lokisnow Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 And think on how it sort of undoes Mimara when she passes through it, her thoughts about it are first unraveled and she arrives on the far side of contradiction. Serious question I assume that this opened the gates, which has is why gin yurisis appears momentarily after she does so and I also assume she changed the things he he complains are changed with all the doors being different. I do wonder if she could only activate the chorae in this way within the topos ground zero of the slave pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 I kind of misunderstood what you were talking about, but I was saying I don't believe the Solitary God actually has any working in the Psûkhe. It is only because the Cishaurim believe it is The Solitary God's will that the 'sorcery' they work has no Mark. My point with the quotes though was about you saying "We know they use language of some variety, because the Chorae affect the Cish." It seems from what Scott said that Chorae aren't limited to undoing language, but can undue thought as well. Aren't thoughts expressed in language? Or perhaps the extent to which thoughts are not verbal is what makes the difference between a sorcerer salting and a Cish disappearing in a flash of nacre light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Aren't thoughts expressed in language? Or perhaps the extent to which thoughts are not verbal is what makes the difference between a sorcerer salting and a Cish disappearing in a flash of nacre light.I would actually agree that they would be expressed as language.Perhaps that's the catch to the Pshuke though, thought without language?There has to be some more to the Pshuke than just "really meaning it." Otherwise it would have been discovered long before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 And think on how it sort of undoes Mimara when she passes through it, her thoughts about it are first unraveled and she arrives on the far side of contradiction. Serious question I assume that this opened the gates, which has is why gin yurisis appears momentarily after she does so and I also assume she changed the things he he complains are changed with all the doors being different. I do wonder if she could only activate the chorae in this way within the topos ground zero of the slave pit. Is that really how it goes down? That is a super great catch if so. My foggy memory was that the Wight showed up first, the topoi providing the opening to the gates with no one guarding them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.H. Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Is that really how it goes down? That is a super great catch if so. My foggy memory was that the Wight showed up first, the topoi providing the opening to the gates with no one guarding them. Yes, he is right about the chronology, but I fear the rest of what he is saying kind of goes over my head. Relevant passage:While they recover themselves, Incariol dispenses Qirri, an ancient Nonman remedy. Mimara finds herself staring at her Chorae. It is an abomination in her sorcerous eyes, yet she persists gazing. The Judging Eye opens, and the thing is miraculously transformed. Suddenly she sees it for what it truly is: a white burning Tear of God. She turns to Somandutta, the scalper who has become her protector with the Wizard incapacitated. But he sees nothing...Then she notices the stranger sitting in their midst.Incariol recognizes the figure as the shade of Gin'yursis, the ancient Nonman King of Cil-Aujas. The wraith dons the Nonman as if he were clothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Fyi, the above is from the book 5 recap, iirc. From tje, note in particular how her thought is unraveled first.It’s like thumbing a deep bruise at first, and she almost revels its odd, almost honey sweetness. But the sensation unravels, opens into an ache that swells about wincing serrations, as if teeth were chewing their own mouth through sealed muscle and skin. The violence spreads. The clubs begin falling, and her body rebels down to its rooted bowel, gagging at memories of salt. Emptiness itself …Lying cupped in her palm, a sheering void, throwing hooks about her, a million lacerating stings. She grunts spit between clenched teeth, grins like a dying ape. Anguish wracks her, as deep as deep, but the smallest nub of her remains, an untouched sip, still conscious of the Wizard lying in her periphery, and it sees that he is the same yet transfigured, an old ailing man, and a corpse boiled in the fires of damnation … The Judging Eye has opened. She feels it leaning through her worldly eyes, pressing forward, throwing off the agony like rotted clothes, snuffing fact from sight, drawing out the sanctity and the sin. With terrible fixation it stares into the oblivion spilling from her palm … And somehow, impossibly, passes through. She blinks on the far side of contradiction, her face and shoulders pulled back in a warm wind, a breath, a premonition of summer rain. And she sees it, a point of luminous white, a certainty, shining out from the pit that blackens her grasp. A voice rises, a voice without word or tone, drowsy with compassion, and the light grows and grows, shrinking the abyss to a rind, to the false foil that it is, burning to dust, and the glory, the magnificence, shines forth, radiant, blinding …And she holds all …In her hand she holds it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Fyi, the above is from the book 5 recap, iirc. From tje, note in particular how her thought is unraveled first. I posted this before, but my impression from that passage is that she experiences damnation and then comes through it to salvation. It is striking once that thought is in your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I would actually agree that they would be expressed as language. Perhaps that's the catch to the Pshuke though, thought without language? There has to be some more to the Pshuke than just "really meaning it." Otherwise it would have been discovered long before. I think the idea that they really mean it is not necessarily (or at least completely) about the strength of willed intention but rather the alignment of one's desire with the Real aka "Onta". How close one's abstraction/reification of the onta/real is from the onta is where I think the Mark comes into play, with the Psukhe being a means of directly altering the "world at its joints". Yet if the chorae work against them then it seems there is some kind of linguistic aspect to Cish magic since (IIRC) Bakker said the Aporos' efficacy comes from exploiting paradoxes that arise in varied grammars. In the past I suggested Bakker might be invoking (contentious) concept of Chomsky's Universal Grammar in the same way he used the (contentious) argument about human understanding of paradox showing human minds aren't computable. So the Psukhe is lingual but because it utilizes the part of humans that is (supposedly) hard wired for language it's preverbal. Admittedly this is all rabid conjecture. On a previous point, I don't think the Cish belief that they are doing God's will is what prevents a Mark. After all, the entire Mandate and probably much of the Swayal are in the belief that they serve the Messiah but they end up leaving a Mark. I can't grasp the idea of the Mark as a sign of sinfulness, but then I think that might be part of Bakker's choice of setting - scriptural worlds are terrible places where sin is whatever God decides because those moral primitives are baked into the universe since the start of Creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Huh, if with the Judging eye open Mimara sees oblivion spilling from the chorae in her hand. Nonmen worship oblivion, there has to be a connection there, I just can't figure that stuff outout, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gasp of Many Reeds Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 I don't quite get objective meaninglessness as a concept though. Do you mean the No-God is an avatar/harbinger of the end of the enchanted nature of Earwa? I can see it being a harbinger but as a literal incarnation it seems to depend on the enchanted nature of Earwa to exist. That said I agree "souls" seem to be the capacity for subjectivity and causality outside of mechanism (though much of the text seems to argue even this benefit is, for most people, drowned under conditioning) and that the final work of the No-God is to ensure the phyiscal/material closure of the world. As I said before, speculative. But if the Onta is alterable by sorcery and permeable by subjectivities from the Outside, this implies to me that it may be affected by said subjectivity, despite its greater objectivity than the realms of the Outside. This also explains why meaningfulness can have causal effects within the world. The No-God, I suggest, as an absolute objectivity is impermeable to the causal effects of meaningfulness and acts to impose a shield impermeable to souls between the world and Outside. My theory would be that if the No-God were able to succeed, the metaphysics of Earwa would become as our physics are, a world were meaning has no influence on causation, so a world which may be said to be objectively meaningless. This would probably imply that sorcery as well as the migration of souls would be brought to an end. I'm not sure the theory works 100% to be honest, but I think some elements of it work well with what Bakker has said before about his intentions for the series (which lends further weight to the theory of Kellhus as Antichrist if he is the one to bring meaninglessness to a meaningful world). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sologdin Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Its like thumbing a deep bruise at first, and she almost revels its odd, almost honey sweetness uh oh. am seeing an unfortuitous correspondence of cause there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Its like thumbing a deep bruise at first, and she almost revels its odd, almost honey sweetness uh oh. am seeing an unfortuitous correspondence of cause there. Hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 The Goddess smiles The old man crouches over her, frozen like a man caught in the commission of some obscenity. Something shivers through the hideous earth. Scabrous arms burst from the soil to either side Clotted bones. Knotted worms. The slave stumbles back, staggers into the clutch of the horrified King. They watch the Goddess exhume her own corpse. She trowels away muck and viscous slop, reveals the ivory comb of her ribs. She reaches into her muddy abdomen, excavates her cadaverous womb The very ground croaks and groans beneath them, the complaint of some cosmological hingeexistence pried too far from its essential frame. She draws a pouch from the pit below her stomach, raises it pinched in fingers of filth and bone. She smiles. Tears of blood stream from her earthen eyes. The watching men gasp for the sorrow of a mothers endless Giving So many. So many children born So many taken. The King trips to his knees. He crawls forward to receive her Gift, crawls with the shame of an inconstant son. He snatches the pouch as if from a leper. It lies stiff and cold in his fingers, like a dead mans tongue. He scarcely sees it for his Mothers dirt glare. He looks back to the slave, who sobs for joy and horrorHe turns back to his Goddess But She is no more, nothing but a grotesque face, a monstrosity, moulded above an overturned grave. What just happened?the King cries to the slave. What just happened?The slave says nothing. He climbs to his feet, hobbles from the macabre clearing back into the dead with an invalids gait. He stumbles up a slope of pitched carcasses. He pauses before a spear that juts from the buzzing summit. The King calls out to him, beseeching The slave places his chin upon the spear point, lifts his hands high in heavenly supplication. What the Mother gives he cries out to the King. You must take!He smiles fleetingly, as if regretting things both inevitable and criminal. Then Porsparian nesh Varalti drops. He never reaches his knees. He hangs, rather, from the inside crown of his skull, then slowly tips to his side. He seems to vanish among the strewn forms. One more dead skinny. That's where Porsparian finds the pouch... Hmm, but it is rather like the white in the mountain - it even mentions a frame as well. Traditional use of chorae (ie, 'it 'em wit it!) does not work on those who bring their frame with them. She's quite capable of carrying one. Hmmm...possibly only with perspective does gods tears suddenly make everything go *poof*. Those who bring their frame with them lack perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Hmm, but it is rather like the white in the mountain - it even mentions a frame as well. Traditional use of chorae (ie, 'it 'em wit it!) does not work on those who bring their frame with them. She's quite capable of carrying one. Hmmm...possibly only with perspective does gods tears suddenly make everything go *poof*. Those who bring their frame with them lack perspective. Ah I really like that last sentence. It could end up being the WLW's undoing if it can only see a future in accordance with its own frame. Fits well Bakker's theme of ignorance of ignorance being our undoing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 There's no much new under the sun in the Bakker thread's, but I just noticed something in TTT and wonder if it's come up before. So Seswatha was supposedly expelled from Atrithau at some point (maybe during the Apocalypse?). Can anything be gleaned from this? Was Atrithau's supposedly anarcane ground related to a bias against sorcery? Who else had a bias against sorcery? The Dunyain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 There's no much new under the sun in the Bakker thread's, but I just noticed something in TTT and wonder if it's come up before. So Seswatha was supposedly expelled from Atrithau at some point (maybe during the Apocalypse?). Can anything be gleaned from this? Was Atrithau's supposedly anarcane ground related to a bias against sorcery? Who else had a bias against sorcery? The Dunyain. I don't know, but Akka says the Mandate had a mission there also.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Ah I really like that last sentence. It could end up being the WLW's undoing if it can only see a future in accordance with its own frame. Fits well Bakker's theme of ignorance of ignorance being our undoing. Well as others pointed out (and I, in a failure to read like a lawyer, missed), the WLW sees himself killing the aspect emperor. Whether that role as moved on to someone else other than Kellhus at that point...? But within the frame, it's exactly what he/yatwer intended to do. But it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentRoamer Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Triskane the Nonmen were also biased against some forms of sorcery to an extent. We know they banned the Aporos and I have always assumed Anarcane Ground related to some sort of anti-sorcerous Aporos meddling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 23, 2015 Share Posted August 23, 2015 Triskane the Nonmen were also biased against some forms of sorcery to an extent. We know they banned the Aporos and I have always assumed Anarcane Ground related to some sort of anti-sorcerous Aporos meddling. Are we ever told where, geographically speaking, the Aporetics were from? Or is it just implied that they were somewhere in the ancient north? Maybe Atrithau is where they ended up after they were banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I went searching in the TTT glossary and there isn't an entry for the Aporos..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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