R+L=J v. 152

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

 

I am starving and I need to go.  :frown5:

But yeah, I am kind of lost here and I think I should have some sort of rest. 

My basic point is existence of KG can not prove Jon is king, it can not prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully married either. 

 

But I may be wrong of course. GRRM can write whatever he wants to write.

he can even write Jon was born like a baby Jesus without a real father and Lyanna was a virgin until the very end.  

Maybe they were there for king and queen mother, but they could still be there for mistress and bastard. 

Yup getting a bit condescending me thinks.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

 

I am starving and I need to go.  :frown5:

But yeah, I am kind of lost here and I think I should have some sort of rest. 

My basic point is existence of KG can not prove Jon is king, it can not prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully married either. 

 

But I may be wrong of course. GRRM can write whatever he wants to write.

he can even write Jon was born like a baby Jesus without a real father and Lyanna was a virgin until the very end.  

Maybe they were there for king and queen mother, but they could still be there for mistress and bastard. 

i"m not arguing that it does prove it. 

however, you seem to be arguing that it's an impossibility and quite frankly it isn't.

[Consigliere]

 
Dragon power was something Dany and Jon may have. 
Rhaegar did not provide any of these, he did not even try to declare it openly.
 
And no, I am not condescending. 
Sorry if I make you feel like this. I did not mean it for sure. 
I am just very hungry and probably a little bit low blood sugar
But I still can not understand why R and L were lawfully married. 

I think enough evidence has been provided to show that Rhaegar and Lyanna could have been married. Is it definitive? No, but it isn't wishful thinking either.

[Sly Wren]

 

I am starving and I need to go.  :frown5:

But yeah, I am kind of lost here and I think I should have some sort of rest. 

My basic point is existence of KG can not prove Jon is king, it can not prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully married either. 

 

But I may be wrong of course. GRRM can write whatever he wants to write.

he can even write Jon was born like a baby Jesus without a real father and Lyanna was a virgin until the very end.  

Maybe they were there for king and queen mother, but they could still be there for mistress and bastard. 

You are absolutely correct. The KG can be at the tower because they think Jon is king. They can be at the tower because they were ordered to be there. And they could be at the tower because they just got there--reason to be determined.

 

Does the text allow for R and L to be married? Sure--doesn't say one way or the other. But you are absolutely right--the KG at the tower does NOT prove they are married.

[Ser Naufragus]

The real tragedy here is if they had just blabbed on the front lawn a while longer Lyanna would have expired and they would have been released from the vow they made to a long dead prince.

Arthur Dayne is kind of a dick too. You would think he would have said Lord Eddard, Gods be praised. Your sister doesn't have much time. Go give one last hug before the Stranger arrives. Instead he just justifies why he has failed.

And if they don't acknowledge Robert, are they even KG anymore or just some self righteous old men bound for the wall at best.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

^^I would assume that until the other lords acknowledged Robert as the new King they would still be KG to the Targ lineage. How and when exactly Robert's Rebellion became Robert's Kingdom is, IMO, something to contemplate.

[Ser Naufragus]

^^I would assume that until the other lords acknowledged Robert as the new King they would still be KG to the Targ lineage. How and when exactly Robert's Rebellion became Robert's Kingdom is, IMO, something to contemplate.

well the war was over more or less except for the siege on the Royal family who were forced to us a Darry for protection since the KG couldn't be bothered

[Sly Wren]

The real tragedy here is if they had just blabbed on the front lawn a while longer Lyanna would have expired and they would have been released from the vow they made to a long dead prince.

Arthur Dayne is kind of a dick too. You would think he would have said Lord Eddard, Gods be praised. Your sister doesn't have much time. Go give one last hug before the Stranger arrives. Instead he just justifies why he has failed.

And if they don't acknowledge Robert, are they even KG anymore or just some self righteous old men bound for the wall at best.

Yeah--this is one of the (many) reasons why, if anyone's in the tower, I don't think we're getting the scene straight. That it's off via the dream. Otherwise, hard to see why Ned praises Arthur to Bran as the best knight he ever saw. It's one thing to say "he did his duty." A whole other thing to lionize him.

 

So--maybe the timeline is off. Or key dialogue is missing. If not, if that conversation is straight, really think no one's in the tower and Ned thinks highly of Arthur because, in the end, Arthur told him where to find Lyanna.

[Selena]

all this discussion about the KG's has got me thinking, and now I am wondering if it is more then a coincidence that 2 certain KG's are there.

 

We know Arthur Dayne is Rhaegar's closest friend. Could Arthur, seeing what Aerys was becoming , have sworn his loyalty and support to his best friend Rhaegar instead of Aerys?  and by protecting Lyanna (and born/unborn Jon) he was fulfilling an oath he made to the man he considered his "king" and would not have reason to go to Viserys on DS

 

Oswell Whent- the world book tells us that Whent could have been used as a go between for Rhaegar and Lord Whent in setting up the tourney at HH, which Aerys might have rightly believed was being set up so Rhaegar could build suppot for coup.  If Oswell was the go between, then he was in on the plan and must have supported it, and therefore been loyal to Rhaegar and not Aerys, and Oswell being involved in this plot makes you think he could have been involved in something else. Say the "abduction" of a certain young woman who Rhaegar "happened" to fall on "less then 10 leagues" from the Whents family seat in HH.  This also satisfies a question I have always had which is why we never hear or learn of the brave knights that Rhaegar and his men would have had to at least fight, more likely kill, to abduct her. Because no way would a high lords daughter, a guest at another lords home, be "leagues" from anywhere without SOME type of protection right? Good thing the Lord's brother is a KG, who better for the lovely Lady Lyanna. (and this can work both ways..willing or abduction) . These two things also show Whent was loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys and would, like Arthur Dayne, have stayed at the ToJ fullfilling the oath he made to Rhaegar

[purple-eyes]

all this discussion about the KG's has got me thinking, and now I am wondering if it is more then a coincidence that 2 certain KG's are there.
 
We know Arthur Dayne is Rhaegar's closest friend. Could Arthur, seeing what Aerys was becoming , have sworn his loyalty and support to his best friend Rhaegar instead of Aerys?  and by protecting Lyanna (and born/unborn Jon) he was fulfilling an oath he made to the man he considered his "king" and would not have reason to go to Viserys on DS
 
Oswell Whent- the world book tells us that Whent could have been used as a go between for Rhaegar and Lord Whent in setting up the tourney at HH, which Aerys might have rightly believed was being set up so Rhaegar could build suppot for coup.  If Oswell was the go between, then he was in on the plan and must have supported it, and therefore been loyal to Rhaegar and not Aerys, and Oswell being involved in this plot makes you think he could have been involved in something else. Say the "abduction" of a certain young woman who Rhaegar "happened" to fall on "less then 10 leagues" from the Whents family seat in HH.  This also satisfies a question I have always had which is why we never hear or learn of the brave knights that Rhaegar and his men would have had to at least fight, more likely kill, to abduct her. Because no way would a high lords daughter, a guest at another lords home, be "leagues" from anywhere without SOME type of protection right? Good thing the Lord's brother is a KG, who better for the lovely Lady Lyanna. (and this can work both ways..willing or abduction) . These two things also show Whent was loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys and would, like Arthur Dayne, have stayed at the ToJ fullfilling the oath he made to Rhaegar

I am back.
Although there was no proof for it, both arthur and Oswell were likely to support rhaegar more than his father, even on board with whatever rhaegar's plan against his dad. They seemed to be very loyal to rhaegar if rhaegar asked them to help on lyanna stuff. In fact, the world book also said prince lywen supported rhaegar due to his marriage with his niece too. I feel like KG had their own preferences and rhaegar must be much better than his dad. Even Hightower May turned to rhaegar after seeing Aerys killed so many innocent people.
So this is another reason they were true to the order of rhaegar because they support him much more than his dad.

[Sly Wren]

all this discussion about the KG's has got me thinking, and now I am wondering if it is more then a coincidence that 2 certain KG's are there.

 

We know Arthur Dayne is Rhaegar's closest friend. Could Arthur, seeing what Aerys was becoming , have sworn his loyalty and support to his best friend Rhaegar instead of Aerys?  and by protecting Lyanna (and born/unborn Jon) he was fulfilling an oath he made to the man he considered his "king" and would not have reason to go to Viserys on DS

 

Oswell Whent- the world book tells us that Whent could have been used as a go between for Rhaegar and Lord Whent in setting up the tourney at HH, which Aerys might have rightly believed was being set up so Rhaegar could build suppot for coup.  If Oswell was the go between, then he was in on the plan and must have supported it, and therefore been loyal to Rhaegar and not Aerys, and Oswell being involved in this plot makes you think he could have been involved in something else. Say the "abduction" of a certain young woman who Rhaegar "happened" to fall on "less then 10 leagues" from the Whents family seat in HH.  This also satisfies a question I have always had which is why we never hear or learn of the brave knights that Rhaegar and his men would have had to at least fight, more likely kill, to abduct her. Because no way would a high lords daughter, a guest at another lords home, be "leagues" from anywhere without SOME type of protection right? Good thing the Lord's brother is a KG, who better for the lovely Lady Lyanna. (and this can work both ways..willing or abduction) . These two things also show Whent was loyal to Rhaegar, not Aerys and would, like Arthur Dayne, have stayed at the ToJ fullfilling the oath he made to Rhaegar

Very possible that being close to Rhaegar and seeing what Aerys was becoming/had become might have made it easier for Arthur to follow Rhaegar's orders as given. And that Whent's family might have made it easier to take Lyanna.

 

But can't think of anything that says Arthur or Whent wouldn't have followed Rhaegar's orders anyway. Or that they would change allegiance while the king was alive.

 

Plus, in the tower scene, the only king mentioned is Aerys. Granted, it's Hightower who mentions him and he seems hardcore--unlikely to switch loyalty. But still--no mention of Rhaegar or any of his children. By any of the KG at the tower. Ned brings up Viserys and Rhaella. And the KG seem really "united" in Ned's memory. So, really seems like they didn't switch loyalties. Or at least there's no evidence that they did. Plus, they can still follow orders from Rhaegar without switching loyalty. 

[Selena]

If Rhaegar WAS planning to use the tourney at HH to get support for overthrowing his father, wouldnt Whent, be bound by his oath to TELL Aerys (or at least Hightower) if he was still loayl to him?

[Ser Naufragus]

Aerys scores again, he nipped that coup in the bud by killing the girlfriend's brother and father. If Rhaegar hadn't been such a failure on the Trident things would have worked out fine for him.

[purple-eyes]

If Rhaegar WAS planning to use the tourney at HH to get support for overthrowing his father, wouldnt Whent, be bound by his oath to TELL Aerys (or at least Hightower) if he was still loayl to him?

KG are not that loyal. They have their own parties. Remember dance of the dragons?
They supported different royal person. They had divisions.

[Selena]

KG are not that loyal. They have their own parties. Remember dance of the dragons?
They supported different royal person. They had divisions.

 

 

exactly I was using that question to make a point.  if Whent WAS in on Rhaegars plot  and not only did not tell anyone about it, but played an active part then  Whent chose who he was loyal to.and it wasnt Aerys

[Sly Wren]

KG are not that loyal. They have their own parties. Remember dance of the dragons?
They supported different royal person. They had divisions.

 

 

 

exactly I was using that question to make a point.  if Whent WAS in on Rhaegars plot  and not only did not tell anyone about it, but played an active part then  Whent chose who he was loyal to.and it wasnt Aerys

Good point. And we have plenty of examples of struggling KG in the novels, too.  Still not sure they'd need to have switched loyalties to help Rhaegar. But they could definitely be more sympathetic to his "cause"--exact nature of cause to be determined.

[purple-eyes]

Good point. And we have plenty of examples of struggling KG in the novels, too.  Still not sure they'd need to have switched loyalties to help Rhaegar. But they could definitely be more sympathetic to his "cause"--exact nature of cause to be determined.

I always wonder if JonCon loves rhaegar so much, why not become his KG? Then I realize he was the only heir of his house.

[Ser Naufragus]

I always wonder if JonCon loves rhaegar so much, why not become his KG? Then I realize he was the only heir of his house.

He was hand of the king. That's better.

[purple-eyes]

He was hand of the king. That's better.

It is always amusing to think that JonCon has love love look at rhaegar all day around. And also hate look at Elia.
I always wonder if rhaegar knows his love and if so, what is his opinion.

[Bael's Bastard]

While I think Arthur and Oswell were closer to Rhaegar than Aerys, I don't think they will turn out to have done anything to break their vows to Aerys. There is no indication Rhaegar planned to go to war against or harm his father. And the indications we do have point to him seeking out the great houses on what to do about Aerys. While I am sure Rhaegar wanted to take away Aerys' power to do harm, they could have allowed him to remain king in name until he died. In the end Hightower was with them too, and his lines especially sound like someone who believes he has remained loyal to his king.