kingsguard are not mindless individuals, besides showing martial fighting abilities, they are to act on discretion and wisdom.  Gerold is probably the strictest, by the book Knight that has ever don the white cloak.  He, above Arthur and Oswell, would not put a royal heir (Viserys) below guarding a dead prince's mistress and his bastard.

 

Yet, Gerold must have known, must have gotten the evidence provided by Rhaegar, that Lyanna is his wife and therefore, royalty.  Thus the child of that royal union (whether Gerold agree or not regarding marrying in front of a weirwood) is legitimate.

 

I'm of the opinion that Gerold accepted this as the current status.  When placed on the corner with the sudden news, one after the other, in quick succession, that the King, Prince and his son, Aegon is now dead, he and the other 2 Kingsguard came to the resolution themselves, that they must protect the true heir, Jon.

 

The LC of the Kingsguard have authority to command assignments.

 

Jaime was ordered to guard Aerys while the other 3KGs fight with Rhaegar on the Trident.

 

Gerold without breaking his vows, could order Oswell and/or Arthur to go to Dragonstone or search for Viserys where ever he may have gone.  He could've done this at the moment when the tragic news of the sack reached the tower.

 

The King was dead, thus incapacitated.  Royalty Rhaella and Prince Viserys (the true heir, if baby Jon is a bastard) is no where to be found, no news of their death, thus deserving of protection from at least one.  As the heir, Viserys has a claim to Kingsguards oath and duty.

 

However, this was not the story.  The 3KGs were adamant in their hard stance against Ned and his attempted to parley and negotiate.

 

We can just agree to disagree.

 

You believe they obeyed Rhaegar's order at the cost of leaving Viserys.  I believe their actions were indicative of their duty to protect the true heir, Jon.

 

Of course we should believe our own opinion and agree to disagree.

If Rhaegar was not a married man, I would very happily agree with you. 

But there is the biggest issue. Marriage. 

Rhaegar's biggest problem was that how he could make Jon legitimate by himself. He is not a king. 

 

 

Rhaegar died before Aerys. He was never a true king, not even for one single minute. 

He did not have power to marry secretly with Lyanna or name Jon as his legitimate son. He had to ask a permission from king and faith and would likely receive a big "no". Otherwise why do you think he needs to run away and hide in the first place?

 

He could possibly tell KG this baby would be very important for the world and in the future I would make him legitimate by talking with my dad, or even I will try to persuade the faith to recognize this marriage, something like this. But he could not make it as a lawful marriage and legitimate heir by himself. 

With his death, nobody could make Jon as an legitimate heir, at least at that moment.

How come KG decide Jon is the legal king at that moment? Are they the faith or king or the Grand Council?

They are just the soldiers of the royal family and their duty was to obey the order they received.

 

Here is what Jiame said after he received a order from Rhaegar:

 

"When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey."

 

But of course you can say Rhaegar got an agreement with his dad when he was in KL and asked him to name baby Jon as an legitimate son, then send message to KG then KG knew he is the legit heir. 

this is indeed possible. 

But before that, impossible. 

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Guys I have a question. During Rhaegar's absence would it have been possible for Aerys to consider Viserys his rightful heir? I always thought that the mad king was plotting alongside Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus didn't send after them when they ran off.

Now that I come to think about it though, we know that Aerys and Rhaegar happened to have a relationship together that implied that they weren't really fond of each other. And we know that Aerys was really protective of his son Viserys. He would not come anywhere near Rhaegar's children, complaining about their Dornish smells.

So what do we have:
A king who is rather fond of his younger son, more than he likes his elder one. He dislikes Rhaegar's wife and their children. The throne would pass to Rhaegar's children after he inherits it first..

So when Rhaegar went off Aerys might as well was relieved to hear so, for he now could contrive a plan to give the throne to Vis.

What do you think of it?

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There is no quote for either Arthur or Oswell being Rhaegar's sworn shields assigned to him by Aerys - it is just a more or less plausible theory, and ML is just treating it as fact with his usual overconfidence.

 

In fact, if Aerys had issues with Rhaegar he could have revoked any KG assignments to Rhaegar with a mere word. As long as we don't know what Rhaegar was doing after he set out from Dragonstone - and whether the king was on board with any of that or not - it is actually quite likely that Oswell and Arthur deliberately disobeyed their king by deciding that they would accompany and stay with Rhaegar.

 

UL,

 

if we assume that the knights at the tower had credible information about the Trident and the Sack - that is, information from a firsthand witness - then there is no reason to assume that they did not also know about Aerys' decision to name Viserys his new heir. Aerys would have done that before his death, and any person actually trying to inform the KG about events in KL would definitely apprise them on any changes in the succession and the whereabouts of the royal family - especially considering that he/she wouldn't know anything about Lyanna's child (or the gender of the child) and would most certainly assume that Hightower and the others would want to know who the next king was so that they could continue doing their duty.

 

Robert stuff:

 

Selena,

 

again, back after the Sack Cersei and Tywin are irrelevant. They aren't part of the rebel leadership yet, nor are they part of the royal family. That happens later, so anything Lannister doesn't figure into all that.

 

SFDanny,

 

I just think we cannot be really sure if Robert was such a ruthless ass (or that much obsessed with his honor). I don't see young Robert as a guy who actually command or approve of the murder if Lyanna's children (or Ned's close kin). Robert is essentially a nice guy who doesn't like to antagonize people all that much - if you do him a favor (like Tywin and Jaime did during the Sack) he is not going to punish you for that. That is part of charisma and political program of befriending/pardoning everyone.

 

I'd say disillusioned Robert - a man who is pissed by the fact that he is king and quite aware that everything is going to hell but doesn't care - we later meet has developed a rather strong hatred towards House Targaryen and Rhaegar especially because the loss of Lyanna clearly is also part of the reason why he is stuck in this dreadful marriage with Cersei. The idea that young Robert would have even contemplated ordering the murder of young child doesn't ring true to me.

 

If Lyanna had survived she most likely would have become Robert's wife - widow or rape victim. There was a marriage contract, and if Jon Arryn can marry a despoiled girl so can Robert - especially when he is obsessed with her. But I don't see Robert coming into Lyanna's bet with bits of Jon brain on his fingers, if you get my meaning, so they would have found a way to get the bastard or the legitimate son out of the Wall (Winterfell, the Faith, the Wall, a ward of the Crown, etc.).

 

We don't know what happened to little Prince Maegor, but I very much doubt Egg had Dunk resolve that 'problem' the Tywin-Gregor way.

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Guys I have a question. During Rhaegar's absence would it have been possible for Aerys to consider Viserys his rightful heir? I always thought that the mad king was plotting alongside Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus didn't send after them when they ran off.

Now that I come to think about it though, we know that Aerys and Rhaegar happened to have a relationship together that implied that they weren't really fond of each other. And we know that Aerys was really protective of his son Viserys. He would not come anywhere near Rhaegar's children, complaining about their Dornish smells.

So what do we have:
A king who is rather fond of his younger son, more than he likes his elder one. He dislikes Rhaegar's wife and their children. The throne would pass to Rhaegar's children after he inherits it first..

So when Rhaegar went off Aerys might as well was relieved to hear so, for he now could contrive a plan to give the throne to Vis.

What do you think of it?

 

Areys disinherited Aegon and name viserys his heir only after Rhaegar's death. 

He blamed Leywn for Rhaegar's death and thought Dorne betrayed him. therefore he disinherited Aegon and named Vis. 

Elia's marriage was approved by himself. He may not like her very much but he would not hate her much either. 

He did not like Rhaenys because he (of course) preferred a grandchild with a Targ look. 

Aegon had a Targ look and male so he should be OK with that. 

There is no apparent reason to make me feel that he wanted to disown Rhaegar, much less likely disown him due to his wife. 

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Jon would not have been the heir or king. He was bastard or at best second in line.1 They appear to not know what is happening in the realm until Ned starts his questioning.2 No where does Ned mention little Aegon being killed who would have been the King - if you discount Viscerys.3 There is no evidence a baby was even there.4 Arthur Dayne could have sent the baby to Starfall for safety and they are only there for Lyanna.5 The baby would have been born months before ned even showed up.6 Plenty of time to get the "king" to a more seure location.7 Ned's trip across Dorne makes more sense if he was going to Starfall to pick up his nephew rather than returning a sword.8

Regardless of their "vows", Ned is the very person Lyanna would turn to being both her beloved brother and liege lord. Winterfell sounds like a much safer place than some Tower in the middle of the Marches. Could they not have "defended the king" and let a high lord see his dying sister who someone conveniently expired just as he got there.

  1. There is evidence that Jon was true born son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  That evidence is supported by what the Kingsguard say and do. 
  2. It doesn't need to be specifically mentioned that Aerys was murdered by Jaime and the Elia and her children were also slaughtered during the same day, when the Kingsguard acknowledge knowing about Jaime.  If they know current events, and express their disapproval of one of their bother's actions, without surprise or disbelief when mentioned, it is certain that they had pre-knowledge. 
  3. Viserys is Jon's uncle.  "By all of the laws I know a son comes before his uncle."
  4. There is no evidence that a baby wasn't there.  In fact it is much more probable from what we have read that he was there. 
  5. My aunt could've had balls, then she would've been mine uncle.  Arthur could have, but, then again he might not have, and there is a solid reason to not have. 
  6. Begging your pardon, I don't know how you count, but I count from Daenerys birth, which is at least 9 months after Rhaella and Viserys left for Dragonstone.  (I suppose a case could be made that Daenerys is a bastard, too.)  But, let's assume that she is true born, Jon is born no earlier than when Rhaella sails for Dragonstone (GRRM:  Jon is 8-9 months older than Daenerys.)  Add in that puerperal fever kills in five to ten days, and Jon is born no earlier than Ned's arrival minus ten days.  (GRRM:  has made it a three day time, on one occasion, for childbed fever to kill.  It is quite likely that Jon was born a very short time 3-7 days before Ned arrives.) 
  7. By getting to a more secure location they expose their position, which can only be assumed as a secret.  We have no one in story knowing exactly where the tower is.  If Jon is recently born, and Lyanna is terribly ill, travelling is much more difficult, but to travel without anyone noticing is going to be near impossible. 
  8. How about going to Starfall to arrange passage by ship for one or more of his party?  It is quite a good story to give, that one had to return the sword to House Dayne, while seeking a transport that is secure.  Honestly, your views remind me strongly of a member that was banned.  The statements here have all been fully addressed in the past by others, as well as I.  All come from taking a narrow view on selected passages, and fail to offer any explanations for all of the evidence. 

There is the rub.  The Kingsguard are sworn to "protect their king with their lives."  Ned is honor bound to retrieve his sister.  These sides are fated to fight for honor, on both sides.  Those who do not understand honor will fail to understand why the fight must take place.

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Guys I have a question. During Rhaegar's absence would it have been possible for Aerys to consider Viserys his rightful heir? I always thought that the mad king was plotting alongside Rhaegar and Lyanna, thus didn't send after them when they ran off.

Now that I come to think about it though, we know that Aerys and Rhaegar happened to have a relationship together that implied that they weren't really fond of each other. And we know that Aerys was really protective of his son Viserys. He would not come anywhere near Rhaegar's children, complaining about their Dornish smells.

So what do we have:
A king who is rather fond of his younger son, more than he likes his elder one. He dislikes Rhaegar's wife and their children. The throne would pass to Rhaegar's children after he inherits it first..

So when Rhaegar went off Aerys might as well was relieved to hear so, for he now could contrive a plan to give the throne to Vis.

What do you think of it?

Hmm, what is the source for how Aerys perceived Elia and her children as having a Dornish smell?  Is that the same source that suggests the Viserys became Aerys' new heir because Aerys had had Elia and her children killed?  Actually that source is really beginning to reek.  ;)

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  1. There is evidence that Jon was true born son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  That evidence involves what the Kingsguard say and do.

 

 

I completely disagree with you on this one. 

there is only one way for Jon to be a non-bastard. 

This is that Rhaegar went back to KL for the war and somehow persuaded his dad to do a legitimization of his future baby. 

Then KG received the message so they were sure Jon would be the best heir to the IT. 

 

If you are suggesting R and L got married secretly in TOJ or somewhere else which made Jon a true born son, then I disagree with you. 

Rhaegar was never a true king, not even for one single minute. He did not have power to marry secretly with Lyanna or even name Jon as his legitimate son. He had to ask a permission from king and faith and would likely receive a big "no". Otherwise why do you think he needs to run away and hide in the first place?

He could possibly tell KG this baby would be very important for the world and in the future I would make him legitimate by talking with my dad, or even I will try to persuade the faith to recognize this marriage, something like this. But he could not make it as a lawful marriage and legitimate heir by himself. This may even be part of the plan he told to Jiame before he went to trident. But he died soon so it is likely that he could not manage to do anything like this. 

Please tell me, how come KG decide Jon is the legal king at that moment? Are they the faith or king or the Grand Council?

You think if they saw Rhaegar had a secret marriage with Lyanna then they are very happy to say "oh, this is totally legal and valid! Let us guard our second queen and future heir!" 

 

If a secret marriage could work this way, why not King Robb Stark announce that he would marry two wifes: jenny and Roslin? 

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