Bakker XXXVIII: Where The Posters Are Damned

[Sci-2]

Sci, all great questions. I think we speculated before that the Inverse Fire may have been an accidental invention.

Inchoroi 1: Hey this new quantum phase-shifting phallus ring is ready for testing.

Inchoroi 2: Sweet, let me put it on. Um, oh shit, this thing hurts. Ahhhh, fuck, OMG the agony. WHAT DO I SEE?

 

Yeah, I recall us all talking about the possibility some investigation of the quantum level of reality resulted in seeing the true nature of souls and the outside. Since it takes a rather advanced civilization to make soulless creatures the easiest way to discover the distinction between souls and soulless beings is probably going to occur too late for many species going with Bakker's ideas about evolution making mean fuckers like the Inchies.

 

The other possibility is it took something like a nuclear explosion or worse device to cause the amount of suffering necessary to cause a topos on a world where the veil between Inward and Outside is thicker than Earwa's.

 

 

 

This seems like a possibility that we've not fully explored. 

 

To wit:

 

It's pretty clear that there are gods and that the Hundred, specifically, exist. 

 

It's largely hinted that there's a "god" whether that's the transcendent, solitary god or the many-aspected god of the Inrithi. 

 

So could it actually be the case that the Intrithi and the Fanim have both observed shit correctly but may have just made different interpretations of it?

 

Well in some Hindu/Buddhist thought as well as Plotinus there's the idea of an underlying One that isn't exactly a deity but more a sort of Ground of Being that precedes gods. Then from there comes gods.

 

It's possible both Kellhus and the Cish have anthropomorphized the One into something resembling the idea of Yaweh or Krsna/Isvara, a Ground of Being with a distinct personality but this is not actually the case at all.

[themerchant]

Speaking of rape, while we always get a description of details of how women are raped and it is awful to read since it's generally from her perspective we never get a description of rape from the two alleged males raped. One we can only infer by the fact that both the rapist and victim actively refuse to think about it, all we know for certain is the victim was severely beaten. And the other has no evidence for the alleged rape other than the victim murdering the alleged rapist shortly after the event was not described, it is only ones imagination that fills in the severity and degree of the alleged sexual abuse in both instances. But Bakker doesn't leave it up to imagination for female victims, he forces you to confront all the horrific details and aftermath of the experience. I think its a good approach by the author. I wish he had applied the same standard to the conphas scene and I'm curious what his reasoning was to nor do so.

 

 

 

Could you give examples? “Rape” is a pretty flexible term, so I’m not sure which scenes spring to your mind. The most detailed ones I can think of are magically coerced intercourse with Consult avatars, which we get from both male and female perspectives. I may be wrong.

 

Was this ever answered? Or was it impossible to provide the examples? I went looking couldn't find anything beyond the above by HE?

[Castel]

 

Yeah, I recall us all talking about the possibility some investigation of the quantum level of reality resulted in seeing the true nature of souls and the outside. Since it takes a rather advanced civilization to make soulless creatures the easiest way to discover the distinction between souls and soulless beings is probably going to occur too late for many species going with Bakker's ideas about evolution making mean fuckers like the Inchies.

 

The other possibility is it took something like a nuclear explosion or worse device to cause the amount of suffering necessary to cause a topos on a world where the veil between Inward and Outside is thicker than Earwa's.

 

 

I thought it was less evolution and more transhumanism? Oh, you think it's cool to have  eidetic memory? Too late, you're rape aliens damned to spend an eternity in hell!

[Sci-2]

I thought it was less evolution and more transhumanism? Oh, you think it's cool to have  eidetic memory? Too late, you're rape aliens damned to spend an eternity in hell!

 

Not sure what you mean? Are you saying transhumanism is what allowed the Inchies to see their damnation?

[Ser Drizztos]

Transinchorism, surely.

[RobOsevens]

any word on the next book?

[Madness]

Radio silence remains.

[Larry of the Lawn]

 
 
 
Was this ever answered? Or was it impossible to provide the examples? I went looking couldn't find anything beyond the above by HE?

Off the top of my head, there's Xerius and the girl his mother brings him at the beginning of the Warrior Prophet, also Conohas and the Kianene slave girl and the mirror as he awaits news of Xerius's death in Thousandfold Thought. Serwe and Cnauir.

[Happy Ent]

Off the top of my head, there's Xerius and the girl his mother brings him at the beginning of the Warrior Prophet, also Conohas and the Kianene slave girl and the mirror as he awaits news of Xerius's death in Thousandfold Thought. Serwe and Cnauir.

 

I think you’re right in that there is at least one Serwë-POV where she endures Cnaiür. I can’t find it right now. (I think she’s looking at Kellhus during the scene, which is why it must be from her POV. I’m unsure about how many horrific details we get.)

 

Note the original question was about rapes that are seen from the perspective of the [i]victim[/i], and whether those instances are predominantly (or even exclusively) female. So the Xerius or Conphas scenes are not relevant.

 

But Bakker doesn't leave it up to imagination for female victims, he forces you to confront all the horrific details and aftermath of the experience.

 

Of course, I could be very mistaken about who’s POV they are related in. (And if I’m mistaken, please just point that out.) To be sure: Serwë absolutely qualifies, and deliberately so. What happens to her is terrible, in particular the psychological mechanism. Spectacular writing, and very unpleasant.

 

As I said upthread, off the top of my head I only remember two or three other instances that qualify as rape from the victim’s POV. In one of them, a woman is the victim. (Maybe I can think of four, it’s very difficult to decide which scenes are made explicit and which are only hinted at. The woman count remains at 1.) It should be easy to supply more examples, which would help us specify “imagination”, “horrific details”, and “rape.”

[Larry of the Lawn]

 
I think youre right in that there is at least one Serwë-POV where she endures Cnaiür. I cant find it right now. (I think shes looking at Kellhus during the scene, which is why it must be from her POV. Im unsure about how many horrific details we get.)
 
Note the original question was about rapes that are seen from the perspective of the victim, and whether those instances are predominantly (or even exclusively) female. So the Xerius or Conphas scenes are not relevant.
 

 
Of course, I could be very mistaken about whos POV they are related in. (And if Im mistaken, please just point that out.) To be sure: Serwë absolutely qualifies, and deliberately so. What happens to her is terrible, in particular the psychological mechanism. Spectacular writing, and very unpleasant.
 
As I said upthread, off the top of my head I only remember two or three other instances that qualify as rape from the victims POV. In one of them, a woman is the victim. (Maybe I can think of four, its very difficult to decide which scenes are made explicit and which are only hinted at. The woman count remains at 1.) It should be easy to supply more examples, which would help us specify imagination, horrific details, and rape.

Oh, gotcha. I misread the question.
Eta: I didn't realize you were looking for examples from the victim POV only.

[Sci-2]

Transinchorism, surely.

 

Actually IIRC someone speculated the Inchies were human males? I don't agree, but who knows with all the time-space questions the book raises.

[Kalbear]

We get esmes pov when she's raped by the inchoroi to get info.

[Happy Ent]

We get esmes pov when she's raped by the inchoroi to get info.

Exactly. That’s the one example I was talking about. It is mirrored by Kellhus getting raped by another avatar of what we believe to be the same villain two books later.

[Kalbear]

We also get Mimara's POV on rapes and near rapes at least 3 times I can think of. 

[Callan S.]

 

Actually IIRC someone speculated the Inchies were human males?

I did. (spoiler) I think the books are actually sci-fi (/spoiler, if my guess as to the genre of the books counts as a spoiler - but it might be!)

 

I'm assuming the whole anti natalism of the inchies came after the discovery of the inverse fire. But it may have been there before (though perhaps not as prominantly).

 

It's cool how their antinatalism lends to their evilness...when it's really (I think) an example of a rare compassion on their part. They don't want any more babies to end up in hell. Secret good guy quality to the inchies.

[themerchant]

We also get Mimara's POV on rapes and near rapes at least 3 times I can think of. 

 

Once when following Akka (TJE), once when they force-feed Akka (WLW), and the last one at the end of the White-Luck warrior.

 

within the context of "But Bakker doesn't leave it up to imagination for female victims, he forces you to confront all the horrific details and aftermath of the experience."

 

 

I need to reread those scenes, i think the first one is from Akka's perspective though perhaps. Hard to tell with no examples.

[sologdin]

Transinchorism, surely.

am liking this, though it may be a pleonasm, if we give inchoroi a latin etymology (as opposed to the greek otherwise present in the series):

Latin inchoātus, variant of incohātus past participle of incohāre to begin, start work on, perhaps equivalent to in- -in- 2+ coh (um) hollow of a yoke into which the pole is fitted + -ātus -ate1

'start work on' is the key concept that survives in the modern definition:

adjective


1. not yet completed or fully developed; rudimentary.


2. just begun; incipient.


3. not organized; lacking order:

so, that's the point of being transhuman--that the corpus and/or the animus are merely construction materials. to be transinchoroi, though--that's just friggin' gross.

(ETA: taking that latin etymology to an extreme of logical consistency means that humans are 'breathers' and non-men are 'dogs.')

[Ser Drizztos]

am liking this, though it may be a pleonasm, if we give inchoroi a latin etymology (as opposed to the greek otherwise present in the series):


'start work on' is the key concept that survives in the modern definition: so, that's the point of being transhuman--that the corpus and/or the animus are merely construction materials. to be transinchoroi, though--that's just friggin' gross.

(ETA: taking that latin etymology to an extreme of logical consistency means that humans are 'breathers' and non-men are 'dogs.')

I had a more carnal etymology in mind:

 

 

From Old Portuguese inchar, from Latin inflāre, present active infinitive of inflō.

inchar ‎(first-person singular present indicative incho.)

 

1. to swell (become bigger)

 

Basically, Inchoroi = Swollen Members

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

am liking this, though it may be a pleonasm, if we give inchoroi a latin etymology (as opposed to the greek otherwise present in the series):


'start work on' is the key concept that survives in the modern definition: so, that's the point of being transhuman--that the corpus and/or the animus are merely construction materials. to be transinchoroi, though--that's just friggin' gross.

(ETA: taking that latin etymology to an extreme of logical consistency means that humans are 'breathers' and non-men are 'dogs.')

If the Inchoroi are inchoate, perhaps they are the pure becoming the Non-Men seek (or should that be 'becumming'?)

[Callan S.]

Maybe just a joke, but nonmen don't seek pure becoming (AFAICT) - it's just a thing they are ground down to as their memories dwindle.