Good Guy Garlan Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 My biggest criticism is Feast and Dance and their filler, bloat, underdeveloped characters, infinite parade of cliffhangers, stagnant plot, and their general feeling of treading water and being incomplete. I think it's clear GRRM lost the plot, missed the forest for the trees, etc, and the question now is whether he's able to pick it up again or not. That said, the first 3 books are near perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 My biggest criticism is Feast and Dance and their filler, bloat, underdeveloped characters, infinite parade of cliffhangers, stagnant plot, and their general feeling of treading water and being incomplete. I think it's clear GRRM lost the plot, missed the forest for the trees, etc, and the question now is whether he's able to pick it up again or not. That said, the first 3 books are near perfect. All of this and the loss of chronology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 The lack of the time skip. It would have been cool to see the kids grow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 You're absolutely right. But what do you think about my complaints with the show? I hate the show so I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 All of Feast, most of Dance, then various bizarre decisions, but these are quibbles, as there'd be no story without them: Cat kidnaps Tyrion. Ned defends what Cat does. Mormont's ranging. Intelligent, compassionate leader facing a shortage of men.takes most of his rangers into a lethal forest, and hopes to risk them against 100,000 wildlings. It's a breathtakingly bad decision, completely out of character, especially as this is a guy who knows the white walkers are coming, and that the wildlings are part of the "realms of men" he has sworn to protect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater Saint Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 My complaints about the books have pretty much all been voiced: Over-extended travel passages Quentyn Martell (very dull, undeveloped) Davos Seaworth (very dull, undeveloped) Victarion Greyjoy (very dull, undeveloped) Arya's lack of any substantial flaw to give her character substantial dramatic potential The dreary Bran chapters The failure to utilize Petyr Baelish as well as the show and Aiden Gillen have The failure to utilize Margaery Tyrell as well as the show and Natalie Dormer have The convoluted muck in the North with the Ironborn, Stannis, and the Boltons...very slapdash and poorly conveyed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Wait, people like Marg in the show?It completely messes with the rest of the KL plot, and ruins Cersei's poetic prophecy self-fulfillment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 The lack of the time skip. It would have been cool to see the kids grow up. No, the 5 year gap would not make any sense after ASoS. Since we are making criticism here, it is more reasonable to criticize George for starting with too young characters. I don't think anything would change significantly had George started with all the characters being 3-5 years older. In that case, there would be no need for a gap. George never planned to make a gap in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater Saint Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Wait, people like Marg in the show? It completely messes with the rest of the KL plot, and ruins Cersei's poetic prophecy self-fulfillment. They absolutely blew the Margaery-Cersei-Sparrow plot line. However, they and Dormer turned a somewhat savvy, virginal (or semi-virginal) teenoid into a crafty, pragmatic, and sensual woman capable of being a contender in the GOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 No, the 5 year gap would not make any sense after ASoS. Since we are making criticism here, it is more reasonable to criticize George for starting with too young characters. I don't think anything would change significantly had George started with all the characters being 3-5 years older. In that case, there would be no need for a gap. George never planned to make a gap in the first place. Fair point, I suppose. I would have liked the characters to be a bit older to start out with. Rickon most all, since he acts nothing at all like a 3/4 year old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crippledtank Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 How the houses with the right cause (Starks and baratheon) just happen to be too just and noble to to make an alliance. Simple as this in book 2 Rob receives word that joff and co are bastards with no claim, supports stannis with the might of the north and riverlands Scenario 2 Stannis gets over himself for a minute and says okay the Starks can take half the realm if they help me, then patch it with a marriage later I know at a little more complicated but they both basically said no because petty bs Stannis takes throne promises royal marriage to reunite kingdom and then preps for doomsday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 The time between books and the nearly 2 decades between the first and most recent book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 My complaints about the books have pretty much all been voiced: Over-extended travel passages Quentyn Martell (very dull, undeveloped) Davos Seaworth (very dull, undeveloped) Victarion Greyjoy (very dull, undeveloped) Arya's lack of any substantial flaw to give her character substantial dramatic potential The dreary Bran chapters The failure to utilize Petyr Baelish as well as the show and Aiden Gillen have The failure to utilize Margaery Tyrell as well as the show and Natalie Dormer have The convoluted muck in the North with the Ironborn, Stannis, and the Boltons...very slapdash and poorly conveyed I agree with all this, except for Arya. We don't see much of her before she starts experiencing horrors (books 2-5), so it's difficult to know if she has any substantial flaw. She's just a rebellious kid, having fun in a new city, learning from Syrio. Now she's near-insane in her need for revenge, seemingly without compassion, but that's more a result of what she's been through than anything else. I'll add to this a serious wreckage of females in the last two books. As you say, Marg is wasted. Olenna disappears. Dany, Mel are no longer competent. Arianne is a not terribly bright yet sexy Mediterrannean stereotype who must learn to obey daddy. Asha, a strong female, gets kidnapped, in order to act as a male character's pov. Jeyne gets tortured and raped to make possible a man's redemption. Penny is an embarrassment. Cersei turns into a Very Stupid Villain. Cat returns as a zombie, seemingly for the shock value of it alone, as did we need her to pile on to the theme that revenge is wrong? And it goes on and on and on and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater Saint Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I agree with all this, except for Arya. We don't see much of her before she starts experiencing horrors (books 2-5), so it's difficult to know if she has any substantial flaw. She's just a rebellious kid, having fun in a new city, learning from Syrio. Now she's near-insane in her need for revenge, seemingly without compassion, but that's more a result of what she's been through than anything else. I guess I would say the more horrors she experiences, the stronger and harder she becomes as she pretty much faces all of them down. What makes Jaime and Sansa such strong characters is situations completely break them down to the point they question everything that made them "strong" before. That questioning gives them both a vulnerability they carry with them, plus a developing but fragile strength they use to grow and meet future dilemmas. Arya pretty much becomes more and more badass and more and more sure of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I'll add to this a serious wreckage of females in the last two books. As you say, Marg is wasted. Olenna disappears. Dany, Mel are no longer competent. Arianne is a not terribly bright yet sexy Mediterrannean stereotype who must learn to obey daddy. Asha, a strong female, gets kidnapped, in order to act as a male character's pov. Jeyne gets tortured and raped to make possible a man's redemption. Penny is an embarrassment. Cersei turns into a Very Stupid Villain. Cat returns as a zombie, seemingly for the shock value of it alone, as did we need her to pile on to the theme that revenge is wrong? And it goes on and on and on and on. Yeah, this is a pretty good point. You've also got the Sand Snakes, who are as weak and lazy as female characters go. And all that pales next to the Mercy chapter in all its disgusting glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Walker Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Lots of plot conveniences for some characters(LF) and against some characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Lots of plot conveniences for some characters(LF) and against some characters. Yes!!!! -Like how the North doesn't have a navy in the beginning. -Every fucking body betraying the Starks -LF pulling everyone's strings -Shadowbaby How all the mothers are practically driven insane in some way because of their children. No happy moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Cold Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I guess I would say the more horrors she experiences, the stronger and harder she becomes as she pretty much faces all of them down. What makes Jaime and Sansa such strong characters is situations completely break them down to the point they question everything that made them "strong" before. That questioning gives them both a vulnerability they carry with them, plus a developing but fragile strength they use to grow and meet future dilemmas. Arya pretty much becomes more and more badass and more and more sure of herself. Arya was pretty depressed after the Red Wedding. That was her low point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mankytoes Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Boring Bran chapters and dream sequences. I know some are kinda plot relevant, but I really hate dream sequences in all fiction. There's one where Tyrion kills his family and has two heads, one is laughing, the other is crying. Subtle. My dreams are normally completely irrelevant as to what's going on around me. Lots of criticisms I don't agree with, most common is people who don't like the Ironborn, I love 'em. Also, book Petyr smashes show Petyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blackmont Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Boring Bran chapters and dream sequences. I know some are kinda plot relevant, but I really hate dream sequences in all fiction. There's one where Tyrion kills his family and has two heads, one is laughing, the other is crying. Subtle. My dreams are normally completely irrelevant as to what's going on around me.Lots of criticisms I don't agree with, most common is people who don't like the Ironborn, I love 'em. Also, book Petyr smashes show Petyr.100% agree. I also hate very poetic text for some reason. You know, like how people describe the world to blind people in movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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