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R+L=J v. 152


BearQueen87

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It is always amusing to think that JonCon has love love look at rhaegar all day around. And also hate look at Elia.
I always wonder if rhaegar knows his love and if so, what is his opinion.


rhaegar was bi. he got his boyfriend named hand of the king. There is an Arthur/Jon/Rhaegar love triangle
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They probably know. 
It looks like they are not surprised by any news Ned brought. 
But of course maybe they are just very good to control their own feelings. 
It can be either way. Know or not.

 
They have definitely had some sort of news. Ned mentions the Trident and they immediately understand the implications, saying woe to the Usurper if they had been there. So they know already, before Ned tells them anything, that Robert is now king (capital on the Usurper) and therefore that Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead.
That tells us that their news 'packet' came after the Sack, which makes their lack of surprise make sense.
 
That also means that it is highly likely that their news packet includes the death of Aegon.
The one guaranteed source of highly disseminated news about the Sack would be the victorious rebels who would immediately send news far and wide by every method available that the Kings Landing is taken, Rhaegar and Aerys and Aegon are dead (the king the heir, the heir's heir), the Targaryen armies scattered, the war won and Robert Baratheon the new king ("to whom you owe your allegiance").
So that too, points to them knowing about Aegon - its an important data point for the rebels to make sure everyone knows the thoroughness of the victory and that there is no point to rally behind for Targ supporters so just accept it.
 
Its possible they had a different origin source for the news packet they received, but even then, such a source would be form a Rahegar supporter rather than an Aerys supporter (the source would have to know where they were and an Aerys supporter woud have been able to tell Aerys, who would never have been able to resist the value of Lyanna as a hostage), and therefore might have reasons not in include the news of Viserys' raising as heir, or may not even know that news to tell them.
 

I completely disagree with you on this one. 
there is only one way for Jon to be a non-bastard. 
This is that Rhaegar went back to KL for the war and somehow persuaded his dad to do a legitimization of his future baby. 
Then KG received the message so they were sure Jon would be the best heir to the IT. 
 
If you are suggesting R and L got married secretly in TOJ or somewhere else which made Jon a true born son, then I disagree with you. 
Rhaegar was never a true king, not even for one single minute. He did not have power to marry secretly with Lyanna or even name Jon as his legitimate son. He had to ask a permission from king and faith and would likely receive a big "no". Otherwise why do you think he needs to run away and hide in the first place?
He could possibly tell KG this baby would be very important for the world and in the future I would make him legitimate by talking with my dad, or even I will try to persuade the faith to recognize this marriage, something like this. But he could not make it as a lawful marriage and legitimate heir by himself. This may even be part of the plan he told to Jiame before he went to trident. But he died soon so it is likely that he could not manage to do anything like this. 
Please tell me, how come KG decide Jon is the legal king at that moment? Are they the faith or king or the Grand Council?
You think if they saw Rhaegar had a secret marriage with Lyanna then they are very happy to say "oh, this is totally legal and valid! Let us guard our second queen and future heir!" 
 
If a secret marriage could work this way, why not King Robb Stark announce that he would marry two wifes: jenny and Roslin?

 
You are free to choose to not believe that polygamy happened, but you cannot rule the possibility out entirely and expect to be taken seriously by anyone with a brain. There is too much evidence supporting it as an option and none at all removing it from possibility (plenty to show its harder, or less likely, none to show its impossible).
 
Note too that Targs are special and literally above the laws of gods and men, or so Catelyn tells us. As we see with the Lannister twins, no one else can get away with incest marriages, but the Targs can and do publicly without any problem at all. Even withouth the dragons supporting them.
Robb Stark isn't a Targ. He doesn't have the same social and cultural licences they have.
 

So what? If this is practical, why not try to seek a marriage for Lyanna in stead of running off and hiding?
If he could not make a public marriage accepted, how come a secret marriage would be accepted?
because he married before a heart tree? 
 
Aegon's situation happened three hundred years ago and he was a conqueror with dragons.
...
Now things changed.

 
Do it in secret because :
i) it is highly unlikely that Aerys would approve and the one thing that can stop it is a direct order from the King forbidding it. As others have said, forgiveness is much easier than permission.
ii) by 'disappearing', Rhaegar and Lyanna actually reduce the possibilities for extreme consequences, at least in theory. There is no target available for immediate and foolish actions, such as for the Starks or Robert to try and seize her back or attack Rhaegar. That allows for time to sooth immediate angers and also time increases the chance of gaining acceptance after the fact - if Lyanna is held for a week and recovered, it can be pretended as no big deal and Robert can 'take her back' without much issue. If she is away for 3-6 months, and possibly returns with a bun in the oven then its much harder for Robert and Rickard to pretend nothing happened and they are thus much more likely to accept a solution that includes Lyanna staying with Rhaegar and some form of recompense for Robert and Rickard.
Unfortunately in practice Brandon did something completely illogical and useless and upset the much-more-difficult-to upset apple cart anyway. Shit happens.
 
As for the things changed... well, not as much as you infer, according to the data we have. Others have shown you the details already.
 

Somebody can take 23 wives, why can not Rhaegar take two?
But this does not fit the feeling of the whole book.

 
You are entitled to take that opinion. It doesn't seem supported at all to me. The feeling of the book (one of them at least) seems to me that the Targaryens are clearly 'special' and can and do do things differently. Heck, thats not just a feeling, thats an explicit quote from Catelyn Stark! They have used polygamy in the past, GRRM has outright stated that the option remains open should he want to use it more recently and current Targs (Dany maybe fAegon) consider the option of using polygamy again. Why should the possibility not work for Rhaegar when he needs it?
 

This would be less confusing if the OP actually put in the full SSM where GRRM said that the KG would obey their orders instead of going to protect Viserys and Rhaella years ago.
 
And from the app we got Rhaegar's orders that he gave them that forced them not to go to Viserys and Rhaella
 
 
Rhaegar ordered them to stay and guard Lyanna. GRRM said that they'd have to obey this order instead of going to Viserys and Rhaella.

 
You seem to ignore that GRRM has a history of giving clever, accurate, but evasive answers to questions so that they don't reveal anything he doesn't want revealed.
Here's the quote:
Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 
Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

Now note what Martin actually says and doesn't say.
He doesn't say that obeying orders is the be all and end all, just that its something they also have to do as well as serve and protect the king and the royal family (note that elsewhere we have been told that the extension of protection to the royal family is up to the king, not automatic). Sometimes these thing will conflict, and sometimes the KG will have to, not make up their own orders, but choose between conflicting duties. And the first duty, we are told, is to protect the king. So both logically and by what we are told, that duty will take a higher precedent than a minor order (from a prince) if there is a clash.

Now consider that Prince Rhaegar orders the three KG to stay at ToJ and guard pregnant Lyanna while he returns to KL to lead the loyalist forces. If he gave that order, the KG would have to obey it, exactly as GRRM says. They couldn't say, 'we don't like that order we'll do something else. Exactly as GRRM says.
GRRM's answer exactly holds in the theoretical situation. It doesn't answer the actual question asked about why they would stay and fight weeks or months after Rhaegar left, but then, GRRM probably doesn't want to give away that answer yet, especially if it contains any R+L=J information that might give away that secret.
 
Now take GRRMs answer from why they were there initially and look at them in light of the fact that they know Rhaegar Aerys and Aegon are dead and Viserys has no KG.
Rhaegar's order cannot possibly hold them in place forever under all circumstances. Its an outdated order in completely different circumstances from a mere prince. To claim it still holds complete power over them despite the completely different circumstances they are now in is totally ridiculous, and completely subverts the entire purpose and value of the KG. Its why they were there originally (and hence GRRMs totally accurate answer), but it cannot explain why they are still there, all three of them, after they heard the news of the Sack.
 

Good job! I like you!
Since when KG can judge who will be the true heir or who will be the king and make up their own decisions and orders?
If they can do this, then they can do a lot of other stuff also.

 
They can do a lot of other stuff. They act as generals, chief policemen, diplomats and their Lord Commander does give them orders and make decisions when no one else higher is giving them other orders.
As to judging who is a true heir - everyone in the kingdom can do that. There are basic succession rules which are widely known - sons before uncles for example. These rules can be subverted by various factors, but they are still in place and gve the KG a strong basis to judge who is the true heir - absent other directions from the king etc.
 

First duty can not override their current unfinished order, otherwise they still break their oath.

 
:stunned:   Let me get this straight.
Your position is that they must follow any order given to them to do anything at all, or they fail their oath? Because thats the end result of what you are saying.
So a stable boy can order them to kill the king and if they do not do so they fail their oath? No?
Who then can give orders and what orders are valid and what not?
If the prince can give them orders, can the Hand?
If the Hand, then a council member?
If a council member then a Lord?
If a Lord, then a Knight?
If a Knight, then a squire?
If a squire, then a merchant?
If a merchant, his factor?
...
What orders are valid?
To guard the King's door?
To guard his table?
To guard his kitchen?
To guard his refuse dump?
To guard his bastard?
To guard his bastard's door?
To guard his bastard's refuse dump?
To guard his family, his son?
To guard his son's mistress?
To guard his son's mistress' tower?
To guard his son's mistress' refuse dump?
...
To kill his enemies?
To kill his friends?
To kill his family?
To kill the king?
 
And the first duty, to protect the king, cannot override any of these or they have failed their oath?
 
Words fail me...
 

King of what? North? Seven kingdoms? 
I just want to say KG were not a proof that baby Jon was king at that moment.

 
Proof no. A strong indication, yes.
 

What I have seen in these quotes were that KG needs to obey the order (even Barri feel he should attend the young king, ned ordered him to stay. even Barri should guard the queen, he had to obey if Dany wanted him to guard her lover or husband. When Jiame received an order from Rhaegar, he had no choice but obey.) they promised to obey. Obey was the core and discipline. If king asked all KG to protect other people (no one for himself), KG had to obey. Otherwise KG would use king as a hostage by saying:" I think I need to protect you in stead of obeying you!"
Somebody gave the case above. 
Rhaegar gave the order. Before the order was fulfilled, they could not disobey this order.


See above.
A timeless order does not last forever.

Obey the prince does not override protect the king.

 

Not while you proudly proclaim KG status at least.

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GRRM confirmed Rhaegar knew but he didn't roll that way.


Rhaegar must feel quite uncomfortable or uneasy to know this guy had some special feeling on him.
Not sure about straight guy's feeling if they have a good buddy who loves him romantically.
Any straight guy here to shed some light?
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They have definitely had some sort of news. Ned mentions the Trident and they immediately understand the implications, saying woe to the Usurper if they had been there. So they know already, before Ned tells them anything, that Robert is now king (capital on the Usurper) and therefore that Rhaegar is dead and Aerys is dead.
That tells us that their news 'packet' came after the Sack, which makes their lack of surprise make sense.
 
That also means that it is highly likely that their news packet includes the death of Aegon.
The one guaranteed source of highly disseminated news about the Sack would be the victorious rebels who would immediately send news far and wide by every method available that the Kings Landing is taken, Rhaegar and Aerys and Aegon are dead (the king the heir, the heir's heir), the Targaryen armies scattered, the war won and Robert Baratheon the new king ("to whom you owe your allegiance").
So that too, points to them knowing about Aegon - its an important data point for the rebels to make sure everyone knows the thoroughness of the victory and that there is no point to rally behind for Targ supporters so just accept it.
 
Its possible they had a different origin source for the news packet they received, but even then, such a source would be form a Rahegar supporter rather than an Aerys supporter (the source would have to know where they were and an Aerys supporter woud have been able to tell Aerys, who would never have been able to resist the value of Lyanna as a hostage), and therefore might have reasons not in include the news of Viserys' raising as heir, or may not even know that news to tell them.
 

 
You are free to choose to not believe that polygamy happened, but you cannot rule the possibility out entirely and expect to be taken seriously by anyone with a brain. There is too much evidence supporting it as an option and none at all removing it from possibility (plenty to show its harder, or less likely, none to show its impossible).
 
Note too that Targs are special and literally above the laws of gods and men, or so Catelyn tells us. As we see with the Lannister twins, no one else can get away with incest marriages, but the Targs can and do publicly without any problem at all. Even withouth the dragons supporting them.
Robb Stark isn't a Targ. He doesn't have the same social and cultural licences they have.
 

 
Do it in secret because :
i) it is highly unlikely that Aerys would approve and the one thing that can stop it is a direct order from the King forbidding it. As others have said, forgiveness is much easier than permission.
ii) by 'disappearing', Rhaegar and Lyanna actually reduce the possibilities for extreme consequences, at least in theory. There is no target available for immediate and foolish actions, such as for the Starks or Robert to try and seize her back or attack Rhaegar. That allows for time to sooth immediate angers and also time increases the chance of gaining acceptance after the fact - if Lyanna is held for a week and recovered, it can be pretended as no big deal and Robert can 'take her back' without much issue. If she is away for 3-6 months, and possibly returns with a bun in the oven then its much harder for Robert and Rickard to pretend nothing happened and they are thus much more likely to accept a solution that includes Lyanna staying with Rhaegar and some form of recompense for Robert and Rickard.
Unfortunately in practice Brandon did something completely illogical and useless and upset the much-more-difficult-to upset apple cart anyway. Shit happens.
 
As for the things changed... well, not as much as you infer, according to the data we have. Others have shown you the details already.
 

 
You are entitled to take that opinion. It doesn't seem supported at all to me. The feeling of the book (one of them at least) seems to me that the Targaryens are clearly 'special' and can and do do things differently. Heck, thats not just a feeling, thats an explicit quote from Catelyn Stark! They have used polygamy in the past, GRRM has outright stated that the option remains open should he want to use it more recently and current Targs (Dany maybe fAegon) consider the option of using polygamy again. Why should the possibility not work for Rhaegar when he needs it?
 

 
You seem to ignore that GRRM has a history of giving clever, accurate, but evasive answers to questions so that they don't reveal anything he doesn't want revealed.
Here's the quote:Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? 
Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."

Now note what Martin actually says and doesn't say.
He doesn't say that obeying orders is the be all and end all, just that its something they also have to do as well as serve and protect the king and the royal family (note that elsewhere we have been told that the extension of protection to the royal family is up to the king, not automatic). Sometimes these thing will conflict, and sometimes the KG will have to, not make up their own orders, but choose between conflicting duties. And the first duty, we are told, is to protect the king. So both logically and by what we are told, that duty will take a higher precedent than a minor order (from a prince) if there is a clash.
Now consider that Prince Rhaegar orders the three KG to stay at ToJ and guard pregnant Lyanna while he returns to KL to lead the loyalist forces. If he gave that order, the KG would have to obey it, exactly as GRRM says. They couldn't say, 'we don't like that order we'll do something else. Exactly as GRRM says.
GRRM's answer exactly holds in the theoretical situation. It doesn't answer the actual question asked about why they would stay and fight weeks or months after Rhaegar left, but then, GRRM probably doesn't want to give away that answer yet, especially if it contains any R+L=J information that might give away that secret.
 
Now take GRRMs answer from why they were there initially and look at them in light of the fact that they know Rhaegar Aerys and Aegon are dead and Viserys has no KG.
Rhaegar's order cannot possibly hold them in place forever under all circumstances. Its an outdated order in completely different circumstances from a mere prince. To claim it still holds complete power over them despite the completely different circumstances they are now in is totally ridiculous, and completely subverts the entire purpose and value of the KG. Its why they were there originally (and hence GRRMs totally accurate answer), but it cannot explain why they are still there, all three of them, after they heard the news of the Sack.
 

 
They can do a lot of other stuff. They act as generals, chief policemen, diplomats and their Lord Commander does give them orders and make decisions when no one else higher is giving them other orders.
As to judging who is a true heir - everyone in the kingdom can do that. There are basic succession rules which are widely known - sons before uncles for example. These rules can be subverted by various factors, but they are still in place and gve the KG a strong basis to judge who is the true heir - absent other directions from the king etc.
 

  :stunned:   Let me get this straight.
Your position is that they must follow any order given to them to do anything at all, or they fail their oath? Because thats the end result of what you are saying.
So a stable boy can order them to kill the king and if they do not do so they fail their oath? No?
Who then can give orders and what orders are valid and what not?
If the prince can give them orders, can the Hand?
If the Hand, then a council member?
If a council member then a Lord?
If a Lord, then a Knight?
If a Knight, then a squire?
If a squire, then a merchant?
If a merchant, his factor?
...
What orders are valid?
To guard the King's door?
To guard his table?
To guard his kitchen?
To guard his refuse dump?
To guard his bastard?
To guard his bastard's door?
To guard his bastard's refuse dump?
To guard his family, his son?
To guard his son's mistress?
To guard his son's mistress' tower?
To guard his son's mistress' refuse dump?
...
To kill his enemies?
To kill his friends?
To kill his family?
To kill the king?
 
And the first duty, to protect the king, cannot override any of these or they have failed their oath?
 
Words fail me...
 

 
Proof no. A strong indication, yes.
 

See above.
A timeless order does not last forever.
Obey the prince does not override protect the king.
 
Not while you proudly proclaim KG status at least.


Ok. All right.
Let us say R and L got married secretly and happily. She is queen Lyanna.
And Jon is the king in the tower with his three kingsguards.
A hidden king waited to return to his thrones.
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Rhaegar must feel quite uncomfortable or uneasy to know this guy had some special feeling on him.
Not sure about straight guy's feeling if they have a good buddy who loves him romantically.
Any straight guy here to shed some light?


having the hand of the king be hopelessly in love with you has its advantages. especially when you do your coup.
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having the hand of the king be hopelessly in love with you has its advantages. especially when you do your coup.


So sounds like it is totally acceptable if this guy is loving you and also useful.
Well, JonCon must be happy then. At least he can stay around his true love everyday.
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Ok. All right.
Let us say R and L got married secretly and happily. She is queen Lyanna.
And Jon is the king in the tower with his three kingsguards.
A hidden king waited to return to his thrones.

 

She still wouldn't be a queen - Rhaegar was never a king.

 

And Jon being a hidden king wouldn't be true anyway, even if thats what the KG believed. Viserys would be King due to Aerys naming him heir, even if the KG don't know that.
But now Viserys is dead, childless, I guess that would make Jon the true Targaryen King... except... if Aegon is real he's before Jon anyway. Just the KG believe Aegon dead.

 

Point is, its all a mess and not entirely relevant anyway. The Iron Throne won't be decided by the best blood claim from the preceding dynasty anyway by now, but by power and politics.

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She still wouldn't be a queen - Rhaegar was never a king.
 
And Jon being a hidden king wouldn't be true anyway, even if thats what the KG believed. Viserys would be King due to Aerys naming him heir, even if the KG don't know that.
But now Viserys is dead, childless, I guess that would make Jon the true Targaryen King... except... if Aegon is real he's before Jon anyway. Just the KG believe Aegon dead.
 
Point is, its all a mess and not entirely relevant anyway. The Iron Throne won't be decided by the best blood claim from the preceding dynasty anyway by now, but by power and politics.


I guess queen mother will be better? How do we call the mother of queen? Will she be queen?
Jon would be like aragorn, wield a cool sword, declare himself as trueborn heir of targaryen, return to his king's landing, sit on the throne, marry a couple of wives, jon targaryen, first of his name. Blablabla......
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I am just wondering what will be the best and honorable way to get lyanna in stead of scandalous eloping or abduction?

Rhaegar should do it like Littlefinger, firstly put aside Elia and her children, made himself available, then asked a single duel with Robert for lyanna's hand. Then nobody would blame him and he can marry lyanna officially.
Dorne would piss off but they are just on kingdom. At least other houses would be fine.

I am not sure if he can win Robert. But he can ask arthur dayne to fight for him, I guess.
Arthur would win for him.
The most of the people would be happy.
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Ok. All right.
Let us say R and L got married secretly and happily. She is queen Lyanna.
And Jon is the king in the tower with his three kingsguards.
A hidden king waited to return to his thrones.

 

I'm sorry, but she is not queen Lyanna. Rhaegar is not king, therefore Lyanna isn't a queen. He is a prince. He died before his father. Not to forget the world book hints about Viserys being named a heir, i.e., Rhaegar's son's are not becoming kings either.

 

ETA: I see others have already pointed this out for you.

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This is just like the military order to a soldier. Do not ask, do not change, just obey the order. Do not think about other stuff. 

This is called discipline. 

There are also things called chain of command, priorities and standing orders. So, yes, a soldier has to think sometimes, has to prioritise.

 

 

So they would rather miss the battle of trident, miss the sack of KL, miss the war of storm end, because they had to obey the order. 

Did the KG have a crystal ball to know that these would happen and how they would play out? Did the KG have a teleportation device to get them there? And even if they did, why would they abandon their post when the first duty was being fulfilled by their sworn brothers? Had Hightower known that Aerys had only Jaime with him, he might have felt compelled to split forces and go to KL, but he didn't know.

 

 

First duty can not override their current unfinished order, otherwise they still break their oath. 

If something is a first duty, it has the highest priority. Sometimes, it may take breaking a lower order oath to keep a higher one. Just like Jon did with Ygritte to be able to carry out a higher order.

 

Not very sure what do you mean by Raenyra and Daemon and Aegon's kids. 

None of them got married when they have another living spouse. Both Rahenyra and Daemon lost their spouse, after that they married. No polygamy issue. Although they married very quickly after the deaths of their spouses which caused a big scandal. Aegon's kids were both unmarried. 

None of them had the king's permission to marry and would have received a big no if they had asked.

 

 

Rhaegar had a much bigger issue because his wife was alive!!!!

That is why he can not just marry Lyanna secretly to make it valid. It is not about how he got married (publicly or secretly), it is about he is not qualified for marriage due to his current marriage. If he was a single man, he could marry secretly and come back and nobody can say the marriage was not valid. Like Aegon''s kids. But he is a married man. This simple. 

Indeed. He certainly would have had trouble with his second marriage. But, as others pointed out, itis nowhere stated that the polygamous marriages of his ancestors were considered invalid, hence he could use the precedent.

 

 

You do not need to mention Mormon. There are plenty countries you can marry more wives nowadays. But in the whole series, we did not even see a single case for polygamy. It is not something people recognize widely.

Of course I do. They reintroduced a custom that was not used in the western culture for over a thousand years.

 

A marriage appears to be a done deal once its done. IIRC the same was true of Jaehaerys and Shaera. Once it was done it was done. If there is a marriage there are no bastards, whether it is an only wife or second wife.

Once you say the words, you are in, regardless whether it is NW or marriage.

 

The real tragedy here is if they had just blabbed on the front lawn a while longer Lyanna would have expired and they would have been released from the vow they made to a long dead prince.

KG vows are for life, though, and it is the KG vows they invoke, not any special vows to Rhaegar.

 

 

Arthur Dayne is kind of a dick too. You would think he would have said Lord Eddard, Gods be praised. Your sister doesn't have much time. Go give one last hug before the Stranger arrives. Instead he just justifies why he has failed.

That might have been the point - not to give Lyanna a chance to tell that she had given birth to Rhaegar's son.

 

 

And if they don't acknowledge Robert, are they even KG anymore or just some self righteous old men bound for the wall at best.

Acknowledging Robert means switching loyalties. 

 

Jon would be like aragorn, wield a cool sword, declare himself as trueborn heir of targaryen, return to his king's landing, sit on the throne, marry a couple of wives, jon targaryen, first of his name. Blablabla......

No-one ever claimed this. 

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I am just wondering what will be the best and honorable way to get lyanna in stead of scandalous eloping or abduction?

Rhaegar should do it like Littlefinger, firstly put aside Elia and her children, made himself available, then asked a single duel with Robert for lyanna's hand. Then nobody would blame him and he can marry lyanna officially.
Dorne would piss off but they are just on kingdom. At least other houses would be fine.

I am not sure if he can win Robert. But he can ask arthur dayne to fight for him, I guess.
Arthur would win for him.
The most of the people would be happy.

And why would Aerys allow him to do this?

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I guess queen mother will be better? How do we call the mother of queen? Will she be queen?
Jon would be like aragorn, wield a cool sword, declare himself as trueborn heir of targaryen, return to his king's landing, sit on the throne, marry a couple of wives, jon targaryen, first of his name. Blablabla......

 

She's dead, why does she need a title at all?

 

What you appear to be doing is trying to put words in others mouths about where they see Jon's story going. So far with very little skill or substance.

How about you just don't?

Maybe I'm misreading the tone completely, if so, sorry.

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Hmm, what is the source for how Aerys perceived Elia and her children as having a Dornish smell?  Is that the same source that suggests the Viserys became Aerys' new heir because Aerys had had Elia and her children killed?  Actually that source is really beginning to reek.  ;)

The world book does not suggest that Viserys was named heir because Aerys had Elia and her children killed...

The statement there is simple. After Rhaegar's death, Viserys became Aerys' new heir. Seeing as he believed the dornish had betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident, it is not so odd that he did so.

Really, I honestly see no reason for that to be untrue atm.

No, it is a sensible assumption. We know that Whent and Dayne were with Rhaegar when Lyanna entered their company, and a year later they are still with Lyanna. In other works the Kingsguard are assigned to family members, so it certainly seems logical to assume that Whent and Dayne are assigned to Rhaegar, by King Aerys. I don't think that Rhaegar could pick and choose, though he does seem to order Jaime around a bit.

The king can assign a KG to a member of the royal fammily. Rhaenyra first had Criston Cole as her personal sworn sword, then Harwin Strong (no KG) then a KG.

But that example also shows that a King can choose to name another protector at any time, should he wish. If Aerys believed Whent was plotting with Rhaegar (for example, due to the Harrenhal Tourney), he could have easily recalled Whent to KL.

We know that Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when Lyanna disappeared, but I wouldn't go as far as to assume they had been Rhaegar's personal guards before. Rhaegar could have simply asked his father for a KG escort into the Riverlands..

In addition, this doesn't mean that Whent and Dayne escorted Rhaegar to KL forcing Hightower to be the only one to remain behind. It is possible, but not a given. Hightower most likely didn't travel alone, so it us possible that whoever Hightower brought with him, rode back to KL with Rhaegar.

 
He perhaps named Viserys and there is no mention of Aegon being completely disinherited.

Why 'perhaps'?

Agreed that it doesn't mean Aegon was completely disinherited. He could also have been placed after Viserys and all his descendants.

I always wonder if JonCon loves rhaegar so much, why not become his KG? Then I realize he was the only heir of his house.

Rhaegar wasn't forming his own KG.
And JonCon had cousins who could inherit (and did inherit, after his exile).

GRRM confirmed Rhaegar knew but he didn't roll that way.

Rhaegar knew? Poor JonCon.. Do you happen to have a link? :)
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Actually, there are hints that Rhaegar didn't have any KG sworn shields. Yandel claims that Aerys II only met with Tywin in the presence of all seven Kingsguard in the years before his dismissal. It is not specified when exactly that happened or how long this continued as a 'general rule' but if it extended beyond Rhaegar moving to Dragonstone he could not have possibly been allowed to take a KG with him to the island - or else Aerys wouldn't have met with Tywin while that knight was away.

 

We also learn that Arthur Dayne, Lewyn, and Rhaegar's other friends were Rhaegar's men at Aerys' court opposed to Aerys' cronies on the Small Council. The tensions Pycelle compares to the buildup to the Dance could only possibly have developed if Rhaegar's faction was actually at court and not residing with the Prince on Dragonstone - then things would just have been weird and there would have been rumors and stuff, but there wouldn't have been a strong potential for a violent conflict.

 

In addition, it is also clear that Aerys didn't name a KG sworn shield for either Rhaella or Viserys. Instead, he chose on a whim to assign or reassign KG to them, exemplified by his command to Jaime to leave Harrenhal to guard the Queen and Viserys back home. But this didn't last, Jaime later specifically guards the king himself. But sworn shields are usually assigned to the person they protect until the order is revoked - Arys Oakheart isn't protecting Myrcella for a short time, and neither was Sandor Clegane in Joff's case (historically the various sworn shields for Rhaenyra also never left her side).

 

If I had to guess I'd say Aerys II was one of the kings who didn't allow his family KG protection under normal circumstances. At least not later in life when the madness had him fully in his grip. And I'd not be surprised one bit if Oswell and Arthur were actually disobeying the king's orders when they accompanied Rhaegar to the Riverlands.

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UL,

 

the only scenario in which it makes sense to me that the knights at the tower had good knowledge about the Sack would be if a letter written by a person the knights trusted reached a loyalist castle and was then sent from there to the tower via a rider. Any rumors spreading through the Realm - people overhearing and repeating proclamations based on the ravens some lords received, or refugees telling other refugees, telling travelers etc. would just be talk. If you know anything about Westeros - which you do as a Westerosi nobleman - you don't take information at face value you get on the streets. But any source specifically trying to reach the knights at the tower and knowledgeable enough (meaning being present in the city during the Sack) to confirm the deaths of Aerys, Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon - and the manner of their deaths - would also know about the changed succession, and would also want to pass on that knowledge to ensure that the knights join the true king, Viserys III.

 

Any scenarios you can come up with that explain why or this person didn't know about that is conjecture. You have to twist stuff around to come up with reasons why things did remain secret - the proclamation of the new heir - whose whole purpose was to not remain secret. Note that Yandel doesn't mention a decree or a proclamation, he mentions that Viserys was Aerys' new heir - which he could only have been if he was publicly proclaimed as such. If Viserys had been Aerys' 'secret heir' Yandel would have told us that, or he would completely have dropped this whole thing.

 

It isn't necessary to assume it was widely known for the knights to have received the knowledge from a trusted source. If we take the dream stuff seriously - which you do - then the knights even knew that Rhaella and Viserys were on Dragonstone. That means they were very informed indeed in the dream.

 

Barristan Selmy has no special assignment at the time of Robert's death, or has he? The Kingsguard guards the king unless they don't. If Selmy had been given a special assignment by King Robert he would have continued to fulfill that even after the latter's death, no matter who the new king was or whether he had any KG protection.

 

Barristan only can speak of Joffrey as 'the young king' because he was expecting him to be crowned. Before his coronation Joff was at best a king designate or the future king or something like that. Had Ned prevailed, Stannis would have been crowned in Joffrey's place, and Barristan may have been forced to watch the execution of Cersei and her children (following Stannis' coronation). And generally there are no fixed or inflexible rules for the whole KG stuff. We don't know anything about the subtleties of their vows, but there is a hint that the wording is only that they serve for life, not specifying whether it is their life or the life of their king - which is then used by Cersei to justify Barristan's dismissal. Vows are personal - if I am the new king and if I don't like you as my Kingsguard this KG cannot force me to accept him as my protector.

 

We don't know what kind of order Rhaegar gave the knights when he left, but one assumes that it had to do with Lyanna and her unborn child, not the tower itself. If the king (or a prince they consider their liege for whatever reason) gives them an order they obey it. Especially if they have reason to believe that the people they are supposed to protect are in danger. That is how honor and obedience work. Rhaegar's and Aerys' death would have changed nothing there. Just as Qhorin Halfhand's death didn't change the meaning of the order he had given to Jon Snow.

 

Whether Ser Willem was KG by the time of his journey to Dragonstone remains to be seen. Prince Lewyn and Jonothor Darry died at the Trident, so Aerys could have named Ser Willem to his KG, couldn't he?

 

As to Maegor and Alys:

 

Even TWoIaF makes it clear that the so-called marriage between Maegor and Alys Harroway caused a rift between the Faith and Aenys I even despite the fact that Aenys did actually punish Maegor. 'The Sons of the Dragon' elaborated on that, and it is quite clear that Ran/Linda's words are summaries of this longer version. The High Septon is pissed about the polygamy, Aenys is pissed about the polygamy, and gives Maegor the choice of returning to Ceryse or go into exile. Maegor chooses the latter. The appointment of Septon Murmison as Hand is an attempt to make Ceryse fertile - since he is supposedly a miracle-worker Aenys hopes Murmison's touch can help Ceryse to conceive so that Maegor would no longer have a reason to stay with Alys Harroway (it is quite clear that he is desperate for a legitimate heir, and has only married Alys because Ceryse seems to be barren). Visenya, Maegor, and the Harroways are the only people in Westeros who accept this marriage.

 

Generally speaking ancient marriages are effectively valid when there is some ritual and the spouses are living together. That's it. Maegor had some marriage ritual, and was living with Alys rather than Ceryse, suggesting that he felt she was his lawful wife now, and Ceryse had been set aside. This was not so much polygamy as it was an effective divorce and a remarriage. Maegor's real polygamous days only began after he became king when he took Tyanna to wife in 42 AC.

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The world book does not suggest that Viserys was named heir because Aerys had Elia and her children killed...

The statement there is simple. After Rhaegar's death, Viserys became Aerys' new heir. Seeing as he believed the dornish had betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident, it is not so odd that he did so.

Really, I honestly see no reason for that to be untrue atm.

The king can assign a KG to a member of the royal fammily. Rhaenyra first had Criston Cole as her personal sworn sword, then Harwin Strong (no KG) then a KG.

But that example also shows that a King can choose to name another protector at any time, should he wish. If Aerys believed Whent was plotting with Rhaegar (for example, due to the Harrenhal Tourney), he could have easily recalled Whent to KL.

We know that Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when Lyanna disappeared, but I wouldn't go as far as to assume they had been Rhaegar's personal guards before. Rhaegar could have simply asked his father for a KG escort into the Riverlands..

In addition, this doesn't mean that Whent and Dayne escorted Rhaegar to KL forcing Hightower to be the only one to remain behind. It is possible, but not a given. Hightower most likely didn't travel alone, so it us possible that whoever Hightower brought with him, rode back to KL with Rhaegar.

Why 'perhaps'?

Agreed that it doesn't mean Aegon was completely disinherited. He could also have been placed after Viserys and all his descendants.

Rhaegar wasn't forming his own KG.
And JonCon had cousins who could inherit (and did inherit, after his exile).

Rhaegar knew? Poor JonCon.. Do you happen to have a link? :)


I did, but lost a few of them when my old computer went up.

I think it was an SSM.

I'm starting to build up my stash again with it's own folder.

SHAME (ring), SHAME, (ring), SHAME, (ring),...... :)
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