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Bakker XXXVIII: Where The Posters Are Damned


Madness

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"Some petition astrologers, soothsayers, false prophets in all their guises. Low men, mean men, who exchange words of comfort for gold. Me, I put my faith in stone, in iron, in blood, and in secrecy-secrecy above all!-for these things serve in all times. All times! The day words conquer the future is the day the dead begin to speak."

 

 

Going back to this quote from Celmomas, I find it interesting that Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS, which is what he's saying there, most explicitly in the last sentence. I wonder how that factors in with the fact that he made The Prophecy.

 

Anyway, so this question has been bugging me for some time... why did Celmomas create a map to Ishual and why did he hide it in the Coffers? He says to Seswatha that he built Ishual as a hiding place "in case the war goes wrong." But if the war goes wrong why would want to have a map to your hiding place in the legendary sohonc treasure trove? Which is to say in a place that's most certainly going to be searched by someone when Sauglish falls. And how is it that the Consult did not find the map in it anyway?

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Going back to this quote from Celmomas, I find it interesting that Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS, which is what he's saying there, most explicitly in the last sentence. I wonder how that factors in with the fact that he made The Prophecy.
 
Anyway, so this question has been bugging me for some time... why did Celmomas create a map to Ishual and why did he hide it in the Coffers? He says to Seswatha that he built Ishual as a hiding place "in case the war goes wrong." But if the war goes wrong why would want to have a map to your hiding place in the legendary sohonc treasure trove? Which is to say in a place that's most certainly going to be searched by someone when Sauglish falls. And how is it that the Consult did not find the map in it anyway?


Huh, good question.
But to the last, what makes you think they didnt?
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Unlikely but possible... Kellhus wants Achamian at Ishual, Kellhus knows where Ishual is, so he draws a map to it, hides it in the coffers and sends Achamian some fake dreams where Celmomas tells Seswatha to hide a map to Ishual in the coffers.

 

Although those dreams seem a bit more significant than that.

 

Those are Seswatha's dreams we get that from, and he can manipulate those however he wants.

 

 

We don't know that for sure. Also remember that in the dream Seswatha asks Celmomas about some dreams that the latter has been getting. It's possible that the plan to build Ishual wasn't Cel's idea but the idea of someone who was sending him dreams at the time. My wild guess is that Seswatha was basically outplayed by Celmomas and/or whoever is sending him the dreams. Cel tells Seswatha that his line will live on in Ishual, Seswatha assumes that Cel's familly will simply continue to breed there. It never occurs to him that what Cel meant by filling Ishual with seeds is that he plans to make it a sperm bank.

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We don't know for sure when Ishual was leveled, but presumably it was before Achamian found the map at Sauglish.  Would the Consult have left the map there after finding it?  Can't see why.  Kellhus could have, but that's different. 

 

I think it stands to reason that the Consult could have found Ishaul simply on account of learning about the Dunyain during the first trilogy and then scouring the north to find it.  No need for the map.

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"Some petition astrologers, soothsayers, false prophets in all their guises. Low men, mean men, who exchange words of comfort for gold. Me, I put my faith in stone, in iron, in blood, and in secrecy-secrecy above all!-for these things serve in all times. All times! The day words conquer the future is the day the dead begin to speak."

 

Going back to this quote from Celmomas, I find it interesting that Celmomas thinks that prophecies are BS, which is what he's saying there, most explicitly in the last sentence. I wonder how that factors in with the fact that he made The Prophecy.

 

Anyway, so this question has been bugging me for some time... why did Celmomas create a map to Ishual and why did he hide it in the Coffers? He says to Seswatha that he built Ishual as a hiding place "in case the war goes wrong." But if the war goes wrong why would want to have a map to your hiding place in the legendary sohonc treasure trove? Which is to say in a place that's most certainly going to be searched by someone when Sauglish falls. And how is it that the Consult did not find the map in it anyway?

 

I think this quote from Celmomas contains a fair amount of lamp-shading.  

 

First off, he mentions false prophets, men that exchange words of comfort for gold.  This puts me in mind of the Bardic priest (very likely the consult agent that took the plague to Ishual) pops up in one these dreams.  Celmomas must have suspected this at least.  The Consult waged a pretty constant and successful campaign of intrigue and treachery (Ieva, the burning of the White Fleet etc etc). 

 

It also suggests Celmomas' animist beliefs.

 

Let's not forget that the High King met Seswatha at the Sohonc where they presumably both studied the Cuniuric philosophy behind gnostic sorcery.  

Thus, Celmomas would be well aware that the onta is comprised of Meaning - which resides in stone, iron and blood.  Remember, the words of sorcerers are lies too, just powerful lies.  True prophecy must come from Meaning.

Also, recall that he was twin-souled like his name-sake, lil Kel, so he may well hear the dead speaking as a matter of course.

 

I believe that he 'buries' the map as a secret in this scene because he already knows the 'white-luck' events of the Celmoman prophecy - he only reveals another part of it to Seswatha when he dies.

Which obviously relates the Anasurimbor Heir from the prologue as his 'seed'.

 

Who's the traveller at the beginning of TJE.that tracks down the Skin Eaters? Just some.guy Kellhus sends to make sure they hook up with achamian?

 

I'm pretty sure it was Sarl.  He's not shown with the skineaters in TJE prologue, yet when Akka meets them Sarl is acting as Captain's frontman.

Later in WLW he drops more than one hint that he used to be in the Apparati or ranking Zau-dunyani. This also explains why Ironsoul doesn't kill him as a sobber

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I'm pretty sure it was Sarl.  He's not shown with the skineaters in TJE prologue, yet when Akka meets them Sarl is acting as Captain's frontman.

Later in WLW he drops more than one hint that he used to be in the Apparati or ranking Zau-dunyani. This also explains why Ironsoul doesn't kill him as a sobber

Could you point to anything he specifically says that suggests this?

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Let's not forget that the High King met Seswatha at the Sohonc where they presumably both studied the Cuniuric philosophy behind gnostic sorcery.  

Thus, Celmomas would be well aware that the onta is comprised of Meaning - which resides in stone, iron and blood.  Remember, the words of sorcerers are lies too, just powerful lies.  True prophecy must come from Meaning.

 

 

So what did he mean by "the day words conquer the future is the day the dead begin to speak"? Now that I think about, his dead son was speaking to him the day he made the prophecy to Seswatha...

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ZC; I think that's just some general lamp-shading via allusion rather than a specific reference.

 

GoMR; after Akka gets hog tied, Mimara starts manipulating and prying the skin-eaters for information.  There is a scene where she gets Sarl talking by offering a Khellusion benediction and he says something like, "Bless you girl, it's been so long."  That leads to her confronting Ironsoul, leading to the significant plot point that the Captain and Sarl are Believers.

 

That is the most straightforward clue, but I'm fairly sure you can pick up a few others from Mimara's and Akka's PoVs on a reread.

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Hi all. This is my first post on the forum. I've been lurking for quite some time now, and between browsing the Bakker threads here and on Madness' Second Apocalypse forum I've grown familiar enough with the fandom to know what a nerdanel is. I've read the books along with some scattered rereads and frequent visits to confirm theories and things I've seen on the communities surrounding the series. I have a few questions, just things that I don't remember ever seeing answered while I lurked.

 

Just a couple of my own thoughts on some aspects of the series and some of the common theories I've seen tossed around:

 

1. Is there any comprehensive analysis by someone of Achamian's dreams? I recall reading that Scott at one point mentioned that every one of Achamian's dreams somehow reflected the greater narrative. I couldn't find it just now as I perused through my copies of the books, but I feel like I remember picking up on a reread that in either TDTCB or TWP Achamian dreams of a library with a dragon in it. I can't recall any other specific examples, but it made me wonder if perhaps the encounter with Wutteat was being foreshadowed.

 

2. Personally, from the clues presented in the narrative and proposed by members of this and Madness' forum, I don't think Moenghus will continue to be involved in the story. I think that the parallel of Inri Sejenus rising at another holy city and his own death being near one (someone articulated this parallel better than I did at some point) is interesting, and I haven't personally discarded the notion of Meppa being related to him somehow, but it would be lazy writing for Moenghus to suddenly be uncovered as responsible for anything in the second trilogy. I personally believe that Moenghus couldn't see beyond the Thousandfold Thought, and that he correctly realized that the trial had broken Kellhus upon their meeting. However, I think that symbolically this represents something more along the lines of how they have both come to the limits of Dunyain's logic ability to parse their world, and Kellhus found a way to surpass that limit.

 

3. As far as opinions go, what do you all think of the relative power levels between the main players? I'm curious what the Consult will have to stop him. Just going on a hunch from the series' overall flavor, I don't think Shae and the Inchoroi twins will be a match for Kellhus' sorcery in a straightup battle (although, considering the Gnosis is a fairly logical sorcerous discipline, I personally think that thousands of years without the Nonman problem of finite memory should have been long enough for the Consult to prepare themselves even for someone like Kellhus). I watched the SA podcast and, while thoughts rapidly branched off from the main idea of the in-series power levels (at least while I listened), some people thought that the Quya of Ishterebinth could probably match Kellhus. This too seems reasonable to me, but it makes me wish we could better stake out Kellhus' limits.

 

4. I once saw the theory proposed that the Captain of the Skin-Eaters was hinted to be a ciphrang. Could anyone point out for me where the books suggest this? I'm very curious because I would have liked to see the captain explored a little more as a character.

 

5. My personal thoughts about certain eventualities of TUC:

Kelmomas' voice is Ajokli, in another expression of the gods' true agency in the world, and his arc is there to eventually lead into him saving his mother from the White-Luck. Also, I realize that his is the only Dunyain infancy we're able to observe, but he seems to be more talented from a younger age than any of the other half-Dunyain.

I think Zeum will support Fanayal and destroy the empire Kellhus has left behind unguarded, and that this is all part of a greater scheme Kellhus has devised which none of the other Dunyain have foreseen and are thus unable to factor into their own lesser plans. I'm not sure what I think about the true purpose of the Great Ordeal, something tells me it is more than just a flesh palanquin for Kellhus to ride into Golgotterath on. 

 

Hm. I actually don't have anything to add besides that at the moment. Anyway! I'm glad to finally be a part of the little gaggle of thinkers that populate these threads and I hope to add something constructive to the discussions that arise here. :) See you on the Slog.

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I think for me moenghus is useful as a heuristic that collapses kellhus' ubermensch aura and allows me to contemplate scenarios in which kellhusian methods are applied to kellhus and he can be equally deconstructed into suffering the same failings and delusions as all the world born he expresses such contempt for. So in this sense I do not really believe moenghus is behind everything, rather the 'sign' moenghus functions as a proxy, ( solve for x, so to speak ) for the possible unknown unknowns; this use of moenghus to assault kellhus' credibility by proxy gives one an equation wherein we can tease out possibilities of just what range of 'signifier' solutions is going to be be possible or probable.
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Hi all. This is my first post on the forum. I've been lurking for quite some time now, and between browsing the Bakker threads here and on Madness' Second Apocalypse forum I've grown familiar enough with the fandom to know what a nerdanel is. I've read the books along with some scattered rereads and frequent visits to confirm theories and things I've seen on the communities surrounding the series. I have a few questions, just things that I don't remember ever seeing answered while I lurked.


Welcome. Feel free to post at the Second-Apocalypse board too if you'd like. If you have trouble registering, just message me here.

Just a couple of my own thoughts on some aspects of the series and some of the common theories I've seen tossed around:

1. Is there any comprehensive analysis by someone of Achamian's dreams? I recall reading that Scott at one point mentioned that every one of Achamian's dreams somehow reflected the greater narrative. I couldn't find it just now as I perused through my copies of the books, but I feel like I remember picking up on a reread that in either TDTCB or TWP Achamian dreams of a library with a dragon in it. I can't recall any other specific examples, but it made me wonder if perhaps the encounter with Wutteat was being foreshadowed.


Well, this has been an idea of mine for a while, the problem is that it is a massive undertaking. I think hardest of all would be making sure to frame each in the context of where it appears in the text (because I am pretty sure this is just as important as the content of each).

Perhaps when I have a bit more time.

2. Personally, from the clues presented in the narrative and proposed by members of this and Madness' forum, I don't think Moenghus will continue to be involved in the story. I think that the parallel of Inri Sejenus rising at another holy city and his own death being near one (someone articulated this parallel better than I did at some point) is interesting, and I haven't personally discarded the notion of Meppa being related to him somehow, but it would be lazy writing for Moenghus to suddenly be uncovered as responsible for anything in the second trilogy. I personally believe that Moenghus couldn't see beyond the Thousandfold Thought, and that he correctly realized that the trial had broken Kellhus upon their meeting. However, I think that symbolically this represents something more along the lines of how they have both come to the limits of Dunyain's logic ability to parse their world, and Kellhus found a way to surpass that limit.


You may well be right on this. I like your idea that Kellhus is beyond TTT, but we hoestly can't really be sure.

3. As far as opinions go, what do you all think of the relative power levels between the main players? I'm curious what the Consult will have to stop him. Just going on a hunch from the series' overall flavor, I don't think Shae and the Inchoroi twins will be a match for Kellhus' sorcery in a straightup battle (although, considering the Gnosis is a fairly logical sorcerous discipline, I personally think that thousands of years without the Nonman problem of finite memory should have been long enough for the Consult to prepare themselves even for someone like Kellhus). I watched the SA podcast and, while thoughts rapidly branched off from the main idea of the in-series power levels (at least while I listened), some people thought that the Quya of Ishterebinth could probably match Kellhus. This too seems reasonable to me, but it makes me wish we could better stake out Kellhus' limits.


Well, I would assert that I don't believe that anyone, individually, is as powerful as Kellhus. However, the body of the whole Quya, or Shae and A&A, could be something of a match for him. We really can't know how powerful each is in a head-to-head sort of way.

4. I once saw the theory proposed that the Captain of the Skin-Eaters was hinted to be a ciphrang. Could anyone point out for me where the books suggest this? I'm very curious because I would have liked to see the captain explored a little more as a character.


I think it's a theory mainly from the fact that he says himself, "he has seen Hell" (i.e. has been there) and the Nonman ambassador telling Kellhus that ciphrang substitutions have happened before with this returning from the Outside.

5. My personal thoughts about certain eventualities of TUC:

Kelmomas' voice is Ajokli, in another expression of the gods' true agency in the world, and his arc is there to eventually lead into him saving his mother from the White-Luck. Also, I realize that his is the only Dunyain infancy we're able to observe, but he seems to be more talented from a younger age than any of the other half-Dunyain.

I think Zeum will support Fanayal and destroy the empire Kellhus has left behind unguarded, and that this is all part of a greater scheme Kellhus has devised which none of the other Dunyain have foreseen and are thus unable to factor into their own lesser plans. I'm not sure what I think about the true purpose of the Great Ordeal, something tells me it is more than just a flesh palanquin for Kellhus to ride into Golgotterath on.


I think that Kellhus realizes that the Empire will be destroyed. In fact, I am pretty sure that is a major part of the plan, because he willfully cuts off communication with them, even for himself, when he could easily still have been in contact.
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am preferring kelhussite for the cool historical association. bring on the war wagons, yo.

Taborite infidel!

3. As far as opinions go, what do you all think of the relative power levels between the main players? I'm curious what the Consult will have to stop him. Just going on a hunch from the series' overall flavor, I don't think Shae and the Inchoroi twins will be a match for Kellhus' sorcery in a straightup battle (although, considering the Gnosis is a fairly logical sorcerous discipline, I personally think that thousands of years without the Nonman problem of finite memory should have been long enough for the Consult to prepare themselves even for someone like Kellhus). I watched the SA podcast and, while thoughts rapidly branched off from the main idea of the in-series power levels (at least while I listened), some people thought that the Quya of Ishterebinth could probably match Kellhus. This too seems reasonable to me, but it makes me wish we could better stake out Kellhus' limits.

Makes me wonder whether we should view the confrontation between Titirga and Shae/Aurang in The False Sun as foreshadowing the coming confrontation between Kellhus and Consult. Kellhus is likely more powerful and has greater mental acumen than any individual member of the Consult, as even with their millennia of experience they are compromised by their madness, but the Consult are experienced in exploiting the shortcomings of otherwise more powerful beings (of which, as lockesnow argues, Kellhus as many). 

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Taborite infidel!
Makes me wonder whether we should view the confrontation between Titirga and Shae/Aurang in The False Sun as foreshadowing the coming confrontation between Kellhus and Consult. Kellhus is likely more powerful and has greater mental acumen than any individual member of the Consult, as even with their millennia of experience they are compromised by their madness, but the Consult are experienced in exploiting the shortcomings of otherwise more powerful beings (of which, as lockesnow argues, Kellhus as many).


Yeah, I think Shae is really intelligent, but more so crazy and crafty (and that was 2000 years ago). I think all three of them would be quite a formidable opponent for Kellhus. We don't know how many are left of the Quya, but 10-15 Clerics (and no doubt, some of them would be stronger than he was) would be a hell of a speed-bump.
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