Bakker XXXVIII: Where The Posters Are Damned

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

That's good stuff Locke. And this got me thinking about the Nail of Heaven also. Heaven to Hell, I wonder if that's the point where Viri reached into the Heavens?

[.H.]

Locke, would you mind posted that over at tSA when you have a chance? Keep in mind, all things in this thread will be lost when the fabled upgrade comes swirling down.

Here is something that occurred to me over the weekend:

So, I reread this passage it there are a number of curious things I hadn't thought about:

But the boy clutched his father’s sword, crying, “So long as men live, there are crimes!”
The man’s eyes filled with wonder. “No, child,” he said. “Only so long as men are deceived.”
For a moment, the young Anasûrimbor could only stare at him. Then solemnly, he set aside his father’s sword and took the stranger’s hand. “I was a prince,” he mumbled.
The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune. They cried out—not to the Gods they had repudiated but to one another—that here was evident a great correspondence of cause. Here awareness most holy could be tended. In Ishuäl, they had found shelter against the end of the world.
Still emaciated but wearing the furs of kings, the Dûnyain chiselled the sorcerous runes from the walls and burned the Grand Vizier’s books. The jewels, the chalcedony, the silk and cloth-of-gold, they buried with the corpses of a dynasty.

First, why would his "eyes fill with wonder" at what the Prince says to him?

Second, it seems to be saying that them finding Ishuäl was fortunate. That it proved "correspondence of cause" but then again, framed as it is, the passage could well be saying that finding an Anasûrimbor was the fortunate part.

Aside from that, I took to wonder about Ishuäl. Odd facts about it:

Despite it being an alleged product of Celemomas, the name Ishuäl is Ihrimsû for "Exalted Grotto" not Kûniüric, or Dûnyanic (which is Kûniüric in origin). Why would it have a Nonman name, if it was human built? Further more, when Kellhus first enters a Nonman mansion, he remarks:

So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.
...
The work of Nonmen.

Indeed, I find it highly plausible that Ishuäl is a Nonman mansion, which led me to think, why was it made, yet uninhabited. Sticking with the thread of the name though, I curiously looked up what "grotto" would mean.

The word comes from Italian grotta, Vulgar Latin grupta, Latin crypta, (from the Greek κρύπτη krýptē "hidden vault").

This was interesting to me, but I felt it too tenuous to really be much. Then I happened to be rereading WLW, and I came across this:

For his part, Achamian did not know what to believe. All he knew was that the Mop was no ordinary forest and that the encircling trees were no ordinary trees.
Crypts, Pokwas had called them.
...
Aside from his one nightmarish dream of the finding the No-God, he had dreamed of naught but the same episode since climbing free of Cil-Aujas: the High-King Celmomas giving Seswatha the map detailing the location of Ishuäl—the birthplace of Anasûrimbor Kellhus—telling him to secure it beneath the Library of Sauglish... In the Coffers, no less.
"Keep it, old friend. Make it your deepest secret..."

Here is a reference to "crypts," the trees of the Mop, and this triggers Akka to dream of Ishuäl. Coincidence, possibly, but I doubt it.

It has occurred to me before that Akka's insistence that the dreams are essentially random is absolutely false. They may have been at one time, when all the souls of all the Mandate sorcerers seemed essentially "the same" but not now, not for Akka who walks a very different path.

So, is Ishuäl a crypt? Is so, then for who? If it is a "hidden vault" then what was necessary to hide?

Considering it's location, it seems like it would a creation of Injor-Niyas, made by Nil'giccas and afterwards forgotten?

The last resting place of their Nonmen women perhaps?

[Darzin]

 If it is a "hidden vault" then what was necessary to hide?

 

 

Seeds? That's what Celmomas says are there. Now what exactly he meant by that who knows. Maybe it's just his family but I doubt it's that simple.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Heron Spear? Seeds is the obvious choice, as Darvin said, that's what Celmommas said.

What has gotten me confused is Kellhus acts like he knew the Nonmen built The Thousand Thousand Halls, by that quote. Yet, when he meets Mek, he says something along the lines of, "a Nonman, another of Leweth's ghouls". So, does he just make the connection in Kyudea? Or, is it possible Kellhus is just a unreliable narrator? And, any POV he had can be taking with a grain of salt?

[.H.]

Heron Spear? Seeds is the obvious choice, as Darvin said, that's what Celmommas said.

What has gotten me confused is Kellhus acts like he knew the Nonmen built The Thousand Thousand Halls, by that quote. Yet, when he meets Mek, he says something along the lines of, "a Nonman, another of Leweth's ghouls". So, does he just make the connection in Kyudea? Or, is it possible Kellhus is just a unreliable narrator? And, any POV he had can be taking with a grain of salt?

Well, that quote is much later, in TTT when he enters the mansion to see Moe. I think it is there that he makes the connection, no sooner.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

Heron Spear? Seeds is the obvious choice, as Darvin said, that's what Celmommas said.

What has gotten me confused is Kellhus acts like he knew the Nonmen built The Thousand Thousand Halls, by that quote. Yet, when he meets Mek, he says something along the lines of, "a Nonman, another of Leweth's ghouls". So, does he just make the connection in Kyudea? Or, is it possible Kellhus is just a unreliable narrator? And, any POV he had can be taking with a grain of salt?

Author error? Otherwise, we can perhaps presume Achamian teaches Kellhus enough to recognise what Non-Man architecture looks like and that he then makes the leap to recognising that Ishual is a former Mansion. 

 

Seeds is what I first thought too. Interesting that the Dunyain attribute finding Ishual/or an Anasurimbor as a 'correspondence of cause' given their belief that the world does not conspire. If we infer that it is finding an Anasurimbor that is celebrated and that the Dunyain did not find Ishual accidentally, i.e. they were directed there by Celmomas, then perhaps it is the fact that the Anasurimbor is another seed offering opportunity to exploit the potential of a distinct bastard bloodline (buying into the theory that Kellhus is not Celmomas' true seed, which is inferred to either still be at Ishual or else has been moved by the retreating Dunyain - the presence of this true seed also offers Kellhus a motivation to destroy Ishual, especially if he anticipates that the true seed will oppose him in his mission, whatever Kellhus' mission truly is [Christ or Antichrist, etc.]).

[.H.]

Well, my quote is misleading, because I cut the interconnect; he realized first that the hall he walks is similar to the Thousand Thousand Halls. He then sees a relief that he realizes is carved by Nonmen:

So like the Thousand Thousand Halls … So like Ishuäl.
Kellhus forged ahead, the scattered detritus cracking beneath his feet. He watched the walls resolve from cold blackness, studied the mad detail that thronged across them. Statuary, not reliefs, had been carved into them: figures no taller than his knee, posed in narratives that outran the light of his lantern, and stacked one atop another, even across the vaulted ceiling, so that it seemed he walked through stone grille work. He paused, held his lantern before a string of naked figures raising spears against a lion, then realized that another frieze had been carved behind this first. Peering through miniature limbs, he saw deeper, more licentious representations, depicting all manner of poses and penetrations.
The work of Nonmen.

Of course, this means that Ishuäl, is also Nonman built, as it's logical conclusion.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

If we infer that it is finding an Anasurimbor that is celebrated and that the Dunyain did not find Ishual accidentally, i.e. they were directed there by Celmomas, then perhaps it is the fact that the Anasurimbor is another seed offering opportunity to exploit the potential of a distinct bastard bloodline (buying into the theory that Kellhus is not Celmomas' true seed, which is inferred to either still be at Ishual or else has been moved by the retreating Dunyain - the presence of this true seed also offers Kellhus a motivation to destroy Ishual, especially if he anticipates that the true seed will oppose him in his mission, whatever Kellhus' mission truly is [Christ or Antichrist, etc.]).

Two things. First, obviously the Dunyain belief is not how life on Earwa works. And, who knows what they truly believe? It could be far different than what they use to condition their "children". Secondly, are you inferring that the "true" Anasurimbur is still tucked away by the Dunyain? Never heard that before.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

Two things. First, obviously the Dunyain belief is not how life on Earwa works. And, who knows what they truly believe? It could be far different than what they use to condition their "children". Secondly, are you inferring that the "true" Anasurimbur is still tucked away by the Dunyain? Never heard that before.

I've seen quite a few people state that they believe Kelhuss may not be the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy or a true seed of Celmomas. Ergo, if there is a true seed and Ishual is full of seeds, the true Anasurimbor may well be at Ishual. Speculation, of course, but could be a fruitful thread.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I've seen quite a few people state that they believe Kelhuss may not be the fulfillment of the Celmomian Prophecy or a true seed of Celmomas. Ergo, if there is a true seed and Ishual is full of seeds, the true Anasurimbor may well be at Ishual. Speculation, of course, but could be a fruitful thread.

Gotcha. I want to believe Mimara and the true and false prophecy bit, is gonna play a role in TUC.

[bakkerfans]

psa: Bakker is one of the judges for a contest at Grimdark Magazine--Best Battle Scene

http://grimdarkmagazine.com/pages/the-grimdark-magazine-battle-off-competition

[Madness]

I think I'll try something for that.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

A theory on topoi that ties in with Lockesnow's speculations (guessing something similar has already been raised, but what the hell): dying souls must exit the world to the Outside by penetrating the barriers between realms. Suppose such an exit leaves a temporary wound. Then consider if such a wound might be more traumatic the more traumatic the death. Topoi would therefore be caused when thousands of such traumatic deaths occur in one place, so that the scars of souls passing through to the Outside are permanent. This makes excellent sense of lockesnow's idea that the Non-Men sought to create a direct portal to Oblivion using the torturous deaths of emwamwa. Question: if this is the cause of topoi, why does it not leave a Mark like sorcery? Why can sorcerers not detect death and birth as the wounding of the Onta? Is it some other barrier souls push through to go between the World and the Outside? If not, (crackpot) might death and the passage of souls have been the original cause of the shattering of the God? And what is it that the No-God does to shut out souls entering in from the Outside? Is it some kind of reverse topoi that renders the barrier impermeable? Could the great lines of prisoners tormented at Golgotterath be connected to this attempt to create an anti-topoi? Is the No God an anti-topoi - an absolute objectivity, a truth that renders the world impermeable to entering subjectivity?

[.H.]

There seems to be two "phases" of Nonman 'worship,' that which predates immortality and that which postdates it.

Pre-imortallity, the Nonmen worshiped Oblivion, after, Becoming:

Friezes panelled the walls—were-animals with multiple heads and limbs—but not to the convoluted depths found elsewhere. The scalpers, Achamian could tell, thought them representations of devils: More than a few whispered homespun charms. But he knew better, recognizing in the figures a sensibility kindred to that of the Wolf Gate. It wasn't monsters that glared from the walls, he knew, but rather the many poses of natural beasts compressed into one image. Before they began forgetting, the Nonmen had been obsessed with the mysteries of time, particularly with the way the present seemed to bear the past and the future within it.

Long-lived, they had worshipped Becoming... the bane of Men.

"We are Many!" the Erratic roared. "We are legion! What you call your soul is nothing but a confusion, an inability! A plurality that cannot count the moments that divide it and so calls itself One."
His eyes flared white. Words boomed out, words that made a crimson globe of his head and face. The sound of vacant space ripping, a growl in the deepest pocket of the ear. Abstractions lashed the open air between them, wracked Achamian's Wards. The old Wizard raised arms against the glittering violence.
"Only when memory is stripped away!" Cleric cried out, the glow fading from his eyes. "Only then is Being revealed as pure Becoming! Only when the past dies can we shrug aside the burden that is our Soul!"
Fractal lights tangled the figure's outstretched arms. More arcane words, reverberating across ethereal surfaces. More flashing Abstractions, cracking and hissing across the glowing shells that shielded the Wizard. Fire consumed the thronging scrub and trees. Fire garnished the truncated walls. About them, the famed courtyards of the Holy Library had become burning pits.
"Only then does the Darkness sing untrammelled!" Cleric cried. "Only then!"
"And yet you seek memories!" the Wizard cried, at last delivered to tears.
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
Again the Nonman King laughed.
"That is Becoming."

So, Being, unburdoned by the past, is Becoming? In other words, a self-moving Soul?

Also:

"We Nonmen..." he continued telling his hands, "we think the dark holy, or at least we did before time and treachery leached all the ancient concerns from our souls..."

"The dark?" Galian said, and his voice warm and human—and as such, so very frail. "Holy?"

The Nonman lifted his flawless white face to the light, smiled at the Nansur scalper's questioning gaze.

"Of course... Think on it, my mortal friend. The dark is oblivion made manifest. And oblivion encircles us always. It is the ocean, and we are naught but silvery bubbles. It leans all about us. You see it every time you glimpse the horizon—though you know it not. In the light, our eyes are what blinds us. But in the dark—in the dark!—the line of the horizon opens... opens like a mouth... and oblivion gapes."

Though the Nonman's expression seemed bemused and ironic, Achamian, with his second, more ancient soul, recognized it as distinctively Cûnuroi—what they called noi'ra, bliss in pain.

"You must understand," Cleric said. "For my kind, holiness begins where comprehension ends. Ignorance stakes us out, marks our limits, draws the line between us and what transcends. For us, the true God is the unknown God, the God that outruns our febrile words, our flattering thoughts..."

Akka also tells us:

Topoi are like heights, places where one can see far … But where heights are built with mounds of stone and earth, topoi are built with mounds of trauma and suffering. They are heights that let us see farther than this world … some say into the Outside.

So, was the 'slave pit' an attempt to discern more about the nature of the Outside? It seems so. However, the Wright tells us:

"Damnation-shun, Cousin-sin. How-How? How-How could-could we-we forget-get?"

A sorrow flattens the glittering black eyes. "Not I. I have never forgotten..."

After the immortality, some forgot their damned state, so their eventual worship of Becoming had them end up damned.

[Ser Drizztos]

"And yet you seek memories!"
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
"That is Becoming."

 

2deep4me (that's why I love Bakker - because he's so much smarter than me!)

So apparently Nonmen cling to memories to continue to exist, but that existence is a deception. So far so good, but what about the last bit? Someone explain the madness/becoming relation to me.

[.H.]

"And yet you seek memories!"
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
"That is Becoming."
 
2deep4me (that's why I love Bakker - because he's so much smarter than me!)
So apparently Nonmen cling to memories to continue to exist, but that existence is a deception. So far so good, but what about the last bit? Someone explain the madness/becoming relation to me.

I'm not smart enough to really understand, I think I need the likes of Locke or Solo to explain it to me.

My only guess that is Becoming is embracing the madness (and deception) of memory?

[Larry of the Lawn]

Re: Becoming- I think it's just an Erratic becoming their eventual potential for all things and experiences.  So drowned in experiences that to feel anything they crave atrocity.  I also think Bakker's really trying to give a nod/wink or just straight up ape some Blood Meridian with a lot of the Cleric scenes - 'the we are legion' thing seems to be pretty much straight out of the gnostic 'fragments of the God' stuff and he frequently has Cleric up on a rock in a wasteland railing, lecturing, or preaching to the Skineaters.  I'm not sure how much of what he says we just attribute to his very real madness or how much is true.  He's kind of like Cnauir, in that you have to sift out the truth from his insanity.

 

Also makes me think of Fiennes in Red Dragon as the serial killer whose whole slew of crimes are part of his "Becoming".

[Callan S.]

"And yet you seek memories!"
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
"That is Becoming."

 

2deep4me (that's why I love Bakker - because he's so much smarter than me!)

So apparently Nonmen cling to memories to continue to exist, but that existence is a deception. So far so good, but what about the last bit? Someone explain the madness/becoming relation to me.

Because they seek memory without control of doing so - as much as you can't control that when tapping the nerve in your knee, you kick.

 

They are reflexively propelled, by becoming, toward memory.

 

It is not a willing act.

 

And with memory comes being. And being is deception.

[all swedes are racist]

"And yet you seek memories!"
"To be! Being is not a choice!"
"But you claim Being is deception!"
"Yes!"
"But that is nonsense! Madness!"
"That is Becoming."
 
2deep4me (that's why I love Bakker - because he's so much smarter than me!)
So apparently Nonmen cling to memories to continue to exist, but that existence is a deception. So far so good, but what about the last bit? Someone explain the madness/becoming relation to me.

Well of course Akka is going to think that Being=Deception; that's a tough pill to swallow, especially for a guy like him. I don't think Cleric is clarifying that Akka's claim of "nonsense! madness!" is Becoming, I think he is rebutting it; referring back to his own antecedent... Oblivion-- knowing nothing because nothing can be known--is the sole objective Truth. Embracing that idea is Clerics Becoming, passing from the subjective potentiality of Being to the actuality of oblivion.

That probably makes no sense at all, sorry

[unJon]

The whole "we are legion" smacks of Blind Brain Theory, and the delusion of conciousness.