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Bakker XXXVIII: Where The Posters Are Damned


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Because if the Hundred are just ciphrang, they shouldn't (I'll admit that takes some kind of assumption on the nature of magic) be able to just produce some magical item that's immune to chorae.  I'm using the existence of the bag and the chorae that 'Yatwer' gives Sorwheel as the very evidence that it's fake.  I'll admit this would be easier to answer if we knew some other info, don't have the books with me at the moment, but for example do chorae send ciphrang back to the Outside?

 

It's just something that seemed like an anomaly given the 'rules' of magic and (my own admittedly limited understanding of) the metaphysics and ontology of Earwa.  So then I wondered what could explain it?   

 

 

eta: So yeah, pretty much "wouldn't it be cool if". 

Eh, all I remember is that regular chorae use didn't send the wight in the mountain back - because he brought his frame with him (he brought the thing it'd send him back to with him, thus no effect) - until Mimara did X with it (I'm almost thinking some kind of healing/forgiveness magic...but that's another subject).

 

Yatwer seems to be able to express herself enough to modify ages - I'm guessing she can bring her frame with her doings as well. Besides, how much does it take - the scarlet spires have slaves to carry chorae for them. So Yatwer maybe has a slave put the chorae in place, does some magic around the mundane that carries it...ok, I forget the specifics of the scene. Maybe those with kindle magic could quote? Please :)

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Souls are subjectivities from the Outside. The world, according to Ajencis, is dominated by objectivity of the God-as-onta. The Onta, as well as being alterable from within by sorcery, is permeable from without by souls and other subjectivities, e.g. the Hundred and other ciphrang. My theory would be that the No-God constitutes a new objectivity that displaces and prevents the entry of further subjectivity into the world. Being antithetical to the Onta, which has objective meaning written into it base constitution (which is why sorcery works through the alteration of such meanings), the No-God is constitutive of an objective meaninglessness. Thus Bakker's whole shebang about reversing the traditional bildungsroman theme of bringing meaning to a meaningless world. The No-God therefore remakes the meaningful, ensouled world of Earwa into a meaningless, soulless world (apart from the 144,000) like our own, but in the process no new ensoulment, therefore no more babies.

The consult can't remember genetic manipulation, but they can still get this shit! Why u so scatty, consult!?

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The Goddess smiles The old man crouches over her, frozen like a man caught in the commission of some obscenity. Something shivers through the hideous earth. Scabrous arms burst from the soil to either side Clotted bones. Knotted worms. The slave stumbles back, staggers into the clutch of the horrified King. They watch the Goddess exhume her own corpse. She trowels away muck and viscous slop, reveals the ivory comb of her ribs. She reaches into her muddy abdomen, excavates her cadaverous womb The very ground croaks and groans beneath them, the complaint of some cosmological hingeexistence pried too far from its essential frame. She draws a pouch from the pit below her stomach, raises it pinched in fingers of filth and bone. She smiles. Tears of blood stream from her earthen eyes. The watching men gasp for the sorrow of a mothers endless Giving So many. So many children born So many taken. The King trips to his knees. He crawls forward to receive her Gift, crawls with the shame of an inconstant son. He snatches the pouch as if from a leper. It lies stiff and cold in his fingers, like a dead mans tongue. He scarcely sees it for his Mothers dirt glare. He looks back to the slave, who sobs for joy and horrorHe turns back to his Goddess But She is no more, nothing but a grotesque face, a monstrosity, moulded above an overturned grave. What just happened?the King cries to the slave. What just happened?The slave says nothing. He climbs to his feet, hobbles from the macabre clearing back into the dead with an invalids gait. He stumbles up a slope of pitched carcasses. He pauses before a spear that juts from the buzzing summit. The King calls out to him, beseeching The slave places his chin upon the spear point, lifts his hands high in heavenly supplication. What the Mother gives he cries out to the King. You must take!He smiles fleetingly, as if regretting things both inevitable and criminal. Then Porsparian nesh Varalti drops. He never reaches his knees. He hangs, rather, from the inside crown of his skull, then slowly tips to his side. He seems to vanish among the strewn forms. One more dead skinny.


That's where Porsparian finds the pouch...
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So mimara could hide her chorae in her...

Hiding your voice is like cunnilingus, the PLACE of ecstatic oblivion?


Perhaps, but I doubt most have a tongue long enough for the purpose.

Interestingly enough the pattern on the pouch:

He pulled the pouch from his belt. The muck had dried to ash about its edges. He brushed it away with trembling fingers, noticing for the first time the dizzying patterns burned into the age-old leather. Crescents. Crescents within crescents.
Broken circles, he decided, glimpsing the gold-thread circumfixes embroidered along the hem of his own tunic.
Broken circumfixes.
He tugged free the clip of chapped bronze that held its mouth closed. He already knew what it contained, for as King of Sakarpus, he was also High Keeper of the Hoard. Nevertheless, he tipped the pouch so that he might hold it in his callused palm: a sphere of ancient iron...
A Chorae. A holy Tear of God.


"That motif... the triple crescent..."
"What about it?" he asked, far too aware of the proximity of her gaze to his groin.
At last her eyes climbed to meet his own. Her look was cool, remote in the way of old and prideful widows.
"That is the Far Antique mark of my family... the Anasûrimbor of Trysë."


This does seem to support a possibility of something to do with Kellhus.
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So rereading the JE, there are three dreams that I remember where Celmomas tells Seswatha about Ishual, all with something suspicious that may be big clues.

 

"I have built a place," the High-King said.

[...]

The High-King moved a stone, a move that Seswatha had not foreseen, and the rules changed in the most disastrous way possible. What had been opportunity found itself twisted inside out, stamped into something as closed and as occluded as the future.

Achamian was almost relieved…

"I have built a place… a refuge…" Anasurimbor Celmomas said. "A place where my line can outlive me."

 

 

I posted this one before but I think that the the stone that Cel moves symbolizes him building Ishual. In other words, Seswatha did not want Cel's line to survive.

 

The second dream,

 

"Seeds," Celmomas replied, his eyes smiling over the rim of his cup. The golden wolf's head braided into the centre of his beard seemed to glower from beneath his wrist.

"Seeds?"

[..]

Seswatha studied him with new concern. "The premonitions of kings are never to be taken lightly. You know that much, old friend."

"Which is why I have built a ref-"

The creak of bronze hinges. They both yanked their gazes to the shadows that concealed the entrance. The fires pulled and twirled in the tripods set to either side of the game-table. Achamian heard the scuff of little feet, then suddenly Nau-Cayuti hurtled into his father's arms and lap.

"Whoopa!" Celmomas cried. "What warrior leaps blindly into the arms of his foe?"

The boy chortled in the grinding way of children fending fingers that tickle. "You're not my foe, Da!"

"Wait till you get older!"

Nau-Cayuti grinned with clenched teeth, struggled against his father's ringed hand, growling as much as laughing. The boy surprised him by jerking and twisting like a summer pike, clutched his white-woollen robe in an effort to brace his feet on his father's thighs. Celmomas pulled back, nearly toppled in his chair.

Achamian roared with laughter. "A wolf, my King! The boy's a wolf! You better hope he's never your enemy!"

 

Celmomas was joking there as far as he knows, but as far as I'm concerned this is some massive foreshadowing that Nau-Cayuti somehow ends up on the Consult's side. Maybe he is the NG as some say, or that he just joins them after seeing the IF.

 

And the third,

 

"A king," Celmomas was saying, "stands before his people in all things, Cayu. A king rides at the fore. This is why he must always make ready, always prepare. For his foe is ever the future. Condic marauders on our eastern frontier. Assassins in an embassy of Shir. Sranc. Pestilence… Calamity awaits us all, even you, my son.

"Some petition astrologers, soothsayers, false prophets in all their guises. Low men, mean men, who exchange words of comfort for gold. Me, I put my faith in stone, in iron, in blood, and in secrecy-secrecy above all!-for these things serve in all times. All times! The day words conquer the future is the day the dead begin to speak."

He turned to Seswatha. The wolf's head braided into his beard flashed in the glowering light.

"This, my friend-this is why I built Ishual. For Kuniuri. For House Anasurimbor. It is our final bulwark against catastrophe… Against the darkest future."

Achamian placed the scroll-case on the table before him, so that it seemed the prize of the pieces arrayed on the benjuka plate beyond it. He looked up to meet his chieftain's pensive gaze, found himself pondering the archaic script. "Doom," it read, "should you find me broken."

"The inscription… What does it mean?"

"Keep it, old friend. Make it your deepest secret."

"These dreams you have been having… You must tell me more!"

The ages seemed to lie like a mountain above them, centuries compressed into stone, hope suffocated beneath the heaping of generations. Strangers warred and screamed… Somewhere, in the catacombs with them.

Toe! Toe to the line!

"Keep it," Anasurimbor Celmomas said. "Bury it in the Coffers."

 

 

I think there is something in that speech from Celmomas, not sure what it is though... But what I don't get is that line about the dreams. Is that something that Achamian is confusing with this current dream or is Seswatha asking Celmomas about some dreams that the latter has been having? Because that would be big.

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I posted this one before but I think that the the stone that Cel moves symbolizes him building Ishual. In other words, Seswatha did not want Cel's line to survive.


This would seem to support Seswatha sending the Dunyain there then.
 

Celmomas was joking there as far as he knows, but as far as I'm concerned this is some massive foreshadowing that Nau-Cayuti somehow ends up on the Consult's side. Maybe he is the NG as some say, or that he just joins them after seeing the IF.


Indeed, that is probable, it is doubtful that the Consult had Iëva poison him and deliver him to them just for shits and giggles.
 

I think there is something in that speech from Celmomas, not sure what it is though... But what I don't get is that line about the dreams. Is that something that Achamian is confusing with this current dream or is Seswatha asking Celmomas about some dreams that the latter has been having? Because that would be big.



That's a good question. I think it is dreams Cel was having.
 

Damn... did I imagine that one?


Maybe, or maybe I forgot.
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Haha, it is not a wall of text in the book.

So, it seems that the pouch is an analogue for a womb though.

 

Ah good catch - in an enchanted world such symbolism could have genuine relevance/efficacy. I wonder if the Psukhe works in this way and if so does that mean Titirga's power is unattainable by Kellhus? Do you have to have an emotional/aesthetic response to the Real for symbolic magic to work?

 

On the other hand, it seems this magic via signifiers is what makes the Agognosis weaker than the Gnosis....

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Souls are subjectivities from the Outside. The world, according to Ajencis, is dominated by objectivity of the God-as-onta. The Onta, as well as being alterable from within by sorcery, is permeable from without by souls and other subjectivities, e.g. the Hundred and other ciphrang. My theory would be that the No-God constitutes a new objectivity that displaces and prevents the entry of further subjectivity into the world. Being antithetical to the Onta, which has objective meaning written into it base constitution (which is why sorcery works through the alteration of such meanings), the No-God is constitutive of an objective meaninglessness. Thus Bakker's whole shebang about reversing the traditional bildungsroman theme of bringing meaning to a meaningless world. The No-God therefore remakes the meaningful, ensouled world of Earwa into a meaningless, soulless world (apart from the 144,000) like our own, but in the process no new ensoulment, therefore no more babies. 

 

That's one interpretation anyway. Doesn't fit well with the use of chorae (which constitute the objectivity of the God) as a defence mechanism for the antithetical objectivity of the No-God, but I'm sure there's a way to work around that.

 

Trying to edit my prior post and failing.

 

Sorry I missed this. I sort of agree with this, though I think the No-God is more the God dragged into the limitations of corporeal Inward reality which includes the [limit and] distinction between watcher and watched, subject and object, etc. (Consider the hybridization of subject & object in supernatural metaphysics from varied traditions - the "subtle body"&  "subtle worlds").

 

I don't quite get objective meaninglessness as a concept though. Do you mean the No-God is an avatar/harbinger of the end of the enchanted nature of Earwa? I can see it being a harbinger but as a literal incarnation it seems to depend on the enchanted nature of Earwa to exist. That said I agree "souls" seem to be the capacity for subjectivity and causality outside of mechanism (though much of the text seems to argue even this benefit is, for most people, drowned under conditioning) and that the final work of the No-God is to ensure the phyiscal/material closure of the world.

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Ah good catch - in an enchanted world such symbolism could have genuine relevance/efficacy. I wonder if the Psukhe works in this way and if so does that mean Titirga's power is unattainable by Kellhus? Do you have to have an emotional/aesthetic response to the Real for symbolic magic to work?
 
On the other hand, it seems this magic via signifiers is what makes the Agognosis weaker than the Gnosis....


I'm not sure what you mean about the Psûkhe, but I think Titirga's power-level is flat out unobtainable by realistically anyone. His ability is certainly a confluence of multiple factors; his childhood blindness, the madness he experienced while Canting, his intellect, his unwavering self-assurance.

Kellhus is pure reason. Titirga is madness harnessed.
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I'm not sure what you mean about the Psûkhe, but I think Titirga's power-level is flat out unobtainable by realistically anyone. His ability is certainly a confluence of multiple factors; his childhood blindness, the madness he experienced while Canting, his intellect, his unwavering self-assurance.

Kellhus is pure reason. Titirga is madness harnessed.

 

I mean the Psukhe has spells in the way other magical practices do - it has at the least combat magic, levitation, and magic dedicated to communication. There's also the Third Sight and that Shadow World Akka & Xin traveled through where the Cish can apparently see. [Oh, also bonding with (intrinsically holy?) snakes to be ones eyes.]

 

But how does one leash the recollection of the Whole to specific tasks without sacrificing the divine holistic sense to the limitations of abstraction? We know they use language of some variety, because the Chorae affect the Cish. My guess there was that the Psukhe works through symbolic resonance in the same way Yatwer can make a womb out of a bag of cloth.

 

On the one hand working magic as the gods do would explain the lack of a mark, OTOH the problem is that the Agognosis seems to rely on symbolic resonance as well.

 

edit: I like the idea that madness harnessed is the path to arcane power by the way. Need to chew on that tho both Tit and Cleric are seeming examples. One might even say Big Moe shows the problem with a lack of passion, though he presumably would've been a master of the Gnosis.

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I mean the Psukhe has spells in the way other magical practices do - it has at the least combat magic, levitation, and magic dedicated to communication. There's also the Third Sight and that Shadow World Akka & Xin traveled through where the Cish can apparently see. [Oh, also bonding with (intrinsically holy?) snakes to be ones eyes.]
 
But how does one leash the recollection of the Whole to specific tasks without sacrificing the divine holistic sense to the limitations of abstraction? We know they use language of some variety, because the Chorae affect the Cish. My guess there was that the Psukhe works through symbolic resonance in the same way Yatwer can make a womb out of a bag of cloth.
 
On the one hand working magic as the gods do would explain the lack of a mark, OTOH the problem is that the Agognosis seems to rely on symbolic resonance as well.
 
edit: I like the idea that madness harnessed is the path to arcane power by the way. Need to chew on that tho both Tit and Cleric are seeming examples. One might even say Big Moe shows the problem with a lack of passion, though he presumably would've been a master of the Gnosis.


Psukhe turns on speaker intention


For the Cishaurim, it's the THOUGHT, and not the utterance that is key, as it is in traditional sorcery. The Chorae are each inscribed with
metaphysical contradictions, impossible propositions, that undo thoughts as readily as they undo utterances


The issue of the Chorae threshold is also broached in TWP. There is, however, a limited grey zone, consisting of arcane keys, ciphers, and so on, which one of the Few can utter without suffering the bruise or Mark of sorcery. It's the Mark that determines whom the Chorae can kill. If one of the Few can recognize you, then so can those accursed Trinkets...
---
They're almost as fatal to the Cishaurim as well, though the mechanics differ. The Inrithi
would be in a whole heap of trouble otherwise.


Quotes from Scott, from the old, old TSB.

Make of them what you will. The idea that the Pshûke is God-given I think is totally off base. The idea that it is God-given is what is important. The intent is God's will, therefor the result arrives sans-Mark.
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Quotes from Scott, from the old, old TSB.

Make of them what you will. The idea that the Pshûke is God-given I think is totally off base. The idea that it is God-given is what is important. The intent is God's will, therefor the result arrives sans-Mark.

 

I'm unclear on what you're trying to say - specifically because of the first and second bolded sentences.

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I'm unclear on what you're trying to say - specifically because of the first and second bolded sentences.


I kind of misunderstood what you were talking about, but I was saying I don't believe the Solitary God actually has any working in the Psûkhe. It is only because the Cishaurim believe it is The Solitary God's will that the 'sorcery' they work has no Mark.

My point with the quotes though was about you saying "We know they use language of some variety, because the Chorae affect the Cish." It seems from what Scott said that Chorae aren't limited to undoing language, but can undue thought as well.
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