Larry of the Lawn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Off topic but I'm listening to the most recent tsacast (finally got around to it) and there was some speculation about The Solitary God : Is it different than the Hundred or just a more powerful ciphrang? It was mentioned that the other gods don't seem to have a Water-like power, but we see that Yatwer can produce a magic (or divine?) bag that can hide a chorae from the fucking grandmistress of the Swayali. That seems like magic in the same vein as the psukhe at least insofar as it's under the radar to sorceror's, but even more than that, it's fucking immune to chorae. Thoughts? Crackpot: Or did Kellhus somehow rig the whole "yatwer miracle with Sorwheel" subplot knowing he'd give the chorae to Zoronga, who would try to gain hero status by trying to assassinate Kellhus. But of course it would be a fake chorae, and the assassination attempt would fail and expose Zoronga as an enemy. His inevitable execution would force his father's hand and all of a sudden Malowebi becomes super important narrative-wise instead of just being an interesting pov with cool info, but who is generally outside any major conflict. And then HHZ finds out about it (not sure how this would happen now that the Ordeal has gone radio silent, but I'm sure Kellhus could do it), and they attack the Empire in concert with Fanyal. Not really sure what plot this would advance other than maybe Kellhus actually wanting to help the consult reduce the population, maybe I'm just drinking too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Off topic but I'm listening to the most recent tsacast (finally got around to it) and there was some speculation about The Solitary God : Is it different than the Hundred or just a more powerful ciphrang? It was mentioned that the other gods don't seem to have a Water-like power, but we see that Yatwer can produce a magic (or divine?) bag that can hide a chorae from the fucking grandmistress of the Swayali. That seems like magic in the same vein as the psukhe at least insofar as it's under the radar to sorceror's, but even more than that, it's fucking immune to chorae. Thoughts? I think the Wight scene in TJE explains this. The gods carry their frame with them, so the chorae should have no effect. Unless it's a Mimara inverted chorae which I think imposes the frame of the Judging Eye (the God?). So I think Yatwer can do things just like sorcery without leaving a mark because her changes to the world are situated in the right "frame." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Lol I love the idea sorweels chorae is fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I think the Wight scene in TJE explains this. The gods carry their frame with them, so the chorae should have no effect. Unless it's a Mimara inverted chorae which I think imposes the frame of the Judging Eye (the God?). So I think Yatwer can do things just like sorcery without leaving a mark because her changes to the world are situated in the right "frame." Cool, good point. And that's one of the other ones that puzzled me (or led me to more questions). So would any of the Hundred be able to do that? Or can only The God do that (a la judging eye)? Or is the God just and amalgamation of the Hundred? Does a chorae hurt a ciphrang? Or does it have no effect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Lol I love the idea sorweels chorae is fake. +1, great idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 +1, great idea It would explain Kellhus's "blindness" to Sorwheel and Yatwer. Why doesn't Kellhus realize he's not a Believer-King? Because Kellhus is ghost-riding that flying umbrella. The entire thing could be a screen for the eventual "WLW doesn't actually kill Kellhus" plot because the Yatwer/Sorwheel stuff is pretty much the only other demonstration of Yatwer's earthly powers. And once Zoronga gives Kellhus a mild bruise on the weenus by chucking the 'chorae' at him the shit is going to hit the fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 It would explain Kellhus's "blindness" to Sorwheel and Yatwer. Why doesn't Kellhus realize he's not a Believer-King? Because Kellhus is ghost-riding that flying umbrella. The entire thing could be a screen for the eventual "WLW doesn't actually kill Kellhus" plot because the Yatwer/Sorwheel stuff is pretty much the only other demonstration of Yatwer's earthly powers. And once Zoronga gives Kellhus a mild bruise on the weenus by chucking the 'chorae' at him the shit is going to hit the fan. I like it. Keep em coming. That whole storyline does seem a bit off. And you get the feeling Kellhus is playing a game. I don't see sorweel killing Kellhus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themerchant Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Didn't Kellhus pick Sorweels Slave. Or at least intruct Kaytaus (sp? oldest son) to "befriend him". He sends Porsparian to fetch Sorweel then gifts him to him, who just happens to then wash his face, get him a private audience with Yatwer etc. Seems a fortitutous correspondence of cause that the Dunyain supply Sorweel with the slave who then furnishes him with weapons to take the Dunyain down. On a seperate note , i think there might be a switch with the Non-men captives. Akka and Mimara and Young Moe as the Enemy, Daughter and Son. With Sorweel and Serwe freed to do other stuff. I think it's possible the two graps paths converge at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Cool, good point. And that's one of the other ones that puzzled me (or led me to more questions). So would any of the Hundred be able to do that? Or can only The God do that (a la judging eye)? Or is the God just and amalgamation of the Hundred? Does a chorae hurt a ciphrang? Or does it have no effect? I think in the first trilogy we saw chorae destroying ciphrang in Earwa. Speculation was that the chorae simply destroyed the magical bonds keeping the ciphrang in Earwa but didn't harm the ciphrang itself. I don't recall the textual support for that speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drizztos Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Well of course Akka is going to think that Being=Deception; that's a tough pill to swallow, especially for a guy like him. I don't think Cleric is clarifying that Akka's claim of "nonsense! madness!" is Becoming, I think he is rebutting it; referring back to his own antecedent... Oblivion-- knowing nothing because nothing can be known--is the sole objective Truth. Embracing that idea is Clerics Becoming, passing from the subjective potentiality of Being to the actuality of oblivion. That probably makes no sense at all, sorry As in, the realization that Being = deception is (part of) the process of Becoming? Becoming what exactly? Passing into oblivion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Off topic but I'm listening to the most recent tsacast (finally got around to it) and there was some speculation about The Solitary God : Is it different than the Hundred or just a more powerful ciphrang? It was mentioned that the other gods don't seem to have a Water-like power, but we see that Yatwer can produce a magic (or divine?) bag that can hide a chorae from the fucking grandmistress of the Swayali. That seems like magic in the same vein as the psukhe at least insofar as it's under the radar to sorceror's, but even more than that, it's fucking immune to chorae. Thoughts?I am afflicted with the curse of never remembering what I say (and hating the sound of my own voice), but I think I was trying point out on that Cast that I do not believe the Solitary God is really any different (fundamentally) than any of the 100. The only real difference (in my mind) is the "concentrated" nature of the worship in it's name.Think of what Kellhus said, that the ""God... broken into a million warring splinters" is what he found in the Outside. The Solitary God is no more a 'true God' than any of the Hundred, it is just a 'larger' shard due to the monotheistic nature of it's worship. Considering what we learn of Titirga and what Scott has said about the Psûkhe, I am very doubtful that Water comes from the Solitary God, it is simply a by-product of concentrated, passionate, undoubting faith, coupled with the (for some reason that isn't entirely clear) mystical significance of blindness.(important aside, wtf does "breaking of the gates" really mean? it seems hopelessly naive to assume these are physical gates rather than gates like the ones Mimara holds...)I think the Gates are what the Nonmen (and so then men) call what divided the Inside (the World or the Real) from the Outside. Minarma refers to the "Gates of Hell" when talking of Cil-Aujas. I do not believe there is a separate Heaven and a Hell in Earwa though, only the Outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt b Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Becoming what exactly? A Great Red Dragon? Sorry, I'm watching Hannibal now and with the constant use of the word "becoming" in this thread I can't think of anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 A Great Red Dragon? Sorry, I'm watching Hannibal now and with the constant use of the word "becoming" in this thread I can't think of anything else. Yup. Wracu are what cunuroi turn into when they go full-erratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I think the Solitary God is the underlying Idealist Mind, the Ground of Being. As such it's rather different from the Ciphrang. I didn't think Sorweel's Chorae was fake, though I do think the Dunyain are well aware of this play. It would be amusing if Yatwer's power was limited to the WLW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 I am doubling down on the chorae being a fugazi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'm missing something - what's the reasoning behind the chorae being fake, apart from 'wouldn't it be cool if it was'? I mean, it would be cool - but generally this series is built off having a long (to the point of longwinded) explanation/causal chain for everything. It seems rare anything 'just out of the blue, is', though from each characters perspective there's plenty of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'm missing something - what's the reasoning behind the chorae being fake, apart from 'wouldn't it be cool if it was'? I mean, it would be cool - but generally this series is built off having a long (to the point of longwinded) explanation/causal chain for everything. It seems rare anything 'just out of the blue, is', though from each characters perspective there's plenty of that. That Kellhus is orchestrating the Yatwer bit with Sorweel. To find out if he's an enemy or not, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I'm missing something - what's the reasoning behind the chorae being fake, apart from 'wouldn't it be cool if it was'? I mean, it would be cool - but generally this series is built off having a long (to the point of longwinded) explanation/causal chain for everything. It seems rare anything 'just out of the blue, is', though from each characters perspective there's plenty of that. Because if the Hundred are just ciphrang, they shouldn't (I'll admit that takes some kind of assumption on the nature of magic) be able to just produce some magical item that's immune to chorae. I'm using the existence of the bag and the chorae that 'Yatwer' gives Sorwheel as the very evidence that it's fake. I'll admit this would be easier to answer if we knew some other info, don't have the books with me at the moment, but for example do chorae send ciphrang back to the Outside? It's just something that seemed like an anomaly given the 'rules' of magic and (my own admittedly limited understanding of) the metaphysics and ontology of Earwa. So then I wondered what could explain it? eta: So yeah, pretty much "wouldn't it be cool if". That Kellhus is orchestrating the Yatwer bit with Sorweel. To find out if he's an enemy or not, I suppose. Wouldn't even have to be Sorwheel - Kellhus could be just trying to goad Zoronga into an assassination attempt in order to draw Zeum into all out war - although I admit there are many easier ways of doing this, like, just killing Zoronga and sending his head back to Zeum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 IMO Kellhus wants Zeum to overrun the Empire but only at a specific point. I suspect the ideal is Zeum comes to support Fayanal but on their way over there is complete awareness that the No-God walks once more. Also, a minor point - when do babies get souls? And what is it about the No-God that can take the animating "vitalist" spark from the fetuses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Also, a minor point - when do babies get souls? And what is it about the No-God that can take the animating "vitalist" spark from the fetuses? Souls are subjectivities from the Outside. The world, according to Ajencis, is dominated by objectivity of the God-as-onta. The Onta, as well as being alterable from within by sorcery, is permeable from without by souls and other subjectivities, e.g. the Hundred and other ciphrang. My theory would be that the No-God constitutes a new objectivity that displaces and prevents the entry of further subjectivity into the world. Being antithetical to the Onta, which has objective meaning written into it base constitution (which is why sorcery works through the alteration of such meanings), the No-God is constitutive of an objective meaninglessness. Thus Bakker's whole shebang about reversing the traditional bildungsroman theme of bringing meaning to a meaningless world. The No-God therefore remakes the meaningful, ensouled world of Earwa into a meaningless, soulless world (apart from the 144,000) like our own, but in the process no new ensoulment, therefore no more babies. That's one interpretation anyway. Doesn't fit well with the use of chorae (which constitute the objectivity of the God) as a defence mechanism for the antithetical objectivity of the No-God, but I'm sure there's a way to work around that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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