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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.6

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  • The A+J = T theory puts forth the claim that Tyrion Lannister is the illegitimate son of Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

     

    Note: Individually, none of these clues prove that Tyrion's biological father is Aerys. However, when taken together, these clues provide a strong argument in favor of the theory.

     

    Personal Note:  I want to express my thanks to Consigliere who lived up to his name fabulously by editing, reformatting and enhancing my prior OP in the manner presented below (which is a tremendous improvement both in terms of the substance and presentation of the OP).

     

    Clues in favor of A+J = T:

     

    - Pale blond hair (sounds closer to Targ color than Lannister color) with patches of black hair (the Black hair could be from Betha Blackwood, the grandmother of Aerys, which might be even more compelling evidence given that there is no known source of black hair on the Lannister side).

     

    - Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

     

    - Fascination with fire (pretended it was dragonfire) and dragons / dreamed of dragons / asked his uncle for a dragon as a gift / admired the dragon skull (while possibly others had some of these traits, readers hear few if any other examples).

     

    - Barristan admits to Dany that Aerys lusted after Joanna, is the woman he would have wanted to marry and took inappropriate liberties during the bedding ceremony at her wedding (not an indication of sex at that time—just that Aerys wanted Joanna).

     

    - Tywin refuses to let Tyrion inherit CR even though Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the King’s Guard and tells Tyrion, “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine” (perhaps actually a confession that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might not be Tywin’s true-born son or perhaps really just a clue from the author).

     

    - Tywin on deathbed telling Tyrion, “You are no son of mine” (either a literal confession or a clue provided by the author).

     

    - Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

     

    - References to Tyrion having cast a shadow that made him as tall as a king.

     

    - Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

     

    - Uses the alias of Hugor Hill (Hugor of the Hill was the name of the first king of the Andals and Hill are bastards from the Westerlands—if Aerys were known to be Tyrion’s father, Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill—and use of the name Hugor Hill could be interpreted to mean that Tyrion is a "royal bastard").

     

    - Tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.” (Perhaps a message from the author that this dwarf really is a bastard).

     

    - Tells Jon, “Most of my kin are bastards,” … “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” (Perhaps a hint from the author that Tyrion and Jon are kin).

     

    - Dreams he has two heads and kills Lannisters, while one head is laughing and one is crying (is the laughing head Targ and the crying head Lannister?).

     

    - Joanna was rumored to have had an affair with Aerys and was dismissed from court by Rhaella because Aerys was making Joanna a whore (suggesting that an affair occurred between Joanna and Aerys while Aerys and Rhaella were married and might have continued even after Joanna married Tywin).

     

    - Joanna visited KL in 272 AC for the Anniversary Tourney and Aerys made a humiliating remark about her breasts. Tywin attempted to resign the next day, and Aerys refused to accept the resignation (this timeline makes the birth of Tyrion in 273 AC consistent with Aerys as the biological father, and Tywin’s desire to resign could be more easily explained as a reaction to an insult regarding her breasts).

     

    - Aerys seems to lose respect for Tywin after the period of time during which Aerys would have impregnated Joanna with Tyrion.

     

    - The fifth book is titled A Dance with Dragons. However the book is not really focused much on the actual dragons or a battle between Targs or Targ descendants (as the Dance OF Dragons was). So why the title? Had GRRM simply decided that because he had picked the title years ago when he thought different material would be covered in that book he nevertheless kept the title? No. The better theory is that the title is a clue. Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) focused on most all of the characters other than Dany, Jon and Tyrion (who are essentially absent from that book) but A Dance with Dragons primarily focuses on these three characters. So the title of book 5 could be an additional clue pointing towards Tyrion being a dragon.

     

    Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard: 

    1. Distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark).
    2. Mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye).
    3. Capable rulers but hated nonetheless.
    4. Kinslayers.

    Similarities amongst Tyrion, Jon (assuming R+L=J) and Dany:

    1. Mothers died as a result of their births.
    2. Fathers / presumed fathers (Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin and Ned) killed.
    3. Lived in the shadow of older brothers.
    4. Outcasts.
    5. Unexpectedly rose to leadership roles.
    6. Lovers died arguably by their own hand (Shae / Ygritte / Drogo).
    7. Attempted assassinations.
    8. Third child of one of his or her parents (Joanna / Rhaegar / Rhaella).
    9. Each killed someone in a position of power (Tywin / Janos / Kraznys).
    10. Each has been betrayed (Shae / Bowen / MMD).
    11. Each used the help of "raiding" warrior tribes in battle (Mountain Clan / Wildings / Dothraki)

     

     

    Frequently Asked Questions / Counter Arguments:

    [spoiler]

    1. Would the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion be undermined?

     

    This is entirely subjective. Some readers will consider the relationship ruined and others enhanced by finding out that Tywin rightfully suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Assuming the author was planning such a development in the narrative, the author had sufficient leeway to write the relationship as he did, particularly given that any reveal of Tyrion’s birth father will occur only after Tywin is dead. GRRM might not consider a revelation after Tywin’s death to have any real effect on the import their interactions (or might even consider them more interesting in light of the revelation).

     

    2. If Aerys raped Joanna, wouldn’t she have taken moon tea instead of carrying the pregnancy to term?

         

    The evidence is somewhat ambiguous whether Joanna went to Aerys willingly, so the encounter might not have been rape. Even if Aerys raped Joanna, Joanna might have had her own reasons to carry the fetus to term (we have been told little about Joanna or her personality or values). Further, moon tea might not be 100% effective, so she might have taken moon tea, which failed. Other forms of terminating a pregnancy in Westeros might require more extreme measure that Joanna either might not have been able to obtain or might not have wanted to take the risks involved. In addition, Joanna might have thought it was most likely Tywin’s child and did not want to terminate the pregnancy under these circumstances. Bottom line, we don’t know enough about Joanna or the circumstances of the pregnancy to conclude that Joanna definitely would have terminated the pregnancy.

     

    3. Genna says to Jaime, “I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” Does this imply that Tyrion is Tywin's biological son?

     

    Not necessarily. Genna was talking personality and not necessarily inherited traits. Tyrion wanted Tywin’s approval and thus would try to be like Tywin. Tywin’s refusal to speak to his sister for one-half a year indicates that Tywin might have been upset because he was reminded that the son most like himself was the one that might not even really be Tywin’s biological son.

     

    4. Tommen’s hair also is pale blond, and he certainly is 100% Lannister.

     

    As he grew older, Tommen’s hair became golden blond, while Tyrion’s hair remained pale blond as an adult.

     

    5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

     

    No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

     

    - A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

     

    - If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

     

    - His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

     

    - His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

     

    - His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

     

    - His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

     

    6. GRRM inserted these “clues” intentionally to serve as red herrings.

     

    A typical definition of red herring is “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.” Usually, such a misleading or distracting clue is intended to prevent the actual solution to a mystery from being too obvious to the readers (classically, for example, by introducing multiple suspects in a murder to keep the identity of the real murderer from being discovered too easily). Further, a red herring often is explicitly stated as a potential theory by a character. If A+J=T is a red herring, the true “mystery” from which the theory serves as a distraction is unclear. Certainly, no other mystery that has been explicitly introduced in the series is obscured by the introduction of these clues regarding A+J=T. In addition, no character explicitly contemplates that Aerys might be the biological father to Tyrion. Thus, the clues for A+J=T do not satisfy any of these criteria for a typical red herring.

     

    7. Tywin would not give Tyrion a classic Lannister name if there were doubt as to paternity.

     

    Tyrion probably is named after Tyrion the Tormentor, a Lannister king who enjoyed making women bleed. Tywin might have found the reference irresistible given the nature of Joanna’s death (which likely involved quite a bit of blood after Tyrion’s birth).

     

    8. What about the SSM stating that Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned; suggesting that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father?

     

    This analysis reads too much into an SSM. It is not possible to know for sure what was going through GRRM’s mind when answering the question. This sentence was not part of a carefully crafted piece of literature but a quick written answer to questions (notice the grammatical error, using “like” rather than “likely” shows that it was likely written quickly). R+L=J is a more widely circulated theory than A+J=T, so GRRM might have thought the need to refer to Ned by name for clarity sake, but did not think the same care was needed for the reference to Tywin. Bottom line, the SSM never explicitly states that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father, just references Tywin as Tyrion’s father, which Tywin was regardless of the identity of Tyrion’s birth father. Because GRRM is careful to refer to Ned as “Ned” rather than “Jon’s father” does not guarantee that GRRM would take the same care with Tywin, particularly if GRRM wanted the mystery of A+J=T to remain hidden to those readers who uncovered R+L=J.

     

    [/spoiler]

    Additional Analysis:

    [/spoiler]

    Links to Previous Threads:

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Just wanted to say that I think you've done a great job of compiling all the evidence for this theory, and to lobby for it to be pinned right up there with R+L=J v.183260498250

 

:thumbsup:

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GH--

 

There will be no more pinned threads -- and I am fine with that. I don't really want this pinned (as that was get too much frivolous traffic -- I prefer to have real discussions here). But thanks for the compliment. Consigliere and I worked hard to make it as thorough and convincing and useful as possible.  :cheers:

 

Attitude--

 

No, one sentence did not suddenly make all the other clue become clues. But I am a skeptic at heart -- so I start to doubt myself from time to time. Before WOIAF, the amazing amount of negative response to this theory got me nervous and I started to think maybe we were just seeing something out of nothing. I was overly critical of my own thinking in going in that direction, but that is my nature. But when WOIAF came out, and GRRM went out of his way to give fairly overt AJT clues, I lost much of my skepticism and became more confident in the conclusion of AJT.

 

I think that the truth will come out definitively and here is why. I think that the reason there needed to be 2 hidden Targs of great importance is because the dragon has 3 heads. Three main characters were going to be the war generals -- the saviors -- the dragons. But only 1 of them would be known as a dragon -- Dany. So the other two needed to be knows as something else -- one from each of the other important families in the series, the Starks (Jon Snow) and the Lannisters (Tyrion Lannister). Both would be revealed to have Targ blood and complete the 3 heads. So the existence of RLJ does not diminish the likelihood of AJT -- it explains the real need for AJT. There needs to be a third head and no one else fits. GRRM is not going to hide that these are the 3 heads and are Targs -- it will be central to the endgame.

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Need like another 100 threads to get pinned. Whereas RLJ seems like the central "mystery" of the novel in conjunction with TPTWP, AJT is like it's little bastard relation.

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"I know," Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

 

He favored Jon with a rueful grin. " Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear a cross the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

 

Jon is the king here. The foreshadowing belongs to Jon. It has nothing to do with Tyrion.

 

Tyrion is the shadow as tall as a king. That could be taken as Tyrion being the King's shadow... A foreshadowing to him being King's Hand, perhaps? Either during Clash, or possibly, in parts of the story yet to come.

 

It is Tyrion's shadow making him tall, I don't see how it points to Jon being King..

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Tyrion is the shadow as tall as a king. That could be taken as Tyrion being the King's shadow... A foreshadowing to him being King's Hand, perhaps? Either during Clash, or possibly, in parts of the story yet to come.

 

It is Tyrion's shadow making him tall, I don't see how it points to Jon being King..

 

Because first Jon was mentioned as a tall presence compared to Tyrion and then Tyrion's elongated shadow was compared to a king. Hence, Jon is the king in that room. The point of this is to refer to Jon as a king/prince like George did many times starting with AGoT.

 

e.g. "kings hiding under snow. Snow!" or "bastards are not allowed to damage the young princes."

 

Therefore, I don't think that quote has anything to do with Tyrion.

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  • - Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

     

I've raised an objection against this "clue" from the OP before.. Euron Greyjoy has two different colored eyes as well, so Shiera is not the 'only other example'..
 
The counter argument currently stated in the OP is this
 
 
 

 

5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

 

No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

 

- A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

 

- If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

 

- His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

 

- His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

 

- His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

 

- His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

 


Where is the proof that Euron was not born with two different colored eyes? A crow is black, and having a black eye is what made him the Crow's Eye... Any trauma Euron has gotten to his eye is, at the moment, complete speculation.. Why try to use it as proof that Euron was not born with mismatched eyes, if there is no hint that Euron ever received a trauma to the eye?
 
 
 
ETA:
 
 

 

  • - References to Tyrion having cast the shadow of a king.

 

Tyrion is not said to cast the shadow of a king. He casted a shadow which made him look as tall as a king. There's a slight difference. Perhaps you can re-word this?

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Because first Jon was mentioned as a tall presence compared to Tyrion and then Tyrion's elongated shadow was compared to a king. Hence, Jon is the king in that room. The point of this is to refer to Jon as a king/prince like George did many times starting with AGoT.

 

e.g. "kings hiding under snow. Snow!" or "bastards are not allowed to damage the young princes."

 

Therefore, I don't think that quote has anything to do with Tyrion.

But it's Tyrion's shadow..? Not Jon's.  And Tyrion is associated with casting a large shadow at multiple occasions. Why wouldn't he be associated with the large shadow he himself casts here as well?

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I've raised an objection against this "clue" from the OP before.. Euron Greyjoy has two different colored eyes as well, so Shiera is not the 'only other example'..
 
The counter argument currently stated in the OP is this
 
 
 


Where is the proof that Euron was not born with two different colored eyes? A crow is black, and having a black eye is what made him the Crow's Eye... Any trauma Euron has gotten to his eye is, at the moment, complete speculation.. Why try to use it as proof that Euron was not born with mismatched eyes, if there is no hint that Euron ever received a trauma to the eye?
 
 
 
ETA:
 
 

 

Tyrion is not said to cast the shadow of a king. He casted a shadow which made him look as tall as a king. There's a slight difference. Perhaps you can re-word this?

Regarding Euron -- I think that the OP makes clear why we think the mismatched eye is an allusion to another Targ bastard and why there is no reason to assume Euron was born with mismatched eyes. Each person can choose to agree or disagree -- the evidence is outlined in the OP, including the counter that your reference. 

 

I will edit to correct the wording of the shadow quote.

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But it's Tyrion's shadow..? Not Jon's.  And Tyrion is associated with casting a large shadow at multiple occasions. Why wouldn't he be associated with the large shadow he himself casts here as well?

 

Tyrion casting a large shadow implies his important role in the saga. But the comparison in the quote we are discussing does not seem to have such a context compared to other cases IMO.

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Another parallel I've noticed between Tyrion and Dany (at least if this theory is true) is that they're both children conceived by rape.  This is potentially true of Jon as well, or Jon's conception could end up being a contrast to the other two.

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Attitude--
 
No, one sentence did not suddenly make all the other clue become clues. But I am a skeptic at heart -- so I start to doubt myself from time to time. Before WOIAF, the amazing amount of negative response to this theory got me nervous and I started to think maybe we were just seeing something out of nothing. I was overly critical of my own thinking in going in that direction, but that is my nature. But when WOIAF came out, and GRRM went out of his way to give fairly overt AJT clues, I lost much of my skepticism and became more confident in the conclusion of AJT.
 
I think that the truth will come out definitively and here is why. I think that the reason there needed to be 2 hidden Targs of great importance is because the dragon has 3 heads. Three main characters were going to be the war generals -- the saviors -- the dragons. But only 1 of them would be known as a dragon -- Dany. So the other two needed to be knows as something else -- one from each of the other important families in the series, the Starks (Jon Snow) and the Lannisters (Tyrion Lannister). Both would be revealed to have Targ blood and complete the 3 heads. So the existence of RLJ does not diminish the likelihood of AJT -- it explains the real need for AJT. There needs to be a third head and no one else fits. GRRM is not going to hide that these are the 3 heads and are Targs -- it will be central to the endgame.


I barely knew this theory before I read woiaf and I have to agree on the point that it contains several clues considering this topic.

I have to say that your explanation sounds plausible (and as I said since the beginning, I don't say A+J=T is false. I just don't believe it. Both R+L=J and A+J=T can be true and one does not necessarily exlude another. However, I don't think that if one is true (and in that case I definitly chose R+L=J) the other one will not. This idea has no evidence whatsoever, but I just don't feel like it would fit if both were true. (So if it is, I hope GRRM will bring it in an awesome way)

To keep comparing it to Jon, the biggest point for my in believing that theorie (a lot more) is because pretty much everything fits. Ned never calling Jon his son, but only his blood totally fits the picture of a honorable Ned Stark AND fits the theorie. I can't imagine a different idea besides Jon NOT being Neds kid (this doesn't necessarily backup R+L=J, but I hope you get the idea). Tywin saying: you are no son of mine on his deathbed, can also be explained for him just being very furious at his son who just killed him (that actually makes a lot of sense). I can give more of these examples, but I hope you get the point: As I see it, for many R+L=J clues only that awnser fits the profile, and I don't feel the same way about the A+J=T theory.

I also don't think that all heads have to be 'targs'. I can even see the entire prophecy about Dany be a red herring and Jon on it's own be tPtwP / AAR. However I have no support for any of these possibilities, but I am very interested in all the different ideas.

A little side note: I tend to be very (maybe even too) critical and skeptical. This makes me tend to find a way out nomatter what. It will be hard to convince me of a theory at all, and probably impossible to turn me for a 100%, because as long as GRRM hasn't confirmed anything, everything is possible (not logical, but possible)

However, keep up the good work because I love to read theories that are thoroughly researched. Me trying to take down a theorie doesn't mean I don't believe it or find it impossible, it's just in my nature to be like that. (The side note is big...)

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Another parallel I've noticed between Tyrion and Dany (at least if this theory is true) is that they're both children conceived by rape.  This is potentially true of Jon as well, or Jon's conception could end up being a contrast to the other two.

Since when is Tyrion conceived by rape?

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Need like another 100 threads to get pinned. Whereas RLJ seems like the central "mystery" of the novel in conjunction with TPTWP, AJT is like it's little bastard relation.

 

It would be good in my opinion if there were a page of pinned threads. But maybe then newcomers would miss them more easily. 

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Since when is Tyrion conceived by rape?

 

Actually based on the world book, it sounds like something as raping or by force. 

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Well, I can see this thing twofold - Joanna may have come willingly to Aerys (then it was reconciliation sex ) or he raped her, then Tyrion may actually be line with Dany and Jon to be part of savior trinity whose members were all born of rape and killed their mothers at their birth. Tyrion gets the most blame for that, but Jon and Dany killed their mothers, too.

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Well, I can see this thing twofold - Joanna may have come willingly to Aerys (then it was reconciliation sex ) or he raped her, then Tyrion may actually be line with Dany and Jon to be part of savior trinity whose members were all born of rape and killed their children at their birth. Tyrion gets the most blame for that, but Jon and Dany killed their mothers, too.

 

The way it's described in WOIAF made it seem like a rape to me.  Not only does it match his general temperament, but the "rumors" about Aerys and Joanna make it seem like Aerys was a lover scorned and Joanna had cut ties with him.  The humiliation scene was the first time they'd seen each other in over five years (after carrying on an affair that lasted nearly a decade, from the time Aerys was 15 years old), and Aerys wanted to hurt her.   

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