Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Reading Sansa's chapter at the Tourney of the Hand, we get this description of Ser Hugh's death that screams of foreshadowing / symbolism to me, but I couldn't find any threads on it: Varys later posits that Ser Hugh could have been the one to poison Jon Arryn, and I believe Pycelle mentions that he agrees. What I find odd is that it makes perfect sense if what we are lead to believe up until that point, that Jamie and Cersei are responsible, turns out to be true. Which of course it doesn't. A 'red handed' knight, made so by the sun (Jaime's face is often described as a sun) which then hides from view, leading to the blood stained moons that appear in the Arryn sigil. Ser Gregor of course, a Lannister man through and through. Unless GRRM changed his mind as to the perpetrator of Arryn's murder? Are there examples of foreshadowing Littlefinger & Lysa's involvement in aGoT?I've seen a few suggestions here and there. The Moments of Foreshadowing threads are a good place to discuss foreshadowing. The Wow I Never Noticed That threads are good too. Here we have 1) shiny new armor, 2) a bright streak of fire, 3) steel catching the light, 4) a cloud covering the sun--ending the fire, 5) a sky blue cloak turned red by blood, and 6) crescent moons turning red ine by one by blood. Hmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I've tried searching those threads, there's discussion of the way in which Sansa and Jeyne deal with the death but couldn't find anything on the specific quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I've tried searching those threads, there's discussion of the way in which Sansa and Jeyne deal with the death but couldn't find anything on the specific quote.I recall Fire Eater and somebody else suggesting it had to do with Sansa's moon blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Do we ever learn what became of Tarber and Cutjack after they abandoned Arya, Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drekinn Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Is it know exactly what kind of magics Danelle Lothston did that managed to led to the house being purged? And who led the assault on Harrenhall beside the Whents? Or is this saved for another D&E story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avlonnic Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Reading Sansa's chapter at the Tourney of the Hand, we get this description of Ser Hugh's death that screams of foreshadowing / symbolism to me, but I couldn't find any threads on it: Varys later posits that Ser Hugh could have been the one to poison Jon Arryn, and I believe Pycelle mentions that he agrees. What I find odd is that it makes perfect sense if what we are lead to believe up until that point, that Jamie and Cersei are responsible, turns out to be true. Which of course it doesn't. A 'red handed' knight, made so by the sun (Jaime's face is often described as a sun) which then hides from view, leading to the blood stained moons that appear in the Arryn sigil. Ser Gregor of course, a Lannister man through and through. Unless GRRM changed his mind as to the perpetrator of Arryn's murder? Are there examples of foreshadowing Littlefinger & Lysa's involvement in aGoT? Hello! Please check the Moments of Foreshadowing thread. I reposted your post there as I think you will get additional insights there. Thanks for highlighting this scene. Here is the link. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117219-moments-of-foreshadowing-10/page-17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Do we ever learn what became of Tarber and Cutjack after they abandoned Arya, Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy? Not that I can remember. Kind of in the same category as Stonesnake. Wish we knew if he survived! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winterfellbeyondthewall Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 That should be obvious. We already know that Anne Groell figured out the identity of Jon's mother from AGoT manuscript. I was under the impression that winterfellbeyondthewall wanted to know when it was first posted online. Based on a post in RLJ v.1 it seems that the theory was around on the original Dragonstone site circa.1997. Yes exactly. Thanks for the answer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSumm Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Hello! Please check the Moments of Foreshadowing thread. I reposted your post there as I think you will get additional insights there. Thanks for highlighting this scene. Here is the link. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117219-moments-of-foreshadowing-10/page-17 Thanks for that, I'd still like to leave just one fragment of my post here: is there any evidence that Littlefinger and Lysa plotted to kill Jon Arryn in JUST the first book, and if not, is it possible GRRM changed his mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Thanks for that, I'd still like to leave just one fragment of my post here: is there any evidence that Littlefinger and Lysa plotted to kill Jon Arryn in JUST the first book, and if not, is it possible GRRM changed his mind? Lysa's motif is strongly present in AGOT: the mystery surrounding Robert's fostering location, and her unwillingness to part with the boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mychel_Redfort Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Thanks for that, I'd still like to leave just one fragment of my post here: is there any evidence that Littlefinger and Lysa plotted to kill Jon Arryn in JUST the first book, and if not, is it possible GRRM changed his mind?You could deduce Lisa killed her husband by the end of the first book by putting these two quotes together :From AGOT 59 : "I was speaking of your sister. I proposed that Lord and Lady Arryn foster two of my grandsons at court, and offered to take their own son to ward here at the Twins. Are my grandsons unworthy to be seen at the king's court? They are sweet boys, quiet and mannerly. (...) "Well, whoever he was, Lord Arryn wouldn't have him, or the other one, and I blame your lady sister for that. She frosted up as if I'd suggested selling her boy to a mummer's show or making a eunuch out of him, and when Lord Arryn said the child was going to Dragonstone to foster with Stannis Baratheon, she stormed off without a word of regrets and all the Hand could give me was apologies. What good are apologies? I ask you."And from AGOT 55 : "I did hold Tyrion Lannister, but no longer," Catelyn was forced to admit. A chorus of consternation greeted the news. "I was no more pleased than you, my lords. The gods saw fit to free him, with some help from my fool of a sister." She ought not to be so open in her contempt, she knew, but her parting from the Eyrie had not been pleasant. She had offered to take Lord Robert with her, to foster him at Winterfell for a few years. The company of other boys would do him good, she had dared to suggest. Lysa's rage had been frightening to behold. "Sister or no," she had replied, "if you try to steal my son, you will leave by the Moon Door." After that there was no more to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The substance was the pyromancers' own term for wildfire. They called each other wisdom as well, which Tyrion found almost as annoying as their custom of hinting at the vast secret stores of knowledge that they wanted him to think they possessed. Once theirs had been a powerful guild, but in recent centuries the maesters of the Citadel had supplanted the alchemists almost everywhere. Now only a few of the older order remained, and they no longer even pretended to transmute metals . . .Tyrion V, Clash 20 Where do the alchemists still hold sway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 DaveSumm, I'm a little confused. Varys tells Ned that LF killed John Aryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 DaveSumm, I'm a little confused. Varys tells Ned that LF killed John Aryn. Do you trust him? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 DaveSumm, I'm a little confused. Varys tells Ned that LF killed John Aryn. Does he? He implies Hugh, but I don't remember him giving much more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I believe that Varys gave Ned enough info for Ned to jump to the wrong conclusion and that Varys let him do so, possibly because he wanted LF's chaos creating abilities around a while longer, but that if you look at the info Varys gives Ned about who killed Jon Aryn, it fits LF better than ser Hugh, for example Ser Hugh didn't owe everything he had to Jon Aryn, it was Lysa who insisted he become a knight, Jon never gave that to him. But it was Jon Aryn who made him master of customs and Gulltown and then presumably to Kl to be master of coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 DaveSumm, I'm a little confused. Varys tells Ned that LF killed John Aryn.When does Varys tell Eddard that Petyr killed Jon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I believe that Varys gave Ned enough info for Ned to jump to the wrong conclusion and that Varys let him do so, possibly because he wanted LF's chaos creating abilities around a while longer, but that if you look at the info Varys gives Ned about who killed Jon Aryn, it fits LF better than ser Hugh, for example Ser Hugh didn't owe everything he had to Jon Aryn, it was Lysa who insisted he become a knight, Jon never gave that to him. But it was Jon Aryn who made him master of customs and Gulltown and then presumably to Kl to be master of coin.Oh, I see... You're a proponent of the young man owing all he had to Jon by Varys to Eddard as a subtle hint that Petyr was behimd the assassination. The problem with that is why didn't Varys just tell Eddard that Petyr was behind it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crippledtank Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Are there any theories out about LF being a part of varys and illryios plan? I'm just thinking how much easier it'll be aegon if the RL and vale support him or even just stay out of it! So far it seems LF is gaining power for the sake of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Are there any theories out about LF being a part of varys and illryios plan? I'm just thinking how much easier it'll be aegon if the RL and vale support him or even just stay out of it! So far it seems LF is gaining power for the sake of itThere are a few who believe that Varys and Petyr are in cahoots. And there are some who believe that the interests of Varys and Illyrio are not aligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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